Mixerman gone to the dark side. Slippy is next.

[copperx]

So ... when are we going to see this headline?

I'll give it 5 years at most :D

[Bob Olhsson]

The sad part is that Mixerman and many of the rest of us are being forced to own a studio. This is not exactly a dream come true for many of us. Being in your own studio isn't nearly as creative or inspiring a head space as being in a commercial room.

Make no mistake about the fact that working with the meter running and no excuses about the gear enhances everybody's performance. It turns a session into a real occasion and most of us will generally rise to an occasion. Occasions are a whole lot of what creates great music and great music is the whole point of recording.

[esteso]

Yes, unfortunately only the elite got to experience that commercial studio feeling in the good old days. Now, in my very nice home studio I can pretty much do what I want, when I want.

Priceless.

[Goes211]

in my very nice home studio I can pretty much do what I want, when I want.

Priceless.

The question is : do you ?
:Wink:

It's not because you own a pen that you should write a book.

[Bob Olhsson]

I'm not sure that demonstrating that you were talented enough to attract the investment necessary to rent a great room ever constituted being elite.

Many of popular music's greatest icons wouldn't have had the means necessary to build one of today's home studios and pursue a music career. To me, taking up a music career has become far more elitist than it was when I began in the mid '60s.

[rockdart]

Could it be a different and non-typical leveling of the playing field (where the tech advances bring up the little guy normally, but now we're seeing the 'big guy' having to adapt)? Not just for MM of course - but the whole industry as a whole, to a point where the old business model gets adjusted only for paying less due to 'less operating cost'?

just food for thought...

[Bob Olhsson]

Except that the operating cost of being an artist is way way, more. The "playing field" for artists is the least level that it has ever been in my lifetime.

Studio fees were never a significant expense compared to the rest of being an artist. Sure, it's lots cheaper to fill one's garage with CDs that it used to be but what's the point in that? The cost of getting them out into the world has gone right through the roof. Reducing the quality of performances only makes all of this worse. Only the cost of basic competence has come down. Excellence remains as difficult to achieve as it ever was.

[Mixerpuppet]

I think Slippy is a differnt case. MM is a freelancer who spent a good portion of his career taking his client wherever the clients budget allowed him to. For most major labels it's a matter of which facility with the right gear and "room" to fit the needs of the project.

Slippy "owns" the type of place MM and one of his clients might have gone to...

Im in my 4th home studio thingie-a-majig...

And I can tell that after a few months of each one being "done" that there is this lack of "atmospheric dynamics" that you get walking into and recording in a world class facility... It's like that new car smell....

Plus it costs more money than you usually make if you can't control your spending...

I never had to mow the lawn at Momentum!!!

[Mixerman]

Hey, I'm not attempting to move away from analog mixing. I'm merely trying to prevent cutting myself off from certain work that I wish to take on.

I feel, that with the proper setup (oh, and it's proper), I can provide mixes that will blow away the competition for a similar price point.

That's a good thing for everyone, except, of course, for the competition with the similar price point.

The purpose of this move, is to fill in my schedule. Not take it over. If I like a song or an album, and the budget isn't big enough to work in an analog studio, now I won't have to turn it down outright. I can consider it based purely on whether it is a project I wish to be a part of, or have time to do.

It's bad enough labels try to pigeonhole us, do we need to pigeonhole ourselves too?

Mixerman

[otek]

I suppose a small irony here (to the original poster) is that Slippy has been using Logic for considerably longer than Mixerman. :D

[esteso]

I'm not sure that demonstrating that you were talented enough to attract the investment necessary to rent a great room ever constituted being elite.


Ah, yes..... but who decides? and why did they decide that? was it about talent or saleability?

[esteso]

The question is : do you ?
:Wink:

Good question, but......

Yes.

It has enabled me to write music for film. Produce "marginal" artists. Experiment. Hone my recording chops both as an artist and an "engineer"

:Coolio:

[otek]

Now, in my very nice home studio I can pretty much do what I want, when I want.

The question is : do you ?
:Wink:

Yes.

I think the question that Goes211 alluded to was, if better music is ultimately the end result of this trend.

And I mean that in a general sense, not necessarily about you personally.

I think there's something to what Bob said: being on the clock in a great room often tends to bring out the best in both musicians and engineers. Endlessly polishing an arrangement or a mix in a home studio often leads to taking an idea part its prime moment.


otek

[dwoz]

Ah, yes..... but who decides? and why did they decide that? was it about talent or saleability?



For some reason, I'm not getting this AT ALL. There was NOTHING elitist about big major recording studios...if you walked in the door with a checkbook and wrote a check, (and it didn't bounce), then you could use the place.

Simple. Coin 'O the realm does all the talkin'. The studio doesn't care about what your talent is, or even if you elect to simply take a quiet nap instead of recording...you pays your fare, you gets your room.


Now, that doesn't mean I don't think a home studio is a good idea. But you've entirely missed the point, that on a "big studio" recording date, there are/were a LOT of people focussing a LOT of energy(and cash, just a different form of energy) on a single thing...recording a song. When you focus that much juice on one spot, it glows white-hot.

and, good things come to the surface when stuff gets white-hot.

Also, when things get that hot, there's no place for shadows. No place to hide. Any mundane-ness, any suck, any triteness, any half-assedness, has no place to hide, its right there in the bright light. And when they're in the light, its easy to pick them critters off.

The only point that Bob was trying to make, is that in your home studio, its kinda somewhat harder to bring the Btu's. Doesn't mean it can't happen...but one person achieving the same intensity that 8 can muster...rare.

dwoz

[Bob Olhsson]

Ah, yes..... but who decides? and why did they decide that? was it about talent or saleability? Neither, it has always been about "draw," i.e. how many people will line up to see a gig. In most cases private backers have been the earliest investors. There is often no better sign of something not being commercial than when there have been no offers of investment.

I learned early-on to always run the other way whenever I hear the word "potential" applied to a performer.

[esteso]

Neither, it has always been about "draw," i.e. how many people will line up to see a gig. In most cases private backers have been the earliest investors. There is often no better sign of something not being commercial than when there have been no offers of investment.

Well that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you're doing something a little avant garde or experimental or whatever, maybe you're not commercial, so not worthy of consideration. So that's pretty much it. Not so today. I can decide what's worth pursuing and pursue it. End of story.

[esteso]

For some reason, I'm not getting this AT ALL. There was NOTHING elitist about big major recording studios...if you walked in the door with a checkbook and wrote a check, (and it didn't bounce), then you could use the place.

Simple. Coin 'O the realm does all the talkin'.
dwoz

Tha's what I meant by elitist. At $100 to $250 per hour I'd say that's pretty elite. Sure you could find something a little cheaper but the quality starts to get a little questionable. With that kind of money involved and on a working musician's salary it's pretty much out of the question.

So, you need investors. Why do investors invest? Because they can see there's a good possibility of a return on their investment. i.e. You're commercially viable.

So if you're not commercially viable what do you do? Roll over and play dead? Or buy your way into your own home studio? And let's not forget the kind of committment it takes to really take this thing to another level. It takes WAY more than money to keep it all together. That's my idea of separating the wheat from the chaff.

[esteso]

Oh.... and I absolutely agree that it is difficult to come up with something white hot in the studio. The sense of occasion I've felt walking into a room packed with top flight musicians is something I will never forget. The event-ness of it all is very difficult to duplicate in a home studio.

Maybe impossible.

I am not arguing any of this. I'm saying that the old paradigm, for me personally, didn't work.

Now it's working.

[gitarted]

This thread seems to be going in two different directions.

I understand both sides.
owning a home studio gives you the means to still work with the artists that can't afford the big rooms, and a quality recording can now be done ITB in a home studio.

and for the person building the home studio, the investment to get it off the ground is a fraction of the cost of building a large analog room.

this ends up being a good thing for both artist and studio owner.

on the other hand...because it is now much more affordable to own a home based studio, I see the overall quality of musicianship droping.

Is it because not as much money is on the line? performance is taken for granted?...like when you pay big money your ass is on the line to go in and nail your parts, I think the artist is more likely to have his chops together when they walk in the door.

It really shouldn't be any different when the artist hires a world class mixer/engineer. regardless of it's being done in an expensive analog room or a home studio.

The other side of the coin, because it is now affordable to own a studio in your home, the musician now has a means to use the studio as a writing tool, and because you can roll out of bed and start recording, I think technical skills in both engineering and musicianship have taken a back seat.

When a musician has to work his ass off, to save up the bux to go to a pro studio, and pay a pro engineer I think I goes without saying that he is going to walk in the door much more prepared to nail his parts.

D

[Slipperman]

Hey.

Just happy to be here.

SM.

[seagate]

Hey.

Just happy to be here.

SM.

And we're happy to have you...

:lol:

[otek]

Hey.

Just happy to be here.

SM.



Uh.... who are you?

[otek]

For some reason, I'm not getting this AT ALL. There was NOTHING elitist about big major recording studios...if you walked in the door with a checkbook and wrote a check, (and it didn't bounce), then you could use the place.

Tha's what I meant by elitist. At $100 to $250 per hour I'd say that's pretty elite.


Esteso,

I think what rubbed me the wrong way about this argument was the same thing that got to dwoz.


e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (ĭ-lē'tĭz'əm, ā-lē'-)
n.

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
3. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


I believe we were both reacting to the semantics here, and dwoz tried to reflect that in his post.


otek

[Mixerpuppet]

Most of the "Elitism" I've ran into was because of an egotisical musician who built a studio and that Elitism just became a part of that particular studio. It's not a global issue (IMO) Snobs exist everywhere in society.

It doesn't take too long in the album cover thread to realize Dwoz's or Otek or Bobs or.....contention about elitism is pretty well grounded. It's all about the money from the big studio to the little folk singer with the X-box. People will only do what they can afford to do within reason.

Bob Olhsson mentioned investment. From a business sense you need a return on your investment so you invest carefully to maximize your profit.

But the studio business is not the same business as a record company.

Studio's from a business perspective just need cashflow to keep the door open, that means having Elton John one week and tone deaf Aunt Ellie and her dancing midget wanting to do some backmasking and hates autotune the next week. You hope that Elton sends some friends over rather than Aunt Ellie for sanity reasons only.

There is one thing that comes to mind is that the home studios and cheaper gear allow alot of the less skilled people to make thier own vanity records without having to spend huge quantities of money on distribution and advertising usually required for national acts. I'm not inferring anyone here is less skilled than myself.

The benefit I get from having a studio at home is being able to noodle myself silly without bothering/boring other people. But it's also way more work than if I just saved up and walked into a studio and dropped the tracks and walked out with a CD.

Home recording requires a divided attention to many tasks where "big facility" recording requires focused attention to a limited task.

Sadly, It dawned on me that someday Slippy might have to go back to the darkside from whence he came. In the last 10 years there have been alot of great facilities that just couldn't keep the doors open due to rising property prices, taxes and record companies not making as much money to pay for the rates required to keep the loan for the Neve floating.

[esteso]

I believe we were both reacting to the semantics here, and dwoz tried to reflect that in his post.

Quote:
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (?-l?'t?z'?m, ?-l?'-)
n.

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
3. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

otek

Hey guys, I'm not arguing at all but I am enjoying this little discussion. It seems to me that the whole arcane system of the music business, by all three of your dictionary definitions, is indeed elitist. But maybe we are talking about two different things.... studios as opposed to record companies. Still, they were all in bed together and a lot of money was made.

Regardless of the semantics, the fact is, it stopped working and now we have to deal with a new paradigm. It's good and it's bad all at the same time. For me it works better. I could not do what I do under the old system. That's it really.

[Mixerman]

Hey guys, I'm not arguing at all but I am enjoying this little discussion. It seems to me that the whole arcane system of the music business, by all three of your dictionary definitions, is indeed elitist. But maybe we are talking about two different things.... studios as opposed to record companies. Still, they were all in bed together and a lot of money was made.

Regardless of the semantics, the fact is, it stopped working and now we have to deal with a new paradigm. It's good and it's bad all at the same time. For me it works better. I could not do what I do under the old system. That's it really.

Those large studios that charge $1500-$2000 per day are fortunate when they turn a profit. They often have trouble collecting their money for the Majors, sometimes waiting more than 120 days for payments to trickle in. I've even seen studios fall behind on payroll. The Majors on the other hand have made billions of dollars in profits. Studios aren't in bed with Major Labels. Far from it.

Mixerman

[chrisj]

Exactly. Studios aren't how you make money. Studios are how you enjoy your life WHILE you make money. There's always going to be pressure from trust fund midlevel studios, all sorts of situations where someone wants to LOOK incredibly impressive so they're blowing a lot of money, more than they're really taking in. That's when the trouble meeting payroll happens.

Any local studios are gonna hate ME, because I'm putting together pretty respectable facilities but I own my house- no lease- and I don't really make money with studio things, I am a software guy and that subsidizes my studio fantasies. Competing against someone who doesn't have to pay their bills directly from THAT income every month is a world of hurt for the competitor. My mastering work is down to $30 a song because I'm now asking $20 a revision, so anyone capable of liking what I do without crawling up my ass looking for further adjustments has a screamin-hot deal on their hands, and I couldn't begin to offer that if I had to pay the mortgage out of that work alone.

However.

Once I dreamed of being a rock-n-roll guitar player (or bass, or drums- not picky, love all that stuff) and you know, when I play something, it's still as much 'chrisj' as it ever was, but I ain't ever going to be a hotshot on an instrument the way I keep having to stay on top of the plugins, DAW troubleshooting, hardware interfacing, ergonomics, interior freakin' design, maintenance...

I'm getting professionals to handle my accounting, because that shit wipes me out, can't even work when I'm drowned in paperwork. But I can't get professionals to set up my studio for me, to decide what gear is really necessary and what is just wankery, to get things working. It's endless fussing with audio shit. Thank God I love that because otherwise the quality of my life wouldn't be good ;)

What I was told on a seminar when I was still a kid STILL holds true even now. Don't buy a studio. Practice and write your songs and play out, don't buy recording equipment. In this day and age- encourage your keyboard player or somebody to buy recording equipment, or work with a guy who isn't really a musician but IS musical. I think that describes me okay- I'm various sorts of crap, but musical, musician, and I'm happy with that even though it means it's rare anyone even says something NICE about my own music, much less pays me for it :D

[Brendo]

arent most studios funded through some second business?

[Bob Olhsson]

Despite what the Banjo Center folks and gear pimps tell us, a pile of gear is NOT a studio.

A studio is a performance space. It's all about making performing easy and the capture of a priceless performance bulletproof.

At the moment recordings one can make in one's bedroom are fashionable but it's a huge mistake to assume this is a trend rather than just a fad.

[Cheech]

At the moment recordings one can make in one's bedroom are fashionable but it's a huge mistake to assume this is a trend rather than just a fad.

Bob, I hope you are right about this, because even though I enjoy, honing my skills on my humble set up in my humble room I still really would like the opportunity to work in a commercial/professional facility
1. To continue learning, and
2. For the experience factor.

To be able to experience that, and work under a professional Producer/mixer/AE would be pretty flippin sweet.

Ok.....back to dreaming...uhh I mean honing. :lol:

[Cosmic Pig]

Good music still rises. You won't get a backer if you don't play out.

You can't be a player and an engineer.

This thing about the white hot event in a big studio I think is crap for most players. less pressure equals more inspiration. Some players dig the big event but I think most don't. Mind you, if you've done your homework in a preproduction studio maybe the big event works. Dunno never been there.

And everything Bob said. I love Bob. If I was a chick I'd blow him. Assuming of course I could catch him cuz I'd make one fuck ugly girl. Probably a cross between Rosanne and Courtney Love... except uglier. I'd chase him around the control room all slow motion bouncy bouncy while he ran screaming.

Lucky for Bob I'm not a chick.

Oh how the reply button taunts me...

Cos.

[Tim Halligan]

And everything Bob said. I love Bob. If I was a chick I'd blow him. Assuming of course I could catch him cuz I'd make one fuck ugly girl. Probably a cross between Rosanne and Courtney Love... except uglier. I'd chase him around the control room all slow motion bouncy bouncy while he ran screaming.


I think I speak for the vast majority of the known universe when I say "Eew".


Lucky for Bob I'm not a chick.


Indeed. :Roll eyes:

The sound you are hearing is the drying of the cold sweat he broke out in...


Oh how the reply button taunts me...


:lol:

Cheers,
Tim

[Mixerpuppet]

[QUOTE=Cosmic Pig;78134 I love Bob. If I was a chick I'd blow him. Assuming of course I could catch him cuz I'd make one fuck ugly girl. Probably a cross between Rosanne and Courtney Love... except uglier. I'd chase him around the control room all slow motion bouncy bouncy while he ran screaming.

Lucky for Bob I'm not a chick.

Oh how the reply button taunts me...

Cos.[/QUOTE]


Uhhhhh....

You probably didn't need to share so much info...

It's to bad my brain doesn't have a "back button" like my browser...

The imagery is now burned lick a cheap cdr....

[eagan]

I think I speak for the vast majority of the known universe when I say "Eew".



Absolutely.

Although I am also laughing my face off.



JLE

[Tim Armstrong]

Good ol' Cosmic Pig... never an unexpressed thought!

:icon_eek:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D

Cheers, Tim

[nobby]

A studio is a performance space. It's all about making performing easy and the capture of a priceless performance bulletproof.


I recently heard a documentary on Motown.

Musicians packed cheek-to-jowl into Berry Gordy's garage.

So I guess it's not impossible for great things to come out of a home studio if the songs, musicianship, inspiration, and pure determination are there.

OTOH I'm not holding my breath waiting for the next Motown to come from one.

[nobby]

I suppose a small irony here (to the original poster) is that Slippy has been using Logic for considerably longer than Mixerman. :D

Slipperman is extremely flexible in his approach. Depending on your budget, you can get the big room, small room, Neve, Logic, Protools, etc.

Flexibility is one of the reasons his facility is one of the busiest, if not the busiest on the East Coast.

All Mixerman is doing is being flexible, so he can take on more projects.

[Bob Olhsson]

...This thing about the white hot event in a big studio I think is crap for most players. less pressure equals more inspiration..You have no idea how badly I wanted to believe this when I left Motown.

My 20/20 hindsight tells me that more pressure almost always resulted in less self indulgence and fewer excuses. The result of this was better performances. I think most people grossly underestimate what they are capable of musically but few have the balls to really put themselves on the line and find out.

[nobby]

You have no idea how badly I wanted to believe this when I left Motown.

My 20/20 hindsight tells me that more pressure almost always resulted in less self indulgence and fewer excuses. The result of this was better performances. I think most people grossly underestimate what they are capable of musically but few have the balls to really put themselves on the line and find out.

One of the things about the documentary that I found to be particularly striking was the particularly short deadline Berry Gordy imposed when he was feeling the competition from Atlantic and felt on a Friday? that he had to get the record (Same Old Song/ Four Tops) out on Monday. Which they did.

Pressure does force people to reach down deep and find out what they're made of, what they're capable of. And that is generally sadly lacking in home recording environments.

OTOH, there is no going back to they days where you could walk into someone's office and sing a song and get signed. Some types of music require a more elaborate production than others. Punk Rock and Jazz bands (I apologize in advance for putting Punk Rock and Jazz in the same sentence) for example may require minimal production.

I was in a local restaurant/bar and was listening to a 4 piece Jazz band. You could have put up a coincident pair and hit record, and that would have been the record. That isn't always the case.

[Cosmic Pig]

You have no idea how badly I wanted to believe this when I left Motown.

My 20/20 hindsight tells me that more pressure almost always resulted in less self indulgence and fewer excuses. The result of this was better performances. I think most people grossly underestimate what they are capable of musically but few have the balls to really put themselves on the line and find out.

Cool Bob, I think I just learned something.

I had a thought when Nobby said "Musicians packed cheek-to-jowl into Berry Gordy's garage."

And no it didn't involve Bob frolicking naked with pee pee a-bobbing through the control room, although I fear I may have relaunched that boat. Visualization centers shutting down in 3... 2... 1...

Okay. Anyways. Maybe another area where the advent of the home studio is hurting the potential for another Motown is in the inability to fill a studio with good musicians. There's not enough really good players to go around all the basement setups, and good writers all have their own little studios.

Back in the day in the right city with the right guy at the helm you could fill a room with some impressive road honed players and great writers pretty easily. I think it applies today as much as the sixties that the talent is much more important than the studio.

Gives me some ideas. I've been sort of collecting great tunes off the net by unknown writers with a vague notion of redoing them... I have access to some killer players who'll record for free... Maybe I'm due for an opus.

Cos.

[chrisj]

And no it didn't involve Bob frolicking naked with pee pee a-bobbing through the control room... Maybe I'm due for an opus.
Cos.

Maybe you're due for a spanking! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[myrtlebacker]

Pressure does force people to reach down deep and find out what they're made of, what they're capable of. And that is generally sadly lacking in home recording environments.

Yeah, but from what I gather Motown was comprised of all very well trained musicians that could deliver on the spot. In home recording you typically have the opposite. I doubt pressure is gonna help much there.

[nobby]

Yeah, but from what I gather Motown was comprised of all very well trained musicians that could deliver on the spot. In home recording you typically have the opposite. I doubt pressure is gonna help much there.

That's true as a generalization, but the example of Motown is more of an anecdote. I'm sure there were a thousand garages with musicians in them at the same time as Motown. Many had tape recorders.

I said:
So I guess it's not impossible for great things to come out of a home studio if the songs, musicianship, inspiration, and pure determination are there.


That's a lot to ask.

[Bob Olhsson]

In the early days Berry Gordy hired the best musicians in Detroit and recorded mono backing tracks at home using an old Western Electric broadcast mixer and a used Ampex 400 that he had bought from a DJ. The vocal overdubs were all done in a commercial studio. Some songs were also rerecorded in a commercial studio after it looked like they were about to be hits.

[GeeWhoLeeo]

This thing about the white hot event in a big studio I think is crap for most players. less pressure equals more inspiration.

this is what most musicians think, but what most musicians lack is the self criticism, at all levels from Paul McCartney to my uncle singin opera.
put a musician in the situation of judgin himself, of being at the same time the performer and the critic and you have a recipe for a disaster: less pressure means less focused.
what is important is the average performance of an artist, because that's the signature of his talent.
most of the times in a few takes you get his best and his worst, so why insisting in recording while the only way to improve it is practice?
a recording studio is not rehearsal room, it's a place where artists painfully learn their limits, in a controlled environment.(and i think someone in the past said something like: if there's no pain there's no art)
it's a mirror, it's like the graduating exam: you have to show someone what you can really do because there's no technology, no plugin, no autotune that can change your average performance... and you have to show it in a few takes.
on the other hand bedroom recording is really good to practice for a real studio gig and to study the arrangements, but nothing more.

[dikledoux]

...a recording studio is not rehearsal room, it's a place where artists painfully learn their limits, in a controlled environment.
Exactly, and if you're paying attention, this holds true in the home studio as much as anywhere. I've been quick to hit the playback and SHOW people where they're falling short - and then stop them from tracking til they come back ready to go. I'm more likely to do this for people who are talented but having a crappy day. No use continuing to track when things aren't going anywhere.

I don't think that home studios have diluted the talent pool for musicians NEARLY as much as it's diluted the talent pool for engineers and people who can direct a session. Cuz first you have to know when/if/why something is not working, and then you have to be able to get that point across firmly without deflating people or psych'ing them out. And you have to be so confident that you're right so that your point of view comes across as valid.

When things are going well, everything is easy. When things are plodding along - that's when someone who's good at recording/directing is worth the money. And no amount of hardware/software/room treatment/whatever will EVER replace that in a recording environment.

dik

[Bob Olhsson]

Almost every big star of the 60s and 70s built a state of the art home studio.

Virtually none recorded anything at home that advanced their career. In fact the vast majority of career-advancing recordings were made out of town where artists could be secluded from everyday life. This is what "sound hotels" are all about.

[Baddo]

All things being said here are true, and they all seem to steer in the same direction.

I just wanted to say that I think there is method behind making a home recording facility work, and there is method behind making a producer/musician situation work. Some people may not be suited for the job, ok true, but to generalize and delude yourself into thinking that all unknown musicians are the same and that not one of them is capable of being self-critical, methodical, analytical and honest to the point of making a correct decision from a production standpoint is a joke. It's much more difficult for it to happen though as opposed to two people working on the same situation.

Musicians are not emotionally handicapped and emotion is what it's all about.

...I realize no one said what I refer up here, but I just thought it needed stressing. There's too much intellect walking around this thread.

[eagan]

Almost every big star of the 60s and 70s built a state of the art home studio.

Virtually none recorded anything at home that advanced their career.

Todd Rundgren
Prince
Mike Oldfield
Larry Fast
Peter Gabriel
Adrian Belew

Off the top of my head.

Now, you can debate some stuff about that quick list like the exact time period, or how individuals might or might not meet the "big star" criteria, and for that matter, whether, in these examples, Real World and Paisley Park qualify as "home studios", per se. But the point is, some people do just fine in that mode of working.

If the facilities at hand are technically up to the job, there's somebody at the controls with the engineering chops, it comes down to whether or not the people involved have the needed self discipline and sense of objective self criticism. If so, they'll be just fine.

It's just not for everybody, that's all. I think a lot of what this thread has wandered into has a problem in trying to make overly broad generalizations.


JLE

[nobby]

to generalize and dilute yourself into thinking that all unknown musicians are the same and that not one of them is capable of being self-critical, methodical, analytical and honest to the point of making a correct decision from a production standpoint is a joke.

Delude, dude.

And it isn't a joke, it's a generalization.

Once again --

nobby sez:

it's not impossible for great things to come out of a home studio if the songs, musicianship, inspiration, and pure determination are there.

[GeeWhoLeeo]

no one is saying musicians are emotionally handicapped.
those examples like Peter Gabriel, Prince etc are not the norm.
infact they are called exceptions.
talking generally, generalizations are always right.
:Wink:

i'm not defending big studios or hotels, i'm not being patronal in a negative way, or saying musicians need babysitters.
i'm saying the obvious here: there's an awful lot more than pressing the recording button on a software and it takes years to develop the skills and knowledge.
if those exceptions like Prince etc. are considered there's another point to make: those people were fed since their early years of their careers with the best knowledge from the cream of the crop of the industry. they didn't start recording themselves or producing themselves at their first album.
they worked with the best professionals and learned a methodology from them. then they tried to do it on their own.
now, that's quite an uncommon situation.

[Cosmic Pig]

Musician produce thyself. Its hard to do. Generally.

Dowm here in the land of invisible CDs, I would venture to say the most common reason for an unlistenable CD is when the writer/player didn't listen to the producer, or bother with one at all.

Why would a writer set himself up in a home studio? The theory is to work on their stuff anytime they want, get more hours blah blah. But I suspect the real reason is so they don't have to have anyone elses input.

Cos.

[crunch]

Why would a writer set himself up in a home studio? The theory is to work on their stuff anytime they want, get more hours blah blah. But I suspect the real reason is so they don't have to have anyone elses input.

I think you're on to something here. I don't believe, for the most part, isolation from external input makes for great artistic output (I'm sure there are a few exceptions). Even though at first glance it may seem more initially "safe" for the artist, that is, without "anyone to pop holes in their balloons". Their dainty, precious artistic temperaments might get a booboo.

Suckers.

It makes more sense IMHO for people to get their asses handed to them during tracking, when they can actually do something about any oversights (or possibly miss out on ideas) as opposed to hindsight once it was "released".

You know, similar to people who have obstacles in their lives that are so obvious to everyone else BUT themselves?

I now believe that one really has to have a great producer, engineer, room and gear (notice the order there?) just have the fundamental building blocks to capture and reproduce one's vision in a relatively professional manner in the first place. The artist needs to have a great song and chops.

When folks self-produce, they also apparently don't take the finish line (completed mixing and mastering and preparing a release) nearly seriously enough. Shit comes out of the door WAY too early from inexperienced, isolated, naive ears. Think before you jump, chump.

OT: I just went from Tower of Power "Back to Oakland" to Allan Holdsworth "i.o.u."... I think my head is going to explode. Could get messy... Clean up, aisle 1...

[nobby]

It makes more sense IMHO for people to get their asses handed to them during tracking, when they can actually do something about any oversights (or possibly miss out on ideas) as opposed to hindsight once it was "released".



GeeWhoLeeo mentioned that a recording studio is not a rehearsal studio.

Good point. A lot of rehearsal studios have a simple reference mic setup in the rehearsal rooms. For less than half the hourly rate of a recording studio, the band can practice and record on a cassette recorder, then play it back.

In that manner, they can hear their obvious weak spots (unless they are Complete) and when they get to the recording phase, the engineer, who is typically the default producer at the project studio level, will be able to make suggestions rather than handing them their asses.

There was a famous anecdote from David Crosby during an interview. In the early days of the Byrds, they would get together and play in a garage or basement, and they thought they were pretty good.

One day, a friend dropped by with a tape recorder and recorded them. They were horrified by how sloppy they sounded, and it motivated them to improve.

[Tim Armstrong]

One day, a friend dropped by with a tape recorder and recorded them. They were horrified by how sloppy they sounded, and it motivated them to improve.

I sure know THAT feeling!!!

Cheers, Tim

[Slipperman]

Back to the original "5 years to ITB" copperx question.

My shop is a private production house.

I think it's fair to say that the "reasonable expectation" is that guys like me are going to bring something to the party that the client is not gonna to get by attempting to record himself.

Go figure.

Anyhoo.

I have yet to meet a client, at least one I think is worth having, who thinks he's gonna be a better judge of what tools I should employ to do this recording thing for/with him.

Needless to say... At this particular juncture I think ITB is a fiasco on a number of fronts. "Sonics" are at the top of that list. Even if "Sonics" were the ONLY thing on the list I'd be compelled to 86 that bullshit with a quickness.

Not that it's anybody's business here or anywhere... but... I own all my silly money, supposedly archaic, totally superior sounding, analog gear... free and clear of leases and loans.

Hope copperx doesn't mind if I take it one day at a time working my way back to ITB quality.

HOHOHO.

XOXOX

Slippy

PS. Nobody take the heat. I'm having fun and everything is "life and death" on the internot regarding the music business these days. Get's depressing.

[Starfucker]

About pressure... I think we're mixing up the word pressure with the word "stress". or "fear"

I love a bit of pressure in the studio, just feeling that if you want to succeed and make something good, you're gonna have to deliver. today. It makes me more concentrated and focused.

I've seen a lot of stress and fear in sessions. Mostly from guys who have no confidence or bands who have no vision. Stress is deadly and will fuck up a session that wasn't going anywhere in the first place even more.

The best way I think to overcome stress and to build some positive pressure is to make someone else pay for your session. That way you will try not to disappoint him and you won't be in shock about the amount of money you're throwing out the window.
And if you can't find someone who's willing to pay (or if you can't raise the money from shows or sales)... you suck :grin: go back to the rehearsal room instead of the studio.

[rockdart]

OK. I'm convinced.

Now - who's got a $10-15K grant for me so I can be properly put under a microscope and get my songs pulled away from my vest that they are currently attached to?

yeah... so I guess I'll keep having to do it myself then, given no other choice, eh?

[Cosmic Pig]

I think what you're talking about Rockdart is using a daw as a writing tool. Not recording a CD for sale.

Doing it yourself is where players screw up most. When the cheap digital daw first came out I, like a lot of guys, rushed out thinking I could do it myself. Then I figured if I threw more money at it I would then be able to do it myself. 1 year later I did it myself badly. 2 years later I finally heard compression. 5 years later I hit the limits of my daw and could actually hear the difference good gear makes.

6 years and 15 grand worth of crap later I said fuck that and started gigging again.

No regrets.

Starfucker said,
I've seen a lot of stress and fear in sessions. Mostly from guys who have no confidence or bands who have no vision. Stress is deadly and will fuck up a session that wasn't going anywhere in the first place even more.

That's one of the many reasons for a producer.

The best way I think to overcome stress and to build some positive pressure is to make someone else pay for your session. That way you will try not to disappoint him and you won't be in shock about the amount of money you're throwing out the window.
And if you can't find someone who's willing to pay (or if you can't raise the money from shows or sales)... you suck go back to the rehearsal room instead of the studio.
Reply With Quote

I mostly disagree. There's a big difference between a good band and a good song. Finding a backer is a sales thing, not a talent thing. If you have a band that looks and plays well but can't find a backer, then yes it's back to rehearsal. But there are a lot of good tunes written by ugly scared people without bands, or in my case, just plain ugly.

Unless I'm drinking.

Cos.

[rockdart]

no dude. I'd love to be able to work with a successful producer, have the songs torn apart, put back together again and then just be able to hear "Again" or "Great effin' take" and not have to play all the roles.

It'd help out so much - then I wouldn't have to get into stupid compromises with non-producers that end up pleasing the whole band; becoming ego strokes instead of the best thing for the song: music AND lyrics. Everyone might buckle down more instead of settling. Show up on time, stay focused, etc... don't get me wrong - we're more 'pro' than a lot of bands we work with but still.

I'd like to work in a great room with people who are knowledgable, efficient and know exactly what and why they're doing something.

But... $$$ changes everything. Especially the lack of it.

[GeeWhoLeeo]

But... $$$ changes everything. Especially the lack of it.

isn't this thread about mixing in a box in order not to turn down low budget productions?
you might discover that hiring some GOOD professionals is not as expensive as you think, especially for a single song.

[rockdart]

except it's 12 songs... I guess we're still "old school".

There are a few bands locally that have paid a producer... but it seemed more like a scam for someone to make a quick 5 or so grand.

I know that's not true of all in the game, but a 'name' does cost. I do have to wonder 'what if', if the resources were available. It may be nothing, it may be everything. But the spectre still haunts.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack this thread... I'm sure the others here at the womb in the same position are myriad.

I really do wonder though, if this ability will drive down the 'value' in some way, where the industry companies will drive down budgets because of an increasing ability to farm out projects to private shops and get away from the more expensive boutiques.

I'm tellin' ya though - if they'd drop the drinking age back down to 18, the business would come back around. I don't think it's coincidence that musicians got worse, gigs got worse and selling slowed down after the big change in '84 (though not fully realized until about '87).

[dikledoux]

...One day, a friend dropped by with a tape recorder and recorded them. They were horrified by how sloppy they sounded, and it motivated them to improve.The cheap tape recorder doesn't lie. I've had friends try to dismiss what they heard on simple live tapes - "yeah, but we don't really sound like this, it's a crappy little mic and recorder, blah, blah, blah"

It's been my experience that while a low-rent recording won't give you fidelity, it will give you dead-on accurate information about whether you're kicking ass or not. If you suck on a cheap tape, you actually do suck. If you're kicking ass, you'll hear it. It may not SOUND great, but you'll hear that you're kicking ass.

dik

[eagan]

Total agreement with what Dik is saying.

I've always had the view that, totally aside from any ambitions of generating a Serious Recording, any band (or even just a solo singer/guitarist or something) should try to always have some kind of basic recorder going for rehearsals and writing sessions, even if it's as cheesy as just a boombox cassette with built in mic and automatic gain control.

It might sound like shit, but there is nothing like a real recording of what you just did to hold reality up in front of you for evaluation.

This is the where major value of "home recording" lies for most musicians lies, I think.

We can debate the subject of home studio versus Real Studio for a long time, but I think the main problems are in the area of too many musicians buying into the musicians magazines ads and Banjo Center salesmen convincing everybody that if you just buy this assortment of magic stuff, presto, there you are ready to record your next CD right there in your basement.

Some people CAN do that, but it's certainly not for everybody, for the reasons people have already been talking about here at length.

The problem is that so many people don't accept the limitations they ought to, and understand that for them, or them and their band, they would be best off just keeping themselves to the idea of a setup being just a sketchpad and evaluation and planning tool for writing and working out preproduction stuff, and using it to have their act together as fully as possible before heading off to do a proper recording.

Looking back in a historical perspective, I think there was a period of time where people kept it all in realistic perspective, maybe starting around the time people started by Teac 3340 4-tracks, and moving later into 1/2 inch 8 track machines.

The problems with people starting to get a little lost started happening when the ADAT and DA-88 appeared, and really escalated when DAW stuff based on personal computers hit.

"Hey! Cool! Now we don't have to go to the expensive Big Studio! We can stay right here and record an album, and it's going to be just as good as The Big Studio, because it's digital!"

Suddenly people thought they had a magic wand, and they didn't. Still don't.


JLE

[HOOK]

It´s very easy!!

If you are talented/gifted/experienced in your craft you shine no matter where you work/what ever you use ...

If you suck, no money/tools/rooms in the world will help...


With the right guidance you may improve your performance and with the right tools for the job the result will be better.

This is true for any diciplin, be it painting, construction, plumming or for that matter: the making of music.

Not saying all need to go to school or do intern time, but most do.

Owning a huge set of tools and the fact that I renovated most of my house, doesn´t make me a carpenter.

The brush does not make the painter, but an exelent brush will be a magic vand in a talented painters hand.
...it will however do shit for one who suck!

Problem is that people does tend to under or over estimate their own skills....
(A clue; If you, yourself, think the world of yourself, then you better play with yourself...:Twisted:)
...hence the need for a pair of trained eyes/ears - A producer/Coach/teacher.....

I find it ridicolous that people even start to argue that it would be as good or better to record in your bed room than in a studio (yes there are a difference) Better for who? You need good tools and a dedicated room no matter what you are doing if you want to do it professionaly. Preferably away from home!!

Nevermind the box.

Its easy.

If you have talent you shine.
If you suck you don´t....


HOOK

[Shotgun]

Like Slipperman said, I think we're straying from the point here. I'd like to reiterate....


Slipperman is extremely flexible...Depending on your budget, you can get the big...tools, etc.

Flexibility is one of the reasons his [tools] is one of the busiest, if not the busiest on the East Coast.

All Mixerman is doing is being flexible, so he can take on more [tools].


That should clear it up.


~S

[SetTheory]

...Endlessly polishing an arrangement or a mix in a home studio often leads to taking an idea part its prime moment.
otek

I think in the olden days, there was such a thing as reheasal that greatly reduced studio time. Also, the requirement that a singer be able to sing on key before they could be a singer.