performing live - is that REALLY where the money will come from?

[pounce]

one of the arguments i've heard the most from folks talking about the industry, but most especially from the people who advocate using p2p technology to steal music is that artists should expect to make their money from live shows. so i pose the open ended discussion thread about live shows and money.

is that the future of the industry?

are you making real money from live shows now? are bigger acts making more money from shows than from music sales?

what percent of that money is merchandise?

what other ways are folks making money on the road?

i work on some pretty big shows, and they cost A LOT of money. imagining having that on the road is a very expensive gamble, and i've certainly seen dates come off of my calendar because the ticket sales couldn't support the tour. and some acts are better live than others. live isn't every acts forte.

i think non music industry people have no fucking idea how much time, money, and effort is involved in a big show. and just because their hobby band plays once in a blue moon at some little bar for free doesn't mean that they know jack shit about the reality of touring.

vehicles, insurance, your health on the road, family and other responsibilities, accomodations, other business concerns, etc. are quite a lot of things to juggle, never mind publicity, practicing, songwriting, and playing the shows. or having enough distance from all of that to function objectively, or get a break from it so the enormity of all of that doesn't zap all of your creative strength. in fact, too much time spent on that ruins that delicate and necessary creative safe space and you tend to lose the ability to fall back into being the musician again. on bigger tours where those concerns are addressed by someone else you can perhaps relax and just worry about your part. that's great. lots of smaller acts don't have that luxury.

is it really true that with whatever is happening with the music industry model that artists ought to expect to make money in live shows and not from the music releases? i don't know if i should expect live performance to take a bigger role in the future of music, or not.

what do ya think?

[bunnerabb]

Well, I've seen tickets for gigs being sold for up to 3G per seat. I dunno.. merch still moves.

Led Zep is doing a gig or two in London, soon, with Bonzo's kid and the tickets are £125.00 a toss.

250.00 clams is a lot for one show, you know?

I keep thinking that PPV HDTV concerts are gonna get big as soon as they stop compressing the shit out of the video feeds.

[Tim Armstrong]

Sure, someone like Led Zeppelin is gonna make money, but folks below superstar status are gonna have to be lean and mean to make money, because folks just don't go out to hear live music like they used to...

Cheers, Tim

[ggunn]

One might argue that it's how it should be - musicians should be able to play their music solidly live rather than having to bring in studio cats, sequence out the wazoo, and perform editing shenanigans to make their tunes palatable.

[ggunn]

Sure, someone like Led Zeppelin is gonna make money, but folks below superstar status are gonna have to be lean and mean to make money, because folks just don't go out to hear live music like they used to...

Cheers, Tim

At those prices it's no wonder.

[eagan]

Just a few days ago I was doing a bit of reading on the web, and I read a couple of different interviews with Todd Rundgren.

In one of them, he was saying some stuff that bore quite a bit of resemblance to things we read Bob Olhsson saying here (and over on REP) now and then. Talking about the state of things in the present time, basically saying "musicians should get away from a primary focus on recording and income from that, and concentrate on live performance, that's where they'll be best off, and can make a better living than if they depend on record sales", in light of what's been going on in recent years.

But, in another interview, ironically, he was talking a bit about different things, different approaches he has taken to live performance, over the past 15 years or so, and saying that it was a tough row to hoe to go out and tour on his own as a headliner with a full band and make much money on the tour.

Pounce is right, too many times I've heard that kind of bullshit about "everybody knows musicians make their money from playing live, they never made any money on records anyway, so they're not losing anything when I burn their shit to a CD, it's just those big rich record companies that have been ripping us off for years so they deserve it anyway". And those kinds of shitheads will inevitably apply their genius reasoning to live shows and think something like "hey, Band X played at Enormous Arena and there were probably 10,000 people there, and tickets were a hundred bucks, so they make a million dollars a show!".


JLE

[dwoz]

I think its also important to consider what we mean here. I'd like to imagine that we're talking about "making a decent living" playing music.

Where I'm coming from, is that in the old industry model, combined with things like M.A.D.D. shutting down clubs, was that the middle range was destroyed. you either made stupid money playing big big venues, or you made nothing playing no-places. The middle...the ability to just make a living wage...all but disappeared.

I think what we hope for, is that one could be a musician, and work as a musician, and make the kind of living wage that a nurse or accountant or programmer or cop can make.


dwoz

[Bob Olhsson]

Everybody has a million excuses for why it's "ok" for them to loot musicians' intellectual property.

The thing I'll never forget was Graham Nash telling me in 1972 that there was no longer any real money in touring for CSN. He said they needed to go out for ten weeks just to break even and then pray that they had enough stamina left to do another week so that they could bring home some money.

[Dr. Bob]

From where I sit, there's a "new" logic to apply to touring and recording and merch.

Since the vast majority of acts are not getting arena gigs and there are few promoters that are doing medium sized events, there are limited outlets to maximize income.

The happier, more profitable acts that I've seen and worked with in last couple of years are all doing something in common. They are "buying" their own gear. Not just PA, but lights, video and trucking. When I say buying, some of the stuff is leased, some is purchased. Very little is rented.

These really profitable acts are taking the time to polish their stuff. Their stage presence, sound and lights are worked on to the point that it's a real "show" consisting of music and honest entertainment.

The real reason that these acts are making money is that they engage the audience and then ask them to support their efforts buy purchasing their merch.

The logic stands up... knock their socks off... engage them and the people will become devoted fans. Devoted fans WILL support your efforts.

[Bob Olhsson]

Graham Nash was talking about medium sized events. It is why the big names moved to arenas.

[pounce]

i spend most of my time in 3000 to 4000 seat venues here in town, and that's what i call mid sized. i also do 12k and up venues on occasion, so that's big. i suppose 1000 seats and below is pretty much small. is that about what we mean? i think those three areas have very different money from each other.

[Bob Olhsson]

...i think non music industry people have no fucking idea how much time, money, and effort is involved in a big show. and just because their hobby band plays once in a blue moon at some little bar for free doesn't mean that they know jack shit about the reality of touring...
...is it really true that with whatever is happening with the music industry model that artists ought to expect to make money in live shows and not from the music releases? i don't know if i should expect live performance to take a bigger role in the future of music, or not.

The degree to which most people don't have a clue about the music business other than occasionally their own little corner of it is absolutely stunning. Steve Albini's famous article about a band that obviously (but only to those of us who have worked at a label) got fleeced by their own manager and lawyer is pretty typical.

Live performance is critical for exposure unless you are simply pandering to Madison Avenue focus groups with sound-a-likes. There is not a lot of evidence many people are earning more than a subsistence income even by playing covers.

We need to find ways of making live performances and recordings profitable again. Nobody is going to do this for us.

[nobby]

I used to read all the time, [major act] is going on tour to promote their new album.

I've recently heard of indies promoting the use of p2p to promote their artists.

Turns out, the companies would get a cut of the concerts, which would have to be substantially more than enough to cover the cost of the tour. And have fun trying to sell your CDs at your concerts (or anywhere else) when everybody already has the music downloaded for free.

[Mr. dB]

So what's all this hoohah by the RIAA types about the record companies desire to start getting a piece of the tour profits and merch?

[Bob Olhsson]

It's like this:

Record labels and management companies often invest a million dollars or more in a new artist that demonstrates some traction. Record sales disappearing means that artists will no longer enjoy the luxury of investment in one area of their career not needing to be paid back out of activities in another. Songwriters are going to have to give up their publishing too.


It sucks but it's still not nearly as bad as borrowing the money from a bank and being forced to pay it back.

File looting may hurt record labels but the thing few realize is that it's absolutely crushing artists, songwriters, producers and studios.

[eagan]

File looting may hurt record labels but the thing few realize is that it's absolutely crushing artists, songwriters, producers and studios.

And the sick thing, it's clear, painfully obvious to everybody Bob addresses in the choir loft, but it never fails. Whenever you read or hear people rattling on about the subject in the general media, this never is mentioned. People act like it's strictly a matter between record labels and listeners. All the people in the mix actually making the stuff involved just don't exist.


JLE

[pounce]

these posts are depressingly true.

[burnsy]

It's like this:


File looting may hurt record labels but the thing few realize is that it's absolutely crushing artists, songwriters, producers and studios.

On the otherside of that could it mean that we begin to see a better quality of artists come through that maybe deserve the investment.

Im not pro or even amateur in this game but Ive noticed that any old tom dick and harry seems to be opening studios , any old bands are getting signed. I mean I speak from the UK perspective.

AS for piracy is concerned theres no real way of protecting the music for sure unless there is a massive clamp down on internet p2p's.

As a live engineer myself I would like to see more live shows taking place and bands that can actually perform live being invested in , rather than the bands that cant perform live and use lumps of production to make them sound ok.

But in one of the above posts it mentions people arent coming out for live music anymore. I completely agree , I recently move one of the nights i worked with a promoter to a different venue where the technical aspects were greatly improved. But because the beer wasnt as cheap or the door entrance they didnt want to know. I think its disgusting that people arent coming out more for the performance not just the alcohol.

Shame really.

[Bob Olhsson]

The reason the quality isn't what it once was is because in most parts of the US talented young performers can no longer gain the experience that they need unless they have massive amounts of family money available.

[burnsy]

I see. Id forgotten about that aspect of things as well.

[Bob Olhsson]

We're living in an era where Sinatra, Presley, the Beatles and Stevie Wonder probably couldn't afford to have a career other than maybe in hip hop. The same is true of me.

I'm not willing to give up on fixing this situation but sometimes it sure feels like I'm just shouting into the wind.

[eagan]

Here's one of the things that depresses me about this stuff in general.

While I totally understand and support stuff like Bob waving the banner (and very persistently, god bless him) of "sustain and support and revitalize live music", there's stuff I keep thinking about.

Mainly, especially, when anybody says "alright, forget recorded music, it's all free now and forever, playing live is the only thing now".


What gets left out more often than not is that there were reasons, good reasons, why recorded music ever took off.

One thing, a subject close to me, is that it's possible to make music in recorded form that's seriously impractical or even completely fucking impossible to perform live. (And I do not mean polished turd processed teenybopper pop boy band girl band whatever shit to make a product from inept performers.)


But the other, more widely relevant thing, even for people who do the same stuff live that they can do in a studio, is that recorded music as a medium addressed the problem that, even if you can perform well live, and you have some people who want to hear you, you can't be everywhere on the planet to do that.

For that matter, if there are people scattered around cities all over the country, maybe even around the world, who want to hear you and will pay to hear you, if you only have about 50 of those people in any given city, things are not looking so good in the practical financial and logistical areas on the "playing live as a sustainable business" front.

On the other hand, if only 50 people in each city in bunches of widely scattered cities are willing to buy an album of stuff you've recorded, maybe you might possibly have something to work with.


JLE

[Dr. Bob]

Eagan.... bro...

"New" concept...

What IF there indeed WAS a way that you could actually be virtually everywhere on the planet.... at the same time?

[eagan]

Eagan.... bro...

"New" concept...

What IF there indeed WAS a way that you could actually be virtually everywhere on the planet.... at the same time?

OK, Bob. I see the dust rising over the horizon in the distance here. You're going to tell me you can put a video/audio stream on the net and it's just like a live show?


JLE

[TiedForLastGuitar]

Eagan.... bro...

"New" concept...

What IF there indeed WAS a way that you could actually be virtually everywhere on the planet.... at the same time?

Interesting thread....I actually just saw an advertisement today where a company would stream your live performance on this virtual world called "Second Life"...

Basically you would be playing live and your "characters" would be rocking out in this cyber world while the live audio streams...

I like video games as much as the next guy , but I'd rather go to bars/clubs and see live music in a real setting

[ggunn]

OK, Bob. I see the dust rising over the horizon in the distance here. You're going to tell me you can put a video/audio stream on the net and it's just like a live show?


JLE

Well, you know, maybe he's got something there. In a big arena venue, the JumboTron is all most of the punters look at, that and the light show, which may as well be over some mannequins for all they can see from the cheap seats, anyway. The music might as well be recorded as well for all the hand and lip synch they can see. If it's loud enough and the lights are dazzling enough, and the A/V bandwidth is sufficient for high quality sound and HD video on a very large screen, why couldn't one sell seats to a streamed event? As Tom Waits says, "Gitcha little somethin' that you can't get at home."

That really is the underlying key to this whole dilemma: sell something the supply of which you have control over.

[Dr. Bob]

Well... I'm not thinking that far out off in the netherworld... but maybe sumpin' kinda' close to it... I mean... you guy's have never heard of pay-per-view subscription's or pod casts or TV or internet radio or streaming video?

Why wouldn't something like that work on a worldwide internut basis for audio and live music? Sure, it's in a concept phase ATM, but wtf... it's doable. The problem isn't the public, or the delivery technology. It's the content generation technology... but not for too much longer as far as I can tell... and it ain't THAT big of an issue.

[nobby]

Mainly, especially, when anybody says "alright, forget recorded music, it's all free now and forever, playing live is the only thing now".


What gets left out more often than not is that there were reasons, good reasons, why recorded music ever took off.

One thing, a subject close to me, is that it's possible to make music in recorded form that's seriously impractical or even completely fucking impossible to perform live. (And I do not mean polished turd processed teenybopper pop boy band girl band whatever shit to make a product from inept performers.)



Compare the Beatles live at Shea Stadium to Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, just for one of numerous examples.

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience has been that the common denominator of successful artists has virtually always been extensive live performing experience.

The records that broke the Beatles were recorded nearly live. As cool as Sgt. Peppers was, it's not likely that record could have broken a band that nobody had ever heard of.

[eagan]

My experience has been that the common denominator of successful artists has virtually always been extensive live performing experience.


Point taken, Bob, but maybe getting off the point here.

Let's assume that we're talking about people who know what it is to stand on a stage in a band in front of a crowd and make music, and had other ideas. Not people who spent a couple years in a bedroom learning how to bang out a few things on guitar, and thought one day "hey, if I get a computer and some software and a few other gizmos from Banjo Center, I can make records".



JLE

[Dr. Bob]

A very good artist I know (singer/songwriter) does the morning shift at the Nashville International Airport. He has a website that's well put together with merch and CD's.

He's out there at the airport playin' his heart out like 10 days a month.

He sells an average of 10-15 CD's a day. He sells like 10-15 CD's a month off the site.

Getting in front of people is far more meaningful to people just walking by than those who either stumble across his website or are referred to it. It's also more meaningful to him, as he's able to connect with his audience. He becomes a real entity, not just a few words and a virtual person.

I'll concede the point that you CAN do more on an album than live... but sometimes at what cost?

I remember the uproar when The Beatles announced that they would no longer play live and ONLY produce albums. No one thought that is was feasible, and that they were doomed to failure.

The only way that they were able to get by with that was that they had already gotten their name and popularity by playing live.

[nobby]

I remember the uproar when The Beatles announced that they would no longer play live and ONLY produce albums. No one thought that is was feasible, and that they were doomed to failure.

The only way that they were able to get by with that was that they had already gotten their name and popularity by playing live.

That has to be the rarest of exceptions, and they could only do that because they were the most famous band in the world.

We aren't talking about giving up live performances. Those will never go out of style. We're talking about giving up studio recordings when the last dollar is sucked out of that.

And, forgive me, but I find a story of someone playing all day at an airport and selling 10-15 CDs less than totally inspiring.

[Bob Olhsson]

We aren't talking about giving up studio recordings however studio recordings have almost never broken an act. Yes, they expand an act's audience geographically but the common kind of "Field of Dreams" mentality that making one's own Sargent Pepper's will lead directly to success is has little basis in reality. This assumes the artist is actually earning a living from their career.

I find the idea of a singer/songwriter earning $2000 a month by playing a few mornings a week very inspiring. How many band members can say they earn enough from their music to not need a day job?

[nobby]

I find the idea of a singer/songwriter earning $2000 a month by playing a few mornings a week very inspiring. How many band members can say they earn enough from their music to not need a day job?

That's pretty good, but what is his overhead?

studio cost
replication cost
transportation cost (unless he hitchhikes or lives at the airport)

I'm guessing he sets up with a small folding table and an acoustic guitar?

I guess he's doing alright if he also has gigs at clubs as well?

The cost of living is stupid high where I am, but a few people play for money in the subways or Central Park. Very few band members can say they earn enough from their music to not need a day job here.

[Mr. dB]

My experience has been that the common denominator of successful artists has virtually always been extensive live performing experience.

The records that broke the Beatles were recorded nearly live. As cool as Sgt. Peppers was, it's not likely that record could have broken a band that nobody had ever heard of.

Britney Spears, NSync, New Kids, I bet they all slugged it out in the clubs for years...

[Dr. Bob]

That's pretty good, but what is his overhead?

studio cost
replication cost
transportation cost (unless he hitchhikes or lives at the airport)

I'm guessing he sets up with a small folding table and an acoustic guitar?

I guess he's doing alright if he also has gigs at clubs as well?

The cost of living is stupid high where I am, but a few people play for money in the subways or Central Park. Very few band members can say they earn enough from their music to not need a day job here.

If you want to get down to the brass tax of it, I think you missed my point. If you look at the overall gist of what I was getting at, I think my point is better understood.

From brass tax, The guy gets to play at the airport for like 4-6 hours at a pop. This is a thing done at the Nashville airport, because it's NASHVILLE. He's paid by the airport, plus he gets tips and can sell his wares.

Thats' not his only gig. He does other gig's like anyone else. He sells his merch and CD's like anyone else too... at a margin.

Playing music is pretty much his only source of income, but he does a few other things as well. He's married w/o children, so that makes it quite a bit easier... but one does what is necessary to pay bills and eat.

My real point is that as wonderful as the net is, there's such a noise level that getting noticed is like picking a single grain of sand on the beach.

When you get in front of people, that's when you are really working. You are a performer. You engage and entertain the people in front of you.

My illustration was really this; that in the midst of a bustling international airport, people will actually stop and listen to LIVE music and enjoy it to the point that they buy a CD or a T-Shirt. To me, that says a lot for actually being there, cutting your teeth on communicating with the public.

When you consider the likes of N-Stink and all the boy toy and pretty face acts that we've constantly been subjected to (by the record labels pushing their hyped investment formulated creation's) people as a whole... OK... more like adults who can objectively make up their own minds, will prefer honestly made music over plastic hyped bullshit.

[Bob Olhsson]

Britney Spears, NSync, New Kids, I bet they all slugged it out in the clubs for years...Spears had acting experience before Disney. NSync worked European venues for 4 years before Disney gave them their break. New Kids was formed based on auditions but I'd bet each of those kids had real performing experience under their belt. The latter two groups probably didn't make very much, if anything, after expenses.

[nobby]

From brass tax, The guy gets to play at the airport for like 4-6 hours at a pop. This is a thing done at the Nashville airport, because it's NASHVILLE. He's paid by the airport, plus he gets tips and can sell his wares.

That's interesting. He's working hand in glove with the local tourist industry. If you are guessing that this wouldn't work at most other airports, I'm guessing that you're right.

My real point is that as wonderful as the net is, there's such a noise level that getting noticed is like picking a single grain of sand on the beach.

When you get in front of people, that's when you are really working. You are a performer. You engage and entertain the people in front of you.



I know you aren't out to insult my intellegence by telling me promotion 101 stuff that's on every promotional how-to site on the internet.

Don't forget to look both ways before you cross the street :grin:

[Dr. Bob]

I know you aren't out to insult my intellegence by telling me promotion 101 stuff that's on every promotional how-to site on the internet.

Nope... not even trying to go there. Just TRYING make sure I'm clear... w/o any mud particles. This was probably the only paragraph I shoulda' used...

"My illustration was really this; that in the midst of a bustling international airport, people will actually stop and listen to LIVE music and enjoy it to the point that they buy a CD or a T-Shirt. To me, that says a lot for actually being there, cutting your teeth on communicating with the public."

Seriously, didn't mean to be or appear to be condescending. I have a history of saying things that look right to me on my screen and then don't make sense or are taken the wrong way on someone else's screen.

I know that in all likelyhood if we were sittin' in a bar over a coupla' cold one's that this wouldn't even be an issue because we'd be using other cue's than just written word. So, I apologize for bein' a dink.

[ggunn]

Don't forget to look both ways before you cross the street :grin:

And don't run with your hands in your pockets.

[eagan]

I feel like going for a run.

Anybody got any scissors?



JLE

[ggunn]

I feel like going for a run.

Anybody got any scissors?



JLE

No, but there's a frozen pump handle I'm dyin' to lick.

EDIT: I'd like to withdraw the preceding statement...

[Dr. Bob]

Beats running through the woods with an ax... like I've evidently done.