Let's talk about GROOOOOVE

[aframe9999]

What IS it? I mean, i already KNOW what it is. I know it when i hear it. I can identify when a song has it or doesn't have it. But i've never really been able to verbalize what it is.

Question # 1: How do YOU describe it.....in words? Define it.

Now... I'd like to think of myself as a pretty decent drummer. But I'm always trying to develop my 'sense of groove'. my head hears it, but i can't always get my hands and feet to do what's in my head.

Question #2: how do you develop it, practice it, grow with it? any specifc tricks or tips you've learned over the years?

Cheers..

Andy - (on the neverending quest for GROOOOOOOVE)

[otek]

Question # 1: How do YOU describe it.....in words? Define it.

I think the idea is, we shouldn't have to. :D

Dancing about architecture, and all that.

my head hears it, but i can't always get my hands and feet to do what's in my head.

I wish I had a good explanation to that. The whole topic is about as elusive and multi-faceted as the come. I suppose at some level, it's about pure motor skills, but much of it is also about how in touch you are with your emotions, as corny as that may sound.

For me, it's also about focus. I haven't practiced guitar now for 15 years, but I feel I play better now than I ever have, from a purely musical standpoint (although that's not saying much). I think part of the reason may be that I focus on different things, and I hear the music differently now than I did when I was a kid woodshedding in my room. I'm not so concerned anymore with what I am doing and how I sound, but more with what is going on with the whole of the musical event as it is unfolding.

I also play a lot simpler.... I have no choice, ain't got no chops anymore! :D

[Starfucker]

Groove to me is what makes you dance, or move some parts of your body. Even if it's only your head or foot.

Except for when you're tapping your foot as an attempt to magically and telepathically help a drummer find his groove. that doesn't count.

And I think groove has something to do with confidence.

[malice]

Philip Catherine, the famous belgian jazz guitarist once told my father that he once put a Paul Chambers bass line, note for note, into cubase, quantized it.

The result was quite amazing: it was "grooving" like Paul Chambers.

What can we deduct from this.

That Philip Catherine is a lunatic: well, if you don't know him, you might end with this conclusion, but I can tell you the guy is above "world class" jazz musician.

What we can conclude is that a great part of the groove resides in the notes you chose. Not only the timing: as incredible this might sound.

There is another copnclusion: we don't yet fully understand what the "groove" really is. Like we don't understand what are the mechanism of our brain, or the chemistry occuring when we are confronted to art and beauty.

The "groove" is somehow an "unkown" territory, and something that we can't copy easily.

But one thing is sure: you have it, or you don't have it.

malice

[bunnerabb]

Get a copy of Earth Wind and Fire's Greatest Hits

Press play

Groove.

[Goes211]

That Philip Catherine is a lunatic: well, if you don't know him, you might end with this conclusion, but I can tell you the guy is above "world class" jazz musician.

I can vouch for that.
One of the 'cats'. You guys in Europe, catch him if he's in your town.

On the subject of groove, I personally kind of enjoy the voodoo about it. One element too many and it's gone. One too little and it's not there. It's like cooking, and as these things go...highly subjective.
Defining groove ? That's a tough one. Like Bunner said...EWF have it in spades. But then Talking Heads didn't groove worth shit in the received sense and they were still fucking great. They had their own quirky groove.

[malice]

Buy as many record of "the meters" you could find.

malice

[Bob Olhsson]

My working definition is a consciousness of steady time that allows one to utilize tension against steady time as an element of music.

It's an integral part of the tradition of non-conducted ensemble music in all cultures.

[otek]

And for a different kind of groove....

Listen to anything by Hermeto Pascoal.

This will challenge your definition of groove - in a good way!

[seagate]

If it makes me move it's got it...

[Johnny]

The sum total of timing, inflection, timbre, dynamics and aesthetic/compositional choices that provokes a pleasing emotional response in the audience usually expressed physically. It changes within differing cultural environments.

EWF wouldn't excite your typical Tool fan, and vice versa.

[seagate]

EWF wouldn't excite your typical Tool fan, and vice versa.

:icon_eek: Tool have groove???

[Johnny]

See? :)

Yes, and so does Zakir Hussein.

[Palewailer]

Listen to anything by Hermeto Pascoal.



Another reason to love the Cupped Cat.

[Palewailer]

My working definition is a consciousness of steady time that allows one to utilize tension against steady time as an element of music.

:Thumbsup:

[M.Brane]

Yup. Bob nails it. He's in the groove.:Thumbsup:

[dikledoux]

My working definition is a consciousness of steady time that allows one to utilize tension against steady time as an element of music.
Your choice of words is interesting - specifically the use of "consciousness". I feel like there are at least 2 levels of activity when someone is grooving. First, there's the input where an individual uses their senses to perceive what's already going on, then there's the the whole internal process that is almost anything BUT conscious. It's almost visceral, something that happens like at the top of your spine rather than in your brain. The result of that process is what you do with your body and your actions contribute back to the process like a feedback loop. Even people bobbing their heads at the tables are contributing to the thing.

There's also the whole idea of "intention". Someone else said it's got something to do with confidence and they're closely related, no? When you're completely focused AND the interaction between you and other musicians is working like it should, groove happens.

It's not a binary thing, either (no pun intended). You can groove, or groove HARD. Schoolkids learning instruments in band may be clumsy and painfully imperfect but every once in a while they'll all get going together and the groove appears in a clumsy schoolkid form. It's almost not a thing you can do so much as an indication that you've done something very right.

...dancing about architecture and all that <g>.

dik

[Bob Olhsson]

Even time is very much a visceral feeling for both the performer and the listener because they will tend to breathe together.

Improvisation flows directly from groove because you can think ahead of what you are playing. Turning the mind off or thinking about something else is almost always a good thing when it comes to music. The key is not losing concentration.

[philsaudio]

I was wondering if anyone can weigh in on groove and clasical music.

Did any of the mistros have it?
Do any clasical records you know of have it?

I tend to think it is something that did not exist for that style of music. I never want to tap my foot to clasical unless it is to kick the turntable to shut it off.


peace
Phil

[otek]

I tend to think it is something that did not exist for that style of music. I never want to tap my foot to clasical unless it is to kick the turntable to shut it off.


I take that diatribe to mean that you're not too fond of classical music as a whole. That's ok, it's a pretty common standpoint today.

Though if you think about Bob's definition of groove, I think it's highly applicable to classical music, as well. It's just not a groove based on straight, metronomic rhythm for the most part.

Though to be honest, I personally have a hard time not getting into the rhythm feel of something like Ravel's Bolero, or Holst's Mars, or even things that lack percussion, such as Vivaldi's Spring.

Whatever floats your boat.


Cheers,

otek

[jstuart]

I record quite a bit of classical music. ( though I'm really a rock, jazz -folk -funk kind of guy...) As in any music style there are a few who groove and a lot that don't. String quartets seem to have the best likelyhood of grooving- brass quintets hardly ever do- they are both small groups, in close proximity, but it seems to me that the Strings listen to each other much more... (that being said, I just recorded a brass quintet that kicked ass... during a holiday program no less.. go figure.)

In orchestras, the whole thing comes down to the conductor. The players rely on the conductor to set it up, since there is a 1/10th of a second or thereabouts between the percussionists on one side and the bassists on the other...they can't just listen to each other and get a groove thang happening... I've recorded performances where there is a high end guest conductor for a "set" . The regular conductor guides the orch thru a pleasant, if un-groovalicious set, and then the guest comes to the podium and the orch is suddenly sounding like a classical James Brown....the very same players, but with a great conductor ( the scenario has also gone the other direction- that was simply one of the possibilities) . Some conductors set the tempo too fast or slow, as well , removing the "natural groove of a piece.

As an aside, I've done sound for the Count Basie Band a few times. sort of a twenty piece Orchestra with a wide stage layout. no monitors except for the leader, the guit, and the singer. Unquestionably one of the hardest grooving ensembles I've ever heard. And, an inspiration to any player to keep at it, since 60 or 70 % of the group was in the 65 yrs+ range.
J

[con mucho gusto]

What we can conclude is that a great part of the groove resides in the notes you chose. Not only the timing: as incredible this might sound.


That is an amazing and extremely overlooked point!

I had a teacher that made me transcribe all of those Paul Chambers, Dave Holland, etc lines and remembering how deep that shit was.

in fact...i just had the pleasure/honor of recording Joey Defrancesco in my studio a few nights ago...that really fucked me up...those types of lines and stretching them so far over the bar line that it turns your spine inside out. It would sound amazing coming out of a sequencer, but what put the icing on the cake was the phrasing. the way his solos/comping/melody lines interacted w/ his solid ass bass lines. all over the beat-way ahead, way behind, whatever.

i do like Bob's quote too..definitely something to ponder..

My working definition is a consciousness of steady time that allows one to utilize tension against steady time as an element of music.

[bunnerabb]

Classical can groove.

Beethoven's 6th.. the Pastoral Symphony.

Grooves.

[philsaudio]

Classical can groove.

Beethoven's 6th.. the Pastoral Symphony.

Grooves.

Just listened to Bruno Walter with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra do Van Beet's 6th op.68 Pastoral Leonore Overture no 2. op 72a.

I must have different genes from yours as I did not even tap my foot once and took notice once or twice over the whole thing.

Bolero I like but it drags to much for me to feel any groove.

Bizet's Carmen has some goove that plays in my head ocasionally so I guess clasical can but perhaps you need to be wired different from me to get it.

I am not against clasical but it rarely gets any play time when I am the DJ.

peace
Phil

[Skwaidu]

The best grooves I hear as an AE most often happen when a group of accomplished musicians are *not* playing for the first time together... Or at least some of them, preferably the drummer and bassist *know* how to play with the other and mesh their playing from habit... Hmm. :Roll eyes:



And what Malice said, IMHO groove is also a lot about note selection I.E. "the riff".

[philsaudio]

[QUOTE=Skwaidu;10375]The best grooves I hear as an AE most often happen when a group of accomplished musicians are *not* playing for the first time together... Or at least some of them, preferably the drummer and bassist *know* how to play with the other and mesh their playing from habit... Hmm. :Roll eyes: [QUOTE]

SKW brings up an interesting point.

1) Is it possible for the drummer and bass to groove when they are not playing together, but playing one at a time while multi tracking?

I have heard some really solid groove when the same groovy guy plays the drums, bass and guitar ( one at a time of course) perhaps because all the parts come from the same mental pocket.

peace
Phil

[Skwaidu]

The best grooves I hear as an AE most often happen when a group of accomplished musicians are *not* playing for the first time together... Or at least some of them, preferably the drummer and bassist *know* how to play with the other and mesh their playing from habit... Hmm. :Roll eyes:

SKW brings up an interesting point.

1) Is it possible for the drummer and bass to groove when they are not playing together, but playing one at a time while multi tracking?

I have heard some really solid groove when the same groovy guy plays the drums, bass and guitar ( one at a time of course) perhaps because all the parts come from the same mental pocket.

peace
Phil

IMHO it is very much possible, even with separate people... But probably it helps if those people have still been *playing together* at some point, developing their sense of groove regarding each other.

[Johnny]

It's totally possible. Whoever goes second (bassist usually) is listening to the drummer in the same way he would if they were both there. The give is only one-sided, but still. People don't have to all be in the same building to groove together.

I've come in last several times and had to try to tie the whole thing together and make it work. I guess it's not for me to decide, but I think the end result grooved okay.

In a lot of tracking situations (at my level, at any rate) I don't always want to be there with the other musicians, because I'm usually dealing with some rather distracting performances on the part of unprepared bandmembers/singer-songwriters. If it's not so unpredictable (they're not playing with me, so the time isn't chaotically winding around) I can at least know what I'm dealing with. Obviously the result would groove much, much better if everyone was prepared to deliver a performance but I'm not usually in control of that. :)

[Fulcrum]

A few scattershot comments and questions.

When Philip Catherine (yes, I've heard of him-- he did some work with Focus after Jan Akkerman left) entered the Paul Chambers bassline into Cubase and quantized it and it still sounded like Chambers, is it possible that note articulation and velocity (if not so much phrasing) might have had something to do with it?

Bob's definition comes closest to a working definition of groove as any I've heard. Internally, I would pair that with Robert Fripp postulating that we develop our technique in order to forget it when it comes time to play. So we hone our sense of time in order to be able to push and pull it back and forth like taffy.

In some sense, groove, I think, is a subset of soul. Classical music may not groove, but I can't listen to The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams and not think there was a huge chunk of soul invested in there on the part of the composer and the orchestras who include it as part of their repertoire.

And yeah, Johnny, +1: just try sitting still when Zakir Hussain has an entire audience eating out of his hand soloing with just two hand drums. I've never seen tabla playing like that before. That's soul, if not groove. It may well be groove, actually.

[Johnny]

I just started tabla lessons. It grooves, all right! Zakir is frightening. But, for all he does, the time is right there for those who understand it.

[otek]

In some sense, groove, I think, is a subset of soul. Classical music may not groove, but I can't listen to The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams and not think there was a huge chunk of soul invested in there on the part of the composer and the orchestras who include it as part of their repertoire.


Very well put.

[Skwaidu]

IMHO it is very much possible, even with separate people... But probably it helps if those people have still been *playing together* at some point, developing their sense of groove regarding each other.

And reiterating after reading Johnny's good point...

I'm just talking about a "sound" or "signature" groove for a band, that it probably still is there even if you overdub them/ some of them... If the "have it" that is. Though most often bands of this level of proficiency/ "gel" *want* to lay the basics as a group...

And yeah, if you overdub random session cats who never met each other you may still very well end up with a cool groove if the stars are aligned right, the arrangement and production works and everybody knows how to "react"...

[malice]

I just started tabla lessons. It grooves, all right! Zakir is frightening. But, for all he does, the time is right there for those who understand it.


Ahhh,

that answers my PS question in the C&C thread.

It is very important to have someone that not only knows the technique ( I know a lot of percussionists that can hit correctly the tablas ) but know how to "count" the tempo as a true tabla master (I will assume Zakir is from Pakistan, right ?)

This is very important for the accent. In Indian and Pakistanese music, you don't count the time like "1-2-3-4", it is much more complicated and it is very important to set the groove.

Similar exotic beat counting occures in various "world" music (stupid term if you ask me, but let's not digress) like in Cuban music for instance.

That is a very crucial aspect of the groove.

malice

[Johnny]

Zakir is Indian. There is a counting system to the music ("tal"), and there are "measures" and even "beats" the tabla player learns. Within tal there is a system of claps and waves of the hand that to my way of thinking anyway resembles clave in Afro-Cuban music.

What's interesting about tabla is that there is also an harmonic aspect of playing, not just implied, as with the toms on a drumkit, but actual tuning of the dayan (the wood drum) to the tonic or dominant and modulation of the bayan (the metal drum) with the wrist, much like a West African donno or talking drum.

[philsaudio]

It's totally possible. Whoever goes second (bassist usually) is listening to the drummer in the same way he would if they were both there. The give is only one-sided, but still. People don't have to all be in the same building to groove together.

I've come in last several times and had to try to tie the whole thing together and make it work. I guess it's not for me to decide, but I think the end result grooved okay.

In a lot of tracking situations (at my level, at any rate) I don't always want to be there with the other musicians, because I'm usually dealing with some rather distracting performances on the part of unprepared bandmembers/singer-songwriters. If it's not so unpredictable (they're not playing with me, so the time isn't chaotically winding around) I can at least know what I'm dealing with. Obviously the result would groove much, much better if everyone was prepared to deliver a performance but I'm not usually in control of that. :)


Personally , my bass playing groove is partialy established visually, I mean I can see when the drummer hits the kit and can anticipate a roll. but then again we work mostly as a jam band not to arranged songs.

When playing along to pre-recorded music I also find it easier to jam along with a video than with just the audio playing, something about the groove is in the bodies of the players and I am very sensative to that.

Perhaps one of the reasons I personaly believe (in my opinion)that orchestras cant groove is because what they see and what they hear is out of time (somewhat) due to the size of the stage and placement of the instruments. - but then again they do watch the conductor not each other.

peace
Phil

[otek]

Personally, my bass playing groove is partialy established visually...

I'm glad Ray Charles didn't have that problem. :lol:

[dikledoux]

...something about the groove is in the bodies of the players and I am very sensative to that.
I just like the way you said that. Body language and musical performance have an interesting and varied relationship.

And Otek: to paraphrase Joan Osborne, "Ray Charles ...could see just fine" I'd be willing to bet he caught people's body language through some other mysterious sensory mechanism.

dik

[malice]

Zakir is Indian. There is a counting system to the music ("tal"), and there are "measures" and even "beats" the tabla player learns. Within tal there is a system of claps and waves of the hand that to my way of thinking anyway resembles clave in Afro-Cuban music.

What's interesting about tabla is that there is also an harmonic aspect of playing, not just implied, as with the toms on a drumkit, but actual tuning of the dayan (the wood drum) to the tonic or dominant and modulation of the bayan (the metal drum) with the wrist, much like a West African donno or talking drum.

Dude,

you gotta try this next cape, don't be shy. Or get Zakir to do an ancilary track ;)

I love tablas

malice

[Johnny]

Well I'm definitely in for drumset and percussion (jembe, doumbek, shakey things) and I'd be willing to wing a simple part. Emphasis on simple. It'd probably get better results to just program some samples...until I've had a year to practice, that is!