Key Signatures…WTF??

[62Jazzbass]

OK, I might land a new years gig with a cover band, auditioning tonight. Anyway, the dude sent me a list of songs and indicated the keys for them. Well, as I was working on them it struck me that he either has some of the keys wrong, or they play them in a different key to adjust for the singers range. No problem, but I do need to since I am learning from the records, I need to adjust accordingly. So, just to be clear, I mail him and ask.

He said no, they play 'em like the records, and pointed out After Midnight by E.C. as an example, he says key of D with a progression of D, F, G.

Well, I worked it out last night and the progression in the verse is essentially C, Eb, F. This is what I heard, no doubt in my mind, at least for the bass part. So I think key of C.

I am self taught and on this front I really don't know my shit, so for all I know the line I figured out could be in the key of D, but I had my doubts. So, off to the web and I find a TON of tabs and shit that actually seem to support HIS argument……now I am completely puzzled!!!

Search a bit more and find something that seems to support ME…..Bass Player on-line had an article on this very tune and describes it EXACTLY as I learned it (although I discover that it's C minor, hence the Eb). So now I am back to…..what the hell is this BAND playing. Will I be moving everything up a step?? Could he be playing the D, F, G under the line I learned?? The guitar tabs I found everywhere certainly seem to indicate this…….how could SO MANY people be wrong?

I'm at work, so to the car I go to give the song another listen. The guitar is so low in the mix, I can't tell what is up. So…..

Off to the bookstore I go and I find an EC songbook. FINALLY something else to back ME up...…I'm not going nuts, the book indicates C (although not minor) and shows the same progression I learned.

So now I am back to WTF?? Are they tuned down a WHOLE step? Is there something I am missing? After 20 years, it's about time I actually learned this shit properly.

[Mixerman]

OK, I might land a new years gig with a cover band, auditioning tonight. Anyway, the dude sent me a list of songs and indicated the keys for them. Well, as I was working on them it struck me that he either has some of the keys wrong, or they play them in a different key to adjust for the singers range. No problem, but I do need to since I am learning from the records, I need to adjust accordingly. So, just to be clear, I mail him and ask.

He said no, they play 'em like the records, and pointed out After Midnight by E.C. as an example, he says key of D with a progression of D, F, G.

Well, I worked it out last night and the progression in the verse is essentially C, Eb, F. This is what I heard, no doubt in my mind, at least for the bass part. So I think key of C.

I am self taught and on this front I really don't know my shit, so for all I know the line I figured out could be in the key of D, but I had my doubts. So, off to the web and I find a TON of tabs and shit that actually seem to support HIS argument……now I am completely puzzled!!!

Search a bit more and find something that seems to support ME…..Bass Player on-line had an article on this very tune and describes it EXACTLY as I learned it (although I discover that it's C minor, hence the Eb). So now I am back to…..what the hell is this BAND playing. Will I be moving everything up a step?? Could he be playing the D, F, G under the line I learned?? The guitar tabs I found everywhere certainly seem to indicate this…….how could SO MANY people be wrong?

I'm at work, so to the car I go to give the song another listen. The guitar is so low in the mix, I can't tell what is up. So…..

Off to the bookstore I go and I find an EC songbook. FINALLY something else to back ME up...…I'm not going nuts, the book indicates C (although not minor) and shows the same progression I learned.

So now I am back to WTF?? Are they tuned down a WHOLE step? Is there something I am missing? After 20 years, it's about time I actually learned this shit properly.

Maybe they learned it off of a cassette player running slow. Wouldn't be the first time, except they usually run fast. Maybe they got the chart off the internet from one of the sites that think it's in Dmin. Who knows?

Learn it in both keys, or email him asking him for a list of the songs and what key they play them in, just so you can be sure that you're prepared.

Mixerman

[blackieC]

Sony cassette decks are notorious for running fast. Even enough to bump it up a whole step.

When I was a kid playing along with SRV tapes I thought that I was playing in tune and was suprised to later find out that he tuned down a half step.

Cassettes, gotta love 'em.

[Spock]

Very common to see guys in cover bands having learned the song wrong. And it is also very common to find some charts on the web that are just so wrong. All you have to do is play a few of the chords and you know they are wrong.

Many times it might be a problem where the chord is close, like a Em7 or a G6, it depends on what the bass is doing and other theory things as too which one may be correct.

In your case, if I remember right, it is Cm as the first chord.

[dwoz]

A lot of times, guitar players avoid the dreaded Eb like the plague, because they just "don't understand it".

So the bump up to D F G helps HIM here, and it lets him play voicings he understands, down on the neck.

Its possible that Clapton played it in an open tuning, down a step.


I wish loudist were here, I understand he was on-site when layla was recorded.

(that might be an urban legend, growing grander as the grass on his stone grows higher)


anyway...that's all nonsense anyway. As a cover band bass guy, you have (as you know) about 50 different variables to track out, on each tune. What broken tape machine did they learn it on...what drunken asshole tuned the Wurlitzer or Rhodes...what decision was made in favor of THIS vocalist...who's lazy in the band and who's a workhorse.

etc.

AS A COPING STRATEGY, I always learn my parts "in position", NEVER relying on open strings, so I can transpose at no notice, no matter what foul excuse for a key "the band" thinks this god-forsaken overplayed cover is in.

When an open string is available, I consider it a nice "gimme".

I've been in bands where the leader just calls a new key, just for shits-and-giggles. Or, the band where the lead songstress-hostess had "Barry Manilow's disease", and she needed a modulation at the coda like a crack-whore needs her "daddy".


sometimes, as bassist, you "just gotta do".

The discussion of "which key is this REALLY" is entirely academic.

I've developed an ability to "hear Key" in two notes or less, and to "guess Key" in 1 note or less. Its not science, its not art, its survival.


dwoz

[dwoz]

And it is also very common to find some charts on the web that are just so wrong. All you have to do is play a few of the chords and you know they are wrong.




IT IS ALMOST AN AXIOMATIC PHYSICAL RULE OF NATURE THAT THE REAL BOOK/FAKE BOOK NOTATION IS "wrong".

Sometimes, bless their hearts, it is USABLE.


dwoz

[dwoz]

Here's a "Bass player's rule-of-survival NUMBER ONE".




If there's a horn in the room, PLAY A FUCKING Eb. If not, GET READY FOR AN E or an A.


If you're in a folk/country/bluegrass/newgrass/newCountry tune, play a G.

You're NEVER going to be COMPLETELY wrong!

dwoz

[binaural turbine]

...Or, the band where the lead songstress-hostess had "Barry Manilow's disease", and she needed a modulation at the coda like a crack-whore needs her "daddy"....

Barry Manilow's disease? sounds nasty. What is it?:icon_eek:

[dwoz]

Barry Manilow's disease? sounds nasty. What is it?:icon_eek:


Barry Manilow's disease ("BM" disease) is when you finish some even subdivision of the restatement of the chorus at the end of the tune going into (or actually in) the coda, and you have this unquenchable desire to do a 1/2 step modulation.


Its a fr worse problem than having Mariah Carey smother you with her big firm succulent oxygen-depleting melissmas.

dwoz

[Spock]

Dwoz! Just the music theory guy we need.

I'm not a bass player, but one once told me, when in doubt, keep moving.

[Mixerman]

Dwoz! Just the music theory guy we need.

The solfege club will me meeting in Womb 10a at Nathanial Hall. Please let dwoz know if you'll be unable to attend.

Thanks,

Mixerman

[Statick]

simple answer (which MM already said in his first post)

find out what key the band actually play each song in. learn those songs in those keys. it's far too late to be arguing over who is right or wrong - just learn it their way, and do the gig.

[Fulcrum]

Statick is succinct and, moreover, correct.

But if you want to really rub it in their faces, both of the EC versions (when you hear them on the radio) are in C blues, i.e., C with that minor/major third, E flat, and F.

So they either bumped the song up to avoid the E flat on the gat, or they recorded it on a slow deck and learned it from one running normally, or they recorded it normally and learned it from one of the fast Sonys... in either instance the song would get transposed up.

Inspector Fulcrum

[Mixerman]

Doh! Right. I got it backwards. The tape deck is running fast.

Mixerman

[G. Hoffman]

The solfege club will me meeting in Womb 10a at Nathanial Hall. Please let dwoz know if you'll be unable to attend.

Thanks,

Mixerman


Nightmares!!!!!!


Flashbacks!!!!!!!!



God damn you, Zerman! I'd almost blocked that shit out!!!!!!













Always my most difficult classes. I could deal with the intervals, I could deal with the singing, but singing what I was reading? AGH!!!!



Gabriel

[G. Hoffman]

Oh, and by the way, EC did at least two different versions of "After Midnight." The one from the Eric Clapton album, and the one from the Bud Light comercial in the eighties.















Or maybe it was a Miller Light comercial.
















Either way, the piss water comercial.






He probably had to change the key, after all the shit he did to his body in the seventies.




Gabriel

[Tim Armstrong]

As another cover band bassist, I agree with everything Dwoz said!

I learn the patterns, I don't get locked into particular keys. We often change the keys to suit our actual voices, rather than play them "like the record". My brother even uses a capo on his guitar!

When I lived in Colorado, I was in a band with a guy who INSISTED on trying to sing stuff that was too high for his voice. Drove me fucking crazy...

Cheers, Tim

[Fulcrum]

He probably had to change the key, after all the shit he did to his body in the seventies.

Gabriel

Honest, he did not change the key. Both versions are in C.

I just caught the Blind Faith concert film from June 1969 at Hyde Park last night on PBS, and while it looked like all of them had been riding Henry the Horse, Clapton and Baker looked especially bad off (though their playing was quite unaffected). So the fact that he didn't have to change keys (only tempi) is something of a minor miracle.

[Slipperman]

Bring triple necked bass.

NeckA: E-flat

NeckB: E

NeckC: F

Also bring capo, whammy pedal and bass pedals.

Yer golden.

See?

Solve any musical problem with equipment.

That's why we have Gearslutz.

To tell us how.

No.

Really.

SM.

[dwoz]

or alternatively, play a fretless. Rip the frets right out. Then instead of it being an "E", its "this note here".


problem? we ain't got no problems!


dwoz

[magicchord]

Barry Manilow's disease ("BM" disease) is when you finish some even subdivision of the restatement of the chorus at the end of the tune going into (or actually in) the coda, and you have this unquenchable desire to do a 1/2 step modulation.


Its a fr worse problem than having Mariah Carey smother you with her big firm succulent oxygen-depleting melissmas.

dwoz

I have a music theory book in which the author refers to the half-step-up as the "Manilow Modulation".

[Droolbucket]

I have a music theory book in which the author refers to the half-step-up as the "Manilow Modulation".


My Dad told me the Manilow Modulation would make me go blind.....:Cry:

My older brother got called to fill in on bass for a band years ago. They sent him a song list, and most of the songs he already knew from the band he currently played in.
When he got to the first practice, he realized he knew all the songs in the wrong key... seems these guys had an old jukebox in the practice room, and when they wanted to learn a new song they bought the 45 and put it on the jukebox.
The jukebox naturally played everything fast, so they were a half-step up from where my brother had learned the songs. He said later that most of the time it wasn't a problem, unless he looked at his hands while playing... he'd never played "between the dots" before!

Droolbucket

[62Jazzbass]

he'd never played "between the dots" before!


No shit, that's ME!

I think you hit the nail on the head, adapt to them and be prepared for whatever they might toss out there.

FWIW, I played with them last night and we never played the tune!! We were about to, and I heard him strum a chord that confirmed they play it a step up from the recording, in spite of the fact that he said they play it like the record……whatever, I was ready for it. I doubt it is a cassette speed issue, does ANYONE still use those?? Even I don't use them, and I still use a blackface ADAT:icon_eek: ….I'm not exactly on the cutting edge. Since everything else we played was in the same key as the recording, I am inclined to think he might just be avoiding the Eb, as others mentioned. Maybe he learned it so long ago he doesn't even remember doing this.

[Aardvark]

...I wish loudist were here, I understand he was on-site when layla was recorded.

(that might be an urban legend, growing grander as the grass on his stone grows higher)


I recall him telling me he was not there. You may recall at his wake several of us were chatting with some of the engineers from Criteria who joined the celebration. Part of the conversation included the tracking engineer telling us about the overheads (he wanted 414's, Jim Gordon insisted on 87's) as well as the guitar amps and some other ridiculously cool inside stuff regarding Layla.


Cheers,
LoudVArk
:Wink:

[solomon2]

OK IT ends here.

Went to Bassplayer and reread the Carl Radle interview where they have a chart in C minor for the song. Carl would know, don't you think?






'course that might not end the debate as to where your yahoos might play it

[6x2]

Bring triple necked bass.

NeckA: E-flat

NeckB: E

NeckC: F

Also bring capo, whammy pedal and bass pedals.

Yer golden.

See?

Solve any musical problem with equipment.

That's why we have Gearslutz.

To tell us how.

No.

Really.

SM.

I second this! :lol: :lol: :lol:

LMFBO

Seriously, Slippy, I'll send you the address for the keyboard, in case you lost it since last time you had to send me one.

LMFBO

6x2