Small PA Questions

[Swafford]

This cover band I'm playing guitar with plays mostly smallish bars . We do our own sound, as the size of the gig and the size of the payday don't currently warrant hiring sound. At our first gig, the lead player insisted on doing everything without input, bringing his PA rig down - 2 highpacs, sub, monitors, 1604 Mackie, 32 band eq's, compressor, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure it's a fine sounding PA, if he wasn't a fucking monkey, but he is, so it sounded like crap, everyone said so and since he insisted that everyone else was a doorknob, I sat at the bar drinking while he imploded. It was great fun to watch. The place was packed and dancing, so the bar didn't come unhinged at the spectacle.

So, he has finally succumbed to the intense pressure of being in a country cover band playing redneck bars and abdicated all responsibility of the PA to me. Which I don't really care. I play lots of small clubs where we run sound ourselves.

Currently I have a pair of older JBL 825's, a pair of powered JBL EON's we use for rehearsals, a Mackie 1402 and a Aleisis Quadraverb, though no power amp to power the 825's (haven't used them in years). The monkey can provide a mackie 406, but at 500 watts mono, I'm not sure if it's enough to drive the 825s adequately.

The other alternatives are:
1. get a power amp to drive the mains and use the 1402 as board.
2. Get a Mackie 808 to drive the mains and serve as board.
3. Use the JBL Eons as the mains and get a pair of crappy powered 12" monitors and use the 1402 as board.

Thoughts? Just need 8 channels for vocals, acoustic guitar and keys. This needs to be simple. Rednecks just don't care that much as long as the vocals are over the drums so they can sing along.

[Tim Armstrong]

I play covers in a beach town bar band. Three of us: guitar, bass, drums. We all sing, we run a lineout from the bass amp, kick and snare mics, and an SM57 on the guitar amp. We put it all through a Yamaha powered mixer like THIS ONE (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-EMX512SC-8Channel-Powered-Mixer-?sku=630191), into a pair of Community speakers with 15" speakers and horns. We have three floor monitors (but often just use two).

We sometimes have guest players, and if we need more imputs we run 'em through a small Mackie board into the unused imput on the board. Works just fine.

That's it. Plenty loud enough to get 'em dancing, but we keep it down enough so the bartenders can hear the drink orders.

Cheers, Tim

[Spock]

Yup keep it simple.

We used almost the same model as Tim showed but into a pair of SV112 on sticks. Just vocals and some keys into it. Fine for most of the small places we played. 2 wedges and I use in ears.

For the past 9 months we've been using a 01V96 and using an older power amp I had sitting around. Even the guys in the band that start by putting a big smile face setting on the EQ without even listening agree that it sounds a whole lot better than what we were using.

We can still do the set and forgot mode, but now the wife with uses a laptop and wireless into the mixer nad make some tweaks once we have started. Got my eyes on a set of 18" subs when we get into slightly bigger places.


If I were you, and based on the size of the places I think you are playing that 500W amp might be plenty for you.

[Swafford]

If I were you, and based on the size of the places I think you are playing that 500W amp might be plenty for you.

You ever been to the Kiata in Ross? Look out for the cow pies. That's about the largest room we play that we haul a PA to.

I think the 406 may be enough, I'm just not sure how to judge if it's enough power to make the mains sound ok. The 825's are rated at "250watts continuous pink noise, 1000 watts peak pink noise" and I have no idea what that means. The Mackie 406 is "500 watts mono".

Eventually we'll need more then 6 inputs (5 vocals!!!/7piece), so while I'm concerned about current needs, I know at some point we'll need to put the keys into the mains (we actually should now) and occasionally mic kick and snare.

[Spock]

I don't know that place in Ross, but I do know Ross and that area.

I agree with you, the numbers are very confusing. And just like you we sometimes put in some kick and snare. 500W mono can mean one of two things, either both channels driven you get 250W out of each one, or it mean 500W in bridge mode. I'm going to assume it's not bridged mode, otherwise they would say that. And also guessing that those numbers are RMS as required by the FTC.

On the speaker side, the peak or the pink doesn't tell you much either. I'm going to guess again, that 1000 peak, if you go above that your rip cones and such. RMS of 1000 should be about 700W. But with the cont. 250W that tells me that is to keep it from over heating.

So that amp with 250RMS will not hurt those speakers. You would be able to get away with a stronger amp, but then you need to be careful and make sure you have a limiter in the line out of the mixer, etc. to keep you from killing the speakers.

On the other side, I've not heard of someone say that the amp doesn't push enough watts to get a speaker into a good working range, but I could see that you need a minimum to get the speaker into a sweet spot. However, the numbers seem close to match between the speakers and amp, you should be fine.

Dr. Bob, Bunner, your thoughts?

[mousdrvr]

I know you already have the Eons but these guys are really outstanding IMHO

http://www.mackie.com/products/srm350/

http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450/

The 450s will handle a pretty big room. Maybe worth a look as it leaves things very flexible.

-mous

[Dr. Bob]

KISS...

Add 2 EON's... 2 fer mains... 2 fer mons...

light load... minimal lines... done

The only bitch is your speaker poles, but with just 2 of em... no biggie.

With the 1402 you should snag a couple of 32 band eq's out of monkey's rack... One on mains, one on mons. Throw it all in a slant top roll around... all the mic cables in the bottom...

In/Out/Done

[G cubed]

I've got mackie self-powered SRM-450's. A pair would easily do for for a bar or small club. They also work well for stage monitor wedges. They're relatively compact and easy to move, about 55lbs, so getting them on sticks is no big deal.

[Dr. Bob]

Never heard the Smackie boxes... prolly as good as the Eon's... so maybe dump the Eon's and get 4 of the 450's?

Think simplistic enough that.... even a drummer could put the PA together... with pix, of course. :)

What I like about this kind of system is that you can use as many or as few boxes as you want. They're all the same and completely interchangable.

My humble .02

[Swafford]

Great suggestions, much appreciated. I play a club with the Mackies as mains, good sounding. I think we'll probably go with the 406 and the 825's till we bank some money for powered mains.

[frnjplayer]

If'n I had to do it over I would go with these over the Mackies.
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22&id=339
Same in most all aspects to the Eons and Mackie 450's.
To my feeble ears they have a bit nicer sound in the mids and highs. They are also very tres rugged.
They may also cost a little bit less although the Mackies and JBL's will have a little bit better on the resale value should that ever become a requirement.

[Rosstapher]

...The place was packed and dancing, so the bar didn't come unhinged at the spectacle.

Maybe I'm missing something, but IMHO if the bar is "packed and dancing", it may not have sounded that bad (except on stage). If it sounds like ass, people usually clear away pretty quickly.

Anyway, there are a gazillion choices for "small PA" gear. I would urge you to spend a little extra time finding a "consistency" in your overall "sound" - meaning try to get your stage sound and monitors as similar as possible in the different venues you play in. Then you'll start to "feel" when the mains are properly added (or at least in the ballpark) in the different rooms. Don't make the mistake of trying to "create" your sound WITH the PA. The PA should just "enhance" what's already there. I've had great results over the years with all sorts of gear - and although I love the EONs (our keyboard player owns 4 of the 15s), we've also had GREAT sound using a small house system of Yorkvilles - which probably cost less than 1/2 as JBL anything! And a small powered Yamaha system and ...on and on! As for the Redneck Factor - you should know that as long as you play "Freebird" - even badly - they'll love you and won't give two shits about the sound anyway...
:lol:

[Swafford]

Your definitely missing something.

[Rosstapher]

Great suggestions, much appreciated. I play a club with the Mackies as mains, good sounding. I think we'll probably go with the 406 and the 825's till we bank some money for powered mains.

http://www.jblproservice.com/general_faq.htm (first item)

This would indicate that the Mackie 406 is really NOT enough power for the 825's.

Either way, sounds like you have plenty of other usable gear to choose from. Sorry I misunderstood your main issue.

[Cosmic Pig]

I run an Audiopro 1212 1200 watt 12 ch stereo board with 2 600 watt powered subs and Elite 600 top end. Basically all made by Yorkville. Been using that for about 12 years playing classic rock and blues.

Stuff I know;

Don't bother with monitors on small stages. Turn the mains in a bit so the singers can hear themselves. Monitors just screw up the sound bouncing it back into the mics, and that way the singer gets to have some efx in what they hear. Maybe get the drummer a little powered monitor but thats about it.

Don't bother micing the kick without subs. All you do is screw the sound when the mains are trying to reproduce something they're not made for. I've done it with Elite 2-15's and horn cabs and it worked, but the single 15 didn't. I've heard bands say they "just wanted some click from the kick in the mains" and it doesn't work.

2400 watts will fill up to a 300 seater. I used it in a long 400 seat once and it barely made it to the back wall. a crowd will soak up watts like a sponge.

We play fairly loud on stage so I use the mains to reinforce and mix the stage volume out front. Small quiet gigs I barely run any instrument volume out the front, larger gigs I'll start cranking it. I usually just mic the kick because the snare and toms come through the vocal mics enough.

And thats all I know.

Cos.

[AxeSlash]

Are the Eons the G2 version (black ones)?

If they're not, leave some spare cash and time in your wallet to get them reconed. We see at least 1 a month come through our place for reconing the 15, and I've got a pair with blown horns from purely vocal use (albeit metal vocals, but still...)

If they're the older grey ones, either be gentle with them or get something more manly.

[bunnerabb]

My ultimate cheapo club PA on a stick rig would be 2 SRM-450 or the passive 300 ( I know the horns are a brittle, but so are the Eon ) and two Yamaha 18" SW18 cabs with any decent 450 WPC RMS amp.

Power doesn't kill speakers, clipping kills speakers so power up and keep your levels sorted.

[Swafford]

http://www.jblproservice.com/general_faq.htm (first item)

This would indicate that the Mackie 406 is really NOT enough power for the 825's.

Either way, sounds like you have plenty of other usable gear to choose from. Sorry I misunderstood your main issue.

Thanks for the link. That answered a lot of questions I had. I decided not to use the 406 anyway as it doesn't have enough inputs to get the keys out front. The drummer has an 8 channel Peavey I'm trying to get specs on.

[Swafford]

Are the Eons the G2 version (black ones)?

If they're not, leave some spare cash and time in your wallet to get them reconed. We see at least 1 a month come through our place for reconing the 15, and I've got a pair with blown horns from purely vocal use (albeit metal vocals, but still...)

If they're the older grey ones, either be gentle with them or get something more manly.

I got one black one and one gray one...I've always liked the gray one more, seems to have more head room and it has fewer knobs. I like simple shit if I got to deal with it. None of the situations we play, that band or my other two, ever require that we push them to hard. I play a Super Reverb and rarely go over 5.

[Droolbucket]

Here's a thread hijack....
Those of you who play without a sound man, do you use any kind of compression or limiting on vocals?
I gig with a 4-piece band, and we get our PA set and leave it. We're all good at turning up and down for solos, watching our volumes, and mixing our harmonies. We all get the same monitor mix so we balance ourselves automatically.
I also run sound for another band, and once I get the main mix established, I spend most of my time juggling vocals. They've got 4 vocalists, separate monitor mixes, and invariably the guy singing the high harmony will drown out the other 3. They don't have any compressors in their rack, and I've gotten used to changing the vocal mix for each song, so it doesn't bother me at all.
I found out that one of the members is quitting, and I have been asked to take his place on stage. We're envisioning another "set-it-and-leave-it" situation.... but I don't know if I can get the vocalists to change their mic technique after doing it the same way for so many years. I'm going to set up one monitor mix and hope they'll learn to adjust, but I'm also considering limiting each vocal channel. Any thoughts?

Droolbucket

[Spock]

Those of you who play without a sound man, do you use any kind of compression or limiting on vocals?

With the old rig that the bass player had, no comp or limiter.


We're all good at turning up and down for solos, watching our volumes, and mixing our harmonies. We all get the same monitor mix so we balance ourselves automatically.

Yup, One monitor mix and listen, listen, listen to each other.

On the newer rig, I have very mild compression on each of the 3 vocals.

[Cosmic Pig]

The trouble with limiting is if the loud harmonist does any lead vox.

I sing a few leads and a few harmonies through the night and I find its hard to mix ones own voice in the mix using distance, so I use the old four fingers from the mic when singing harmony and eat it when singing lead. It seems to work out.

I run a bit of compression on the main vocalist, but i'd probably run it on all vox if I had more compressors.

Cos.