Running Live Sound : WTF am I thinking?

[volthause]

I've got an old friend who I go way back with who is now the owner of a local club, and he's trying to tempt me to run sound there on occation.

Now, a little background on me. I have ZERO live sound experience, but I've always been curious about it. I've made him aware of this, and he said he's willing to show me all the ins and outs of his setup, and get me doing shows there once a week or something. He knows I'm mainly a studio engineer guy, and we've actually done some stuff together in the past, so I guess he thinks I'm not a complete hack.

The idea scares me shitless (fucking up a bands show, sudden feedback, blah blah blah) but I'm thinking about giving it a shot.

What am I in for?

Oh yeah, there is no seperate monitor guy, so FOH and monitors is a package deal. There is a side-stage board for monitors though.

[bunnerabb]

Studio is drawing up a flight plan and following it.
Live is seat of your pants and you better know what to do if the wind shear hits.

[clicktrack]

Studio is drawing up a flight plan and following it.
Live is seat of your pants and you better know what to do if the wind shear hits.

Actually, I disagree with this.

In the studio, there are many times when you draw up your flight plan only as you get into the plane and see how she feels.

In live, there is actually A LOT of planning beforehand. Phone calls, tracking sheets, input lists, etc. Whether it be for a small band or a concert in a 25,000 seat venue, this communication does happen, even if its informal.

What I agree with is "knowing what to do when the fit hits the shan". When shit happens, it happens quickly. Managing it and getting things back to plan is what separates the seasoned pro versus the weekend warrior.

[ggunn]

I've got an old friend who I go way back with who is now the owner of a local club, and he's trying to tempt me to run sound there on occation.

Now, a little background on me. I have ZERO live sound experience, but I've always been curious about it. I've made him aware of this, and he said he's willing to show me all the ins and outs of his setup, and get me doing shows there once a week or something. He knows I'm mainly a studio engineer guy, and we've actually done some stuff together in the past, so I guess he think I'm not a complete hack.

The idea scares me shitless (fucking up a bands show, sudden feedback, blah blah blah) but I'm thinking about giving it a shot.

What am I in for?

Oh yeah, there is no seperate monitor guy, so FOH and monitors is a package deal. There is a side-stage board for monitors though.

Well, of course the mixing thing is similar, except that your board mix must blend with the stage volume of the acts to make a mix out front.

There is a monitor board with no one to run it? That could be problematic if the band needs an adjustment on the fly and you're out front.

It's a different world, but I enjoy FOH gigs. There is a certain adrenaline component to it, as you are on the front lines with one shot to make it right. On the plus side, screwups are transient in nature, not like a recording where you listen to it for years.

A lot of a live sound man's job is political, dealing with the bands, the management, and the occasional drunk from the audience who wants to tell you how to do your job. Oh, and the guitar player's girl friend who can't hear enough of his brilliant pentatonic noodling.

[pounce]

i can tell you this. you will learn to call frequencies quickly this way.

you will learn how to mic things quickly, and work with a band in real time (not some perpetual studio overdub psuedo perfection bullshit).

you'll learn to listen for the even distribution of sound through the actual live room.

you'll learn how to talk to a band about turning down an amp in a diplomatic way.

you'll then translate these skills in the studio as you will continue to learn more about frequencies, about getting a live realtime feel while in a recording session, learn about going with the flow, learn to work more quickly in a good kind of way (in a not screwing up the vibe by stopping the action to twiddle with knobs kind of way).

live and studio skills are totally different, but there are ways that they compliment each other. it would be better if you could learn tricks from someone who is good at live sound by watching or helping them in person at an actual show. live sound is a great and brutal teacher. good luck and have fun.

[bunnerabb]

Actually, I disagree with this.

In the studio, there are many times when you draw up your flight plan only as you get into the plane and see how she feels.

In live, there is actually A LOT of planning beforehand. Phone calls, tracking sheets, input lists, etc. Whether it be for a small band or a concert in a 25,000 seat venue, this communication does happen, even if its informal.

What I agree with is "knowing what to do when the fit hits the shan". When shit happens, it happens quickly. Managing it and getting things back to plan is what separates the seasoned pro versus the weekend warrior.

Lemme try another thing:

No Rewind.

[pounce]

oh yeah, problem solving. not a better teacher than this. you'll learn to trace signal flow and fix hum and stuff better this way than any other way. it's totally brutal. ya gotta love it.

and since making a mistake happens in front of a LOT of people, it tends to help motivate you to not make the same mistake twice.

[volthause]

Excellent words gents. I appreciate it all. It's a nice room, the band I play in has had a few shows there. I'd say it'll hold about 200-300 people, so it's not a huge room.

The system spec's from the webiste read:


OVERVIEW

The system is a three-way, true stereo rig with PAS speaker facing and QSC plx amplifiers.

The monitor rig is 4 way mix with jbl 15" 1" horn wedges and a Tascam M-500 20 input console.

FOH

Mackie Sr.24.4 console

Dbx stereo eq foh

TC Electronics effects

6 channels compression

4 channels gate

assorted mic preamps

SPEAKER FACING

Each side has 2 PAS cabinets with 2x15 and 2" horn

Each side has 2x 18" sub cabinet

[clicktrack]

Here are some things to consider:

1) What time are you allowed into the venue?
2) Do you have to set up the system prior to soundcheck, or is it already configured and you just operate?
3) Do you have enough power outlets around the stage area and do you know where the breakers are to control those outlets?

Does the venue know your friends band? If so, then grill you friend on set up and logistics. If not, then call the venue and find out all the details and rules. Where can you load in from...the front or is there a "stage door". Where can you park after load in?

If you have to load in, set up and run soundcheck, then make sure that you have adequate time to do this. Some places let you sound check as the audience is strolling in. You don't really want that, but you may not be able to control this, but at least get an idea of what you're getting into.

Take command of soundcheck as you would the studio. The difference is, don't be studio meticulous. What I mean by that is as you go through your insruments, make sure the tone is good, the level is good and the basic eq is good, but seeing you may be pressed for time, make sure you can get through all your instruments first before spending 20 minutes trying to get the exact right tone of something.

Although its always good to have things sounding great and it takes time to do that, there is a point where "good enough" will have to do. If you're not used to the live thing and you're pressed for time, its more important to get the basics done and have a basic mix with everything there than to have a mix where the kick sounds great, but there's no guitar at all.

Ensure you have enough gain before feedback (audience noise will demand that you'll need to compensate and you want room for that). Once you complete the individual instrument sound check, get the band to play one representative song. Something that uses the typical contingent of instruments and dynamically is pretty close to what they'll be doing. During this song, feel free to go back and start tweaking the mix to fix those things that you left in the "good enough" stage.

BRING EARPLUGS.

Hope it helps..I'll have a few more thoughts, but I gotta run right now..

Cheers
W.

[volthause]

I should add that my friend who owns the club is the current FOH guy. He's looking for some relief help, and that's where I come in. He would show me everything I needed to know, and I'm sure there would be a lot of me looking over his shoulder before he set me free on my own for a night.

At least I sure hope he would. :lol:

[pounce]

super quicky advice -

make vox happen first. you might not have much else in a pa for a room so little.

having the bass and kick, the ass end of the mix, solid so that people can groove and having the vocals clear so people can sing is the key. with bass and vox in place all other sins are forgiven. in a venue that small, you'll have trouble getting people turned down enough onstage, so try to get that happening.

i always suggest getting the monitors happening first to get the band happy and comfortable. that's super important. you won't have it sounding good till the band has performed at least one song in front of the crowd, where they will invariably play at differnet levels than they had during any sound or line check. just roll with it.

bottom line, make it sound the way you think it sounds best (while considering the intent of the music).

being smart about assigning things to subgroups can be a help. perhaps your four subgroups are drums, bass, guitar, and vox? hell, i work on a mono PA so that kind of thing works great for me. it will help you think in the big picture and quickly, and you can tweak the details on the individual channels. but after getting the individual channels done you might be able to practically live in the master section just goosing up vox or guitar or whatever part makes sense in a given section of a song.

i'd use compression in more of a limiting kind of way, it's not squashing things and you are not trying to make their "tone" or "sound" for them, but instead it keep the screaming vocals and stuff under control. so depending on things, i wouldn't be surprised if you you a higher compression ration at a higher threshold just to keep things in line. that and some compression on kick and bass to keep them fat and tight as possible.

ok, gotta run. that might make sense. i'm sure others will add their input, the above is just shit that works for me

[Statick]

hmmm

the rigs big enough that you're mic'ing EVERYTHING. you need good level out front.

live work is all about efficiency. i was going to write speed, but no, its efficiency. as mentioned earlier, you're flying by the seat of your pants and you gotta be able to react in a heartbeat to anything that happens.

so when the band turn up, dont sit there and think about what mics are going where. you need to know this shit already. it's a rock band, so its the same as every rock band. kit mics on the kit. 57 and DI on the bass cab. 57s on guitars. 58s across the front. BOSH

learn that word

BOSH

if doing something doesn't sound like BOSH, you wasted too much time.

i'll soundcheck the kit in under a minute, if there's no problems...

KICK !

thud thud thudOK! SNARE !

bash bash bashOK! HANG ON !

patches in compressorMORE SNARE!

bash bashYEAH GREAT RACK TOM...!

once you got the kit done, ask if anyone needs any of the kit in their monitors... then sort out the rest (guits/vox/etc), i usually go for the hands down method of monitors (put your hand up if you want this in your wedge, put your hand down once it's loud enough)

if something doesnt sound great instantly, you got 2 choices - live with it, or fix it in under 30 seconds. that's all the time you got. if somethings buzzing like fuck, it's either your fault or it's not. establish this (you got maybe 5 seconds to think it over) then either fix it, or explain to the band that it's their fault in a way that makes them fix it.

you want bass DI and mic'd, and don't fuck around with the cab mic there, if you're doing a rock show the mic will sound a million times better than the DI if you place the mic correctly. i know a million engineers who only ever use DI, and the bass sounds shit for it. don't fuck about with the bass. not once. not ever

did i mention you have no more than 0.156 seconds to check mic placements. if you're not happy with the sound coming thru a mic, you got ONE go at moving it, and the place you're moving it to HAS to be correct.

oh shit, hangon, we've got doors in one hour and still another 3 bands to run through... gotta run !

live sound is the best job i ever had, and it WILL teach you how to dial in a perfect EQ in 0.179 seconds, and silently patch in a compressor AND dial in the settings inaudibly in but a moment...

your studio WILL thank you for it

HOWEVER

if you make ONE mistake

EVER

if something doesn't sound utterly fucking stellar

or if something feeds back ONCE

you'll never be allowed to forget it

[Statick]

in brief - you got ONE go, and you MUST get it right. ALL the time.

[clicktrack]

Lemme try another thing:

No Rewind.

Umm...you remember what I do, right?

Live Broadcast from the mobile.

Not only is there no rewind, but after all the surprises on stage during the show and as the event goes to air, others have the chance to rewind after the fact and tell me what I did wrong.

Lol..you're preaching to the choir, brudda...


The mantra of mobile recording, which parallels that of the live world:

"You have only one chance to get it right"

[burnsy]

At least you have some decent setup by the sound of things compared to what I started on in roughly the same situation. However having learnt a lot more I kitted the place out to make my life a lot easier and give the bands more chance of actually playing . This makes me feel old, however I do want to get into studio.

Good luck

Let us know how you get on.

[Droolbucket]

A couple of pointers from the bottom-feeder redneck bar band circuit:
Make sure the board is positioned so you have a clear view of the stage. In a live situation, it's usually quicker to SEE a problem than to trouble-shoot it by ear.... so when the lead singer stumbles over the kick mike stand, and the kick mike is lying against the front head going KLACK KLACK KLACK, you can trot up to the stage and fix it. Or trying to figure out why the guitar and cymbal levels vary wildly from time to time, and then realizing the guitarist's vocal mic is picking up the amp and cymbals whenever he moves away from his mic. He'll stand still in front of his mic during soundcheck, guaranteed.
If you're doing monitors from the FOH board, try to get the vocalists to really SING into their mics during soundcheck... most will hold back. Then, during their actual set, they'll clip their channels, so you'll have to trim the attenuation on their channels. This will cause their monitor levels to go down, so they'll yell at you for more monitor, or else they'll scream louder to hear themselves. Which will clip their channels, so you trim the attenuation again, etc.
I have used a bass DI many times when the guitar amp was next to the bass amp, and the guitar was louder in the bass channel than the bass was. Channel isolation is tough to get on crowded stages.
I once had a high-hat mic picking up a squeaky hinge on the women's restroom, and an intermittent feedback that I couldn't pin down, until I realized it was some drunk at a nearby table who was learning how to run his finger around the rim of his beer glass:Confused:
It'll be a lot of fun, a lot of great stories to tell, and a good learning experience.
Droolbucket

[Jason Phair]

One way to help avoid the likelihood of feedback is to compress your vox on a group, not the channel insert.

[pounce]

i always use inserts on groups. that is awesome and gets you a lot more bang for the buck in many instances (like all the bgv will likely get the same compression, so stick em on a group and go so you only need one compressor for all 3 mics or however many it is).

[volthause]

Damn. This is golden advice guys. I can't thank you enough. Definitely keep up with the advice here, and I'll update this thread after I get my hands dirty. It will probably be a couple weeks, until the H-days are over and things smooth out.

[ggunn]

I should add that my friend who owns the club is the current FOH guy. He's looking for some relief help, and that's where I come in. He would show me everything I needed to know, and I'm sure there would be a lot of me looking over his shoulder before he set me free on my own for a night.

At least I sure hope he would. :lol:

As quickly as you can, get yourself into the driver's seat and him looking over your shoulder. And while it's true that no one wants to make a mistake (no rewind, etc.), it is vitally important to develop the capacity to recover quickly from the mistakes that will inevitably happen.

[graveleye]

its needs to be mentioned that occasionally someone is going to show up with a flute, or a harp, or a viola.:icon_eek:

A lot of the hard and fast rules go right out the door suddenly.

[Jason Phair]

Another subgroup compression trick is double bussing your vocals. This especially comes in handy on singers with huge dynamic swings. As noted before, assign the vocal to a subgroup, insert the compressor on the group. However, keep your vocal channel assigned to the master as well. If you have VCA's, assign one to your vocal. You'll have to play with the "wet/dry" between the group fader and the channel fader, but once you have it set to where you like, you can just ride the one VCA fader, and have a very compressed, but still natural sounding vocal. If you don't have VCA's, you can do this, you'll just have to ride both faders.


It basically creates a post-fader aux sorta thing.

[pounce]

well, vca or subgroups tricks ain't gonna happen on a mackie 4 bus board. :) good idea for bigger boards, though.

[Scodiddly]

Couple of things I've learned over the years:

1. Show up ahead of the band if at all possible, set up the vocal mics and monitors, and get said mics screaming loud in said monitors. Then turn them down a bit. That'll give you some headroom for later, which you'll need.
2. Don't bother too much with channel EQ. OK, on the kick drum you'll want to do some stuff, basically cutting out the lower mids to make space for the bass guitar. But if you find yourself spending more than 30 seconds trying to fix the sound with EQ, the mic and/or mic placement is wrong. Get a passable sound and wait for the show before fine tuning.
3. Don't bother trying to get the best kick drum or bass guitar sound during the initial soundcheck. Wait until the band is playing together before you do too much tweaking, because those instruments really need to fit together.

As much as everybody is emphasizing the speed/efficiency aspect, you can generally spend a few minutes (generally 10 minutes or less) fooling around with different kick mic positions and trying different vocal mics. Everything else will be OK with a SM-57, but the kick and vocal are higher priority.

[Jason Phair]

Yeah, forgot about the gear list. He can at least use the groups though!

As a studio guy, especially, I'd avoid the "get the wedges screaming loud as possible" tack. Make them sound good with the vocal...most musos will prefer a good sounding monitor mix to a stupid loud one.

More avoiding feedback tips:

There's three ways to get rid of feedback.

-Don't turn shit way up. Most desirable, but often not possible

-Monitor placement. Most overlooked, easiest to fuck up. Hardest to learn.

-EQ. Least desirable, most often used.

Use the EQ to make the wedge sound good, not to get crazy gain before feedback while making the vocal sound like a telephone. Monitor placement is just as delicate an art as mic placement, and even more forgotten about. You've gotta take the wedge's curve, the horn dispersion angle, the mic's polar pattern, the artist's positioning, and then a bunch of unknowns into consideration. Practice moving it to see how hot you can get it, and to see how it changes how you, standing behind the mic, perceive the sound of the wedge.

[Scodiddly]

I guess I should clarify why I'm recommending the "screaming loud" monitor setup. Note that I did say to turn them down after that tweaking. That's because I like good-sounding monitors too, and somehow the process of ringing out (assuming it's not taken to useless extremes) seems to find trouble spots in the frequency response of the monitor and also the environment. Knocking out a small number of feedback prone frequencies seems in my experience to clean up the sound of the wedge a fair bit.

Plus when the performer starts saying "more" over and over, you've already found the worst frequencies.

One very important thing to do when you're working with country acts... make sure they wear their cowboy hats for soundcheck. That wide brim can cause all sorts of high frequency problems.

[Tim Halligan]

One very important thing to do when you're working with country acts... make sure they wear their cowboy hats for soundcheck. That wide brim can cause all sorts of high frequency problems.


Well...ya learn something every day. :D

I did not know that.

Makes perfect sense though...


Cheers,
Tim

[bunnerabb]

We'd always put on a baseball cap and ring out the wedges "hat to the front and hat to the back".

[dumbass]

Then there's the nose/cheek ring-out too... If yer' schnoz ain't as big as say, Barbara Streisand's... put your hand on the side of your nose, thumb upward - with the cheek of your palm on your cheekbone and ring it that way...

It's gonna be high frequency shit... so be careful! That shit hurts when it takes off!

[Jason Phair]

Big sunglasses should be checked with country/southern rock acts as well.

[AxeSlash]

Read the "soundcheck etiquette" thread, there's some absolutely essential stuff in there about this. Also the "sound stage protocol/festivals" thread. Although you're not gonna be running festivals by the sounds of things, there's some shit in there that can save your ass just in terms of the VERY basics - stuff like labelling of mics/cables etc etc - stuff you would take for granted normally, but can really fuck you in the ass live if you don't pay attention.

In terms of actual mixing, like someone said: in the studio you have a lot more time to consider a lot more angles. Live, you just make the punters and the band reasonably happy; you're NEVER going to get perfection.

There's a lot more limiting factors on live stuff that can frustrate a studio guy, but just learn to live with it.

One bit of advice I can give you is thus: forget the noise floor in a live situation: keep the gains as low as you can and the faders as close to 0dB as you can. Any positive EQ can be a dangerous game if you don't know the boxes and mics well.

And although it sounds easy, make sure you know EXACTLY which mic is in which multi channel, and where that is coming into your desk. It sounds easy, but when you're doing a headless chicken impression, it's not.

ALWAYS have a roll of white PVC tape, a "sharpie" pen, and a leatherman on you. No matter what. Without those it's difficult to survive live.

Oh and whatever you do, don't get caught looking like a deer in the headlights, otherwise you're doomed. Look like you're in control and know what you're doing (even if you don't) and your life will be a lot easier.

For the record, most amateur vocalists, guitarists, bassists, and drummers are deaf as a post and need 300,000W wedges an inch from their face to be able to hear themselves.

And pray you never get an asian folk band. That is the worst monitor situation I could ever wish upon anyone.

So, having probably discouraged you from ever doing live sound in your life, I can say this: HAVE FUN.

Seriously.

[micguy]

"ALWAYS have a roll of white PVC tape, a "sharpie" pen, and a leatherman on you."

Flashlight! Unless you're doing an outdoor gig on a sunny day, always have a flashlight on you. Do a couple of gigs, and you'll understand.

I think Live Sound versus recording is mostly an adrenaline thing. If you're calm in a crisis, have a good pair of ears, and are willing to make a few mistakes (and learn from them!) you'll do fine. If you get flustered in a crisis, have people always telling you that your mixes suck, or don't learn from your mistakes, well...

I do think that being a good live mixer is a great thing for a studio guy - after all, there is often that "magic" take, and the good live guy has a better chance of having the tape (or hard drive) rolling.

[dumbass]

AxeSlash is right... the soundcheck thread is a good one... even gave me a couple of new things to do!

I really like his point about not letting em' see you sweat! If you're confident, they're confident.

Another couple of point's I thought of...

When you're dealing with monitors make your adjustments quickly. One thing to remember is that you're really just working on a X-Y grid. Say X are the rows (Auxes) and Y are the columns (Channels). I generally locate the Y (channel) first and come down to the X (aux) and make the adjustment.

Then there's the wanker's adjustment...
If the clownfucker who's pissed off every sombitch in the place is getting all pissy about needing shit adjusted in the wedge... and you KNOW the mix is fine... he's just being a total high maintenance wanker... reach up to make an adjustment... but don't. Look said dumbass straight in the eye and act like your twisting the knob until he shakes his head in approval... BELIEVE me... he WILL shake his head in approval, unless he's a total prick. In which case you will have to make the adjustment and fuck up a perfectly good stage volume/gain structure. And if you bark his wedge and his ears bleed a tad... it's his own fault for being a wanker. I hope you don't ever have to work with this type. But there are quite a few of these prima's out there, so at least you're prepared...and all you wanker's are forwarned as well!

Sometimes when you're close to feedback on a mix, rather than adding, go in and reduce the other instruments. This usually takes care of the issue. Then you can increase the overall aux if you have to. It takes a few seconds to do this, so again, move as qucikly as you can.

[Jason Phair]

In terms of actual mixing, like someone said: in the studio you have a lot more time to consider a lot more angles. Live, you just make the punters and the band reasonably happy; you're NEVER going to get perfection.

Perfection sure is possible.



One bit of advice I can give you is thus: forget the noise floor in a live situation: keep the gains as low as you can and the faders as close to 0dB as you can. Any positive EQ can be a dangerous game if you don't know the boxes and mics well.



NO NO NO NO NO!

Gain staging is still your friend!! Especially if you are folding back monitors from FOH, you want to get optimum gain out of your pre, then address your fader from there. This gives you the most headroom if you need to slam the monitor mixes, in addition to keeping your signal:noise ratio approprate. Remember, that shit builds, if you're not staged properly at the desk, you won't be at the inserts, and making it up at that Mackie's buss section will absolutely slay you.


Oh and whatever you do, don't get caught looking like a deer in the headlights, otherwise you're doomed. Look like you're in control and know what you're doing (even if you don't) and your life will be a lot easier.


Very well said.

[Statick]

i usually set the gain so that it the eventual output level is roughly correct (as in, where i want it) with the fader at unity

i've never understood those guys who crank the gain on the hihat mic so that the meters are looking good, just to drop the fader to -40...

i do the same in the studio too (to HD anyway, tape is a different matter entirely)

you get greater fader resolution around unity, so it makes sense to me to get my ballpark input levels with the fader at unity, then any adjustments i need to make later can be made with greater control. obviously with most things that have at least some low-end content, the gain ends up where you would expect it to anyway, with a good strong signal coming in. with things such as hihats that don't carry much energy in the signal, the gain appears much lower then you might expect.

there was one occasion a few months ago, where for some reason i did not do this, and i don't know why - and i ended up indeed with the hihat gain cranked for a good strong input level, and the fader down at -40 or somesuch. having not done this previously for years, there was no reason why i should suddenly choose to do this, but do it i did.

towards the end of the evening, i needed a piss break, and asked this guy who was a friend of the band, who'd been hanging near the booth and buying me beers all night and making friendly chat, if he could watch the console for me while i went for a piss, just to make sure no idiots went near it. my final words were "and DONT FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING!".

i came back to find him leaning, engineer-pose, on the front of the desk, hands on the faders. SHIT. he'd presumably seen my single fader down at -40 when all the others were up at 0, and thought i must have made a mistake, and so he thoughtfully cranked it up for me. cue howling condensor feedback for several seconds, resulting in a blown FOH tweeter. i came back in the room to find a lopsided mix and a deaf audience.

since then, i've never let anyone i've not previously worked with watch the booth, and i've always mixed with faders around unity !

[Statick]

with reference to the "feeding monitors from FOH" bit - the way i set my input levels helps here too.

for example, if someone wants kick snare and hats in their wedge (not that anyone has ever requested hats in their mix!), and i've set the gains as i described so that the 3 faders will all be at unity, then logically turning all the aux sends to the same value (lets say 5 for now) will present that same roughly-balanced mix to the wedge. i don't have to set the kick and snare higher, and guess where the hihat send should go, because the mix is already basically there.

setting input levels purely by the meter, then using the faders to get the mix, will mean a bit of guesswork and communication when setting the wedge sends - if the kick and snare are at 7 on the send, and the faders are at 0, then if the hihat fader is at -40 where on the aux send would the equivalent level be ?

"how's that? too much? how bout now? too little? ok, now?"

the way i set input levels makes sending to wedges a breeze - i have a "default wedge mix" i set up as i go, and 9 times out of 10 the eventual wedge mix will be very close to this.

i send vocals at unity (3 oclock) and everything else goes out at 12 oclock. vocals/guitars/etc all across the front. bass too if its a quiet amp. kick/bass/guits/vox into the drum fill. etc. and i usually send a little more of each musician to their own wedge.

the band play a number, then i ask em what needs changing. its surprisingly common how many are already happy with the onstage sound. usually changes are either master levels going up or down, or stuff i haven't predicted (kick/snare into front wedges for example)...

[ggunn]

Then there's the wanker's adjustment...
If the clownfucker who's pissed off every sombitch in the place is getting all pissy about needing shit adjusted in the wedge... and you KNOW the mix is fine... he's just being a total high maintenance wanker... reach up to make an adjustment... but don't. Look said dumbass straight in the eye and act like your twisting the knob until he shakes his head in approval... BELIEVE me... he WILL shake his head in approval, unless he's a total prick. In which case you will have to make the adjustment and fuck up a perfectly good stage volume/gain structure.

I use a variation of this stunt, which I refer to as The Placebo Knob Gambit. The placebo knob is a fader or rotary pot somewhere on the board which does absolutely nothing. It works equally well for the drunk from the crowd who is sure he could do your job better than you as for the guitar player's girlfriend who can't seem to hear his pentatonic noodling even though he's playing through a Marshall Major on 11. Upon getting the critique from the wanker, grasp the placebo knob and twiddle it, meanwhile, screw your face up as if listening and cogitating intently whilst making your "adjustments". There! Why, that is better, isn't it? Thank you so much for your input.

[pounce]

just like i have the mic not plugged in to anything which i call the "psychology mic", the unused fader is something i refer to as the "psychology fader". it's a classic, and we've all needed to use it!

i have a friend who is house sound at a theatre near mine. his FOH spot is very in view, which is good and bad. at one of the jazz concerts in that space, and older couple approached him and said that it was cold in the theatre. he immediately asked them which seats were thiers, and they checked their tickets and responded in turn "row d, seats 5 and 6". so he looks over the mixing board, goes to channels five and six and goes to aux four and gives it a twist on both channels, smiles, and tells them to go see if that's better. must have been, they didn't come back over to him.

[micguy]

In addition to the psychology fader (and the air knob), one thing a good sound guy has to master is the art of placebo miking (what you're calling the psychology mic) - I wholeheartedly agree with you. There are instruments that are plenty loud without being in the PA, but the person's ego will have problems if they're aren't miked, so you place a placebo mike. The bigger the mic, the better it works - an SM7 works well for this application, just due to its size.

One place this works very well is with brass, and there's a real reason to do it. A lot of horn and trumpet players, if they don't have a mic to play into, will play louder. Having a mic in from of them comforts them - it lets them know "they'll be heard", and they will actually play quieter (which often is needed to balance things out).

[ggunn]

In addition to the psychology fader (and the air knob), one thing a good sound guy has to master is the art of placebo miking (what you're calling the psychology mic) - I wholeheartedly agree with you. There are instruments that are plenty loud without being in the PA, but the person's ego will have problems if they're aren't miked, so you place a placebo mike. The bigger the mic, the better it works - an SM7 works well for this application, just due to its size.

One place this works very well is with brass, and there's a real reason to do it. A lot of horn and trumpet players, if they don't have a mic to play into, will play louder. Having a mic in from of them comforts them - it lets them know "they'll be heard", and they will actually play quieter (which often is needed to balance things out).

And there's also the chance that you may have been in error at setup time, and it turns out that you really do need a mic on that brass player. You can't turn up a mic that isn't there.

[pounce]

my last psychology mic situation was with the OSU marching band. they had a harp player with them at a live show, just a cute little freshman girl and her harp sitting in front of the entire marching band. not for a solo, not for a specially orchestrated harp section, just as another player in the band. a loud loud loud band. i couldn't explain that any mic i put near the harp would still get more horn and marching band than harp therefore only making things worse, so i put a nice little condenser mic near the harp and just forgot to plug it in. everyone was happy. i couldn't explain to that poor girl that the laws of phsyics were not negotiable.

[dnafe]

From my very limited FOH experience I have found high pass filtering can be your friend when trying to clean up the mud in a mix.

Don

[dumbass]

From my very limited FOH experience I have found high pass filtering can be your friend when trying to clean up the mud in a mix.

Don

OMFG!! I can't believe everyone missed that up to this point!!! DOH! (Great snag there Don!)

It's such a no brainer, that when I walk up to a board that's one of the first things I do when my hands' up on the gain portion of the strip.

Yeah, as a GENERAL rule of thumb, there's only two channels that I don't use some sort of highpass filtering... Bass and Kik.

The HP filter IS truly your friend. Just don't arbitraily twist all of the LF out of the mix. Be kinda' judicious in cutting the lows out of the vox, but it's pretty rare to really need much below 200Hz on vox. Most everything else, you can roll out at least to around 100... and sometimes higher. The only exception to really watch out for are keyboards. You don't want to cut off all the lows if there's some really wicked synth/effects patch that is supposed to shake the building... BUT, IIRC the smackie stuff is set at 60Hz and you only have a sweep on how much 60 is cut.

[pounce]

i am a low cut filter whore, and i'll admit it.

yeah, it gets things rolling real quick.

anyhow, there will be some tutorials on running sound and that will go on it. there are clearly members of the forum right now who could write it just as well as i could, so once i get the ball rolling i'd be happy to have input. i'm trying to figure out if a big overview is more helpful, or individual tutorials on uses of compressors, fx, inserts, groups, aux's, vca's, matrixes, etc. live would be better. anyway, it's on the burner and coming up soon. i just didn't think we'd get that far in this thread, but we are touching on that stuff.

[dnafe]

OMFG!! I can't believe everyone missed that up to this point!!! DOH! (Great snag there Don!)


Contrary to my sig I sometimes get lucky

:D

[bunnerabb]

Oh yeah.. definitely.

Anything not bass, kick or synth- (espcially for industrial bands) gets HPF'd automatically.

I actually norm my console with all the HPFs in.

[dumbass]

i am a low cut filter whore, and i'll admit it.

yeah, it gets things rolling .....

Uhhhh,

Shouldn't

that


REALLY


be



that




you're





really






just a low cut SLUT!?!?:Wink:

[dumbass]

Contrary to my sig I sometimes get lucky

:D

I guess it's true what they say about us drummers...
Drummer's and Blind Squirrels' can indeed find a nut every now and then, huh?

[Jason Phair]

Yeah, total abuser of the HPF.


Though less so when subs are on an aux.

[Statick]

Oh yeah.. definitely.

Anything not bass, kick or synth- (espcially for industrial bands) gets HPF'd automatically.

I actually norm my console with all the HPFs in.

same here

[micguy]

One more thumb up for the hi-pass/lo-cut, though.....

I'm reserving the second thumb for the hi-cut/lo-pass.

Although used less than the lo-cut, the hi-cut can be your friend. Got a transistery sounding electric guitar? roll in a hi-cut. Tom mics? Hi-cut (helps with cymbal leakage). Just like the lo-cut, if the instrument you're miking doesn't make sound up there, why have the mic listen at those frequencies? - whatever is coming in is "unwanted". Yes, you have to be careful - sometimes filtered leakage is worse than unfiltered, but I find the hi-cut to be pretty useful.

[Bob Olhsson]

I agree that some of the gear is the same but the skills are very different.

One piece of advice I can offer is that every big budget band I've ever worked with has told me they preferred great side-fill monitoring to floor boxes.

[archtop]

Leslie West made me get rid of the floor wedges, and only wanted side fills.

[AxeSlash]

Then there's the wanker's adjustment...
If the clownfucker who's pissed off every sombitch in the place is getting all pissy about needing shit adjusted in the wedge... and you KNOW the mix is fine... he's just being a total high maintenance wanker... reach up to make an adjustment... but don't. Look said dumbass straight in the eye and act like your twisting the knob until he shakes his head in approval... BELIEVE me... he WILL shake his head in approval, unless he's a total prick.

Ah, the wonderful DFA knob. I'd be lost without it. Even if it Does Fuck All. Twiddling said knob does seem to make most mixes instantly become world-class. It also shuts people up a hell of a lot faster than arguing over the fact that X instrument is already blisteringly loud, thankyouverymuch.

Of course if someone's staring right over your shoulder you can always make an adjustment to the tune of 0.0001dB. If they ask, it's a very sensitive desk.

Just don't get caught twiddling the phones knob ;)

[burnsy]

I have found that DFA button to be a lifesaver along with the diplomatics of dealing with wankers.

"well if his amp wasnt so loud , you could have a bit more "

sit back and watch them quibble