Another Dumbass Question

[dumbass]

It's getting close to real decision time for new? monitors and amp(s)...

The control room is a non-environment 16x20x10h room.

Existing;
Alesis M1Active Nearfields
University M6 12" Dual Concentric w/QSC RMX850 (my BGW 500D took a shit, and ain't had time to bench it yet.)

Here's the choices I'm looking at;
adding: NS10's w/Bryston 2B or Hafler DH-200

Soffit mount mains:
Tannoy 15" Gold's w/Bryston 3B or 4B
Dynaudio BM15's w/Bryston 3B, 4B or Hafler TransNova 7000
JBL 4411's w/Hafler Trans-nova 7000
Adam S3-A

Any thoughts?

[dwoz]

Speaker crossovers are designed specifically to compensate for the baffle step encountered on all speakers. Soffit mounting speakers that aren't set up to BE soffit mounted will NOT be optimal. This is like buying a sailboat to save money.

Soffit mounting mains in a ROOM that wasn't designed for them specifically is like calling your newly-purchased lottery ticket an investment.


Do stand-mounted speakers somewhere a few feet away from the wall. The Adams are probably my pick from the supplied list.


long odds.


dwoz

[dumbass]

Speaker crossovers are designed specifically to compensate for the baffle step encountered on all speakers. Soffit mounting speakers that aren't set up to BE soffit mounted will NOT be optimal. This is like buying a sailboat to save money.

Soffit mounting mains in a ROOM that wasn't designed for them specifically is like calling your newly-purchased lottery ticket an investment.


Do stand-mounted speakers somewhere a few feet away from the wall. The Adams are probably my pick from the supplied list.


long odds.


dwoz

Hmmmm, not quite sure I agree about the soffit mounting.

According to several relaible acoustical engineering sources, just about any speaker can benefit from soffit mounting... even NS10's have been successfully soffited!!

It takes edge defraction out of the picture and eases the low frequency driver loading.

Of all the speakers I mentioned, the S3A's are the only one's I haven't heard, and are probably the hardest to calculate the soffiting for... but with all the great press I keep reading on the Adam's, I think it only makes sense to try to get a pair listened to soon.

[malice]

Hmmmm, not quite sure I agree about the soffit mounting.

According to several relaible acoustical engineering sources, just about any speaker can benefit from soffit mounting... even NS10's have been successfully soffited!!

Probably, but you'd better know a lot about acoustic design to be succesfull in that endeavour. The price to adapt those NS10 in order to soffit them might have exceeded the price of the speakers themselves by several factors.


Of all the speakers I mentioned, the S3A's are the only one's I haven't heard, and are probably the hardest to calculate the soffiting for... but with all the great press I keep reading on the Adam's, I think it only makes sense to try to get a pair listened to soon.I was going to post an analogy between monitors and women, and I erased it because it was incredibly misogynist.

Frankly you have to try before you buy (no that wasn't the analogy Aardy)

I personaly dislike the Adams. I found something is not just rightabout these tweeters. Like the source from the tweeters are not coming from the same spot as the rest. But that might be just me.

As you seem to be concerned about getting your low end, you should try the AML-1 from PMC. It is very serious low end, you won't have to soffit them, I promiss.

A bit expensive, but at least, you won't worry about the bass.

Btw, have in mind that there is an optimal distance between the listener and the monitors, and that this distance, for near field monitoring, rarely allows to soffit mount them, for obvious reasons.

malice

[Mixerman]

I personaly dislike the Adams. I found something is not just rightabout these tweeters. Like the source from the tweeters are not coming from the same spot as the rest.

Are you used to cocentric monitors?

Mixerman

[bunnerabb]

I'd love to get my paws on a pair of those old, Urei time-aligned concents with the blue horn.

[otek]

I was going to post an analogy between monitors and women, and I erased it because it was incredibly misogynist.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

New sig line!

[malice]

Are you used to cocentric monitors?

Mixerman


No, not really. Never liked one of them for some reason. But I never took the time to get used to it either.

malice

[Comte de St Germain]

Are you used to cocentric monitors?

Mixerman

I know what you're speaking of, the Adams are very reliant on placement and at higher volumes the center image can become a bit tweaked if one doesn't have a good placement/room. And the top end can go the same route.

It takes a bit to get used to the way the Adams work but once that happened for me the only thing I wished they'd do is crank a bit better.

[dumbass]

It takes a bit to get used to the way the Adams work but once that happened for me the only thing I wished they'd do is crank a bit better.

How so? Which model?

[ggunn]

Hmmmm, not quite sure I agree about the soffit mounting.

According to several relaible acoustical engineering sources, just about any speaker can benefit from soffit mounting... even NS10's have been successfully soffited!!

It takes edge defraction out of the picture and eases the low frequency driver loading.

Of all the speakers I mentioned, the S3A's are the only one's I haven't heard, and are probably the hardest to calculate the soffiting for... but with all the great press I keep reading on the Adam's, I think it only makes sense to try to get a pair listened to soon.


Speaking of dumbass questions...

WTF's a soffit?

[volthause]

Soffit mounting, in studio lingo, generally is where monitors are flush mounted into columns / walls.

[Old Man]

Hi there!
I am new to The Womb but not new to this crazy business.
What could be more subjective than monitors? Nothin' so try before you buy.
3 years ago I went to AES in SF and spent 2 days just checking out near field monitors. After that I popped for the Genelec 8040's with the 7060 sub and I have never looked back!!! Runner up's were the new Tannoys and the Dyns. JBL LSR series also have a lot of fans. I hated the Mackies but people I respect think they are ok, so.....

Again, this is majorly subjective in a biiiiiggg wayyy. Do not buy anything based on what anyone says, buy only based on what works day in and day out.

Having said all that, choices are limited these days for large soffit mounted stuff...Big Gennys are too much $ as are big Dyns, I know that Tannoy still makes a big monitor, but dunno how it sounds. I would be tempted to go through the hassle of making my own out of parts, but I'm the laziest person on the face of the earth. If I did though, I would start by investigating JBL components and finding books on speaker cab design. Active crossovers by White or Ashley and Bryston 4BSST amps and things could be good.

[dumbass]

Hey Old Man!

I know what you mean... about the only thing more subjective than monitors is choice of liquor!!

The way I see it, there really seems to be about three schools of thought on monitors...
1. track and mix on nearfields
2. track on nearfields, mix on midfields
3. track on nearfields, mix on midfields/soffit mounts

Soffit mounting has some distinct advantages... you put the box in halfwave mode and therefore take a lot of the room acoustics out of the equation that color/cover up what's really happening.

You eliminate edge defraction which will clean up the hf smearing.

Both of which are good things. However, the PROPER way to do soffit mounting (according to a few acousticians) is to match the room to the monitor. To several other acousticians, the room plays less of a role in the soffit mount process and just about any speaker will benefit.

These are generally acousticians who subscribe to a non-environment design... which is what my design is... a non-environment room. So, while it would be IDEAL to design the room around the drivers, in my instance, it's really a non-issue.

I've had some really interesting conversations about the imaging issues associated with ribbon tweeters and they make some pretty good arguments about the deficiencies.

I don't have 20 g's for big Genelec's, Augies or Boxers... much less 50 thousand for Tannoy's big soffit system. Hell, I'm hopin' just to scrounge about $5,000 for something that's clean and accurate.

While I have no intention of buying a set of monitors w/o listening to em' first, I respect what a concensus can point me to trying out. I may just soffit my University's and look for some decent midfields...

[Comte de St Germain]

How so? Which model?

I use the s3as in nearfield mode and they are fine for that.

When I've got a band in there and I hit the couch, crank it they start to break up a bit too soon for "kick ass" monitor levels.

Soon there'll be some Ns-1000s kicking it.

[bunnerabb]

Speaking of dumbass questions...

WTF's a soffit?


Well, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soffit) is quite handy.

[dwoz]

Soffit mounting has some distinct advantages... you put the box in halfwave mode and therefore take a lot of the room acoustics out of the equation that color/cover up what's really happening.

You eliminate edge defraction which will clean up the hf smearing.



This must be (slightly) rebutted.

soffit mounting pushes room acoustics up to the front of the line w.r.t. monitors.

Strictly speaking, a "standard" soffit mount makes the speaker behave like an infinite baffle...but of course, it isn't one, because there's the resonant space of the cabinet behind it.

A ported bass reflex cabinet brings the "-3dB point" of the speaker to a much lower frequency...at the expense of a much sharper rolloff below that frequency. this is often done because the "baffle step" of the cabinet rolls off the low end by 3dB. ("baffle step" is the term applied to the point in the frequency spectrum where the low end stops radiating out into 2-D space, and starts to "wrap around" the cabinet, radiating into 3-D space...with the resulting 3dB drop in apparent level.)

Often, in addition to the bass boost supplied by the bass reflex cabinet, the baffle-step is "designed in" to the crossover, providing a 3dB bass boost below the calculated baffle-step frequency (which it turns out, is essentially the 1/4 wave length distance that matches the width of the cabinet). Also, most pro monitor speakers are crossed over with the consideration that they will not be positioned up against walls.

So, mounting speakers in soffits that weren't designed to be will most likely result in "unpredictable" over-heavy boost of bass.

With a "half wave" mode, as you describe, the ROOM ITSELF becomes the effective resonant chamber for the speaker, increasing in importance over the dimensions of the speaker cabinet itself. So your statement that "this takes the room out of the picture" is somewhat inaccurate.

Go ahead and give it a whack though...you'll tend to go bass-lite on your mixes, which will make it easier for a mastering engineer to slam. You won't hear the same low end translation to outside systems, but maybe that isn't your issue.

dwoz

[Dr. Bob]

dwoz,

OK, I see your point on the baffle step, and it makes a great deal of logical sense. (You SHOULD be really scared now!!! you're making sense to a dumbass afterall!! :grin: )

The point I was making about taking the room out of the picture is that in a properly designed/constructed non-envoronment room, the room is essentailly not as apt to be coloring the room with nodal issues. It still obviously has an effect, though... can't change physics...

... all kind of a goofy moot point again... got the drawings back from the engineer... looks like we're going to go sans soffits, for now at least. The room's big enough to go just about any way I like, but he's recommending that we forgo the soffits.

Since I've not settled 100% on my monitors and we're not soffiting... back to square two on monitor selection...




damn.



So, now where do I go... Genelec's? Tannoy's?....

back to midfield hell I spose?

edit:

So in a 16x20x10 CR, what would anyone recommend for a good solid monitoring system?

According to Genelec's site, the 8050A's w/7070A sub is recommended... any other's to audition?

[Mixerman]

No, not really. Never liked one of them for some reason. But I never took the time to get used to it either.

malice

I only asked because, usually if you're used to cocentric monitors, then a stacked tweeter and woofer can sound very odd in the imaging.

Mixerman