Who SAYS?

[weedywet]

... that recording a particular genre of music 'requires' or demands different or specific recording/mixing techniques?


I think it's nonsense.

Unless the GOAL is to make homogenous lowest-common-denominator, cookie-cutter records.


If one guitar player comes in with a bright clean guitar and a Fender Twin that he sets to 3 with the reverb on...

and another comes in with a Les Paul with extra-hot wired pick-ups and a Soldano head with a booster in front...

surely you can record them both the SAME way and still have one be clean and the other be "heavy"


It's great to develop techniques that work for you, and it's great to share them with others who are interested


but when I read someone's post describing how to record "heavy drums", and implying that this direction is REQUIRED or dictated by the genre, I guess it rubs ME the wrong way.

Perhaps I'm the only one.


there's an enourmous amount of fascinating and brilliant info in Slipperman's 'heavy guitar' treatises.

But I'd bet he would agree (if I may) that it's not at all the ONLY way to record "heavy" guitars.
Just the way HE does it.

[elborgan]

Well I've not read that post but from what I've read on this forum, recording heavy/metal drums is definately different from the way I record drums. Don't you (if you're recording metal) usually use close mikes? and room/overheads don't really play as much a part as in other genres?

There must be a lot more to it than that an all.......

I'll have a look now.......

Edit - Ahh I see your point now! 'Unless the GOAL is to make homogenous lowest-common-denominator, cookie-cutter records.'

Yes I agree, It doesn't encourage much creativity but I bet It's a good starting point for some.

Now I'll have a look .......

[weedywet]

I suppose my point of view is that if you really understand the MUSIC you can make the records.
It's as simple as that.

not about genre specific techniques.

"make my record sound JUST LIKE so and so's..." is a recipe for BORING.

[eagan]

You go, dude.

There are way too many people trying to do the same things the same way, and music in general is suffering like hell from it.

There's a thread going over in REP where it started out as something and then before you know it I'm reading about using an engineer's own in house kit for everything because it's so much better than the kits band's drummers bring in. Stuff like that makes me think "better according to what, exactly?".

You can make a good argument for the idea that you might have good instruments and gear at hand that are well cared for and tweaked with care and skill, but when somebody goes into a studio to record it's worthwhile to consider the idea that their instruments and equipment are comprised of choices that they've made over time and they might just be right for them. When it comes to recording what's there, there ought to be due consideration of how to go about capturing what they are and how they sound, as an individual unique thing not like the last project and not like the next project.

It's great to see how about people go about things and learn from all of it. That's why I come here.

Well, that and the pie.

But anyway. It's one thing to learn from that, quite another to gather some kind of fucking cookie cutter standard templates for everything.


JLE

[M.Brane]

... that recording a particular genre of music 'requires' or demands different or specific recording/mixing techniques?


I think it's nonsense.

I agree. To a point.

You're really not going to be able to make a good mix of an extremely heavy band with minimalist techniques. You might be able to accurately capture the raw sound of the band, but in many cases that is to the detriment of the big picture. Having OCD control over the individual elements of such a band in a studio recording environment is pretty much a requirement to keep them from sounding like mush which is how many of them sound live.

Not that I completely agree with that approach, but if it's appropriate, and good music is the result then who am I to criticize? The studio as a tool. Hell it worked for The Beatles, and many others.

IOW you're not going to be able to pull-off a convincing heavy guitar tone with a Tele, and a Twin mic'd from a distance with LDC likewise no dry, in-your-face, surgical drum sound with a pair of overs, and FOK.


Likewise a surgically produced recording of minimalist music is going to sound cold, and uninspired. Whether it's a single performer or an orchestra some genres need the natural ambiance to maintain the feel of the performance.

Certain techniques are SOP for some genres. If you can successfully break from those techniques that's all good, but you risk losing the listener the more you stray from what they expect to hear. Not that that is a bad thing, but you need to calculate your risk with the final product in mind i.e. is it the best approach for the material at hand?

Given a lot of what I've heard in the heavier genres these days I agree that someone needs to come up with a new approach. That goes as much for the music as it does for the recording techniques though.

I've seen some comments on another board I frequent that left me just shaking my head. The guy was basically saying that old recordings suck, and if you don't squash the piss out of everything nobody will like it. I wish him luck with his engineering endeavors. He's gonna need it.

[weedywet]

but don't you see how it's somewhat contradictory to say wouldn't it be great to come up with an alternative approach and yet at the same time that it HAS to be done this way or that to "prevent mush"?

I don't think every band sounds the same at the source, or that every band needs to be recorded the same way.

that's what makes it INTERESTING.

[M.Brane]

Yes it is somewhat contradictory, and therein lies the rub:

Just how far can you go outside the box before you lose the listener?

Myself as a hobbyist I am probably willing to take more risk than say someone who is doing this stuff for a living. That depends a lot on your stature as an engineer/producer I guess. If you are very established, and respected you can probably get away with more than the average Joe, and not kill yourself in the process.

Unfortunately such is the nature of this business. I'd love it if more people were willing to take a chance (listeners, and producers alike) but that's not where we are presently. It's also not where things seem to be headed at the moment.

Maybe the real question is what can we in the production of music do to swing the pendulum our way i.e. wake people up from their sleep?

It's a tall order, but not impossible IMHO.

[Molly's Lips]

See, this is the great thing about not really knowing what you're doing (like me). You always sound unique.

Not neccassarily good, but unique.

[CaptainHook]

I agree with you Will at least in regards to the heavy drum
thread. I would approach drums quite different to
what's described there, and it HAS worked brutally for
me with heavy, aggressive drums sounds.

OHs and rooms being the loudest elements in mix.
But still punchy, and as aggressive as the references
i was working to.

Different paths CAN lead to the same place, just as
much as the same path can actually take you somewhere
else.

And i actually find it hard to make a bands own sound
NOT be the determining factor in the OVERALL sound
in the end.

I guess that's what your saying though.
Everyone works differently. ;)

[meLoCo_go]

there's an enourmous amount of fascinating and brilliant info in Slipperman's 'heavy guitar' treatises.

But I'd bet he would agree (if I may) that it's not at all the ONLY way to record "heavy" guitars.
Just the way HE does it.

Sure. But I guess we all would agree that the points he made are appliable not only to "heavy" guitars?

[AxeSlash]

I've tried approaching heavy drums from a more traditional way of doing it...and failed to get the results I wanted.

What does this all boil down to?

What sounds GOOD in the mix for that particular piece of material.

Thus, if a tried and tested technique gets you the results you want, use it. Thus, we end up with certain 'conventions' in genres because a technique HAS been proved to produce the results people want.

If you can get that slightly synthetic, powerful, separated sound that people like in heavy metal from using mostly rooms and overheads, more power to ya. You've obviously got some special techniques with all that stuff that I just haven't seen or tried yet.

But, in the meantime, I'm sticking with stuff that I KNOW gets me the sound I want.

I mean, why fix what ain't broke? I ain't gonna get my ass in a twist spending hours fucking with room and overhead mics if at the end of the day I'm gonna end up aiming for the same sound I get from close micced stuff, right?

Now granted, there is oddball stuff out there where you really can be creative and do stuff that isn't expected of the genre. But that's a rarity. Some people like it, some don't.

Me? Whether you like it or not, I actually LIKE sample replaced kick drums (as long as the samples aren't shite and it's not too obvious). I don't like it when the kick fucking disappears or changes tone when a drummer goes into silly-speed double bass drumming. I LIKE a separated in-yer-face snare drum. I LIKE quite a dry-sounding kit.

So fucking sue me. It's unlikely I'd get those results using mostly overheads as my source.

It works for the material I do, thus I'm gonna keep doing it until I randomly come across something else that gives me a better result for the same amount of effort.

Put it this way, I didn't go "oh everyone else records heavy metal drums by close miccing and then sample replacing, so I'll do it that way too!"

No fucking way.

I developed that approach after a string of miserable attempts at doing it lots of other ways. Like I expect a lot of people around here have, I developed that whole methodology through trial and error, and I've stuck to it because it works for me.


But all of that said, if I were to go and record a jazz session, I'd be surprised if I ended up needing to trigger a kick, and equally I'd be surprised if a completely close micced kit gave me an ambient enough sound for a jazz recording. Although this all depends which sub genre of jazz we're talking about.


But that leads us back to the whole 'mix trends' thing - these trends have often developed for a fucking reason; one would hope it's because they convey the message of the music better than other approaches might. You gonna go record a heavy metal record with a very low-gain bluesy guitar sound? Most of the listeners will hear it and think "what the fuck? is this a joke?"

Because it will sound like shit. Yes, it will. Metal riffing just doesn't work at very low gain levels. Low gain just ain't BIG enough and aggressive enough for that shit - it doesn't smear the pick attack enough, and the palm mutes don't sustain for that fucking fat-ass bottom end.

There's a million and one examples, but to sum up my thoughts on the subject:

There are certain expectations people have of a mix in any given genre. Those expectations are there for a reason - they're what people like to hear, because they are often what sounds good. Thus, stepping outside them is dangerous territory unless it's an oddball band who are more likely to have more open-minded listeners with regards to the instrument sounds you present them with. In that case, yeah, go nuts!

BUT, there are times when big guys in the business have stepped outside the genre's trends, and lived to regret it. The snare sound on Metallica's St. Anger springs to mind.

Just bear it in mind: these trends are often there for a reason.


You just gotta know when that reason is BULLSHIT...



Also, a disclaimer: it's all fucking subjective anyway. Some twisted fuckers actually LIKE the snare on St. Anger...but they're mostly not the people with the rest of Metallica's back catalogue and a large collection of other metal.

EDIT: Also forgot to say that a lot of people bash the sound of current heavy metal records. A lot of these people don't actually LIKE heavy metal...thus how can they REALLY be in a position to criticise something they don't really understand?

I don't go around bashing for instance the White Stripes' sound. I don't like it, but that doesn't make me an expert. I'm aware that some people LIKE that sort of mix. I don't. Thus, I leave them to it.

[Mixerpuppet]

... that recording a particular genre of music 'requires' or demands different or specific recording/mixing techniques?


I think it's nonsense.

Unless the GOAL is to make homogenous lowest-common-denominator, cookie-cutter records.




Genre=?

A genre is a collection of similar sounding bands using techniqies common to previously recorded material (homogenous lowest-common-denominator, cookie-cutter record)

If the techniques used to record a death metal screamer were used to record a soft female voice the results were fall outside of the genre. Not only do the tools used vary somewhat but the way the tools are used vary.

I did a metal song using what I would call a "70's Rock" mic set up and immediately upon my first critique "Leester" said my drums were wrong for the genre...

I would say that there is a specific knowledgebase and expertise to certain genre's that the listener who is familiar with that genre will know what fits and what does not fit.

For an example.. Weedy... head to head with Slipperman to see who can do a headbangin metal album in the shortest amount of time with happy clients... Who'd win? The same would go for a top 40ish pop tune...

You can hammer with a wrench but you cannot wrench with a hammer...

Many of the band I've worked with want to fit within a genre of what they like to listen to.

But...

The birth of a genre is a deviation from the existing genres...

So what is really being said is that experts are just nonsense because music is music...

I'll disagree for the sake of the argument..

[weedywet]

For an example.. Weedy... head to head with Slipperman to see who can do a headbangin metal album in the shortest amount of time with happy clients... Who'd win? The same would go for a top 40ish pop tune...
...

you don't KNOW that... only assume it.


plus - "the shortest time" is an entirely different criterion (not that I'm ceding that), but isn't the discussion, so far, about the "appropriate" sounding ways? not speed?


anyway, don't sell EITHER of us short
you would almost certainly be surprised.


if "happy clients" are the goal - I'd say we've both managed to maintain a long, diverse, list of same.

[TSTW]

I would say, since Charles arrival, there has been an influx of people coming to the womb looking for 'such and such sound' or How 'Charles' would do it, or, 'I need it like this, NOW' attitude. This has spilled over across the boards. Quick fix answers.

I shall be careful what i say.

What i have learnt, and decided is right for me, has been developed from time, and practicing, Mic placement, Choice of mic, different models of intruments, Placement of instrument in room, Mic preamps, printing with FX, not printing with FX, using plugz Blah blah-fucking-Blah. I've gleaned information which has sped up certain aspects of my recordings, but no quick-fix-make-me sound-like-The-Dogs-Nuts-now-techniques.

Rightly so, there isn't, and shouldn't be. (This we've been through before)

What the experts do here so patiently, is constantly offer the same sort of info, then point a finger towards the door and politely tell them to fuck off and practice.

I suppose I'm going nowhere with this, but it's something that has been bothering me.

Rant over.

[Mixerpuppet]

you don't KNOW that... only assume it.


Speakin of assumptions... I never answered the question to who'd win :)


plus - "the shortest time" is an entirely different criterion (not that I'm ceding that), but isn't the discussion, so far, about the "appropriate" sounding ways? not speed?

It's about matching the expertise to the task. Would a quarterback be equally as functional playing center? I mean it's just football right :)



anyway, don't sell EITHER of us short
you would almost certainly be surprised. The point was not to sell anyone specific... short, it was an illustration to make the point that not all things are equal. Some people and techniques are better suited for each other. Im sure Slippy could make a fine Pop record after the vomiting stopped. I would be ashamed of you if you had not picked up some skills after 3 decades of tomfoolery in AE but the real question is... are you sought out by Thrash Metal Bands?



if "happy clients" are the goal - I'd say we've both managed to maintain a long, diverse, list of same.

Ok... you lost me here...

Slippy...

Diverse?

Mkay I've seen his discography...

got a bunch of his works in my library...

Slippy is the Godfather of metal mayhem and destruction and he scares me...


p.s Please direct me to a death metal album you recorded and mixed ;)

Thanx :)

[weedywet]

but the real question is... are you sought out by Thrash Metal Bands?



no
the QUESTION is, sought after or not, is a specific TECHNIQUE required to record it?
or might it not be more interesting if every thrash metal (or whatever) band did NOT try to sound alike?

and I'm not necessarily believing that they DO all want to sound the same.

only that recieved internets wisdom amongst budding recording engineers is that one genre or another 'requires' one technique becasue that's what they read on the internets
it's circularly promoted.




p.s Please direct me to a death metal album you recorded and mixed ;)

Thanx :)

no death metal

how's this?

myspace.com/threeyearsolder



anyway, I am off to Hawaii (to play 3 shows for New Year's) in the morning

so carry on bickering without me and happy new year to all

[otek]

or might it not be more interesting if every thrash metal (or whatever) band did NOT try to sound alike?

It certainly would.

Unfortunately, I can't think of many musical genres that are as reactionary and conformist as metal, in spite of the oft-used non-conformist lyrical themes.

One of the problems is what's going on in Europe and elsewhere. The labels have very small budgets, and they frequently turn to a select (very) few people who, if required, can churn out a record inside of a week or ten days. Consequently, a lot of the stuff is very cookie-cutter indeed, with some studios even having amps and kits already in place, miked and ready to go. Bands grow used to this template and ultimately become very afraid to stick their neck out in terms of sound and production.

Naturally, in the past few years this has been the trend for the majority of the industry, but metal has been a microcosm for this business model for many years.


otek

[Slipperman]

.
But I'd bet he would agree (if I may) that it's not at all the ONLY way to record "heavy" guitars.
Just the way HE does it.

Sure.

The hilarious thing is....

I'm fairly certain I've NEVER really described ANY of the most common way(s) I do ANYTHING as far as micing rock bands... at least not as far as I know/can recall.

I DID at one early point say, "Hey!, you can certainly do the old single SM57 placed properly on a dirt grt rig and get away with murder so let's limit our discussions to this common tried and true methodology" for(what turned into an endless) discussions purposes.

Truth is: I go on jags. And I keep discovering, abandoning, and re-discovering various approaches/methods, and it's as much about whim and boredom as anything else most of the time.

A LOT of stuff will work.

Ya just try to get better an better at figuring out what will best serve whatever ratio of "need to whim" you need to keep having fun and get the job done as well.

Call me crazy.

Just a coupla thoughts.

SM.

PS. As a "Fer example" for the entirety of 2007 I returned to the old "2 mics on everything" (57/409) (57/421) (421/409) (57/sm7) (414/409) (421/122) Etc. Etc. I had abandoned about the turn of the century... Had a BLAST all year long on a coupla dozen projects and figured out a TON of bizarre/great stuff regarding sample delays/directional mixers(including m/s bizarro-world shit) and all kinza 'downstream' digital tom-foolery to really get freaky about the whole thing.

[Cosmic Pig]

I couldn't agree more with everyone, in a very minor way.

It's all just more sad trudging to an inevitable destiny.

as in; trudge trudge trudge trudge meedly trudge.

Cos.

[Bob Olhsson]

Genre=?
A genre is a collection of similar sounding bands using techniqies common to previously recorded material...I've learned to look at "genre" pretty differently. It's really a target audience that advertisers want to reach. Posers like you describe do appeal to advertisers, broadcasters and labels but that's kind of a different issue.

Recording techniques work or don't work. It's really about identifying if its working. What never works is a recording technique getting in the way of the performance.

[AxeSlash]

Hold on a sec.

Weedy, I think what you're REALLY objecting to is people saying "THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE!!!" right?

You're not *actually* objecting to different techniques being used for different genres, but more people's approach to teaching shit related to that, right?

In which case I agree to an extent. There are no 'rules', and when it comes to teaching, it is all about making the n00bs go out and fucking LEARN this shit their own way (after being given a few pointers), letting them make (and learn from) mistakes.

But you still gotta give them a clue. You just have to put a big disclaimer on whatever you say, saying something to the effect of "IMO" or "This is ONE way of doing it".

Hence my sig.

I think most people around here DO do that, and with that in mind, I'd like to draw your attention to the start of that 'heavy drums' how to recently posted:

"Still, there might be better ways to do them. Let me know if you find one!
Remember! Everything in this guide is subjective. Feel free to disagree."

There's the disclaimer.

One would hope n00bs would read and understand that before plunging into the depths with a wetsuit and a diver's helmet.

[shhpeaceful]

One thing that I have noticed from a number of weedy's posts is that he likes to ask "why?" and "what if...?" in the face of commonly accepted practice. I think this attitude is conducive to creativity, style and healthy for coming up with something that's refreshing to listen to.

If a band or artist wants their music to have the same sonic signatures of Pantera, Mastodon or whatever modern metal mix topologies are popular, I gather that weedy is proficient enough in his craft to deliver those results...

...But he's also ready to try something different.

So let us resume running around the bush on why you can't get a heavy guitar sound out of a telecaster...

[eagan]

I suggest that the simplest way to boil this subject down in summary is to just consider that nothing fresh and interesting and new ever came from people saying "you want to do what? I'm sorry, my good chap, it simply isn't done that way!".


JLE

[Mixerpuppet]

no
the QUESTION is, sought after or not, is a specific TECHNIQUE required to record it?
or might it not be more interesting if every thrash metal (or whatever) band did NOT try to sound alike?

and I'm not necessarily believing that they DO all want to sound the same.

only that recieved internets wisdom amongst budding recording engineers is that one genre or another 'requires' one technique becasue that's what they read on the internets
it's circularly promoted.




no death metal

how's this?

myspace.com/threeyearsolder



anyway, I am off to Hawaii (to play 3 shows for New Year's) in the morning

so carry on bickering without me and happy new year to all

Holy Carp Fish... you must be really needing your trip coz yur spelling went to the dogs... :)

It's not about bickering it's about communicating different thoughts about a subject.

You picked a dogmatic line while calling BS on what you perceived as a dogmatic position on genre's related techniques.

I thought it was funny and worth exploring.

I took Bob Ohlsson explanation of Genre's to mean sticking to the formula that keeps the money flowing, business rather than the artistic...

For what its worth Im more of an experimenter, maybe it's the ADHD but I can't just repeat the same thing twice because I stive to do better with every step rather than stand on the hamster wheel...

I think this place would be horribly boring if everyone was of the same opinion and held the same position on everything... But those with obsessive compulsive tendencies or whoppingly huge egos really can't take it....:Razz:

[M.Brane]

Tension often creates great art.

[weedywet]

Truth is: I go on jags. And I keep discovering, abandoning, and re-discovering various approaches/methods, and it's as much about whim and boredom as anything else most of the time.

Good point

Me too
although sometimes I'll look at the band or the room or the mic list or the horoscope or whatever and just have a feeling as to what I want to try

Which again points me to that feeling that if you're on that 2 mic jag, for example, it's DUMB for anyone to say you can't record metal or dance or Serbo-Croatian Whaling Songs THAT way


Greetings from Hawaii (where if it weren't raining I wouldn't be wasting time online. iPhone!)


WW

[otek]

Greetings from Hawaii (where if it weren't raining I wouldn't be wasting time online. iPhone!)


Simply.... can't bring..... myself..... to feel...... sorry..... for you.


otek

[TSTW]

Greetings from Hawaii

.

[knightsy]

I see where you're coming from WW, but I think a lot of us need a gentle push in one direction or another just to have some idea of where to start.

Like Slippy once said, "Learn the rules so you can break them wilfully and get away with it" - or something like that.

[weedywet]

Yes, but the RULES don't include genre specific techniques... to my way of thinking

the RULES are about basic ideas as to how to use mics and the room to get the sound recorded.
beyond that it's all about playing around and finding what works for you on a given day

[lebouche]

Good point

Serbo-Croatian Whaling Songs


Serbia has no sea and Croatians have no history of whaling...but what I really wanted to say was Fuck you!!! for being in Hawaii.

[weedywet]

you would DENY the Serbians the RIGHT to sing Whaling songs?

Can blue men sing the whites? (or are they hypocrites...?)

[CaptainHook]

Greetings from Hawaii

How was your trip and the holidays?
Great i hope! :)

[jstuart]

well, just so that a whaling song is included... here's one that we did in a grog induced fever about 30 or so years ago....

Har!, Mateys!!!!
j


oh, ps: tech details as mush as I remember... Scully 8 track, w/ dolby A @ 3 over 185 nwb per m on 207, API pres.... U 87 0n vx's and bass drum 451 0n misc perc. synth di. no ice in the grog....

so much for the myth of analog warmth..... at least as applies to this....
j

pps: you can probably tell there is NO grid on this one.....