The new Toft ATB board

[bbkong]

I was going to start this thread over at another forum, but I have a bit of an issue with not fucking being able to fucking express my fucking self without having to use fucking asteriks (****) when I have something to say on any given fucking topic.

Now if anyfuckinbody has some kind of fucking issue with that, please stop reading now, because I never did develop any kind of fucking sensitivity to people who are scared of fucking, eating shit or any of the expletives I've grown so fond of since I was in the motherfucking Marine Corps.

God, I feel better all ready.

I don't say that for the benefit of my friends here because as you all know, I generally only use this kind of terminology for proper emphasis due to the lack of facial expression to be had in a text based conversation wherein misunderstanding is the rule rather than the exception.

I only start this rant preamble in this manner for those who come here from other places to get some insight on this piece of gear.

Further, I should iterate my awareness that the Womb is primarily concerned with the making of music and not the tedious nuts and bolts of the thousands of glowing boxes and geegaws that allow us to achieve creative nirvana. So fuck it. Read on.

BRB.

[Comte de St Germain]

We're holding our fucking breath.

Now spill it or I'm gonna go on a idiot cleansing mission.

[blackieC]

Don't fucking worry about it brother.


I fucking understand.


The first time I heard a mix of something I had fucking played through an 80 fucking B, I felt something not unlike what you must be fucking feeling now.

Fucking go with it.

Have you ever worked on an 80 fucking B?




I can only imagine that the Toft has the same fucking magic.


I was totally sold on trident until I began working with crunch. Then I became a hot-rodded TAC/Amek guy.

Our TAC Matchless is a fickle fucking bitch but when it's dialed in just right, nothing can fucking touch it.

Fucking nothing.

Except maybe Slippy's Amek.

God bless yer Toft my brother.


Make magic with it.



It's in there.



Seek it out.

[mousdrvr]

Patience Monsieur,

Bubba needs a second to teach his spell checker some new vocabulary, He doesn't take kindly to having his expression hindered in any way :lol:

[bbkong]

Oh, I don't mind being hindered or sidetracked, but I do have to roll my thoughts around on my tongue before I spit 'em out because I have an abiding need to be understood, whether that understanding is productive or not.

For starters, I was immediately flattered to be chosen for board #002. Board #1 was a 16 channel, #2 was the first 32 channel and it's my understanding that I was chosen for this honor because I was 1: the first guy to throw down for one (and waited the longest) and 2: I'm mighty damn close to Gardena, where PMI resides. Ten miles as the crow flies, an hour each way on the freeway.

Of course, this elation of flattery must be balanced by the trepidation of being the first in what I hope will be a long line of happy customers, but no product has ever hit the market and seen no corrections or basic improvements in design to correct the minutest of flaws in any industry.

Already there are some minor flaws in the wind that can be easily corrected, but we'll get to those a bit later.


BRB.


I'm not stalling, but it's Monday night and I'm trying to have some quality time with my daughter this month.

[blackieC]

Love the kids first.


Love of the work comes later.

[volthause]

So I'm confused... do you have the board yet or not?

Oh, I almost forgot.

FUCK!

[magicchord]

I love fucking, and yes he's got the board (desk, mixer).

[Kenny Gioia]

Yes.

He has the board.

I know from a very good freakin' source that it is installed and ready to go.

BB just doesn't know how to turn it on. :Uh oh: :Uh oh: :Uh oh:

[orbb]

Yes.



BB just doesn't know how to turn it on. :Uh oh: :Uh oh: :Uh oh:

Blow in its ear?

[volthause]

Blow in its ear?

Jesus, doesn't anyone start with a nice dinner anymore?

[bbkong]

Haha. Everyone's a comedian around here.

So I crawl out this morning after leaving it on all night with reruns of Reagan speechs toddling through it nonstop for 12 hours and there's a hum in my video speakers and I have the urge to vote Republican.

That's not too unusual, but an interesting change in the room.

Bringing in a new board like this is somewhat similar to hiring a chubby intern that gives advice from the sofa and complains about not having diet Yoohoo behind the bar.

No, wait. It's more like marrying a finicky fat chick. Believe me, I know.

It's about accomodation and fitting things into YOUR way of life and not the other way around and here's where I have most of my issues with this board.

I don't ask much from a board, but it's got to do a few things quickly and easily. Obviously, it has to track a multitude of mics from the big room into the Radar, but it also has to serve as a live board and bounce signal out to the mains in the big room because this space is used for rehearsal on occasion.

The room is also used as a party barn and I have to be able to pump CD's, p3's and what have you out there too, so herein lies the first caveat of this little gem: the bitch says I have to buy a box to direct signal to all the places it needs to go. It has some limitations over the Smackie.

Well, ok then. So, what? A Big Knob?

I've got 2 pair of monitors here in the cr, planning on adding a 3rd soon, the mains out in the big room, the intercom in the house and don't forget the 15" Altec behind the bush in the front yard I use to scare the bejeebers out of the high school kids who walk by every day. I sampled one of the dogs barking and ran it through the wangdang to drop it an octave and it sounds like a pissed off polar bear now.

That reminds me, I have to put a fresh battery in that camera out there.

BRB. I'm gonna talk about the vagaries of AC supply.

[bbkong]

Yeah, AC.

Funny how you can go along for years and not be aware of a problem. Those 120 volts coming out of the wall that we all depend on in this country are flowing at a nominal 60 cycles and only hovering around the 120 mark depending on who in the neighborhood is running any given appliance at any particular moment.

It seems anything you tap into that supply can affect the condition of the delivery and for years I've gone through a multitude of audio products that don't have any noticable issue with that supply, but not this prissy little bitch.

Before I even ran the first tune through it I noticed a little pop in the monitors. At first I didn't give it much thought because new gear can do that when it's first powered up as the electrons get accustomed to new pathways and settle into where they belong, but after an hour went by the pop continued, sporadic, varied in intensity and incredibly annoying. Much like a bug zapper on a spring night and I knew right away that if it was coming through the monitors, it would go right onto an armed track so I hit the freak button.

Six months and 5 grand later I have a board that hears a bug zapper down the street. Fucking lovely.

So I go to the phone.

And right now I go to the kitchen, back in a while.

[bbkong]

Ah, fuel for the brain cells.

Before I go on, I should advise Mr. subatomicpieces from that other place that if he doesn't care for the way I tell my story he's more than welcome to nuzzle my nads and gently swoggle the sack. Warm wet satin chin cloth available on request.

Ahem.

Getting on with it, I contacted Reid at PMI and thoroughly explained the problem I was having.

Of course, before hand, I went through the typical heirarchy of tracking down said problem, which consisted of turning everything off and tearing the entire studio apart till there was nothing connected but one powered speaker on the monitor output, lifting grounds, snipping the ground pin on the XLR to the speaker, trying different cables on different inputs to no avail.

Reid conferenced the call with Brent, their in house engineer and a couple of aliens out near Uranus and we couldn't find a solution for this little popping sound, so like the Texas Rangers, he saddled up a couple of engineers and sent 'em to the rescue.

Once they arrived, we went through all the traces stepping off my investigation and moved on past that point to more esoteric things like changing out the power supply for one they brought, even changing the board out. Pop. Pop.

That's when we starting looking at the AC. Leaving the board and the monitor powered up, we started tripping breakers looking for the offending circuit. The pop remained until we killed the cicuit feeding my UPS and suddenly all was quiet.

Well, great. My new board is happy when it's running on a battery. I envisioned a bank of Delco's parked on my Harley workbench with a fucking windmill on the shop. Not an option.

So they brought a scope in from the truck. We had to improvise a test lead for it, but we did find the spike on the neutral buss.
Very small, intermittent, and very fast.

And very much my problem.

Lovely.


Life intervenes, I'll be back...

[magicchord]

Just ignore the noise from the peanut gallery...
And do continue.

[crunch]

more than welcome to nuzzle my nads and gently swoggle the sack
:lol:
That's the correct attitude! Keep writing!

So.

Semi-dirty power. Fuck!

Have you tried any kind of power conditioner to see if that clears up the unsightly blemishes going to the ups? We've been using a couple of the Furman AR 1215's (they make a little audible hum, but wayyyy worth it) to power the racks, the 3 console power supplies and that very conveniently keeps things quiet and consistent despite being on the same drop as 3 hvac units, a pool pump, 2 refridgerators and a bunch of workstations, servers and switches that are on constantly.

Of course, you probably don't want to see my electricity bill in the summer months... gahhhhh.

Good luck man, glad you finally got yer console. I was beginning to think that thing was "vapor gear"...

[bbkong]

Hubby chores, gotta love 'em.

Fix the fence, light the heater, a quick brake job on the Lexus and the story continues.

Does it seem long and drawn out enough? It's nothing compared to walking around for a week wondering if you just pissed away five grand on something you can't use.

So, problem: one intermittent quick spike. How quick is quick?
About one cycle I figured after seeing it on a scope. I spent about 3 hours scouring the net for a line conditioner/filter that had a fast reaction time. Kinda funny, but most manufacturers won't publish that spec, but they sure are proud of some of those line conditioners. Even the ones the feds use won't mention it, but I did find Furman who gladly post a reaction time of < 1 nanosecond. Gauging the size of the unit to the load printed on the back of the PSU, I threw down another $514.19 for a Furman AR15-II without even knowing if it would solve the problem.

After all, one nanosecond is how long it takes light to move one foot, according to Wiki.

Just to add insult to injury, I had to drive to Santa Monica to pick this thing up since somebody dropped the ball at WestLA Music, and driving in this town is one of my favorite things to do, right up there with sticking lit bottle rockets in my pants and shoving my fingers through the table saw blade.

I'll insert some brevity here and say that the line conditioner fixed the problem.

A problem I wasn't even aware of until I brought this piece of gear in here.

Just out of curiosity, I plugged the Mackie back up for an hour or so yesterday, patched one of my LSR's into it and threw all the faders up to max and never heard a peep from it while the ATB sat in here and continued with it's popping routine.

So where does that take my feeble brain?

I'm not sure, but I'm eyeing this power supply and thinking it has mincy faggot balls.

Considering the parade of gear that has come through here in the last few years and NEVER had a problem with this tiny spike, I just don't know what else to think.

I took the lid off the Smackie PSU and just by a quick visual comparison (you can see right through the screen on the Toft), it's got more stuff in it.

I'm aware that production on this board was delayed for several months because the first PSU's didn't measure up to Malcolm's expectations and had to undergo a redo and suffered even more delay since they were apparently using Pony Express and a flotilla of kayaks to move this stuff around the globe.

It's probably an empty dream, but I hope they revisit this PSU design. Particularly since a lot of these boards are going to get snapped up for home studios and we all know how important the residential part of the grid is to power companies. Sloppy erratic power supply is the rule, not the exception.

They might even save some postage, but who knows?

What I do know is this: power conditioning in a studio is never a bad idea, but until this board came along, I never needed it.

$514.19

Thanks.

This story continues after dinner...

[eagan]

Ahem.

OK, I'm sitting back following this thread in "sit back, shut up, and see what you might learn from somebody's experience to file away for the future" mode.

But, basically... yeah.

I would definitely say these folks need a little more robust power supply filtering.

Just tell 'em a new better improved supply will make all forgiven, and you'll even forgo the fees for R&D testing consultation.


JLE

[FajitaTone]

I'm rivited...


:icon_eek:

[bbkong]

I would definitely say these folks need a little more robust power supply filtering.

Just tell 'em a new better improved supply will make all forgiven, and you'll even forgo the fees for R&D testing consultation.


I'll agree with that notion of a more robust power supply, even though it was explained to me that the board's sensitivity is a side effect of the very thing that makes it sound so great.

Uh...ok...

Unfortunately, on the topic of R&D, I got an invoice in the mail yesterday for the visit by their techs last Friday. Presumably based on the fact that the spike was in my electrical service and not being emitted by the board or its' power supply.

Yes, you read that correctedly, they would like me to pay them for discovering that their power supply isn't robust enough to filter out something that EVERY OTHER PIECE OF GEAR I OWN doesn't seem to have a problem dealing with.

Puzzling, no?


This is a major disappointment to me. I hate starting off what will be a long relationship with this company on such a sour note, especially since in all other aspects of this already protracted relationship I've found these guys to be friendly, courteous and quite a pleasure to do business with all around.

Very disappointing.


But here we are, and this board does sound great. I have a couple of mixes to turn out this week and a band to track over next weekend, so I'll have more comments as the week progresses.



As an addendum, I'm looking forward to hearing the digital card they're designing for this thing.

My LSR's have a digital input and I'm also thinking of mixing straight to the computer using Waves or Wavelab, but I guess that'd depend on the quality of the AD's they choose to use.

[Slipperman]

Very interesting read Bubba.

Thanks for sharing your experiences so far.

I have been considering getting a couple of these for the editing suites/overdub room. They fit a whole lotta inputs in a small space, with what I suspect(and would hope), is a very respectable EQ and a decent pre per channel.

I paid a grand per unit for a pair of the rack jobbies(which also feature a kinda strange but surprisingly useful compressor) and they are really impressive given the price point and whatnot. It's supposedly the same basic circuit(minus the compressor) on the desk, and if they did indeed jam all that into one little footprint... It's really gotta a very impressive SFAC indeed.

I just gotta wait for someone to get one into a shop locally so I can hornswoggle/pay/whatever to track a session on one. I usually know whether I'm digging the thing in about 30 minutes, and rarely change my mind after about 5-6 hours of fucking around.

It's funny. I WANT to like the Toft desk. So I probably will if it doesn't have some absolutely dreadful achilles heel. Crazy how that works.

Malcolm is a really great guy and has put some very cool boxes together in his day. He has such a simple approach to audio... something you see in a lot of the better(IMHO) design dudes. Basically... "FUCK AROUND UNTIL IT SOUNDS GOOD". A mindset which I suspect is lost on a slew of his contemporaries. Many of whom appear to be spending exhaustive amounts of time assembling components which will yield the best page of 'white paper'. Which often makes for some of the most boring fucking gear EVER.

Case in point. The GML 8200. Which some folks ADORE. I find UTTERLY USELESS as anything but a pure correctional tool. And even then... I always end up bypassing it and forgetting to re-engage later, due to the "Whatever, this ain't doing SHIT for my mix" factor.

Hey. In the end, I don't claim to know shit about audio circuit design. I just know what I like to hear and what makes my life easier from a practical recording perspective. Seems like you have been finding some uneven territory in between the sonics and the practicality in your new Toft desk.

Amen on the power supplies. Some cats(including some ones who I would imagine should/would know), aren't that convinced that the power supply falls high on the totem pole in console design. I'm actually shocked and kinda confused by this... I have always been told, and suspected that it was a HUGE factor in the workability and sonics of consoles. I have had personal experiences in which changing the power supply DEFINITELY changed the sound for the better.

I thought?

Expectation bias?

Never say never.

Anyhoo.

Quick question.

Does the desk not feature enough discrete OUTPUTS off the center section for you? I mean... I have a desk I paid $211k for, which can only choose between 3 sets on monitors from the center section. I got another one I laid out $492k for that only allows me to choose between 4. I got a third one I paid about $40k for that only allows me 2.

Having 2 on a $5k desk does not seem unusual/inappropriate.

Then again... maybe this is something which has changed in recent years.

How many did/does the Mackie have?

Not fucking around... Pure question.

In any event. Thanks again for the effort put into you descriptions. Good call not posting this a GS. It's such a persistent political clusterfuck over there now. I don't know why I bother posting most times. The place is jammed with pedantic and parochial morons arguing 'term usage' and 'presentation issues'. Great. Very helpful. This is the fate suffered by those who take the time to post in what you are hoping is a genuinely helpful manner. If you do ANYTHING to make the post READABLE beyond some droll description... yer GRANDSTANDING and the fukwits rise like mindless zombies crashing thru an endless forest of doorjambs to give ya shit about your grandiloquent/arcane/improper/unapproved/etc. term usage and writing style.

A whole lotta THREATENED MUTHAFUCKAZ over there. Hilarious if it wasn't so sad. It's all one great 'Ego Clash'... And as soon as you bite, or rise to defend yourself from such bullshit... the battle lines are drawn. And ya get sucked into a utterly useless shitstorm NOBODY escapes from without looking like a knucklehead.

Ahh me. Sorry about the tangent. Thanking aloud here again.

XOXOXO

Slippy

[bbkong]

I just gotta wait for someone to get one into a shop locally so I can hornswoggle/pay/whatever to track a session on one. I usually know whether I'm digging the thing in about 30 minutes, and rarely change my mind after about 5-6 hours of fucking around.

Meh. Come use mine anytime. I've got a 4 piece coming in to do some Black Sabbath covers with Christmas lyrics. I'll pay ya to track them for me while I hide under the bed.

It's funny. I WANT to like the Toft desk. So I probably will if it doesn't have some absolutely dreadful achilles heel. Crazy how that works.

Looks like this power issue is the only real problem so far. Five bills for AC tax wasn't on my original menu.



Seems like you have been finding some uneven territory in between the sonics and the practicality in your new Toft desk.

I really think it'll iron out this week as I get used to using it. It's just been a pain getting it wedged in here. When Alex brought the Smackie it slipped right in and fired up in fifteen minutes. Go figger.



Does the desk not feature enough discrete OUTPUTS off the center section for you?

I like having a set to work on, another set for idiots who have to hear themselves loud and I'm thinking of picking up those creamy little cubes that Pimp got. I also run a pair of 15's out in the live room for disco night and the odd karaoke session.

Having 2 on a $5k desk does not seem unusual/inappropriate.

I can come up with a work around without too much effort.


How many did/does the Mackie have?

Four. Plus 2 phone outs w/ fader.



In any event. Thanks again for the effort put into you descriptions. Good call not posting this a GS. It's such a persistent political clusterfuck over there now. I don't know why I bother posting most times. The place is jammed with pedantic and parochial morons arguing 'term usage' and 'presentation issues'. Great. Very helpful. This is the fate suffered by those who take the time to post in what you are hoping is a genuinely helpful manner. If you do ANYTHING to make the post READABLE beyond some droll description... yer GRANDSTANDING and the fukwits rise like mindless zombies crashing thru an endless forest of doorjambs to give ya shit about your grandiloquent/arcane/improper/unapproved/etc. term usage and writing style.

A whole lotta THREATENED MUTHAFUCKAZ over there. Hilarious if it wasn't so sad. It's all one great 'Ego Clash'... And as soon as you bite, or rise to defend yourself from such bullshit... the battle lines are drawn. And ya get sucked into a utterly useless shitstorm NOBODY escapes from without looking like a knucklehead.

Thought I'd quote that too so it'd get said twice.

I really think this board is going to work out fine. I'm gonna give a beating it'll never forget and start collecting API's while I'm doing it.


Oh, I wasn't kidding about the Sabbath session. It's yours, baby.

Come get it!

[alanhyatt]

Hello to all. I hope I am not intruding here, and if I am not wanted here, I will not post and delete this one...

It was very unfortunate that bbkong had issues with his power supply. We sent up Brent Casey and David Brown(lead tech for Cherokee LA for 20 years). Actually Dave still does all of Cherokee's work, but it seems like many studio's, Cherokee will end up going by the wayside, so Dave now works for us but still does side jobs.

We wanted to find a problem with bbkongs console, but did not. The ATB draws a good deal more current than a Mackie does and taxes the AC even more. The power supply that comes with the ATB is very well built. Our delay on the supply was the vendor getting us the wrong transformer. The transformer has three taps and is quite beefy. It will run all day long and only get lukewarm. We do not believe there is any current problem with the supply, but some places have AC issues that effect gear differently. Those AC issues have to be right and not crap lighting out the outlet with huge spikes.

As for the console, it is what it is. Yes, it could have had 6 alternate monitor controls, more two track inputs and probably a lot more...but we did this for a price, at the same time not sacrificing Malcolm's design ideas and quality. It is very well built, and works as it was intended and the EQ is Trident all the way. I would think bbkong would agree with all of this outside his power issues.

We expect a lot of small(since I can use fuck on this site) fuckups along the way as each console gets interfaced to all kinds of things, but we have delivered some 20 consoles and this is the only one that had noise from the AC...Why...well Dave Brown tested it with the scope and said the AC had all kinds of shit in it so that is why. Why the Mackie does not let it through...who knows. In the end, I think bbkong will like the ATB alot more than the Mackie when his power issue is resolved.

Neve charges $380,00 per hour to send guys up to troubleshoot problems. We sent two guys to his home over an hour away in traffic. Had a problem existed, there would be no charge. Anytime we have to go out to a studio to find problems that are not console related, we will charge. All of you must expect this.

The console is not a budget designed console. It is a serious piece of kit at a "budget price". You can not expect to see every feature you would like at that price. We were very clear about what the console offered, and if a customer wants more, then the ATB may not be for them.

I am here to tell you the console is designed right. The power supply is not underdesigned, nor does it have a problem. If it did, we would have heard from all 20 people that are using them now.

Once again, I am sympathetic to bbkong's issues, but they are out of my control, and not the fault of the console. I am sure he is angry, but you can not expect to have service in your home for free if there is no fault to the product.

I would not expect Ford or Toyota to come to my home and replace an engine for free after they found out I filled the tank with water.. Bad analogy, maybe...

So, if all of this is an intrusion, I am sorry. I am not pimping or trying to sell our console here...only addressing an issue that was not our fault.... If I am welcome here, I am happy to help anyway I can.

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
www.pmiaudio.com
e-mail: alan@pmiaudio.com
toll free: 877-563-6335

[Pimp-X]

If your PSU design cannot cope with switching transients, and any other transients for that matter that are present in almost every area of the grid, in every country, everywhere - then you have a problem.

That BBKong's other gear was immune to these transients is very telling. This is a clear indicator, at least to me, that the design needs enhancing. If, perhaps, less expensive - less advanced - less impressive kit DOES have superior PSU line filtering then yes, you have work to do.

Citing that the board is a superior product, more sensitive, whatever - inconsequential. You have power supply filtering issues. A customer having to reach into his pockets for a power conditioner because of sensitivities that should not exist in only ONE piece of kit in a studio - sets off alarm bells.

And it doesn't matter what corner of the world you are in - bad power is bad power, and professional level gear is designed to cope with this reality. If your gear is not coping, there is an inadequacy that needs addressing.

I hope to hear one of these boards soon, though, being stranded in the South Pacific as I am, it could take a while. No matter, I'm sure I'll darken BBKong's door again next summer!

-t

[malice]

Alan,

First, let me welcome you to our forum. You, as any manufacturer or distributor are indeed welcome here.

I do think that BBkong clearly stated his enthousiasm toward this new Toft Console. Another acclaimed professional and Neve owner of this forum already stated similar enthousisam about Malcom Toft creations, so I think that you shouldn't feel bad about small constructive criticism concerning BBkong's experience (and I know you don't mind actually).

This is a new product.

The fact that you sent your best techs to verify desk #002 speaks volumes about your legitimate concerns in getting certain nothing within the console is to be held responsible for the slightest noise "onboard". And that is exactly what I would have done if I had your responsibilities.

I have no doubt Neve charges a fee for sending techs on a line that has been proven stable and reliable : and again, I don't doubt this console couldn't shortly be considered as extremely reliable and great.

But between you and me ...

Can you tell us how long BBkong waited for this amazing item to be delivered ?

Couldn't PMI reconsider their politics for customers that have been THAT patient ?

Just between you and me ...

Denis Moulin
aka malice
administrator of "the Womb"

[Aardvark]

...We expect a lot of small (since I can use fuck on this site) fuckups along the way...


Hey...who the fuck said you could say fuck?:lol: :lol:


Alan...you are more than welcome to come by and talk about your products and product services...even without buying ad space!

I will leave power supply discussions to those more knowledgeable than me but I might be curious as to why you send out two top techs to a small install site.

If I call the plumber, I don't expect a bill for two master plumbers...maybe a master plumber and the poor apprentice who actually does the work but not two master plumbers.

If you sent them on your dime it is an admirable approach to customer relations but wouldn't one suffice and be justifiable from a billing standpoint?

Either way we still don't have a damn review yet from Bubba so please ship me a version ASAP and I will give you an immediate evaluation, an annual evaluation and a tri-annual evaluation...I have my own power conditioning so no sweat eh!!


Thanks for dropping in with your views, hope to see you more often.



Cheers,
Aardvark

:Wink: :Wink:

[Kris]

Maybe not my business, but I also think you might consider giving this guy a break here in the interests of good PR... Alan, would you buy a ford or toyota on a "Pilot program"?

Cheers,

ps... page me when we get down to how this thing actually SOUNDS!

[bbkong]

... I am sure he is angry, but you can not expect to have service in your home for free if there is no fault to the product.

I would not expect Ford or Toyota to come to my home and replace an engine for free after they found out I filled the tank with water.. Bad analogy, maybe...


C'mon Alan, I'm not angry, just disappointed to find this problem with an otherwise excellent product and already out of pocket for a power conditioner I never needed before.

I don't know about Toyota, but Ford would likely ask 'oh, you wanted a steering wheel with that?'. :lol:

Again, I'm not complaining, just reporting. I wasn't expecting to spend almost another thousand dollars to get this thing up and running.

It's only fair that people should know that there may be an additional tax attached to this unit since it has a low tolerance for something so ubiquitous as dirty power. Also, it should be noted that most potential users of this gear don't have a scope to exam their own power supply and very well could be taking a shot in the dark when considering this purchase.

And welcome to the Womb. We don't cotton to no steenking astericks here. :D

I'm still ringing things out in the room and changing a few things to accomodate this beast, but I'll continue to share my impressions here since a few of my friends are interested in this board.

[eagan]

Alan, I think you definitely made a right step forward in coming here to address this and face this crowd. Extra points for addressing it like a real human, and not in some sort of corporate weasel speak song and dance mode, as is so popular these days.

It's stating the obvious a little bit, at least in this setting, but it's often lost on businesses these days that any business, manufacturing or service, will have some glitches and mistakes and problems, what makes the difference is how that stuff is dealt with. It appears you guys have the general right idea.

Having said that, sitting here observing at a distance, I still see problems here.

My eyebrows also went up when I took a glance at the Toft website and saw "pilot program". OK, that tells a person something, and given the nature of the kind of gizmo we're talking about, manufacturing scale and number of customers, and the nature of the kind of customer and the end user purpose of the stuff, it's not just understandable that there will be some bugs, glitches, and plain simple goofs and oversights that will turn up in the early stages as new finished pieces are delivered and go into use. It's to be expected.

Which is where we smack hard into a problem when people see a situation like this, and one of your first customers hits an immediate problem that makes the device completely unusable for the moment, and they find themselves looking at an invoice for a service call from not just one, but two techs.

It's clearly a case of "a work in progress". In this case, the in person visit to the customer was local. OK, so driving in southern California may be an ordeal and a story in itself. But you still didn't fly guys in cross country or something.

I understand you guys are trying to make a good product and still make it available at "modest budget" prices, and there are serious challenges in that. Never the less, what you still have here is a case in which you have a customer who, if he's treated right and finds the gear does its job well, will probably be one of the best unofficial PR reps you guys could ask for.

And it's a case where the essence is that you have a guy paying for the priviledge of discovering any glitches and flaws in the product doing in-field applications testing for you.

My personal opinion here is that this guy doesn't owe you for a service call. You guys should thank him for turning up a problem that is a simple real-world fact of life, that affected the device at hand, apologize to him for the trouble, consider the travel and time of the techs as part of development costs, and fix this.

OK, so only one of 20 current new users reported this problem.

That's 5 percent of your customers for this beast so far. I wouldn't call that acceptable. What I mean is, that might be understandable in terms of how many problems you might find in these circumstances, maybe even doing pretty well, but that's a bunch different matter than dismissing it as "not our problem". That's a small percentage of users with a problem to fix. That needs to be fixed. Not disregarded as just par for the course.

This isn't cranking out a billion cheap TV sets and figuring that to keep manufacturing costs down, a process that lets a few duds through is acceptable, people will just return to Behemoth Discount Chain and return it for another one, and you write off a few turds.

This is something with an inherently relatively small customer base. A group of, by necessity, very fussy people. Using a product that, by its basic nature, is to be used as part of a large complex system, and in this case, it will be the most central and important part of that system. Problems in it affect everything.

In this case, Tim (Pimp-X) already hit the nail on the head. It's very simple and straightforward, from an end user perspective. You can say what you like about the challenges of keeping the costs down and still making a high quality audio device, and insist the current power supply is adequate most of the time, but the reality is, if that power supply has an output that is anything other than a dead-flat line on the scope of pure DC voltage at exactly the intended voltage at all times, you have some improvement to do on that power supply. Yes, that sucks, it's no fun, it's a setback, it's more work and time and money. It blows goats.

It still comes down to one basic principle. Don't ever make that your customer's problem.

Good luck, I do wish you and your company well, and I hope we'll keep seeing you around here.

Just treat Bubba right.


JLE

[Mixerman]

**** is such a great word. (http://thewvsr.com/deadwood.htm)

Alan, good to have you here.

Looks like a hell of a lot of console for the price. I'm going to have to take a trip up to Glendale and kick the tires a bit. I'll wait until the current power issues have been satisfactorily sorted, of course.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

P.S. Have you signed up for Analogconsole.com yet?

[magicchord]

I agree. Bbkong could be your most valuable beta tester.
And fixing the power supply might turn out to be a simple matter.
Just don't fall into the trap of assuming your product is flawless and the customer has to be at fault.

[prmntwaves]

I think both Alan & Bubba are fortunate that this problem occured so freakin' close to the factory..."over an hour away in traffic" isn't really that far (especially in LA) considering this problem could have occured in Frisco, or Leeds, or Burlington (Vermont or Iowa, take your pick).

If it didn't happen so close then how do you troubleshoot this popping sound? Board exchanges, power supply exchanges, shipping charges, exasperation on both sides, angry posts on public forums, etc.

Bubba's out the $$ for a conditioner (which he's taken very well by the way -- I'd have probably wanted my money back on the board and gone back to the Mackie) and PMI has line of questioning to ask about when this issue turns up in board in a less accessible location.

[rafmax]

Hello :Coolio:

What about sound reviews ?? What do other owners (sorry for BBkong) have to report about "the" sound of ATB ?

I want to know more :Roll eyes:

Thanks.
Raf.

[magicchord]

Patience, my child.

[bbkong]

It sounds great, goober.

Throw down 5K and check it out yourself. No, make that 5.5K.

You won't find anything that sounds better for the price.

[rafmax]

Patience, my child.

:D

[alanhyatt]

And it doesn't matter what corner of the world you are in - bad power is bad power, and professional level gear is designed to cope with this reality. If your gear is not coping, there is an inadequacy that needs addressing.

-t

With all due respect, I would ask you to tell me what professional gear is designed to cope with this. I do agree bad power is bad power, that is one of the main reasons touring companies use generators instead of tying into the grid...not to mention the loss of power but the rigs are just not equipped to handle arcs of electricity coming from the power source.

Recording studios use their own filtering devices and isolated grounds. I would expect that if they did not, they would get the same results Joe did on his console. Please know this is the only case of this nature and does not appear on any other console.

Once again, I do not mean to diminish your expertise in this area, and I am not being argumentative...but I do not know what your expertise is on all of this is. I have represented some of the top manufactures in Pro Audio during the 25 years I owned AMH Sales in Southern California. I represented AKG, Lexicon, Sony, TC Electronics, EAW, Allen & Heath, Crest Audio and lots more...They never designed products to cope with the kind of spikes [BBKong] had.


Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group

[pianodano]

My first post here. Yes, allow for isolation and voltage regulators in the equation. Works out something like this.

Mixer was 5249.00
iso 1700.00
volt reg 1500.00
meters ?? 1200.00 (guess)
digi card ?? 600.00 (guess)
bump boxes 1500.00 (I can't figure out if I need them to use the d/outs to 24 tracks of tape but, it appears to be the case).
Mixer stand 600.00
TT patchbay1200.00
estimated- $13,549.00 what I'll have in mine.

I damn well hope it will be a serious mixer.

Regards,

Danny

[prmntwaves]

Once again, I do not mean to diminish your expertise in this area, and I am not being argumentative...but I do not know what your expertise is on all of this is. I have represented some of the top manufactures in Pro Audio during the 25 years I owned AMH Sales in Southern California. I represented AKG, Lexicon, Sony, TC Electronics, EAW, Allen & Heath, Crest Audio and lots more...They never designed products to cope with the kind of spikes [BBKong] had.


Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group

I guess the question then becomes, why didn't this manifest itself in BBKong's previous console(s)?

Maybe it did but went unnoticed? Or perhaps this is a seasonal (i.e. Christmas lights) issue?

[pounce]

very happy to see allan here, please stay and post!

since i already have a furman balanced power unit for my room i know my power is in good shape. so for five grand i could have a hell of a board.

looks great. i'm a little jealous. still anxious to hear more reports on the boards working now that the power issue has been tackled.

[magicchord]

Or could it be that Bud Light vending machine Bubba put in his front yard? :D

[alanhyatt]

Or could it be that Bud Light vending machine Bubba put in his front yard? :D

Could be...but no beer was offered to my guys...:Wink:

{Pounce inadvertantly edited this post. I have made the same mistake a few times myself...his response is down below....Aardvark}

[dnafe]

I'm sure for a nominal service charge he'll gladly invite the boys back for a beer

:icon_eek: :Wink: :D

[magicchord]

Well, you know what beer spills can do to a console... :lol:

[pounce]

Could be...but no beer was offered to my guys...:Wink:

alan, that's the most wrong thing in this thread.

i thought bubba handed people a beer and some barbeque immediately upon entry.

[padboy]

Greets Alan. I also applaud you for doing your best to keep this ember from turning into a clusterfuck. However.

I, along with Pimp-X and Otek's primary reason for our mini-marsh invasion (will it be mini-womb invasion next year?), besides getting shitfaced on a regular basis, was to wire up the ATB.

That was last June. But if a new product has issues, it's best to fix them all before it ships. I understand that. Boy howdy, do I.

For the moment I work for a company that is currently having serious QC issues, and we are paying through the nose for it. Not the customer's nose, ours. It's almost the same deal, actually less of a percentage, more like 2%. But it's our fuckup, all of our product passed muster at the factory, and the problems manifested themselves at customer sites.

I have flown all over North America for the past 3 years trying to figure out why product X Y or Z runs like a swiss watch everywhere but site A. Same hookup, same configurations, same everything at sites B-Z, yet it don't work right at site A.

It's very frustrating sometimes. Most of the time there's a *Bingo* moment, but not always. The customers all are basically in the same fraternity (kind of like here), and when a vendor such as us has a problem with a product, it travels like wildfire.

We've had customers send the 'fucking POS' back, followed by other customers cancelling orders for said product, because of feedback on lists like this. Some times I am able to quell rumors and stop shit like this from happening. 30 years of knowing most of the guys in the broadcasting biz helps. I've been a customer, a vendor, and a systems integrator. All of these jobs have their good moments, and some not so good.

This situation is not a good thing. As a Customer Service God, it frustrates me greatly when I can't fix something. Mind you, I'm dealing with a lot of finger pointing between all of the other vendors involved in any particular project. System Integration is a constant war. Some days you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

In this case, the bear happens to be the power company, and I would consider that to be a big ass bear that is not going to be eaten by you. And as a power company, they aren't gonna give a shit.

You have many options in this case. If it was under my direction, I'd do some more deep thought, and figure out what the furman does to cure the issue that your current PSU/power buss in the board doesn't. I think I know bbkong pretty darn well, he's even older than me, aardy and slippy, he's even from oklahoma, and by golly, if he can hear an issue with the board, y'all got a serious problem.

I've seen pics of the board, I went to the website, and man oh man, this is a system that I really really want. My dearly departed Linda would have bought the damn thing for me simply because it matches the wood floors in my toyroom. The pricepoint is unbelievable, and my trailer park customers don't need all the separate feeds that bubba's much more picky ass harley drivers do.

Anyway.

My company spares no expense sending me and several others every fucking where on the planet to fix issues with our customers. At our expense. The company has grown 500% in the past 3 years, and support is one of the major reasons for our growth. Sometimes it's us, sometimes it's *them*. In our community, all of us try to resolve the issue together. We all want to sell more shit, and try hard to work together to make that happen.

I don't think you have that option, but that's actually a good thing. The ball is totally in your court.

Before this gets anymore out of hand, perhaps you should rethink the costs incurred to your owner of serial #002, and nip this problem in the bud asap. I personally know this is never easy, but it's what ya gotta do if you would like to stay in bidness.

Sincerely,

Peter D Abrams
Senior Systems Engineer
Callahan Fl.
aka SantaPad

[pounce]

the conundrum is that while i think every studio should have some sort of power conditioning, i also think that all pro gear like should easily handle the kind of power the average user will throw at it. and that power is likely to be a little dirty. we all know that most pro gear can handle "less than perfect" power and roll with it. i'm not entirely sure i know where the blame on this goes. clearly, it's a good sounding piece of kit that is likely to sell like hotcakes. i wish them the best. but it would be better if it inherently addressed normal power right out of the wall. lots of psu's do. nonetheless, i'm happy to see alan here and happy to hear that after power conditioning bubba is happy with the console.

[dnafe]

I think the bottom line is, is $300 worth the shitstorm of bad PR they're gonna receive over this little incident?

This is a small community and word travels fast.

Don

[otek]

I have worked with Trident boards through most of my engineering career, and I love those things. So you might imagine I was a bit excited to see this console coming out on the market.

Someone was saying a one hour drive is not too far to keep a customer happy, and I will have to agree. Though you might wanna consider the problem once these consoles start shipping worldwide, Glendale isn't all that far if you compare to Stockholm or Kiruna.

And if power can get sorta sketchy in sunny California, how about Sweden, where winter temps routinely peg out a few degrees south of Frosty the Snowman?

Where I come from, studios and projects have much lesser budgets than is typical in LA or New York. The way I see it, this board could be a serious contender to the Mackie ilk in Scandinavia as well as in other places in Europe.

This problem will come up sooner or later. Woudln't it be better to fix it at this early stage?



Cheers,

otek

[bbkong]

Could be...but no beer was offered to my guys...:Wink:


Ah, contrare, mein freud.

I keep a fully stocked bar and NO ONE escapes my hospitality.

They only missed out on ribs because they showed up late for lunch and the smoker was already cold.

[dwoz]

well, seems that I'm the last of the admins to personally welcome Alan to the party.

Of course, I'm going to pile on and say power supply yadda yadda yadda, and so what if there's a 55 ft ham radio tower next door, a cat tangled in the intermittent electric fence on the other side, a welder in the shop across the street, and a NORAD radar installation over there behind that fence.

My sense is that this state of affairs is far more common that my self-indulgent ironic writing style alludes to...

For the most part, it sounds like a simple thing like an extra big fat ferric choke on the 120v side would be the trick? Wouldn't it be funny if it was just that simple.

Then again, it is the LA environs. Someone in the neighborhood was probably running their 3 amp nosehair trimmers through the deep dark forest.

dwoz

[blackieC]

My knee-jerk-reactionary-pick-a-side-and-pitch-a bitch side is kicking my ass right now but....



I can easily see both sides of this.


I understand Alan's side of this because he offers a product that is by all accounts excellent and threw two of his techs at a problem that in the end turned out not to be caused by the product.

I also understand that the product did not avert faults in a pre-existing condition that other products had been able to avert.

Conundrum.

Alan, it may be well worth the extra cost ,understandably passed on to the end user, to develop a PSU that can deliver in less than ideal conditions. You already offer a desk that outperfroms pretty much anything else in it's price point. Who would be justified to complain about a few extra bones if the power supply could operate in less than ideal conditions?

Bubba, perhaps a compromise can be reached. Maybe invite Alan and the boys over when there is a fresh batch of ribs in the smoker and all of you are at leisure to hash this out over some BBQ and few beers?


I knew from the git-go that my grid sucked donkey balls before I set up my little rig at home, so I put my Mackie and my little rack behind an ETA power conditioner. Bubba didn't know before the install that he had power problems, but they have been corrected with a not exactly cheap new piece of kit.

This could be an wonderful learning experience from both sides of the fence.


Did I mention that there might be BBQ?

[bunnerabb]

From what I hear, bubba is tha ghat damn man, y'all.

No face unfed, no hangover left uninstalled.

:very happy:

[Mojo]

Alan, what I'm seeing here is a golden opportunity to address a potential problem right in your back yard. I'm sure bubba would welcome you the chance to delve into this. No better chance for you than an hours drive away to A/B the Mackie against your console and assess this situation. Some people drive that every day just to make ends meet... you have far more to gain.

[alanhyatt]

Well my guys told me they did not get any beer or ribs Joe...not that that was the reason for the tag, but if they are wrong, then I will stand corrected. :Confused:

Moving on, I will remove the fee for Joe as an act of goodwill, but let me state publicly, "there is no issue with the power supply for the ATB". Joe's power outlets spit lightning and showed pulses on a scope. That is not normal and pro audio products do not account for that or power conditioners would not exist. So you have to ask yourself why they sell power conditioners in the first place if all products were not affected by power!

The other users that currently have the console, including Peter Gabriel's engineer, Tchad Blake, have no noise issues. I am not sure you will convince the other owners and new customers who do not have a power issue to shell out more for a power supply with a built in conditioner as suggested on one post here when they don't need it, and a choke would not stop what came out of those outlets.

Joe said the console is the best sounding console at that price anywhere. His only issue is with the power company, not us. Now that he resolved the power issue, he is fine. I am sorry he had to buy one, but I have no control over what comes out of his plugs. The only other thing I can add to Joe is to stop smoking in the room where the console is. Your going to kill it with all the smoke. :Uh oh:

Now in the end, Joe got a very good deal on the pilot program. He saved a lot of money. In fact, he saved well over twice what the conditioner cost him. So anyone buying one now is paying the new price, so even with having to fix his power problem, Joe still saved a good deal of money.

I still think he owes us some ribs.....:Wink:

[bbkong]

And ribs you shall have!

Pick a Saturday or Sunday and bring the whole crew. I need two days lead time to slaughter swine and gather firewood, the liquor store delivers twice a week and any evening till 9PM.

Seriously.

I didn't name this place for the fuckin waffles.



Oh, and I've personally seen Slipperman park a lit stogie on channel 56 of his Neve while he poured more whiskey. If this little board is gonna have an issue with some ciggie smoke it'll just have to wear a diaper.

My number is on the right -->

[malice]

Moving on, I will remove the fee for Joe as an act of goodwill,

That is a very nice gesture alan, you rock :Thumbsup:



The other users that currently have the console, including Peter Gabriel's engineer, Tchad Blake, have no noise issues.

Wow, Tchad is one of my all time mixer (well, after Mixerman of course). Do you know how he intend to use it ?


I still think he owes us some ribs.....:Wink:

hehehe, way to go Alan, way to go.

Don't be a stranger to our place.

malice

[mousdrvr]

From what I hear, bubba is tha ghat damn man, y'all.

No face unfed, no hangover left uninstalled.

:very happy:

Ya heard right Bunner.

I'm glad this is going to work out.

[dnafe]

I think Alan deserves a few additional rep points

[malice]

I think Alan deserves a few additional rep points

Thanx for the reminder, done

malice

[Kris]

:Thumbsup: :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

[alanhyatt]

Wow, Tchad is one of my all time mixer (well, after Mixerman of course). Do you know how he intend to use it ?

He is using it for extra channels and other submixing. He sent us some photo's of his studio and you can see the 32. I will ask Justin to get them photo's up and post a link. Tchad said he is really liking the console. Three of his buddies have already called and ordered consoles.

Leeds College of Music just ordered two more 16's to go with their 32 as well.

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group

[pounce]

now i want this mixer and i want ribs. hhmm.

[sqkychair]

Yippee,
Acting all whiney worked out again.:Thumbsup:

Alan,
It seems to me that you have a bunch of power supplies hanging around that you don't want to scrap.

But, if you figure out how to handle it pretty cheap, you can offer an UPGRADED power supply for say... $200 . A big improvement over the $500 conditioner.

Then, they can swap out the old one for new and who knows, you may be able to make a couple of bucks to offset the cost of the trip to bbkong's house where the problem was discovered.

[graymc]

Alan,
I see that you are having these boards manufactured in China. One thing I'm curious about: The climate in China is somewhat notorious for design theft of products manufactured there. How do you guys make sure that your circuitry and designs don't get stolen and manufactured as counterfit products there? (Just curious as there seems to be a rash of copycat stuff on the market these days).
- Gray

[pounce]

Alan,
I see that you are having these boards manufactured in China. One thing I'm curious about: The climate in China is somewhat notorious for design theft of products manufactured there. How do you guys make sure that your circuitry and designs don't get stolen and manufactured as counterfit products there? (Just curious as there seems to be a rash of copycat stuff on the market these days).
- Gray

so soon there is going to be a TAFT OTB board for half the price?

[dwoz]

Joe's power outlets spit lightning and showed pulses on a scope. That is not normal ...





of course, the unspoken irony of this is that Bbkong is/was a licensed electrician.

:lol: :icon_eek: :lol: :Coolio: :lol:

dwozzzzzzzt

[bbkong]

of course, the unspoken irony of this is that Bbkong is/was a licensed electrician.


Ironic, yes, but the purview of the contractor ends at the weatherhead. My next step was going to be installing a 10KVA isolation transformer on the entire supply like I did for a rock venue back in Oklahoma. They had a skid plant across the street with 50 welders going 24/7 and that was causing some disturbances in their house system.

My rescue there scored me a trailer full of hundred dollar bills and free tickets for life to any show I wanted. I blew it all on a house for my 3rd wife and a trailer load of dirt bikes.

I still have the trailer.

[alanhyatt]

My first post here. Yes, allow for isolation and voltage regulators in the equation. Works out something like this.

Mixer was 5249.00
iso 1700.00
volt reg 1500.00
meters ?? 1200.00 (guess)
digi card ?? 600.00 (guess)
bump boxes 1500.00 (I can't figure out if I need them to use the d/outs to 24 tracks of tape but, it appears to be the case).
Mixer stand 600.00
TT patchbay1200.00
estimated- $13,549.00 what I'll have in mine.

I damn well hope it will be a serious mixer.

Regards,

Danny

You don't need any bump boxes and you may not need any of the iso, regulators or conditioners. Remember, the only noise issue so far has been on Joe's. No one else has that. Save your money. If you find you need after, then spend.

The console is +4dBm on all the direct ouptuts. The level is 1.223volts = +4dBm =0VU. The handbook on page 22 shows all the operating levels and you can download the manual on the Toft site.

Balanced or unbalanced the console operates at professional levels that drive anything you have. Hope this helps and saves you some money....:)

[alanhyatt]

Alan,
I see that you are having these boards manufactured in China. One thing I'm curious about: The climate in China is somewhat notorious for design theft of products manufactured there. How do you guys make sure that your circuitry and designs don't get stolen and manufactured as counterfit products there? (Just curious as there seems to be a rash of copycat stuff on the market these days).
- Gray

Gary,

We work with factories that I trust. I have been building there for seven years and have made some very good friends. China is changing rapidly and if you ever see the console, you should see some very good work.

As for the circuits, well we make no bones about it.They are all modified variations of standard designs that have been around for 30 years...so what are they going to steal?

[Mixerpuppet]

Like everything in life.... (except gearsluts)

"If and as required"....

[alanhyatt]

Yippee,
Acting all whiney worked out again.:Thumbsup:

Alan,
It seems to me that you have a bunch of power supplies hanging around that you don't want to scrap.

But, if you figure out how to handle it pretty cheap, you can offer an UPGRADED power supply for say... $200 . A big improvement over the $500 conditioner.

Then, they can swap out the old one for new and who knows, you may be able to make a couple of bucks to offset the cost of the trip to bbkong's house where the problem was discovered.

This is just not needed. There is protection inside the supply already, but there are things you just can't stop without help. I see no reason to start adding on cost to a supply that would not really do anything.

I assure you if we start getting multiple complaints, we will look into it, but as a manufacture, you do not immediately react to a one off issue by jacking up the price for a beefier power supply that is not needed. Has anyone actually looked at this supply and held it in their hands. The thing is massive!

Let's get real here for a moment...if Joe had board #65 and there had been no other complaints and only great things said about the console on these forums, everyone here would have chalked it up to either bad power on his line or a supply gone bad.

Since it was board#2, everyone jumped to the conclusion that our supply had issues...and they don't. So no, we are not planning to make any changes at this time as the supply is more than beefy....

[prmntwaves]

I, for one, am impressed that Alan has kept his cool in a (relatively) hostile environment and is doing the right thing.

Kudos, Alan.

[malice]

I, for one, am impressed that Alan has kept his cool in a (relatively) hostile environment and is doing the right thing.

Kudos, Alan.


Hostile ?

Nobody was hostile. I think, furthermore that this console is meant to be a clear winner. A lots of us here are more than enclined to welcome any Malcom Toft design with a positive mindset.

malice

[Goes211]

I, for one, am impressed that Alan has kept his cool in a (relatively) hostile environment and is doing the right thing.

Kudos, Alan.

Alan certainly deserves kudos.
The way he has handled the situation has been most professional.
But nobody put a gun to his head and I see nothing but fair comments and/or criticism, to which Alan responded like the pro he his. I didn't (still don't) see ANY hostility. Matter of fact, I am quite confident most of us here are quite pleased Alan peeks in here.
Like Slippy said, this is a product I WANT to like.
Any plans for european distribution, Alan ?

[pianodano]

You don't need any bump boxes and you may not need any of the iso, regulators or conditioners. Remember, the only noise issue so far has been on Joe's. No one else has that. Save your money. If you find you need after, then spend.

The console is +4dBm on all the direct ouptuts. The level is 1.223volts = +4dBm =0VU. The handbook on page 22 shows all the operating levels and you can download the manual on the Toft site.

Balanced or unbalanced the console operates at professional levels that drive anything you have. Hope this helps and saves you some money....:)

That's great news - thanks . Can't find anymore La80's anyway.
I am commited on the power though -

[bbkong]

I was just checking out your numbers and you kinda overshot the cost of conditioning by a power of 4.

I'd suggest looking into whether you really need that before throwing down on it anyway. Knowledge is not only power, it's thrifty.

[pianodano]

Well, according to my basic arithmetical calculator, when I add up everything (equipment wise) projected in the studio, I am at 18 amps. Monster doesn't state anywhere that I've seen their rated power handling output. The smaller Furman was enough for some thing but not everything. Plus I will be getting a MCI JH24 pretty soon and making the old MS-16 2nd fiddle. Plus plus, I have so much money in Mogami cables now, I couldn't stand to clip the jacks off to do the Starground thing. The Furman lit says I can forgit the starground deal. Soooo, thar you go. YMMV.

[alanhyatt]

Well, according to my basic arithmetical calculator, when I add up everything (equipment wise) projected in the studio, I am at 18 amps. Monster doesn't state anywhere that I've seen their rated power handling output. The smaller Furman was enough for some thing but not everything. Plus I will be getting a MCI JH24 pretty soon and making the old MS-16 2nd fiddle. Plus plus, I have so much money in Mogami cables now, I couldn't stand to clip the jacks off to do the Starground thing. The Furman lit says I can forgit the starground deal. Soooo, thar you go. YMMV.

You do not have to lift the negative phase on the connector as long as you ground all your effect racks, patch bays etc...to the console and lift the ground at the AC plug. Juice Goose(may be out of business) made a 10 outlet distro with ground lift for pretty cheap.

[bbkong]

It might be too soon to mention this, and it may just be my imagination, but I had a pulled pork sangwich for lunch and accidently smeared a little grease on that blue fader while I was listening to Fletcher's cd and I swear it sounds a little better now...

I think I'm gonna coat the monitor out cables with bacon fat and see what that does.

[Aardvark]

It might be too soon to mention this, and it may just be my imagination, but I had a pulled pork sangwich for lunch and accidently smeared a little grease on that blue fader while I was listening to Fletcher's cd and I swear it sounds a little better now...

I think I'm gonna coat the monitor out cables with bacon fat and see what that does.


So...roughly speaking....you find Fletcher's stuff easier to take when greased up?

NTTAWWT!



Cheers,
Aardvark

[eagan]

Nice, Alan. I think you've demonstrated you're a real mensch, and I myself hope you'll be sticking around the place here for regular and ongoing abuse.


:D

Although overall, I suspect people might tend to be more fond of your stuff than anything.

Regarding the invoice writeoff for Bubba (who is this Joe you speak of?:Roll eyes: ), tell the accounting department/accountant (hey, I don't know how big you guys are) that it's not a service call, it's field R&D. From what I see long distance here, that's no bullshit.

Not to drag this out ad nauseum, but this is clearly not a case where you had to send guys out to an install location to help some clueless goober who couldn't figure out how to plug it in.

The overriding single item that stands out in all this is that a problem turned up that, indeed, was not a "product defect" in the usual literal sense, but it did turn out to be a design issue.

The single item is: there was a problem that turned out to be an external factor, but was only a problem with this particular piece.

Now, I do understand, I know enough about electronics manufacturing to know that you just can't provide absolute perfection in all things to all people and make something that is being wrestled into a budget price range. But the fact remains that investigation revealed a problem that was only a problem in that studio for this piece of equipment in its present design.

All things considered, I call that R&D early field testing, not a repair call. So you did the right thing, in my humble opinion. Well done.

And it's been said, but it sounds to me like you guys have found the best "real world" field-testing location you could possibly hope for. Enjoy the BBQ and beer.:)


JLE

[magicchord]

It might be too soon to mention this, and it may just be my imagination, but I had a pulled pork sangwich for lunch and accidently smeared a little grease on that blue fader while I was listening to Fletcher's cd and I swear it sounds a little better now...

I think I'm gonna coat the monitor out cables with bacon fat and see what that does.

Let's smear a little Tube-O-Lator lacquer (http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm) on the chips, too. :lol:

[dwoz]

Let's smear a little Tube-O-Lator lacquer (http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm) on the chips, too. :lol:


I've got a bottle of Dave's Insanity Sauce, 2001 reserve, that you can borrow. That'll grow testicles on that power supply.


...by the way, anyone here know Dave's?

dwoz

[pianodano]

At the place I used to live, I had a terrible time with radio interferrence in the console. Had a fellow a couple of trailers down that was a CB radio type with a sideband. He could actually PEG the meters on the console just keying up. FCC said it was my problem yet he was the one with the illegal sideband. Went on for a year or so. I tried being nice and asked him to please stop doing that. That didn't work. Tried getting rude. That didn't work either. Couldn't record zip without printing the cb chatter.
Sooo, one day I put 4 of the old Sunn Colloseum cabinets (the ones with the 2 15"'s and huge radial horns) out in the yard pointing his way. Hooked em up to 4 Peavey 1000 watters and ran a line out from the console. Hehe. I think the feedback blew him off his chair when he keyed up. I know it nearly broke his windows out. That went on for a couple of days but there was nothing he could do. Wasn't my fault. He played nice from then on.

Where I am at now, the good old US Navy has a ship/sub repair yard 5 miles downriver from me. They happen to have a large electronics repair shop there with huge antennas and dishes on top of the 6 story building. I worked there for a few years once and have seen them blow fish out of the water when testing Sonar aboard ship. I used to occasionally pickup interference when they tested radar. It was mindnumbing and you could count the revolutions of the dish. You can say I am kinda shellshocked re line noise and interferrence.

Needless to say, I planned to cut no corners in trying to isolate the console from as much interference as possible. That's why I spent what I did. With the precautions I have taken to deliver clean power to it I hope I have ruled out some potential problems. Just hope I don't have to build a Farraday cage around the studio. :lol:

[matt allison]

Hey Alan,

Congrats man, it has been a long haul to get this puppy out to market... I still remember 'leaking' the pics of the prototype on the Slutz Forum... I even had threats from people when they found out I had them and was waiting for your approval to post them... seriously... these pro audio types are scary... LOL

To the rest of you fine folks... greetings from Africa! I'm glad I stumbled across the site, what a nifty little place to hang out.

Hope to be spending more time in these parts.

Cheers

Matt

P.S "How many posts does it take before I'm no longer a Wanker?"

[nobby]

Moving on, I will remove the fee for Joe as an act of goodwill

:Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

[Fulcrum]

I've got a bottle of Dave's Insanity Sauce, 2001 reserve, that you can borrow. That'll grow testicles on that power supply.


...by the way, anyone here know Dave's?

I know of it. (http://www.davesgourmet.com/) Been meaning to have a bash at it.

[Aardvark]

...P.S "How many posts does it take before I'm no longer a Wanker?"


Five....but I can arrange for you to forever keep the title if it suits you!



Hehehehe.


Welcome.


I love Africa btw...see: http://womb.mixerman.net/showthread.php?t=627 (*Shameless self promo*)

Have not been to South Africa yet...close, but not yet.


Cheers,
ShonaVark
:Wink:

[matt allison]

I figured as much from your user name... How did you get your 'Earth Pig' name (Which is was Aardvark means in English)?

Incase anyone ever wondered.... an Aardvark looks like this.... and to be honest I've never seen one in the wild.

http://www.brookfieldzoo.org/pagegen/images/2000002/Aardvark.jpg

South Africa is quite different from the Africa you describe in your story. Most people are rather taken a back when they arrive here. The country is a lot more developed than many of our neighboring African countries people seem to expect to see starving children and lions on the run way, instead they get Mc Donalds and Kids in Levis... that is not to say we don't have our fair share of problems like Poverty, Unemployment and HIV/AIDS.

I live in Cape Town, affectionately known as the Mother City. I joke and say it is because it takes 9 months to get anything done... this town is often too laid back for its own good...

It is quite something to live on the most Southern tip of Africa and am blessed to call it home and I get to build crap for studios and makes records along the way, so it could be worse ;-)

So there you have it... 2nd post... 3 more and I loose my Wanker status (and yes, surprisingly I will not miss it).

If you ever make it across the border look me up and I'd be more than happy to show you around.

Now back to our scheduled programming...

Cheers

Matt

[clicktrack]

I figured as much from your user name... How did you get your 'Earth Pig' name (Which is was Aardvark means in English)?

If you've noticed any of his posts, he manages to live up to his "Earth Pig" designation quite well...

:very happy:

In fact, there are many similarities between the Canadian Earth Pig and the African Aardvark.

For example,
The African Aardvarks roots for bugs and grubs.

The Canadian Earth Pig roots for grubby hockey teams with no chance of seeing the cup.

There are many more examples, but I think you get the picture...

Evil!

[Mixerman]

I will remove the fee for Joe as an act of goodwill

Great news Alan! I think that shows an immense amount of class.

I'm going to go up to Bubba's early next year and record some drums through the beast. I'll be sure to give a full report.

Just out of curiosity, did you find the environment here to be hostile? 'Cause from where I sit, it seemed damn inviting.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[alanhyatt]

Just out of curiosity, did you find the environment here to be hostile? 'Cause from where I sit, it seemed damn inviting.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
No not hostile...Determined is a good description, but pretty darn respectful. On some other forums I have had some very uncomfortable situations, but since then, I have grown some thick skin and have learned the ropes of this BBS thing finally.

So after a few good beatings on those forums, I am now capable of taking multiple beatings and still keep my composure...:icon_eek:

I will always speak my mind because I have an opinion about pro audio, and have been at this since I was 16 and am now 55. I learned my craft from Joe Esposito in New York, and being a New Yorker by birth right I am opinionated. I do try however to keep my opinions separate from the business end if I can because I fully understand when I offer an opinion, it will be taken as biased if it revolves around any of my products.

So with that said, I like the vibe here and as long as I am welcome, I would love to contribute anyway I can without stepping on any toes.

So thanks for the welcome...:)

[bbkong]

55?


That's what's wrong with this business.

Too many damn kids.

[malice]

Great news Alan! I think that shows an immense amount of class.

I'm going to go up to Bubba's early next year and record some drums through the beast. I'll be sure to give a full report.



Mixerman

OH OH OH,

that I'm going to read with a lot of interest.

malice

[bunnerabb]

I think Alan deserves a few additional rep points

Yeah? I been shooting my mouth off here since this place was coded on an Atari and I don't have any!


:D





Maybe that's why.


:lol:

[Tim Armstrong]

I'm thinking that this thread will probably help sell a few consoles.

Cool!

Tim

[clicktrack]

So with that said, I like the vibe here and as long as I am welcome, I would love to contribute anyway I can without stepping on any toes.

So thanks for the welcome...:)

And a welcome from myself as well...

Alan, I have a theory about the word "Pro". The word "Pro" doesn't just bring to mind some high-end piece of kit, and it doesn't describe a pro-sumer P.O.S. The word, IMHO, describes a MINDSET...one of quality and a total one-mindedness that the designers HAD to have posessed in order to create a piece of equipment that was suited for its environment. The word describes them taking ownership for the duty of care owed to the customer.

You, sir, have proved yourself PRO.

Well done. Thanks for coming out and helping out BB...he's a well respected one around these parts and its always good to see him being well taken care of.

Not only does your new console look like the bees knees, but you also conduct yourself in a very PRO manner.

Well done again, and welcome.



And now, I'll return to teasing Mr. Earth Pig Aardvark whenever I have the opportunity...

:)

Cheers

Click.

[otek]

Ipeople seem to expect to see starving children and lions on the run way, instead they get Mc Donalds and Kids in Levis...


.... not to mention, some of the best wine on the planet. :)

[Logan]

[QUOTE=alanhyatt;9704]
So after a few good beatings on those forums, I am now capable of taking multiple beatings and still keep my composure...:icon_eek: [\QUOTE]

So it's Rocky Hyatt from here on in. Class move Rock. Canadian distributer? Take care Logan

[Kris]

Alan and Reid are definately class acts. And I just found out I've got a console in the mail. :Razz:

[Comte de St Germain]

I've been very curious, as BB knows, about this console. It's great to see they are shipping and the potential is there.

[prmntwaves]

Hostile ?

Nobody was hostile. I think, furthermore that this console is meant to be a clear winner. A lots of us here are more than enclined to welcome any Malcom Toft design with a positive mindset.

malice


For the record, what I wrote was "...(relatively) hostile...".


Not "hostile'. Not "openly hostile".

(Relatively) hostile.


There is a difference.


This isn't some manufacturers hangout where we're going to kiss everyones ass and we're forbidden from being critical. Alan could have just as easily gone "whiney" when answering the questions, at which point it could have gotten nasty.

It didn't, but it could have. Ask Bombguy about it.

[bbkong]

Ask Bombguy about it.

I remember that!

That episode brought on three months of nuclear winter.

Didn't he sell his company and change his name after somebody signed him up on the national sex offender list?

[Aardvark]

...Ask Bombguy about it.

He has never posted here!!!


HEhehhe.


Alan handled himself adroitly. My recollection of Bombguy's attitude and posture was that anywhere he went knives with his name on them would be sharpened.

We want to encourage folks like Alan to come here and provide valuable information.

You can rest assured that whoever, from whatever company, chooses to grace our humble virtual walls and present themselves in a such a thoughtful manner will be under a veil of mod protection. (I said mod...not mob...although...hehehehe)

The Internet music community needs more threads like this.


Thanks to all of the posters who contributed to it...this was, for my thinking, an fine example of how to conduct ourselves in a situation like this.


Cheers,
Aarvark
:Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

[malice]

It didn't, but it could have. Ask Bombguy about it.

prmntwaves, lemme add your rep score a notch for this one :Thumbsup:

malice :D

[mark714]

Wow... what a thread.

Somehow the sonics of the board got eaten up by business strategies. bbkong, great posts and great candor. What about the channel EQ's, mix buss & build quality?

I'm intrigued by the board. BTW I'm new here, so hello everyone.

[Comte de St Germain]

prmntwaves, lemme add your rep score a notch for this one :Thumbsup:

malice :D

How many points for shitting in his B-3?

[malice]

How many points for shitting in his B-3?

You might get admin power for that

At least your own forum

And the key to the executive washroom

malice

[bbkong]

You might get admin power for that

At least your own forum

And the key to the executive washroom

malice

Don't bite, Comte. Modding a forum is waaaay overrated and a major pita.

Not only that, the executive washroom has a bucket and a mop and everyone's expected to use it.

Stick to random bushes, life will be easier!

[eagan]

Wow... what a thread.

Somehow the sonics of the board got eaten up by business strategies. bbkong, great posts and great candor. What about the channel EQ's, mix buss & build quality?


In a hurry?:Roll eyes:

Patience, lad.

You get started and cover first things first. Yes?

In this case, the "sonics of the board" started off with something that goes like "pop.....pop....pop". Which naturally leads to all that followed. All the sonic subtleties don't matter much if you crank the new beast up and it sits there randomly farting and belching at you. So that's Item Number One.

Not much point in getting into long rambling spew about the subtleties of seasoning in your gourmet cooking online club forum until you can get the new stove to fire up without exploding, is there?

In due time. Let's maybe give Bubba a week or two to actually, you know, DO some stuff with it.


JLE

[bbkong]

Wow... what a thread.

Somehow the sonics of the board got eaten up by business strategies. bbkong, great posts and great candor. What about the channel EQ's, mix buss & build quality?

I'm intrigued by the board. BTW I'm new here, so hello everyone.

Don't be intrigued, be awed.

The eq's will have you looking at the bottom of the board for a penis insert.

I can't comment on the mix buss yet.

I'll rate the build quality at 99%. If you use a magnifying glass you can find pan detents that aren't perfectly set to True North and I believe there's one led that isn't looking absolutely straight up.

The xlr's are mounted to the back panel, but all the 1/4" stuff is mounted to the pc board and protrudes through, so there's a bit of movement there when you plug/unplug stuff.

I found a tiny pinhole of a bubble on the wood front rail, almost like a there was a droplet of oil on the wood while it was being finished. (that's better than my woodwork by a long shot)

One of the adhesive attached aluminum labels on the end caps was trying to lift a bit, but a bit of finger pressure stuck it in there good.

So I figger .5% for all that. I'll reserve the last 1.5% until I happen to see the insides of this thing, which may be sooner than later since I have a friend with itchy fingers and a pocket screwdriver.

If I start having grounding issues, I'll be wishing it had a nice green #10 screw with a star washer somewhere on the chassis to do some serious grounding, but we aren't there yet.

So far, it sounds like the perfect compliment to my Radar and the LSR's.

Big bang boom for your Yankee buck!!

[Flipper]

This has been an excellent thread.

BB congrats on the purchase mate..

As for Allan you've handled yourself really well over here on the fronline...Good to see...
OHH and nice job on the invoice..:Thumbsup:

With out bashing other forums things are much more direct over here which is why we come ......
None of this fuck assing about....

It's interesting to see the boat jumpers that can't cop the heat...


Anyway back on topic...... ATB

Flip

[bbkong]

I should have an interesting report on it tomorrow evening.

I got invited up to El Mirage to track dune buggy races while a buddy does the camera work.

We'll see if the All Terrain part of ATB stands up to a real manly test.

[bunnerabb]

*packs up and drives to L.A. to track at Kong's*

:D

[mousdrvr]

*packs up and drives to L.A. to track at Kong's*

:D

I think you really do want to do that Bunner. From what I can tell you and The Monkey are on the same page. Plus Dude....the weather!

[FajitaTone]

I can't wait for the reports. Alan has proven himself to be a REAL stand up guy. Class act, 100%. Now only time will tell if the board is 100% too.

get busy bbkong.

:Coolio:

[jerryskid]

Of course, I'm going to pile on and say power supply yadda yadda yadda, and so what if there's a 55 ft ham radio tower next door, a cat tangled in the intermittent electric fence on the other side, a welder in the shop across the street, and a NORAD radar installation over there behind that fence.



-1 keyboard.........:lol:

thanx for posting alan......

[Slipperman]

Meh. Come use mine anytime. I've got a 4 piece coming in to do some Black Sabbath covers with Christmas lyrics. I'll pay ya to track them for me while I hide under the bed.

Oh, I wasn't kidding about the Sabbath session. It's yours, baby.

Come get it!

I'd love to Bubba. I really would. It would be a blast, I'm sure.

Unfortunately, the chances of me escaping my little shop of horrors for a West Coast session before Feb. are statistically zero.

Absolute bedlam here since Sept. - Oct. after what had proven to be a uniformly dreadful year for the 'troops'(in other words.. I did "OK", not stellar, and everybody else here, by and large, took a fucking beating).

Go figure.

Anyhoo.

I was both surprised and pleased to see how this thread progressed in the past few days.

Awful nice of the PMI chaps to drop by and address your concerns and issues. It's funny... "after sales" customer service is a HUGE part of building something that will last, and, using SSL(in their heyday) as an example, is CRUCIAL to attaining and maintaining a loyal customer base in our relatively tiny business. Even though this product is aimed at a much lower investment bracket than the Solid State Logic desks of yore, and therefore will, in all likelihood, have many more desks sold/supported in any given year... it's primarily "economy of scale" and the same basic rules still apply.

Build a solid and effective product. Support it in a prompt, fair and reasonable fashion... and reap the rewards.

Best regards,

SM.

[jerryskid]

If you've noticed any of his posts, he manages to live up to his "Earth Pig" designation quite well...



The Canadian Earth Pig roots for grubby hockey teams with no chance of seeing the cup.



That was LOW, click...but :lol:

[Logan]

The Canadian Earth Pig roots for grubby hockey teams with no chance of seeing the cup.!

Of course we can't see it, because when it's in our trophy case the view is always obscured but fucking idiot drooling laff fans, who have to make the trek to the place where that cup is most at home, trying to find the 1967 patch of names of the Trawna make beliefs. It's pitiful to watch, but it must be even more pitiful to be one of those fucking losers. Or should that be perenial fucking losers? Take care Logan

[bbkong]

*packs up and drives to L.A. to track at Kong's*

:D

Now yer talkin'. Sell that Bear Ringer desk and you could prolly get a one way bus ticket.

Now that the Invasions have run their course, I'm switching over to Kong's Summer Camp of Recording.

Ten brutal days and nights of non stop glowing red button, bring songs and lots of clean socks.

To be followed by Slipperman's Reign of Terror Mixathon on the beautiful Jersey shore.

I can see it now, the B room packed to the gunwales with navy bunks and ankle chains. Brutal, just fuckin brutal.

[bunnerabb]

I can see it now, the B room packed to the gunwales with navy bunks and ankle chains. Brutal, just fuckin brutal.

Now you're just trying to cheer me up, man.

:very happy:

[amaudio]

I should be getting my ATB 32 in about an hour.:grin: Now I am all freaked out about having the same issues as bbkong. Wish me luck.

-Joey Adkins

I will post some of my thoughts as soon as I can.

[otek]

I should be getting my ATB 32 in about an hour.:grin: Now I am all freaked out about having the same issues as bbkong. Wish me luck.

I'm sure they can give you a direct outlet from the Hoover Dam. :lol:

[alanhyatt]

I should be getting my ATB 32 in about an hour.:grin: Now I am all freaked out about having the same issues as bbkong. Wish me luck.

-Joey Adkins

I will post some of my thoughts as soon as I can.

No need to freak out, so far Joe's was the only one with that problem and we have shipped some 68 consoles already. The one thing that is pissing me off is that shit lead free solder we have to use because RoHS says we have to.

There have been no pc board issues with the solder, but some on the connectors and a couple of fader wires. The shit just does not flow like the lead based solder so it is hard to know if it is connected properly. We use a 20X scope to look but even then we can't tell so we test every connector and fader...what a pain.

The problem has been in shipping. If it was weak solder joint, it can break and that spells "da friggin thing dont work"...and that is a pain in the ass.

Just so you know, it has only been a few consoles so don't get panicky, and we will fix it anyway. The solder issue has no effect on noise, but we do not have noise issues.

So, there, I said it...RoHS sucks and lead free solder is useless... I would rather super glue the connectors on than use that lead free shit! :Mad:

[amaudio]

I'm sure they can give you a direct outlet from the Hoover Dam. :lol:That would be nice. Still pacing around for the freakin delivery guy:Mad:

[amaudio]

No need to freak out, so far Joe's was the only one with that problem and we have shipped some 68 consoles already. The one thing that is pissing me off is that shit lead free solder we have to use because RoHS says we have to.

There have been no pc board issues with the solder, but some on the connectors and a couple of fader wires. The shit just does not flow like the lead based solder so it is hard to know if it is connected properly. We use a 20X scope to look but even then we can't tell so we test every connector and fader...what a pain.

The problem has been in shipping. If it was weak solder joint, it can break and that spells "da friggin thing dont work"...and that is a pain in the ass.

Just so you know, it has only been a few consoles so don't get panicky, and we will fix it anyway. The solder issue has no effect on noise, but we do not have noise issues.

So, there, I said it...RoHS sucks and lead free solder is useless... I would rather super glue the connectors on than use that lead free shit! :Mad:Thanks Alan. I appreciate you posting a reply. I will keep my fingers crossed that there are no issues with the solder.

[pianodano]

No need to freak out, so far Joe's was the only one with that problem and we have shipped some 68 consoles already. The one thing that is pissing me off is that shit lead free solder we have to use because RoHS says we have to.

There have been no pc board issues with the solder, but some on the connectors and a couple of fader wires. The shit just does not flow like the lead based solder so it is hard to know if it is connected properly. We use a 20X scope to look but even then we can't tell so we test every connector and fader...what a pain.

The problem has been in shipping. If it was weak solder joint, it can break and that spells "da friggin thing dont work"...and that is a pain in the ass.

Just so you know, it has only been a few consoles so don't get panicky, and we will fix it anyway. The solder issue has no effect on noise, but we do not have noise issues.

So, there, I said it...RoHS sucks and lead free solder is useless... I would rather super glue the connectors on than use that lead free shit! :Mad:

Hi Alan,

Yup. I talked to Justin earlier. I had no idea the US was going to be forced into using the lead free solder also (around 2008 -09, he said). Piss on that. Bet Nasa or the military won't be using the crap. Congress probably exempted themselves also. Just more 1 example of world government crap imho.

I'm kinda bumbed out now because Sweetwater has let me down (again) on the power stuff (iso and regulator). I ordered the stuff the first of last week and somehow they sold/shipped all the inventory received from Furman this week without my order being included. They're telling me now that additional shipments are not expected from Furman before maybe the middle to the end of January. There seems to be no other dealer that have the units that I want available. I guess I'm near the end of the que for 32 channel console shipment and really don't intend to start wiring it up until I can provide the best power I can get. Sooo, what I am trying to say is (for my part)take your time. Btw, Justin told me to fax over the literature on the B3 percussion and he will get it to you so I will do it asap. Haven't had time to put my hands on the Leslie combo preamp either. Business beckons amd calls, iykwim.

Regards

Danny

[Mixerman]

No need to freak out, so far Joe's was the only one with that problem and we have shipped some 68 consoles already. The one thing that is pissing me off is that shit lead free solder we have to use because RoHS says we have to.

There have been no pc board issues with the solder, but some on the connectors and a couple of fader wires. The shit just does not flow like the lead based solder so it is hard to know if it is connected properly. We use a 20X scope to look but even then we can't tell so we test every connector and fader...what a pain.

The problem has been in shipping. If it was weak solder joint, it can break and that spells "da friggin thing dont work"...and that is a pain in the ass.

Just so you know, it has only been a few consoles so don't get panicky, and we will fix it anyway. The solder issue has no effect on noise, but we do not have noise issues.

So, there, I said it...RoHS sucks and lead free solder is useless... I would rather super glue the connectors on than use that lead free shit! :Mad:

Yeah, but you can lick the pc boards with no concern for lead poisoning? Could save a life...

Mixerman

[Brendo]

Yeah, but you can lick the pc boards with no concern for lead poisoning? Could save a life...

Mixerman

What, are they fucking apple flavored now?:lol:

[Watershed]

What, are they fucking apple flavored now?:lol:

Cumquat I think :Roll eyes:

[alanhyatt]

Cumquat I think :Roll eyes:

I went for feminine for all you sick bastards out there!!!! :icon_eek:

[alanhyatt]

Hi Alan,

Yup. I talked to Justin earlier. I had no idea the US was going to be forced into using the lead free solder also (around 2008 -09, he said).

Regards

Danny

January 2007 my man for the USA as I am told. Not that they will enforce it just yet, but that is the date...Sucks bigtime...

Please, fax it to Justin for me...

[magicchord]

I no longer lick my PC boards, because those electrolytic capacitors can hold a considerable charge, even after I've turned the power off.

ZAP!

OW!

[blackieC]

Good thing you didn't try that with your amp.



mmmm... this amp tastes like AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRAAAAGGGGGG!!!!!!!!

*thud*

[Grapestomper]

note to self:

Buy a case of solder before January.

Thanks.
M

[Kris]

Well so far I've got a much more serious (and potentially expensive/money draining) problem with this board and I'm PISSED....:icon_eek:







It's too damn BIG for my 'bitty control room so now I've got to build a new one! Talk about added expenses...

(The board isn't really that BIG... it's just that my control room is really small...:very happy: )

[alanhyatt]

Well so far I've got a much more serious (and potentially expensive/money draining) problem with this board and I'm PISSED....:icon_eek:

It's too damn BIG for my 'bitty control room so now I've got to build a new one! Talk about added expenses...

(The board isn't really that BIG... it's just that my control room is really small...:very happy: )

Shoulda got the smaller one!

[Watershed]

I went for feminine for all you sick bastards out there!!!! :icon_eek:


Sorry, I shoulda spelt it properly :grin:

http://www.kumquatgrowers.com/

[Flipper]

Sorry, I shoulda spelt it properly :grin:

http://www.kumquatgrowers.com/

SSSSSHHHHH.....

You'll ruin for the rest of us in Oz

[amaudio]

I got my atb 32 yesterday (Finally). There were tons of screw ups with the shipping. It was supposed to go to Boulder City NV and instead it got shipped to Boulder CO (So needless to say they had to stare down the buisness end of a hissy fit). Anywho. I didn't get much time to play around with it much, we need to tear the studio apart and are booked like crazy so we won't get a chance to hook it up till after the new year. We did get a chance to check out the pre's and the EQ and they sound pretty dern good. We have some vintech 1272's and the atb pre's sound fairly comparable. The 1272's have a little more clarity which is what I expected but what I didn't expect is that the atb pre's killed our focusrite trackmaster pre's :grin: . The is a couple issuses that I have.some of the pan pots when they are in the center notch the little line buddies are pointing about 5% to the L or R. The other thing is in order to get a hot enough signal to pro tools we had to crank the input gain almost all the way and put the fader up to around +5db. I want to know if everyones console is like this, so let a brother know. All in all it was a great purchase and I can't wait to put this thing through some abuse.

-Joey Adkins

[pianodano]

I'm kinda bumbed out now because Sweetwater has let me down on the power stuff (iso and regulator). I ordered the stuff the first of last week and somehow they sold/shipped all the inventory received from Furman this week without my order being included. They're telling me now that additional shipments are not expected from Furman before maybe the middle to the end of January. There seems to be no other dealer that have the units that I want available. I guess I'm near the end of the que for 32 channel console shipment and really don't intend to start wiring it up until I can provide the best power I can get. Sooo, what I am trying to say is (for my part)take your time. Regards
Danny

Dang it. 2 days later and Sweetwater calls at 9:00 this morning and tells me my power stuff is on the way. :Uh oh:

[ffaudio]

to Kong's Summer Camp of Recording.


Sign me up. I'll sleep underneath the console for warmth. Just kick me in the morning to wake me up.

Softly.

[Flipper]

I got my atb 32 yesterday (Finally). There were tons of screw ups with the shipping. It was supposed to go to Boulder City NV and instead it got shipped to Boulder CO (So needless to say they had to stare down the buisness end of a hissy fit). Anywho. I didn't get much time to play around with it much, we need to tear the studio apart and are booked like crazy so we won't get a chance to hook it up till after the new year. We did get a chance to check out the pre's and the EQ and they sound pretty dern good. We have some vintech 1272's and the atb pre's sound fairly comparable. The 1272's have a little more clarity which is what I expected but what I didn't expect is that the atb pre's killed our focusrite trackmaster pre's :grin: . The is a couple issuses that I have.some of the pan pots when they are in the center notch the little line buddies are pointing about 5% to the L or R. The other thing is in order to get a hot enough signal to pro tools we had to crank the input gain almost all the way and put the fader up to around +5db. I want to know if everyones console is like this, so let a brother know. All in all it was a great purchase and I can't wait to put this thing through some abuse.

-Joey Adkins


This is interesting.

I have not to read that anywhere (yet), i don't think anyone else has really given the Pre's a working over yet.

Thanks Amaudio.

[con mucho gusto]

so is this thing actually out...or are youz guys all part of the pilot program?

[Flipper]

so is this thing actually out...or are youz guys all part of the pilot program?


Yeah they've been released.

Pilot program was over a while ago.. Well by a couple of weeks or so at least i think.

[bunnerabb]

note to self:

Buy a case of solder before January.

Thanks.
M

Ditto.

[bbkong]

Just to give it a little bump.

I've been off the planet for a little while and I'm just getting back in here and accustomed to gravity again.

I've got a real drummer coming in tomorrow to practice for a couple of hours and I'm going to spend some time getting some drums sounds going through this thing.

I'll try some different mics and set ups and see what she'll do, cap'n. I'll get some p3's up asap.

I've already noticed it needs to be cranked a little to get a nice signal coming out of it, but tone wise it has appeal. I just wish that appeal came out around 5 and not 8.

I set my Radar's I/O to +20 and +22 and it seems to be the same levels coming and going.

[amaudio]

I've already noticed it needs to be cranked a little to get a nice signal coming out of it, but tone wise it has appeal. I just wish that appeal came out around 5 and not 8.

I noticed the same thing with my console. I am not to shure how I feel about that yet, but I was definately surprised. I'm glad to hear it's not just mine.

[pianodano]

I noticed the same thing with my console. I am not to shure how I feel about that yet, but I was definately surprised. I'm glad to hear it's not just mine.

Reports like this are making me crazy. Could somebody PLEeeeASE put a 1.23v 1k signal into a line input, put the channel fader at unity gain and measure the output level at both a bus out at unity gain and the master and give a heads up?

Thanks

Danny

[con mucho gusto]

Reports like this are making me crazy. Could somebody PLEeeeASE put a 1.23v 1k signal into a line input, put the channel fader at unity gain and measure the output level at both a bus out at unity gain and the master and give a heads up?

Thanks

Danny

yeah we're dying for these measurements..




















mmmmm....wanna buy a tac?

:Roll eyes:

[Tim Armstrong]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[bbkong]

Reports like this are making me crazy. Could somebody PLEeeeASE put a 1.23v 1k signal into a line input, put the channel fader at unity gain and measure the output level at both a bus out at unity gain and the master and give a heads up?

Thanks

Danny

I'll get right on that.

Just as soon as I run over to PacElec and pick up a variable frequency generator. Or you can bring yours over, since that may not happen until like never.

[pianodano]

BBKong,

I'm sorry. I assumed you or someone else would have one for calibration and a volt meter with a dB scale. I guess things like that are too old school. Whenever I get my 32 Channel ATB, I will test and post the results.

[bbkong]

No need to apologise, I just don't keep toys like that around since I don't come from a bench monkey background.

I have a dB meter from Radio Shack that I bought to fend off an obnoxious neighbor once, an old Teac test tone gen that I use maybe once a year and a Wavetek multi that stays close to the top of the pile, but I generally go with what sounds good rather than any esoteric measurements, and this board sounds great.

My previous comment about the output level is just a simple observation.

I do need a box that will split out more outputs for my monitors and it'll probably have a gain control, so I'm not too worried about that.

The I/O balance to my Radar is within acceptable limits (read adjustable) and while I'm unfamiliar with PT, I'd guess anything that costs that much would have some sort of ability to compensate for various input levels.

Of course, that's all irrelevant to the fact that the board's sweet spot starts kicking in above 6. I've never seen a meter with a 'sweetness' scale. :lol:

Again, I'm really happy with this board, and it kicks Mackie to the curb. If I can find a drummer who knows how to show up and not suck, I'm still planning some tests.

[magicchord]

Careful... being able to measure frequency response and distortion can be a trap :D

I have two applications that I run on my PC to do that.

One is audiotester: http://www.audiotester.de/

The other is Right Mark Audio Analyzer: http://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml

I still use analog tape to some extent so it's useful for tweaking machines.
I can get paranoid sometimes when I see a little more distortion on my console's Right channel than the Left.
It's a trap, I tell ya! :Uh oh:

[bbkong]

Indeed, and why I don't get too hung up with details.

If it sounds good, I don't need to know, and if it sounds like shit I aint buyin it.

You of all people know this is one of the rare occasions when I've paid for something sound unseen. :lol:

[Brendo]

No need to apologise, I just don't keep toys like that around since I don't come from a bench monkey background.

I have an old Teac test tone gen that I use maybe once a year

Dude's asking for +4 dBm, which is 1.whateverthefuck Volts. Surely +4 dbV would be more useful? Does your Teac spit that out?

[pianodano]

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-volt.htm

+4 dBm = 1.23v

[Brendo]

The point is it doesnt matter, why would you want dBm measurements?

[magicchord]

Indeed, and why I don't get too hung up with details.

If it sounds good, I don't need to know, and if it sounds like shit I aint buyin it.

You of all people know this is one of the rare occasions when I've paid for something sound unseen. :lol:

True dat...

Now that I think about it, there's probably a chart or diagram somewhere in the manual that shows what the reference level is at all the gazintas and gazoutas.

[bbkong]

Brendo, that sounds simple and easy, but this little box has a choice of -40deciBubbameters or -10, depending on whether I feel like walking 50 miles to the convenience store for a 9v battery in a snow storm, up hill both ways. Wearing snow tires.


Yeah, and there's a page 20 of the published specs in the manual (available at an internet cafe near you) or so I'm told since I didn't make it past page 6 since I powered it up.

That, and George Martin appeared to me in a dream last night and said 'bubba, this is a pretty hot little board!' and he's not even dead yet.






Is he?





Anyway, it's Midnight and New Year's Eve in...(checks international clock, compensates for DST) Winslow right now.


BRB.

[Cheech]

MAN!!! I am quite interested in this here board!! I cant wait to hear some reports on how summing and what not are sounding like....

Regardless if its better than a mackie then it would be a step up... I need a new board something fierce!

[Statick]

If I can find a drummer who knows how to show up and not suck, I'm still planning some tests.

hey, that's me !

[bbkong]

Then get on over here!

I've got six new mics to try out too. Maybe more by the end of the day, I'm going to a studio garage sale.

[kats]

Well BBkong, you were too slow for me so I snapped a 24ch that became available.:Wink:

Unfortunately the new room won't be ready until March, so it won't get a real work out till then. But the poor thing is gonna take a beating around the clock in spring. If it doesn't burn the joint down in 6 months I'll be happy:very happy:

On a serious note, I'm mainly interested in it's summing and master section. Not looking for any "improvements" or "magic". I just need somehting to interface and route all the outboard and mix with the least amount of degradation as possible.

I'd love to hear your impression in that area when you have a chance!

[Statick]

Then get on over here!

I've got six new mics to try out too. Maybe more by the end of the day, I'm going to a studio garage sale.

don't think i can afford a trip stateside just yet !

[amaudio]

Hey everyone I just wanted to know if anyone is running their direct outs on their ATB to a balanced patchbay. I noticed that I have to boost the crap out of the lowend to get the amount that I want and someone told me that going from unbalanced to balanced to Pro Tools could cause that. If that is the case does anyone know how to rectify the situation. Please help!

-Joey Adkins

[Kris]

I'm running the unbalanced outs to a balanced patchbay... 1/2 normaled to my Mytek and ProTools inputs... I just didn't connect anything to the ring on the patchbay (from the console)... from the patchbay to the converters, ring is connected...(that way I can go from external pres, etc. into PTools). seems to work just fine.

[bbkong]

Mmm. Yeah.

So we had a little clusterfuck/shootout over the weekend and came back with these results after I mopped up the drool on the board:

MXL beat Samson mics, 2 to 1, still can't beat a 57 on the snare and the board rocks when you go past 6 on anything. I need bigger mains. And better bar stools.

The direct outs go straight to Radar over here, but the inserts will all be split out to a balanced patchbay soon for all the outboard.

[magicchord]

I'm running the unbalanced outs to a balanced patchbay... 1/2 normaled to my Mytek and ProTools inputs... I just didn't connect anything to the ring on the patchbay (from the console)... from the patchbay to the converters, ring is connected...(that way I can go from external pres, etc. into PTools). seems to work just fine.

If it was me, and it wasn't, I'd connect the ground of the unbalanced outs to the ring, so the converter inputs can null out the ground loop hum better. But if it works fine, don't mess with it.

[Mixerpuppet]

still can't beat a 57 on the snare

Try some wooden sticks maybe...


thier longer and easier to swing...


:Wink:

[magicchord]

A 57 is great for stuffing my trousers before the big gig, where a Telefunken U47 would just be overkill.

[kwiksilver]

A 57 is great for stuffing my trousers before the big gig, where a Telefunken U47 would just be overkill.

A 58's got better shape.

:lol:

[Mixerpuppet]

A 58 got's better shape.

:lol:

No kidding...

Who wants to show up to a gig like the headless horseman...

Not that having a large diaphragm is bad...

[bbkong]

Harumph.

It took a while to find this thing, it was so buried, but I thought I'd post an update on this board now that it's taken a few beatings.

I've tracked drums through it several times, and really like the results. I can get that heart stopping kik sound I tend to like too much and I can hear the difference between the snares in my collection. Like gunshots. Very cool. Tracking drums is fun again.

I pushed some acoustic guitar through it, a vocal track and even accordian and it seems to be doing a great job of just plain sounding good.

This last week it saved a live show that was tracked on an adat with 58's back in '95. That was an impressive bit of un-mangling.

It does like to be pushed, but it can be pushed too hard. I guess you can only cram so many distorto channels into the 2 buss on any board.

I have noticed a minscule amount of crosstalk in the monitor selector switch, but it's more visible than audible, not a big issue.

A chip of paint on the front edge of the chassis lifted up a couple of weeks ago when I pulled a piece of board tape off, but everything else seems to be holding up fine. No loose knobs, no faders feeling funky or anything.

Dealing with patching has been a little challenging, particularly interfacing with gear that uses xlr's and the board's trs inserts, but difficult isn't impossible, so I managed to muddle through that. I see some of those Neutrik combo connectors looming in the near future.

I'm still waiting to hear about the digital card for it and the meter bridge.

All in all, I think it's a neat little ass kicker. I might get a 16 channel to use as an expansion.

Mucho gusto!

[Flipper]

Good to see it's working well for you BB.

I'm yet to get my 16 until late April early May down here in OZ.
which is kind of a pisser but what are you going to do???:Roll eyes:

I just finished paying for it. I also picked up my Motu HD192 rack to run it through so i've got bits and peices sitting around in boxes waiting for my ATB.

Blah blah blah....

Anyway good to hear that when it does get here it should be a good little board...

[mousdrvr]

Good to see it's working well for you BB.

I'm yet to get my 16 until late April early May down here in OZ.
which is kind of a pisser but what are you going to do???:Roll eyes:

I just finished paying for it. I also picked up my Motu HD192 rack to run it through so i've got bits and peices sitting around in boxes waiting for my ATB.

Blah blah blah....

Anyway good to hear that when it does get here it should be a good little board...

Yo Flip, headed up town with the gear eh?

how you liking the Motu HD192?

-mous

[Flipper]

Yo Flip, headed up town with the gear eh?

how you liking the Motu HD192?

-mous


Hey Mous whats doing mate???

Yeah i busted my ass to save every dollar possible before this year started and i bought some goodies.
I have no fucking idea how the motu's sound at this stage as they're still sitting in there box.
As i was saying earlier i'm still waiting for my ATB.

But i'm sure it will be all woth it .

[mousdrvr]

Hey Mous whats doing mate???

Yeah i busted my ass to save every dollar possible before this year started and i bought some goodies.
I have no fucking idea how the motu's sound at this stage as they're still sitting in there box.
As i was saying earlier i'm still waiting for my ATB.

But i'm sure it will be all woth it .

Hold the phone! You did not go staight from a poo box to an ATB!?

That is the coolest thing I've heard in forever.

mmm .... we don't have the right smilies up here so you'll have to take the thought for the deed.

I show you the goats!!!

-mous

[David Aurora]

Good to see it's working well for you BB.

I'm yet to get my 16 until late April early May down here in OZ.
which is kind of a pisser but what are you going to do???:Roll eyes:

I just finished paying for it. I also picked up my Motu HD192 rack to run it through so i've got bits and peices sitting around in boxes waiting for my ATB.

Blah blah blah....

Anyway good to hear that when it does get here it should be a good little board...




ill be waiting at your door with a 58 and a guitar to hear the bastard!

[Flipper]

ill be waiting at your door with a 58 and a guitar to hear the bastard!

You'll be the first fucker i ring....


That reminds me answer the fucking phone....:lol:

[alanhyatt]

Wow, I can't believe you have not got your console yet.... We shipped everything out quite a while ago, but I guess you are long way off and it takes time to get it there. I would assume you got the tracking number from Justin, so if we can help, let us know.

I hope it did not take too much of a beating along the way. That's a long way to go and lot of hands to get it there...

Keep us posted....

[Flipper]

Hey Alan as much as i apreciate your concern it was you who sent an e-mail to my local dealer (Brisbane) explaining that we (Australia) wouldn't see any consoles until the second shipment.

Hence no Toft until April/May.

This is not something i have ordered/paid for direct from PMI, this is commming through the Australian distributer.
Which they have done nothing wrong nor has Toft or PMI.

All it means is that i wait a little longer and get a revised version which suits me fine.

Accept fot the wait of course.:lol:

It's good to know that your watching the progress/reports on all aspects of this product Alan.

Nice work.

[bbkong]

It appears I may have spoken too soon.

One of the fader knobs has gone a little wobbly and I see a dab of hot glue in my future.

Boo fuckin hoo.

[alanhyatt]

Hey Alan as much as i apreciate your concern it was you who sent an e-mail to my local dealer (Brisbane) explaining that we (Australia) wouldn't see any consoles until the second shipment.

Hence no Toft until April/May.

This is not something i have ordered/paid for direct from PMI, this is commming through the Australian distributer.
Which they have done nothing wrong nor has Toft or PMI.

All it means is that i wait a little longer and get a revised version which suits me fine.

Accept fot the wait of course.:lol:

It's good to know that your watching the progress/reports on all aspects of this product Alan.

Nice work.

Got it now....The second production run is being built now. All the PC boards are getting stuffed, metal work is at paint. I think in about three weeks all will be completed and ready to ship to us, but we have to go over for the final QC and inspection.

So, hang in there, they are coming......

[pianodano]

It appears I may have spoken too soon.

One of the fader knobs has gone a little wobbly and I see a dab of hot glue in my future.

Boo fuckin hoo.

:icon_eek: Dang

btw, I knew you were a genius. Just look at all the rep power you've got. What do rep powers represent anyway ?

[Tim Halligan]

Alan or Flipper,

Just out of curiosity - who is the Australian agent...because it hasn't actually been shouted from the rooftops down here...


Cheers,
Tim

[Watershed]

http://www.frontendaudio.com.au/

[Tim Halligan]

Ta.

They've certainly been keeping that quiet...mind you, I guess if you can't actually get any product, there's not much point in advertising...


Cheers,
Tim

[David Aurora]

Any news on the meter bridges?

[Flipper]

Aparentley they started designing them or working on them or somthing like that but i think they are more concerned with the digital card at the moment...

I'm sure Alan will let it be known...

[Watershed]

A decent ADAT card or two will make them powerful little beasties!

[bbkong]

:icon_eek: Dang

btw, I knew you were a genius. Just look at all the rep power you've got. What do rep powers represent anyway ?


Chips for the casino they're building in the east wing.

That and I get to cut the line at the bathroom.

[Barish]

Includes a free hair cut before 11am Mondays and Thursdays and all you can eat half the price between 12 midnight and 6am too.

B.

[magicchord]

Yeah, but they only do buzz cuts.

[Barish]

Whaddya do, beggars can't be choosers.


Shearing is the best you'll get for free, but hey, in the land of the blind, the single-eyed is the king.

B.

[dnafe]

Where in God's name to you get these little sayings Barish?

[pounce]

Includes a free hair cut before 11am Mondays and Thursdays and all you can eat half the price between 12 midnight and 6am too.

B.

http://www.channel4.com/media/userpages/accepted/71204_BadHaircut.jpg

[bbkong]

http://www.channel4.com/media/userpages/accepted/71204_BadHaircut.jpg

Skating so dangerously close to the truth...

[David Aurora]

Where in God's name to you get these little sayings Barish?

havent you heard that one? its even in a tom waits song (singapore)

"We sail tonight for singapore,
Were all as mad as hatters here
Ive fallen for a tawny moor,
Took off to the land of nod
Drank with all the chinamen,
Walked the sewers of paris
I danced along a colored wind,
Dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me

We sail tonight for singapore,
Dont fall asleep while youre ashore
Cross your heart and hope to die
When you hear the children cry
Let marrow bone and cleaver choose
While making feet for children shoes
Through the alley, back from hell,
When you hear that steeple bell
You must say goodbye to me

Wipe him down with gasoline
til his arms are hard and mean
From now on boys this iron boats your home
So heave away, boys

We sail tonight for singapore,
Take your blankets from the floor
Wash your mouth out by the door,
The whole towns made of iron ore
Every witness turns to steam,
They all become italian dreams
Fill your pockets up with earth,
Get yourself a dollars worth
Away boys, away boys, heave away

The captain is a one-armed dwarf,
Hes throwing dice along the wharf
In the land of the blind
The one-eyed man is king, so take this ring

We sail tonight for singapore,
Were all as mad as hatters here
Ive fallen for a tawny moor,
Took off to the land of nod
Drank with all the chinamen,
Walked the sewers of paris
I drank along a colored wind,
I dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me"

[mousdrvr]

Ok not trying to start any poo here, but I got to get my man's back. B and I have had lengthy correspondence and I can assure you that his command of English is far superior to many a native speaker. Moreover, the Turks have a very rich oral tradition and it may well be that he is translating some of these phrases directly from his native tongue, not ever having heard them in English. My point is that they may not be malapropisms at all. In some cases the Turks may have had them first.

Ok sorry for the interruption. Please cary on


-mous

[David Aurora]

dont think he was questioning the phrase, i got the impression he'd never heard it.

seemed clear enough to me. shit, i always thought barish WAS a native english speaker :icon_eek: for some reason i thought his parents were turk and he was from scotland. now im scared of how i reached that conclusion....:lol:

[Flipper]

well firstly let me just say that this thing looks the business no doubting it's cosmetic value...
The other half couldn't give a rats ass about nobs and faders and even she was quite taken by it ...


Anyway it's fair to say this thing was going to impress as i've just gone from a crudbox to a Motu HD192 conveters to and from the toft Atb16 clocked by a UA2192. WTF..... yes it's an improvement.

So i guess basically what i'm saying is that i'm comparing apples to oranges....... The oranges taste good.

However the shiny annodised nobs are not a sloted fitting style nob they are however glued on and mine must have been made on a friday afternoon because the nob that came off had no reminants of glue other than the stain where the glue brush coped a dab.

I'm not going to tell you how great it sounds because it does sound good but i have nothing really to compare it too.One thing i will say is that it's totally changed the way i work and it's a shit load of fun as well, and now means i can run outboard gear if and when i get some.
It's proving how bad previuos mixes were and really showing up excess noise that i couldn't seem to hear. (but that is obviously becuase of the UA. )

All in all it's a good desk that i'm happy with and is well complimented by the Ua and the HD's.

Wireing it up did't seem to be to much of an issue other than the 2 trk retun being a single balanced input and not left and right which initially cuased me a bit out of phase action ....(dumbass)

Anyway i guess if you need a sml footprint console that doesn't cost the earth this isworth a shot...

As it gets a bit more use i'll keep you posted...

Flip

[bbkong]

Well, I'm impressed that you went to the trouble of finding this old thread to share your impression of this new board.

I've been down the road with it for a while and I'm still thrilled by the functionality of the eq and the almost universal utility of the onboard pres in tracking. Dollar for dollar, it still kicks anything's ass in the price range and I wouldn't hesitate to hand over a finished product on it for a second.

I still haven't heard any news about the meter bridge, but I'm a lot more interested in the digi I/O in the works.

You can get a taste of the sound of it from Team Milk Carton's tune.

[Flipper]

I do like the idea of a meter bridge but the digital card would be nice to.

[ajcamlet]

a meter bridge would go a long way in my world....

[lebouche]

http://www.guitarworlduk.com/SFSHOP/index.html?lang=en-uk&target=d506.html


a fair price? (click on the basket)

but seriously is there a cheapest agent in the UK?

What problems would I encounter buying from the states...

[Flipper]

At that price you can't go wrong........:icon_eek:

[barks]

It appears I may have spoken too soon.

One of the fader knobs has gone a little wobbly and I see a dab of hot glue in my future.

Boo fuckin hoo.

Hi all,

We had this problem initially with our ATB32 at the Leeds College of Music.
The pot caps do lift off with a little work (ouch) and are anodised caps on a splined, plastic insert. The nuts that hold the pot to the metal plate come loose and a little nip up did the trick. We had about 15 knobs go this way, all easily fixed, but I did contact Malcolm, and he said he would check with QC at the factory to make sure they are applying enough 'torque' when they assemble.
Hope you are enjoying the console, all good with it here. Some very nice results from it.

best

barks

[Brendo]

barks - i think bubba was talking about a fader top, not a knob.

welcome to the womb.

[pianodano]

Hi all,

We had this problem initially with our ATB32 at the Leeds College of Music.
The pot caps do lift off with a little work (ouch) and are anodised caps on a splined, plastic insert. The nuts that hold the pot to the metal plate come loose and a little nip up did the trick. We had about 15 knobs go this way, all easily fixed, but I did contact Malcolm, and he said he would check with QC at the factory to make sure they are applying enough 'torque' when they assemble.
Hope you are enjoying the console, all good with it here. Some very nice results from it.

best

barks

Barks,

Are you guys printing to actual tape ? Wondering what your experience is if you are. I have to push the channels kinda hard to get the output levels normally used to record to a actual tape machine. Machine is aligned spot on.

I am using the DIRECT outs to tape

I have reserved 1-8 and busses for the future DA/AD card.

Another thing is although the aux sends seem to be sending good levels, the FX returns just don't seen to be very hot. I often have to return effects through channels (which I have no spares on the 32) in order to get outboard up to appropriate levels.

Danny

[barks]

barks - i think bubba was talking about a fader top, not a knob.

welcome to the womb.

Great, first post and I'm barking (geddit) up the wrong tree!!

Ours are a little wobbly too, but after 6 months of 60+ students using it 7 days a week, it's still in one piece and working fine. When we got brand new Soundcraft Sapphyres back in 1997 they were exhibiting bigger problems by this time.

thanks for the welcome.

barks

[barks]

Barks,

Are you guys printing to actual tape ? Wondering what your experience is if you are. I have to push the channels kinda hard to get the output levels normally used to record to a actual tape machine. Machine is aligned spot on.

I am using the DIRECT outs to tape

I have reserved 1-8 and busses for the future DA/AD card.

Another thing is although the aux sends seem to be sending good levels, the FX returns just don't seen to be very hot. I often have to return effects through channels (which I have no spares on the 32) in order to get outboard up to appropriate levels.

Danny

Hi pd,

no, boringly just into Protools via Digi192 digital interfaces. At the moment we have Behringer ADA-8000's do the conversion (I know, I know...budget constraints applied at the time, shortly to be replaced at the next capital bids round). No level issues at all that I am aware of. Set the pots on the ADA-8000 at the +4 mark and there is a healthy signal at @-18 to -15dbfs (ref 0db from the ATB). On the return (fader reverse, monitor main channel) gain at 12 o'clock (0 mark) level is more or less the same.
As for FX, had not really noticed. Just twiddled til they sounded ok. Are your fx outputting at -10 or +4?

barks

[pianodano]

Hi Barks,

Thanks for the reply. I must be one of the few Toft users that is using tape in lieu of digtal. I have a digital mixer for the DAW which I am very happy with, that I have subbed into the Toft. It is just weird seeing the LED meters on the Toft in the upper end of the reds trying to get a tape level of maybe - 10 average vu on the recorder. As I said, tape recorder is in perfect (nearly) alignment. And on the remix, I have to reduce the input trim. RE the FX returns, all of my outboard effects are looking for +4 in and (in theory) they output +4.

Danny

[alanhyatt]

Hey guys...been a while since I have been here. We have been very busy and trying to get all our work done.

I am happy that you guys are happy. We continue to make improvements in QC where we can. I hear you on the knobs and fader caps...We are happy to send you new ones if you need them...Caps and knobs that is...not consoles!

We are on the third production now. We have some 600 of these out there now, and another 300 on the way to us, so sales are good, thanks to you guys.

The meter bridge was pushed back in time as Malcolm is doing the A-Range unit, so look for this end of year. Digital card has been a nightmare. We had a third party vendor do it, but he is taking forever and is still not done.... We are thinking of just tossing on a few ADAT connectors on the thing....

We have purchased Valley People several months ago and are very busy with that. So I have been so busy I could not spare time to get on and see what all the threads are doing...

I am always open for comments and suggestions. You can always email them direct to me. If anyone is having issues, let me know. We have spare metal works coming in, so if you need a new 8 way panel bbkong, we can do that...

Just here to say hello, let you know we are alive and well....Let me know how I can help.

[Brendo]

Hey guys...We have purchased Valley People


!!!!!!!!!

[pianodano]

Chips for the casino they're building in the east wing.

That and I get to cut the line at the bathroom.


LOL on the rep point's answer. They ought to have a whole boatload of them by now, the way they add up so quick around here. I mean like the poster above me has something like 53 million some odd rep points:lol: Poor Barks has only one. Maybe somebody can front him some.

[barks]

Wow, I've jumped from 1 to a 9 figure number.
Are you guys my new friends or just lulling me into a false sense of security...:icon_eek:

BB K, keeping that Hammond oiled? Love to hear what you guys do in that shack.

Alan H, did you sort out your percussion problem?

I've just inherited a hammond clock that my grandfather had in his doctors practice in Dublin in the late 30's. Its on my Hammond right now...nice little project to get going.

best to all

barks

[Brendo]

I mean like the poster above me has something like 53 million some odd rep points:lol:

Actually, I have 2,147,483,647 rep points. 536,870,964 is my rep power, the amount of rep points I can give or take...

[Pimp-X]

I have just done a couple of mixes on Bubba's Toft. So far I have only one significant complaint. There is no visual indication of which channel strip is soloed, short of shooching down in the chair to see which button is down. It's a workflow thing.

Short of that, I'm pretty thrilled with the sonics of the board.

[pianodano]

Actually, I have 2,147,483,647 rep points. 536,870,964 is my rep power, the amount of rep points I can give or take...

:Surprised: Well I sure am impressed.

[pianodano]

Wow, I've jumped from 1 to a 9 figure number.
Are you guys my new friends or just lulling me into a false sense of security...:icon_eek:

best to all

barks


Barks,

:D You'll have several bazillions or maybe even gazillions if you make another post or two.

Danny

[Dr. Bob]

Just a quick note of observation from Summer Camp...

While I have yet to put my grubbies on Bubba's knobs, I heard Pimp's mix. Not only is the pimpster a skilled craftsman at knob twistin', he's one hell of a barber!

Seriously though, the Toft's minor short-coming's are definitely outweighed by is sonic quality.

My only two gripes about the console are the solo indicator, and a lack of a larger framed model.

If it's at all possible to tie two of them together, and slap a meterbridge on this puppy... gentlemen... this is THE console to snag for the value.

[Downing Street]

Watch your fucking mouth, you fuck.
And the rest of us should watch out for Bubba's new reality show:
"Who Wants To Kiss My Fucking Ass?", no doubt on KFMA

[mousdrvr]

Watch your fucking mouth, you fuck.
And the rest of us should watch out for Bubba's new reality show:
"Who Wants To Kiss My Fucking Ass?", no doubt on KFMA

Uh............... was this really the thread to which you had intended to post? :lol:


-mous

[bbkong]

Uh............... was this really the thread to which you had intended to post? :lol:


-mous

Considering he has to post on an Atari he found in a dumpster while riding a exercise bike with a gen pack on the side, it's a wonder it's even in English.

He's an old dog and forum life is a new trick. He'll catch on eventually.


I should probably add that "Who Wants To Kiss My Fucking Ass?" is an old motto of mine.


Hell, it still is.




hm. coffee cup....

[Fulcrum]

Bubba: sh! You're giving away the theme for the next round of Womb Merch!

[bbkong]

Womb merch?

What Womb merch?

I got my own. (http://www.cafepress.com/ribshackswag)

[mousdrvr]

Womb merch?

What Womb merch?

I got my own. (http://www.cafepress.com/ribshackswag)

I was gonna say but I didn't want to steal yer thunder, this now being the thread for all things Monkey! :lol:

Speaking of which, I think they should make a BBKong edition Toft. Maybe do something about a solo light, goose the pre's and .... uh... maybe a cup holder. Yeah and an ash tray too!



-mous

[Dr. Bob]

Speaking of which, I think they should make a BBKong edition Toft. Maybe do something about a solo light, goose the pre's and .... uh... maybe a cup holder. Yeah and an ash tray too!


Uhhhh.... Two cup holders??

or

maybe two built-in huggies... yeah, thats the ticket!

Maybe a bun warmer and at least a pull out tray for cactus juice, salt and limes.

[bbkong]

Absolutely.

And I want my name on the meter bridge in chrome.

[Dr. Bob]

I dunno...

I'm thinkin' somethin' with class....

How's this work for ya there Bubba? :Twisted:

[mousdrvr]

Guys,

I'm kinda serious here. Ya know, like Fletcher with Merc Audio edition stuff. I know the thing is packed pretty tight but it sure looks like you could put another led on each strip. So you ship it with that and the meter bridge and uh.... maybe make all those green pots chrome. I mean come on it's gotta have some chrome!

I'll be gettin one when Lily and I move, So will Eddie and The Pimp will as well, if that solo thing is dealt with. I'm sure after a year or so a whole bunch of folks will have coughed up because Bubba stepped up out of the gate. I mean just look at that poo fling over the service charge. No ribs and beer :Roll eyes: a likely story! Just how many of these things do you have to have been responsible for before you get a little co-branding out of the deal?


-mous

[jerryskid]

Womb merch?

What Womb merch?

I got my own. (http://www.cafepress.com/ribshackswag)


22 bucks for a Tshirt, plus shipping ????

A 13 dollar coffee mug ???

Do you sell things to the army too ???????


guess I'll stick with Wallmart........


thanx for nothing..........:Wink:

[bbkong]

Sorry, Jerry, but that's the way that particular machine is set up. If you want to hang with the kewel kids, ya gotta buy a ticket.
It runs at a loss as it is.

As soon as I have an extra couple thou layin around doing nothing I'll set up a warehouse with a full time shipping/receiving crew and sell branded guitars, amps and iPods in banana colors.

Until then, this is all I got. How about a nice fridge magnet?

Of course there's ways to get stuff for free...like showing up at summer camp or submitting a design I can use.

Until then, at least stay away from Walmart. Those people are evil.

[El Cabron]

As soon as I have an extra couple thou layin around doing nothing I'll set up a warehouse with...iPods in banana colors.



I knew it.
:lol:

Eddie

[ffaudio]

Sorry to bump this back up. I'm just curious about the preamps and eq's of this board. Are they colored, or uncolored?

Also, BB, I don't think I read you commenting at all about the summing.

[bbkong]

Sorry to bump this back up. I'm just curious about the preamps and eq's of this board. Are they colored, or uncolored?

That's some touchy terminology around here today so I'll say the pres aren't totally transparent like say a Neve or an API. They have character, a pleasant character. Ear pleasing. They make a 57 sound like a..a...well, they sound better.

Some people say the eq's are 'musical' if you can interpret that far fetched term, but to me they just work right and work well.


Also, BB, I don't think I read you commenting at all about the summing.

Probably because it adds up. If you forget to adjust your trim back at mix time you'll swear it's distorting, but it's actually just real easy to overdrive the channel. Since I discovered that little unique-osity I haven't had any issues with the summing, even with everything patched directly to the 2 buss.

After beating this thing around for a while my biggest complaint is still having to use the braille method to find the solo'd channel.

AND I'M STILL WAITING ON THE METER BRIDGE AND THE DIGITAL I/O.





*ahem*

[mousdrvr]

After beating this thing around for a while my biggest complaint is still having to use the braille method to find the solo'd channel.



And you guys thought I was joking about the BBKong edition :lol:



-mous

[ffaudio]

This thread won't die.

BBKong. I was wondering if you could explain what made you choose this board over other contenders in the same price range, and what those were if you had any particular in mind.

[Aardvark]

This thread won't die.

BBKong. I was wondering if you could explain what made you choose this board over other contenders in the same price range...


It was the next day delivery.


Cheers
Aardvark
:Roll eyes::Wink:

[bbkong]

I didn't really see any others in the same price range.

I was considering one of the Midas boards I recall but they weren't sexy enough.

I actually took a leap of faith on the ATB because Zerman wouldn't shut up about me getting a Trident. I read enough about the ATB to grok that Malcolm had reused most of his original design and I figgered if it was good enough for the Archies, it was good enough for me.

Still love it though. You can hear it if you look around the board a bit.

Still can't get the egg timer to work though.

AND I STILL DON'T HAVE THE DIGITAL I/O.








<ahem>

[bbkong]

Ha. This old thing is still around.

Related to my other post in here, the ATB pres don't really have enough poop to push a ribbon. Plenty good on dyn's and conds, though.

I figger if you gotta crank something to 10 to get signal, something's not right.

[Kenny Gioia]

I figger if you gotta crank something to 10 to get signal, something's not right.

Then avoid, at all costs, using an SSL mic pre.

:Thumbdown: :Thumbdown: :Thumbdown:

[otek]

I figger if you gotta crank something to 10 to get signal, something's not right.

BB, what about that AEA preamp we checked out that had 84 dB of gain?


otek

[bbkong]

I heard some nasty things about that particular pre and I'm a little hesitant about it.

Of course, I have to consider the source, a guy who is a boutique pre builder here in town who spent considerable time in the trenches with a certain B. Averill and wants about 4X the amount for his little nuggets of gold.

I was gonna take up the mooch invitation on that AEA when I go back for my second mic.

[otek]

I heard some nasty things about that particular pre and I'm a little hesitant about it.

Well, whaddaya want for 450 bucks a channel?
:D


otek

[bbkong]

A rubber biscuit.


I'll keep lookin'.

I want the one Judy Garland would insist on using.