Cape 6 Players' Feedback Thread

[J.G.]

Since this CAPE was markedly different in terms of the roles we all played, I wanted to start a thread just for the players, to share in our collective experiences--whether it was a maiden voyage into CAPE-ville, or one of many trips.

For me, it began with a session-player-attitude going into all of them. On previous Capes I freely suggested things that I thought might prove interesting, and what was sticky stuck, what wasn't slid down and blobbed onto the floor tiles. This time, under the comfort blanket of having an omni-potent producer at the helm, I hung back with most of my ideas, (some snuck out, like the odd lyrical offering, for eg... ; ), while others for the vox parts manifested themselves on scratch tracks; but for the most part, I tried to concentrate more on delivering what I percieved was wanted of me stylistically than much else--which sometimes proved a tad challenging for a peanut gallery-er like myself. :Razz:

Since I was on a few different teams, I'll list my takes on my takes for them separately:

TEAM GOES 2-11: I had SUCH a nice time working with this funky song, and even though it took me a few swings, (about 45 harmonized tracks later! ; ), to get it, I did eventually make contact with the ball and put a smile on Goes' face.

That said, "there is safety in numbers"; referring here to the tracks Iiiii had envisioned as the lead(s) and mixed accordingly on my scratch, which ended up as BG's--with said previous BG parts ending up as the lead(s) on the verses. Even though I didn't see that working at the time, it didn't take me long to zen with and really dig that low-end-in-front result; made for a nice, dark 'n velvety vibe that to me really works on this song.

It never ceases to amaze how differently other ears hear things.

TEAM CHRIS LAMBRECHTS: Since I wasn't singing lead on this most enjoyable Goes-tune, I had very little involvment aside from "yeah's" and "woohoo's!", etc., until after Hiltzy's scratches were recorded. At that point I chomped down on my session and recorded the BG's with considerable verve, (including the one request that Chris had for the chorus. Aside from that, he basically allowed me to let 'er rip as I saw fit). Thankfully, for the most part, he liked what he heard and quickly blended most of it into the tasty mix.

TEAM ST. ROBERT: This one was done 100% session-player, as I was approached by him to add to the BG section after team selections had been made. Robert promptly sent me an audio track of exactly what he wanted sung, which I parroted and sent back and voila. Not much further interaction aside from the usual, "cheers's", "my pleasure's", etc.


So, dooooooo tell about how the ride(s) went for y'all?

: J

[Tim Halligan]

For me, it began with a session-player-attitude going into all of them. On previous Capes I freely suggested things that I thought might prove interesting, and what was sticky stuck, what wasn't slid down and blobbed onto the floor tiles.


I definitely went into this Cape with the session-player attitude...as that was what was called for in this year's guidelines. Like previous CAPEs, I submitted tracks that I thought/hoped were interesting or useful to the song. Some of them got used, some were flung under the bus...but that's how it's supposed to be, so that's not a problem...and that's happened in every CAPE I've been involved with.

Where this Cape differed for me was at the beginning of the process.

In previous go-rounds, the appointed songwriter would submit a song or songs, and the team would make suggestions for changes/improvements/total re-writes. Maybe it's not an ideal situation - especially for the poor suffering songwriter - but at least the collaboration started at that point, and all of the the team members could feel some personal "ownership" of the song.

This time, we were presented with the song and the producer's "vision" as a fait accompli.

We were wound up, pointed in the right-ish direction, and let go.

Then the mix happens. No input from the team is asked for. The song appears, and that's that.

I like my team.

I don't mind my team's song. I don't love it, but it's OK.

What I don't feel is any sense of connection to, or "ownership" of the song at all.

It was just like a job...except for the whole y'know...getting paid thing. :D

I did it to the best of my ability.

Next.



This was definitely the Producers' CAPE, and as such has probably fulfilled all of the expectations that the initial criteria set out.

The most collaborative part of the whole process appears to be between the producer and the mixer.

Given that the "E" in CAPE went from being "Experiment" to "Experience", perhaps we should think of another word that begins with "C" to replace "Collaborative".

Cheers,
Tim

[QweziRider]

My producer was an ass and wouldn't let my inner Geddy out. Made me play some wussed out bass crap that matched the kick drum.

:Twisted:

[Tim Halligan]

My producer was an ass and wouldn't let my inner Geddy out. Made me play some wussed out bass crap that matched the kick drum.

:Twisted:


You talking about Dianne again?

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

[J.G.]

Given that the "E" in CAPE went from being "Experiment" to "Experience", perhaps we should think of another word that begins with "C" to replace "Collaborative".

Cross-continental?

: J

[Tim Halligan]

Cross-continental?

: J

CCAPE?

We used to have the Bbasement, so why not?

:D


Cheers,
Tim

[Johnny]

Cooperative?

[dwoz]

I am SO WITH YOU on this, Quezi....


I keep submitting bass tracks to the producer on Team Dwoz....and the "clenched sphincter" producer keeps rejecting them.


I wonder sometimes if I should just tell him....DUDE, YOU HAVE DWOZ ON BASS, NOT MALICE. GET OVER IT.


dwoz

[QweziRider]

You talking about Dianne again?

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim
Hell no! I live to close to her to get away with that. She knows where to find me.

Which does bring me to a legitimate player's perspective on this thread: playing bass on Shredbed. Definitely not a genre I've ever done. I'll record something that I think will kick ass, only to realize what little I know 12 hours later. Record, wipe, repeat.

[maccool]

This was my third Cape, and although the ground rules were different, the process was a lot like the others. But I did come at it trying to think like I think a session player might think. I am not a session player and have no idea how one might think, so I used my imagination! But I figured that I was "hired" to do what I do, and so I tried to do that to the best of my ability, even though I frankly didn't like the song to begin with. That given, I put that away, out of my mind, and simply tried to do the best that I could do for the song with the producer's initially declared vision. I don't know how close we all came to that vision. In trying to simply be a session player, to do my best for this song, I learned a huge amount, and that is the value I have gotten from this Cape. I learned that I can! Good value for me! Should we do another Producer's Cape? You know, I think we should. It has produced some great work first time out, and I think another round under the same ground rules would be much better now that the idea has been tried. Is what I think.

[shhpeaceful]

(this was my first cape)

... I too approached it like a session player, since it SAID SPECIFICALLY TO DO SO.

I did a rough, then our producer had a few ideas he wanted to see implemented, then I did my final with those ideas in there. Got the thumbs up, and didn't listen to anything else until the mix was done (I wanted to be surprised.)

The team got along fine, and I had fun.

When's the next one?

[mousdrvr]

Exactly Mac!

I love the "hired" thing. While all my teammates were all highly talented and very cool, I didn't get the same sense of camaraderie as with other teams. However for me this was more than made up for by having a single signatory.

I got the distinct feeling there was one cat on our team who thought I was completely inappropriate for the gig, not that he was less than a perfect gentleman. Now that's totally cool, but it could have been uncomfortable under the old rules. With this system I could just shrug and say well "that's too bad" give Lees what he wanted and when he signed off I was done and ready for whatever is next. No drama No pouty lip.

A little colder perhaps, but a lot less draining.




-mous

[ella]

Well, let’s see…

Team Chris Lambrechts:

Heard the demo and thought that a bouncy staccato type approach might fit, kinda like that STP song ‘Sour Girl’, so I tried it out over the track. Having been in this position before I worked on it just in case it was to become the keeper… which it did. This gave me a touch of whiplash as I am used to at least a few rounds back and forth before signoff. Listening to how it sits in the track, I realize that I got lucky. Yay!

Team Dnafe:

Got the lowdown on the intended outcome, listened to the demo and tried to get life insurance… which was turned down when they discovered why. Too great a risk. Once the piano and vox were interpreted I sat down and tried to figure out what to do. Tracked a quick demo, sent it to dnafe. He kinda dug it but had several suggestions. Tracked it again, but with an eye on this one being a keeper. Getting the timing right was a motherfucker, because even the slightest push or pull dramatically affected the way the song moved and the perception of the tempo in its rubato-ness. Since I generally try to avoid edits, I must’ve done 10 punches per phrase and then comped something that could then be used as a guide. This was a nice idea that didn’t work at all. I ended up with more comp tracks, just longer ones. After sweating, cursing, micro-editing and rapidly aging, I finally ended up with something submittable and sent it off. Then I heard the horribly blatant sharp note… I was so obsessed with getting the time feel right I completely missed it. Luckily, and with the obligatory razzing, the good and kindly sir dnafe tweaked it and that was that.

[QweziRider]

...and simply tried to do the best that I could do for the song with the producer's initially declared vision. I don't know how close we all came to that vision.
For the most part...dead on. As a group, some moments were not what I envisioned, some exceeded my vision. Put it all together in an ensemble and you all were dead on. Ask my wife, she'd agree. As an oboe player (read, real musician compared to me), she'll tell me when my ideas suck. You guys nailed it.

No smoke going up skirts there, either.

[seagate]

I quit my team this year...

I don't like the session approach for Cape, not what it's about for me.

[sqkychair]

This one was fun for me. Normally I get all stressed out about the general direction of the song. I will put all kinds of ideas together and see what sounds good. Sometimes, I have a great idea, but I need the rest of the band to 'play along' which is tough to do.

This time, I simply followed the producer's wishes.

This tune was definitely not my typical genre. It was designed to be a straight ahead punk tune. Now, I feel like I can do that, but it's not something I do a lot.

Even so, punk guitar is well... fun. No need to finesse around. Crank it and go.

We had a demo guitar to follow as well, so the only real writing I had to do was on the leads and that is always pretty much a blast for me.

On the next Cape, I don't know, I might not feel like following orders so much, but this time, it felt pretty good.

Also, I find that if you have a REALLY great idea, your Point Man or Producer is going to give it some serious consideration. If your so called 'great idea' sucks, hey, move on to something else. It wasn't the only idea you'll ever come up with.:Wink:

[Carlo]

Given that the "E" in CAPE went from being "Experiment" to "Experience", perhaps we should think of another word that begins with "C" to replace "Collaborative".

Cheers,
Tim

I'm holdin' much comment till the damn songs come out, Saxplayerz, and Shredbed...but it all comes down to the communication skills, or desire, of yer "producer", and there were some parts of that that did not sit well with me.

I'm hip to the real world, but that's why I'm here...to collaborate...lots of times, we players were just standin' around in the alley, behind the studio...every now and then, an assistant would holler out the front door, "Hey, yer next"

Not much fun...but then again...this was the "producer" Cape.

[ckerian]

LOL. dude, i think I just spoiled you! hehe.

Talk about one of cker's meltdowns. I fucking exploded last year on poor seagate and cosmic. "we got a fcking keyboardist submitting guitar tracks and a guitarist submitting keyboard parts on the night before deadline."

LMAO!

Seagate didnt talk to me for 4 months.

Sadly, I ENCOURAGED them to submit tracks to me untill the last day. LOL. Only thing is I didnt scream UNCLE when i should of. Your input and critique was invaluable and literally in the home stretch I had a break down from overload of information/tracks.

It was great! Love what we did! You probably know my unpredictability by now is pretty predictable.

Sorry to hear you dropped off the team this year. I probably agree with you that this years cape approach might not have been best bvut hey, we're all learning and setting the standard in online collaborations.

I quit my team this year...

I don't like the session approach for Cape, not what it's about for me.

[seagate]

:lol:
Azimuth was fun...

I should have saved the messages you sent, they'd make great entries in the "Best of..."

But it's cool about dropping out this year, it's all a learning experience. Now I know to stay away from this format.


LOL. dude, i think I just spoiled you! hehe.

Talk about one of cker's meltdowns. I fucking exploded last year on poor seagate and cosmic. "we got a fcking keyboardist submitting guitar tracks and a guitarist submitting keyboard parts on the night before deadline."

LMAO!

Seagate didnt talk to me for 4 months.

Sadly, I ENCOURAGED them to submit tracks to me untill the last day. LOL. Only thing is I didnt scream UNCLE when i should of. Your input and critique was invaluable and literally in the home stretch I had a break down from overload of information/tracks.

It was great! Love what we did! You probably know my unpredictability by now is pretty predictable.

Sorry to hear you dropped off the team this year. I probably agree with you that this years cape approach might not have been best bvut hey, we're all learning and setting the standard in online collaborations.

[Oberlehrer]

I recall that during the previous CAPE somebody (Goes? dwoz? Otek?) said that in fact there is always a producer. Somebody is going to make a decision now and then (especially when two people cannot agree on something). Perhaps there is a single producer, perhaps this role is ends up in different hands over the course of the production. But a producer there usually is.

Now, "producer" can mean a lot of different things, like having a very defined idea for the final result from the beginning and basically using the "session players" to realize that. Or that idea can be less defined and more vague and the material from the players serves as inspiration. Very occasionally I have worked (as a player) with the latter kind and I didn't like it at all. So the "session player" approach isn't automatically a bad thing.

I didn't know at all how this particular CAPE would turn out for me. All in all I liked it a lot and it wasn't much different for me than the previous one.

[Halsu]

This cape was rather smooth sailing for me.

I did one scratch track take quite early on, recording directly to my puter. St Robert had made a very good demo, so i more or less just copied his bass line and added a few twists here and there.

He told me what parts sounded shitty, and i promised to fix those. We also talked very briefly about the sound he wanted - just enough to make a decision what bass, and which mike to use ;-)

Some time went by, and suddenly deadline was looming... we didn't yet have a finished drum track, so i recorded on top of click + grt / keys / vox, this time with real equipment, but just the DI:d signal. I also supplied a track i ran through an amp sim.

Playing to click was definately not the optimal way to do it groove wise, but i guess good enough - that second track was accepted.

I can imagine St Robert had quite a lot of editing to do in order to get the group grooving as well as he did - but such is life ;-)

[drummertom]

LOL. dude, i think I just spoiled you! hehe.

Talk about one of cker's meltdowns. I fucking exploded last year on poor seagate and cosmic.

Where was I when all that was going on?! Oh, that's right, I was the drummer and probably off shagging someone's girlfriend while the real work was going on. :lol:

I was on that team and thought it went great. cker, you did a great job of pulling everything together, and thank goodness Seagate came up with a bass line and some guitar!

[AngelBomb]

Pretty smooth sailing here also. Did a couple of scratch takes, got some suggestions from the producer, and cut the final. There were some arrangement changes made later that I wish could have been factored into the original performance, but oh well.

This was my first CAPE and with the producer role it seemed too much like the farmed out tracking work that I've been doing lately, so I guess it just kind of seemed like work to me.
Wich makes me think maybe there was a better connection between teams in the past, where you didn't just feel like the hired help when it was done. Though I can see how it would be cool for those who don't typically function like a hired gun. Guess it all depends on what kind of stuff you deal with day in and day out.

[chrisj]

Actually I liked that part, because I've only ever been any good as a hired gun- it's a long slow slog to get to where I can come up with anything that's really central to the song.

I don't know how much Aardvark is erasing and rerecording, but WORKING with him was just wonderful and very simple- a confident, "Okay, this is what I need from you!", me going "I did this, assuming you meant that, was I right?" and a "Exactly, that's exactly what you were supposed to do, kthxbye". Pretty undramatic, and I hope my stuff makes the cut.

Shredbed was very difficult, mainly because I was NOT good enough for the producer(s) and could not do anything useful no matter what I tried. I haven't got the faintest idea whether ANYTHING I did will remain, and I busted my balls trying to get with the spirit of the thing, but I think it's just too much of a stretch for me. Rather than something I always wanted license to do, I'm thinking shred is something I have to just avoid ever attempting. And nothing of value was lost :lol:

I tried mastering for one team but I was in the process of going down with death flu and must have fucked something up, because it didn't fly.

So- I got nothin'! :lol:

But I might be on the Aardy team if he hasn't erased me yet, and I always wanted to be on an Aardy team, so I guess I just have to reconcile myself to setting my watch to Aardvark time. It's madly frustrating because there is the potential for a UTTERLY killer tune there which will move you to tears and shake your world- and I bet that's the hang-up, nothing gets to come out unless it's perfect. So much for my crappy trax :D

[CaptainHook]

Isn't mixerman mixing Aardvarks team?
If so, i'm sure he said he can't get to the mix until he finishes
his current project.

Which means Aardy can't even erase and re-do the mix job
until Mixie has done it!

[amopae]

Well, this was my second CAPE and I did something for two teams. First, I got to do my part on Team Shredbed while everything started cooking on Team Qwezirider. I did a small solo for it and I really hope it'll stay if Dianne allows it to be =D
On Qwezi's team it was all painless except that, at first, I wasn't that thrilled with the song, as maccool pointed it out. Actually, I think all of us weren't that up for that song and we all ended up doing something that took the original vision Qwezi had for it and did as much as we could to put it where he asked us. I think we actually came up with a much better result than we all thought will come out and, I don't know if it was just me but, I ended up liking the song VERY much in the end...

This was a fun CAPE, I'm really looking forward for the next one, either it's a Producer's CAPE or just the same ol' "band format" CAPE

[jerryskid]

wow..what can I say...first CAPE that finished for me....it was like working a session...I had the easy job...the song was there..and Grapestomper asked me nicely to change it.....Of course I was hesitant at first......but then I saw his side......he turned a darkly cynical song and sweetened it..and Hiltzy sold the song...she saw just what I intended without even a word between us...the only PM was me thanking her for nailing it..everyone on this team were pros....My head is bigger than Barry Bond's!!!...


:Wink:

[TubaSolo]

I guess now it all boils down to you liking the producer's approach to the song or not. If you do, you're likely to have a great time. If not, you'd wish the producer was merely a pointman, because those were just coordinators and could be influenced, manipulated, and thanks to players' lobbying, the song would end up either sounding like a shapeless patchwork, or the true gem it was bound to be. But since the producer is in full command he will obviously maintain his vision no matter what (unless he'd be overthrown, dismissed, if that's even possible, or he quits -but we still have to witness that). My point is: the song, and you as a player, have more to lose from a mediocre producer (you lose interest) than from a lousy pointman (you tend to get more involved).

I was on two teams, and each yielded a radically different experience. Although I couldn't tell what the end result would sound like until very late in the process, I had no problem relying on one producer's approach right off the bat, and almost felt like I was working with "another me" most of the time (he was even probably a little less of a tyrant actually). You don't need much really; just a rough demo, a few hints and pointers, a skype conversation maybe, can go a long way in showing that the guy is confident, organized, and does know where he's going, even if you're pretty much left in the dark for most of the process.

Liking the mix was for me the anchovy on the pizza, because I had already enjoyed the process, and even if some of my tracks weren't used it didn't matter.

The other one made me wish we were back to Cape 5 days: great expectations from a very enticing idea stylistically, but...:Uh oh: :icon_eek: :Confused: :Mad: :Roll eyes: etc.., anyways, after trying to influence the production in a slightly different direction, to no avail, I lost interest pretty quickly, submitted a few tracks I couldn't really enjoy recording. And I wouldn't want anybody I care for to hear the final mix.

Even though it must seem incredibly pretentious, I still can't help but hearing very clearly what I longed for, the only way I feel the song would have reached its full potential and impact.

But what are you gonna do? Challenge the producer, rebel, create a mutiny, start a coup? Yeah right. Just resign, re-sign next year and fuhgetaboutit. As a player, in that case and unless you're very masochistic, you have no other choice than getting less involved.

[J.G.]

There are so many factors that go into determining how an experience like CAPE will pan out, pardon the pun...

For me, I think that one incredibley important piece of the zenditude-potential puzzle are the communicative chops of the producer. Sure, vision is key, no getting around that, but just as key when working, (especially blindly like this), online is simply taking the time to speak with each team member, one-on-one as soon as the project begins, be it on skype, or on the phone.

Touching bass in a personal, live way can often make or break the tone(s) of a team, as not everyone is a writer, nor does everyone realize that they may not be a writer.

Perhaps the "C" in CAPE is better fitted to the word communication?

: J

[Tim Halligan]

There are so many factors that go into determining how an experience like CAPE will pan out, pardon the pun...

For me, I think that one incredibley important piece of the zenditude-potential puzzle are the communicative chops of the producer. Sure, vision is key, no getting around that, but just as key when working, (expecially blindly like this), online is simply taking the time to speak with each team member, one-on-one as soon as the project begins, be it on skype, or on the phone.


Yes. Communication is such an important element, but it doesn't necessarily have to be one-on-one, nor does it necessarily have to be in person, via skype, or on the phone.

I've never had any "live" interaction with a producer/pointman in all of the CAPEs that I've been involved in. All communication has been via group forum or PM which has been enough to get the job done.

It's the message - not the medium.



Touching bass in a personal, live way...


Ew.

Or...lucky bass.

:lol:


...can often make or break the tone(s) of a team, as not everyone is a writer, nor does everyone realize that they may not be a writer.


True.

But if their opinions are heard and time is taken to explain why the player's stupid idea won't fly, rather than being shunned because "I'm the producer/pointman and I say so", or worse still...ignored, at least the player will feel some connection to the team and the song.

Of course, this is only applicable to the CAPE scenario which - let's face it - bears almost no resemblence to the real world.


Perhaps the "C" in CAPE is better fitted to the word communication?

: J

Indeed.


Cheers,
Tim

[J.G.]

Yes. Communication is such an important element, but it doesn't necessarily have to be one-on-one, nor does it necessarily have to be in person, via skype, or on the phone.

I've never had any "live" interaction with a producer/pointman in all of the CAPEs that I've been involved in. All communication has been via group forum or PM which has been enough to get the job done.

It's the message - not the medium.

I agree the message is paramount, as is the delivery. I too have done lots of Net-based-work having never even heard the voice of a co-collaborator, but in all of these scenarios, the people have been very empathic writers AND readers.

I suppose I'd have done better to qualify my hilighting the importance of live communication for CAPE-ing moreso when the written word just doesn't cut the ole mustard. It's moments like those that numbers should be dialed.

That said, I reckon that the chances of eggs 'n ego's rotting after an actual phone-u-lar ice-breaker's been made are significantly lower--so why not just have a blab?

; J

[gitarted]

CAPE= Can't Always Please Everyone :icon_eek: :Wink:
















Shredbed is still cooking...:Razz:

[J.G.]

^^ :D

: J

[Johnny]

Even dealing with a bad producer whose ideas totally run contrary to yours can be a good experience. You learn how to play what you don't want to play and still try to mean it.

(This is a purely hypothetical situation with no resemblence to my CAPE experiences!)

[Carlo]

But if their opinions are heard and time is taken to explain why the player's stupid idea won't fly, rather than being shunned because "I'm the producer/pointman and I say so", or worse still...ignored, at least the player will feel some connection to the team and the song.
Cheers,
Tim

A very key thing, as far as one of my teams went...the acknowledgment of a player is important...when a player posts a part, and gets no response, what is he gonna feel?

A dog needs somethin', other than a turned back. He goes and eats somewhere else!

You don't HAVE to have a great bed-side manner...but it sure helps.:Wink:

[ella]

Even dealing with a bad producer whose ideas totally run contrary to yours can be a good experience. You learn how to play what you don't want to play and still try to mean it.

(This is a purely hypothetical situation with no resemblence to my CAPE experiences!)

Yep. This is more reflective of the real world, in my experience anyways. Sometimes the direction is sooo unnatural it feels like you're being told to play with your eyelids, but in the majority of cases, you can listen to the final product and hear how it was meant to fit. This can have the effect of opening your ears to different approaches.. always a good thing.

[QweziRider]

Even though it must seem incredibly pretentious, I still can't help but hearing very clearly what I longed for, the only way I feel the song would have reached its full potential and impact.

But what are you gonna do? Challenge the producer, rebel, create a mutiny, start a coup? Yeah right. Just resign, re-sign next year and fuhgetaboutit. As a player, in that case and unless you're very masochistic, you have no other choice than getting less involved.
Sign up next time as a producer. Seriously. I don't mean that in a smart ass manner, but that's the best way (should we do it with producers again) to guarantee you get the chance to exercise your vision and personnel skills on a song. And frankly, it's kind of rewarding to the ego to get something to the finish line the way you imagined.

Give it a shot next time. It's kind of fun.

[QweziRider]

Touching bass in a personal, live way can often make or break the tone(s) of a team, ...
I wouldn't touch my bass in any other way. :Twisted:

[st robert]

I guess now it all boils down to you liking the producer's approach to the song or not. If you do, you're likely to have a great time. If not, you'd wish the producer was merely a pointman, because those were just coordinators and could be influenced, manipulated, and thanks to players' lobbying, the song would end up either sounding like a shapeless patchwork, or the true gem it was bound to be. But since the producer is in full command he will obviously maintain his vision no matter what (unless he'd be overthrown, dismissed, if that's even possible, or he quits -but we still have to witness that). My point is: the song, and you as a player, have more to lose from a mediocre producer (you lose interest) than from a lousy pointman (you tend to get more involved).

I was on two teams, and each yielded a radically different experience. Although I couldn't tell what the end result would sound like until very late in the process, I had no problem relying on one producer's approach right off the bat, and almost felt like I was working with "another me" most of the time (he was even probably a little less of a tyrant actually). You don't need much really; just a rough demo, a few hints and pointers, a skype conversation maybe, can go a long way in showing that the guy is confident, organized, and does know where he's going, even if you're pretty much left in the dark for most of the process.

Liking the mix was for me the anchovy on the pizza, because I had already enjoyed the process, and even if some of my tracks weren't used it didn't matter.

The other one made me wish we were back to Cape 5 days: great expectations from a very enticing idea stylistically, but...:Uh oh: :icon_eek: :Confused: :Mad: :Roll eyes: etc.., anyways, after trying to influence the production in a slightly different direction, to no avail, I lost interest pretty quickly, submitted a few tracks I couldn't really enjoy recording. And I wouldn't want anybody I care for to hear the final mix.

Even though it must seem incredibly pretentious, I still can't help but hearing very clearly what I longed for, the only way I feel the song would have reached its full potential and impact.

But what are you gonna do? Challenge the producer, rebel, create a mutiny, start a coup? Yeah right. Just resign, re-sign next year and fuhgetaboutit. As a player, in that case and unless you're very masochistic, you have no other choice than getting less involved.

as the padoosah of the second example here, and the proud owner of the live grenade placed in my lap by the poster, i would like to say that maintaining such a narrow view of things is doing yourself a tremendous disservice.

the kind of music that tuba excels in is dance/house/electronica... very good stuff and well produced all for that genre. and so when the word disco was tossed around in preproduction, no doubt his ears perked right up at the thought of doing something dancy in a predominantly guitar rock crowd. i liked the idea too. but our views of what disco meant had different shades of meaning, his slant was euro electronic, mine coming from an american motowny, 70's, chicago, tower of power kinda thing.

both valid sides of the fence. at the onset, i had my vision of what i wanted, whipped up a full demo and let the team hear it, giving production pointers on what i wanted from each member as it fit with that demo. it seemed simple enough: gimme a rhodes track, dry. maybe some clav. what came back was definitely dancy but from the electronica/house perspective. to a house beat and phlanged. so i reiterated what i wanted, and recieved string tracks and then some epiano that happened to clash with each other and with the chord structure of the song. i began to sense a lack of understanding. the version that tuba would have wanted would certainly have been different, just as dnafe's was different. and it's all good.

but time was short.

then came a well-intentioned post about mixing disco by tuba that had good points in it but was still coming from the perspective of his field of choice. i began to get annoyed.

ultimately i just recorded the key parts and tried to finish the fucker without going too late. although i feel bad that no understanding was able to be reached, i was still under the gun to turn something in with keyboards.

the moral of this story, i think, is that to grow and truly enjoy this cape thing, ya gotta be able to stretch a bit and find the other way, try something new. i felt my way was valid, and i was in charge. not the only way to go, certainly, but the way we were going and it was far too late to start veering off course for a member who couldn't see outside his own front yard.

the song is reasonably well received as it is.
perhaps the tuba version would have had full potential and impact, but that's difficult to say with two good versions sitting in front of everybody.

had i been the keyboardist on his team, we would be able to enjoy his vision and i know that i would have settled into the situation with little drama.

lastly, i do not want this to become a place where cat fights occur over this shit because it really isn't that big a deal. i just wanted to present the other side of this particular case and echo johnny's sentiments that there is potential to grow even when it seems to be a lost cause to you.

Even dealing with a bad producer whose ideas totally run contrary to yours can be a good experience. You learn how to play what you don't want to play and still try to mean it.



best wishes,

rob

[mousdrvr]

I'm cool with the iron fist of the producer. I think the producer as glorified point man is ticket to disaster. I read a study once on stress which said that the best way to give someone a heart attack ( figuratively ) was to put them in a position where they had real responsibility but no real authority. That's not cool.

As a player I'd just like the opportunity to know what I'm getting into, so I can minimize the chances of a bad fit. This time out it was easy as I've long been a great admirer of Lees' and I went in with complete trust. Even though I thought "man there is no way in hell I can sing this song effectively" Seriously, I even pm'd Lees to that effect, not that I don't think it's a great song. But I had the attitude "Lees you are my Captain and I will follow you to the gates of Cape hell" It paid off for me personally as I really grew a lot form the whole experience.

Everybody on our team was very strong musically and very cool. Also, everybody seemed to be genuinely cool with the new format. What I find really interesting is that even under those conditions, the song went somewhere a little different than I think Lees had originally intended. I think he was going for something a little more mournful and introspective. When I first heard the near completed track. I thought "damn there goes my game plan" But still it was SO good at being just what it was I felt I had to do my very best to honor it. I think it's to Lees credit that he "rode the horse in the direction it was going" I'm guessing my teammates feel the same.


-mous

[J.G.]

"Touching bass"... Alright already, heheh! :Wink: I've been spelling it punny for so long now that it's become 2nd nature.

As for the produuusah posting in the PLAYAS' thread, we'll let that one sliiiiiiiiiide--like backbones and sacroiliacs, 'n rapsacks 'n backpacks...

Re:

Carlo: ...when a player posts a part, and gets no response, what is he gonna feel?

A dog needs somethin', other than a turned back. He goes and eats somewhere else!

You don't HAVE to have a great bed-side manner...but it sure helps.

Leave it to you, my pooch-lovin' pal to put it plain--as a friend of mine once sampled, "No communication, no love."

: J

[st robert]

sorry. no more posts fro....




dammit.

[dwoz]

Isn't mixerman mixing Aardvarks team?
If so, i'm sure he said he can't get to the mix until he finishes
his current project.

Which means Aardy can't even erase and re-do the mix job
until Mixie has done it!


You make the fatal mistake of assuming that Aardvark is bound by mundane "space/time" constraints.


dwoz

[TubaSolo]

maintaining such a narrow view of things is doing yourself a tremendous disservice

Well, you know what they say, the grass is always flatter on the other side of the pool... :icon_eek: :lol:

I realize I should have known better than opening a can 'o' worms (duh). I'm sorry if you felt offended in any way. Let's just say you're right and it is a question of local sub-cultural background references & differences. I thus hereto and therefore apologize. In all good spirits :D

[Carlo]

Even though I thought "man there is no way in hell I can sing this song effectively" Seriously, I even pm'd Lees to that effect,
-mous

When are you gonna accept the fact, and fate, that you got pipes, man!:Twisted: :Thumbsup:

[Tim Armstrong]

I really didn't feel like my CaPE experience was really much different this time than previously, except for the fact that I wasn't a slacker this time (I have been quite late with my parts on some past ones :Redface: ).

I guess I was fortunate that my bass part pretty much wrote itself, and what I came up with fit pretty much right away (my initial track was a little rough, but I figured that out on my own even before Grapestomper did!). It was a change for me that I was asked to do a bunch of takes so that Pimp would have something to work with if needed, in the past I'd just work to get one take I was happy with, but it was fun to do, so...

I've been on some really great CaPE teams in the past, and on some that were less wonderful but got a song out, and most recently, on one that flamed out after a promising start, and I've been both good and bad as a teammate. This time it was all good...

Cheers, Tim

[drummertom]

My approach to this CaPE wasn't really different from the others I've played on. I approached it pretty much the same way, but on some of the past teams I've thrown out a suggestion here and there. On this team I put together a drum track that I thought would fit the tune and Grape's excellent description of his vision for the song (even though that didn't really mention anything drum-specific). My only suggestion was to make sure we kept the 5/8 part.

This is probably the first time I've had really specific suggestions on my drum track. Being the sideman, I incorporated the suggestion and off we went. It does help that Tarmadillo and I were somehow heading down the same groove.

A producer's CaPE requires alot of time, effort, and vision on the producer's part. Sure it is possible to get a song done (and a good one at that) if the producer moves to more of a point man role, but the strong minded produce will need willing sidemen to make his vision complete. We definitely had it all on Team Grapestomper.

[Stick]

First CAPE for me.

Ours went really smoothly, I guess. People got good stuff in on time. Maybe the vision changed a little from Lees' original thought, but if so, I think it did pretty early on... like, when we chose the tempo. But, I dunno, maybe it was later, and he just let it play out where it was headed. I'm sure some of that change was my doing, as I threw on some BGVs at the last second, and mixed the thing probably a little more "slick" than he was initially anticipating. But, if there were objections I didn't hear them... maybe Leester did hear it, and chose as the producer to go with what I did anyway.

Anyway, I didn't feel any negative vibe from anyone about how it went down or whatever. Maybe it was there and I just didn't see it... but from my perspective everything was hunky-dory.

Good times. Good times.

[Fulcrum]

What I don't feel is any sense of connection to, or "ownership" of the song at all.

It was just like a job...except for the whole y'know...getting paid thing. :D

I did it to the best of my ability.

Next.

Very, very trenchant observation Tim. Similar feelings here-- albeit that I "owned" Team EyreSpace's song for the length of time it took me to sing/track it. That may be the point of the exercise, or if not the point, at least an unexpected consequence.

[dikledoux]

Very, very trenchant observation Tim. Similar feelings here-- albeit that I "owned" Team EyreSpace's song for the length of time it took me to sing/track it. That may be the point of the exercise, or if not the point, at least an unexpected consequence.
WOW. I agree this is a point worth fleshing out a bit more. And it's not just germaine to CAPE but working in music in general.

The idea that during any given musical interaction, one should attempt to completely embrace the thing and put out like it's the last thing you'll ever do. Then be able to completely walk away from it without looking back. It's no wonder musicians are whacky.

Completely committed, willfully disconnected.

This holds true even for the writer, no? A writer should bring their own DNA, guts, sweat, personality, etc. to each song and then be able to simply tear that page outta their notebook and start working on the next one. If a writer can't let go of their song, then why EVER give it to someone else to perform?

dik

[mingus]

I have had the good fortune of being on two Cape Teams with great teammates. My experiences were positive and both teams seemed to work together very well. There was no infighting, no one quit, everyone turned their tracks in on time, the musicianship and mixing were solid, there were no significant stresses or “diva moments” and our final products were submitted on time. Both Capes were somewhat different in how the songs were approached and how much input I, as a player, had on the finished product.

On Cape V Team Elemental, I played electric guitars and had quite a bit of leeway from the team in how I approached my parts. We had numerous Skype conference calls and the whole thing was very much a group effort in terms of the overall direction of the song and how the individual parts would work in the arrangement. Everyone wanted to do what was best for the song and I think we accomplished that goal. We were able to communicate with and feed off of each other and that pushed us to play better and more cohesively as a group.

On Cape 6 Team Normie, I was drafted as a bass player (in spite of my screen name, I am a decent guitar player and merely an adequate, at best, bass player). This team operated a bit differently than my last one. Early on, I submitted a demo track and heard nothing. After a few weeks, I got a message with an audio example of what the producer wanted to hear from me on bass. I suggested a few minor changes, which he agreed to, and otherwise played it the way he wanted. In the meantime, the structure of the song had changed a bit and the guitar parts had changed as well. I thought we would end up with something a bit chaotic, but the final product ended up better and much more coherent than I expected. I'm pretty sure the end result is pretty close to what Normie envisioned. This experience was like making a piece of a mystery puzzle and submitting it for assembly without ever knowing what the big picture was. It was a bit unnerving (not knowing how my part fit in with the rest), but overall it seemed to work.

Personally, I prefer the experience of the more active player involvement I had in Cape V as opposed to the purely session work I had in Cape 6. However, both were good experiences.

In addition to collaborating with others, playing outside one's preferred genre or even playing a secondary (as opposed to primary) instrument, I think the Cape experience is supposed to be educational and fun. For me, it has accomplished those goals.

[Carlo]

WOW. I agree this is a point worth fleshing out a bit more. And it's not just germaine to CAPE but working in music in general.

It's no wonder musicians are whacky.

Completely committed, willfully disconnected.
dik

The nail is hit squarely!:Thumbsup:

[Fulcrum]

This holds true even for the writer, no? A writer should bring their own DNA, guts, sweat, personality, etc. to each song and then be able to simply tear that page outta their notebook and start working on the next one. If a writer can't let go of their song, then why EVER give it to someone else to perform?

I've been blocked for so long now I can just about remember what it's like to actually finish something... but yes. You need to bring the best of yourself to the table when you sit down to write-- if you are going to learn anything. On the solitary nature of writing, Anne Lamott wrote:

You are going to have to give and give and give, or there's no reason for you to be writing. You have to give from the deepest part of yourself, and you are going to have to go on giving, and the giving is going to have to be its own reward. There is no cosmic importance to your getting something published, but there is in learning to be a giver.


And Spider Robinson:

...(I)f there's one thing my upbringing prepared me to accept as certain, it is the proposition that work of any kind is a drag....

Isn't that incredible? It took me better than a quarter century to learn, the hard way, that hard work at something you want to be doing is the most fun that you can have out of bed.... To learn that the dummies are the ones who think it possible to cheat the boss or the customers without cheating themselves; to learn that the smart man finds ways to make everything he does be work; to learn that "leisure" time is truly pleasurable (indeed tolerable) only to the extent that it is subconscious grazing for information with which to infuse newer, better work.

[Jeff_C]

On the solitary nature of writing, Anne Lamott wrote:

And Spider Robinson:

Who else but Fulcrum can quote Ann Lamott and Spider Robinson in the same post? And it's relevant!

[Calvin]

My thoughts on the past two CAPEs mirror those of mingus, for the most part. For CAPE 5, we had a very capable point man, but he listened to all ideas, and we sorted things out together in a team environment, with weekly Skype conferences. We'd all suggest parts and ideas, and comment on the tracking. We had terrific teammates, so everything was very cordial. I felt very invested in what was happening.

For CAPE 6, I had a terrific producer. Very capable and professional, obviously. However, the experience was very different from CAPE 5. This time around, none of the ideas were mine, and I had no hand in picking the material. This is perfectly fine, as I understand the role of the producer. It's his/her vision we're trying to execute, and hopefully I came close to giving the producer what he wanted (I certainly tried). However, there was definitely no feeling of belonging to a team. There were no team meetings, no interaction with other team members. Team meetings would have been a waste of time, since there were no decisions to be made, no opinions to listen to, so I certainly understand not holding them. I'm merely pointing out that the "team" aspect of CAPE was pretty much non-existent this time 'round. I had no role to play before I received instructions from the producer regarding what he wanted on the guitar front, and I had no role a week later when my tracking was done. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it was an entirely different dynamic.

In both cases, we turned out what I think to be quality product. Both experiences were good experiences, but I definitely felt more invested in CAPE 5.

Of course, if we continue with the producer model in the future, I can always throw my hat into the ring to produce if I want my ideas heard and if I want a hand in picking the material. And, I can try to foster a team dynamic if I produce. So, I guess the answer to bridging the gap between my two experiences would be to try to grab a producer spot in the future.

Just a few ramblings.

[pacAir]

However, there was definitely no feeling of belonging to a team... I'm merely pointing out that the "team" aspect of CAPE was pretty much non-existent this time 'round.

You know, I have been struggling internally about what I thought I missed out on in Cape 6, as a part of me felt incomplete. I think Calvin has expressed it for me.

While I was only a spectator for Cape 5, I lived the experience vicariously through all the post-Cape 5 back-slapping and banter. I think I had developed a certain set of expectations as to what I might take away from Cape 6 THEN the format modifications came along.

I think that the disparity between the subliminal expectations and the process of Cape 6 are at the root of my feeling that something was missing.

While I was proud of my team and the mix, I had the feeling that my parts were not really born of my creativity but of my response to the "programming" of our Producer. As our drummer Johnny has said: "I went into this event in full drum-machine mode."

On many levels I liked the Producer's Cape but I hope a way can be found to take the best of both world's and combine them for even greater benefit. However, that may take more time than we were given to complete this Cape.

It is just damn difficult to do this stuff in a short time frame remotely! I think that is why I marvel at and appreciate all the Cape submissions!

[Carlo]

In both cases, we turned out what I think to be quality product. Both experiences were good experiences, but I definitely felt more invested in CAPE 5.



:Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

[lebouche]

I didn't do much this time...but that was the role. I thought it'd be more of a sociable event but just as well as I've been run off my feet.
Would like to sing next cape :). Better start practicing so I can make some good demo's to convince someine it's worth doing.

Still a cool experience.
:Thumbsup:

[archtop]

Even though I was on a dream team (Team Elborgan), and we had zero troubles, and a very competent producer, turned out a fine piece of work, that our producer can be very proud of.
(and hopefully you will get to hear it soon)

I think the "producers" CaPE, is a CaPE for 18,
instead of the previous format of CaPE,
which is a CaPE for 118.

I think alot of us are going, "well at least he got his"
and we are left feeling less than pleasured.

I think "producers" CaPE could be a fine thing
as another level of CaPE

but not as the Only, or the main CaPE.

I don't feel it hit it out of the park as was hoped.

[Johnny]

I think maybe a little more time to demo and track might be nice. If I could've gone back and forth a couple times with demos it would've been better.

I still definitely feel that having producers is the way to go, at least with CAPE. We can collab the rest of the year.

[Jeff_C]

Why not alternate formats? I see advantages to both and lessons to learn from both. I am enjoying the current format (I use the present tense because my team's not finished yet) but I enjoyed CAPE 5 as well. I'll save my comparisons and contrasts until I've seen this one through.

I bet there's room on the calendar and interest among the forum members to support Producers' CAPE, Team CAPE, and MixIt.

[J.G.]

Yummmp, "different strokes"...

As far as satisfaction goes, I'm sure that my level of pleased-ness this go 'round has plenty to do with the fact that for the most part, I was allowed considerable freedoms in the creating of my parts.

Being a writer as well as a singer, I have no doubt that if every team I had been on had been strictly a parroting-job, I wouldn't be singin' the same tune now.

I'm just glad that so much of what I did ended up off the cutting room floors.

; J

[dikledoux]

I may be the luckiest of all CAPE participants so far. Maybe not, but it's been a pretty sweet ride for me each time I get into one:
Cape III - Chardonnay (drums)
Cape IV - Tidal (mixing, drums, bgvox)
Cape V - Homestead (drums) and guest on Conception (drums)
Cape VI - Goes211 (drums) and Aardvark (drums)

And it's been just the nicest, easy-goingest and talented bunch of people the entire time. Doesn't hurt that each of the above teams had really, really good songs to work with.

This time around I got something of a more varied experience than in the past.

On Goes' team he was ok with me waiting for Malice to bust out the bass part that everyone is slobberin' over. I KNEW that's what was gonna happen, so that's why I wanted to wait and be able to play against his parts. Goes had a pretty clear idea about where the song should go, complete with a very polished demo for us to emulate. That changed a bit as parts were submitted, but not a ton.

Aardy's team is the first time I've submitted more than one version of the drum parts - very different approaches to the song each time. From his prelim edits it looks like parts of both takes will get used. But I was working on the first pass at the drum part before anything BUT the scratch vocals existed - very much trying to push the song in the direction Aardy dictated right from the start. Early mixes that just had vocals, drums and steel guitar were INCREDIBLY fun to listen to. Gut-wrenchingly beautiful. Can't wait til that one shows up done (hint, hint).

dik

[Grapestomper]

I realize that this is a thread for musicians, not producers, but I might be able to contribute something to this discussion about giving the team a sence of ownership. My team members have said some very nice things about their experience this go-'round.

I think that may have to do with my own limitations as a producer: my strength is as a songwriter, so my primary contribution as producer was in tweaking the song and the (structural) arrangement. Once that was done, I pointed the team in a general direction, and let 'em go.

With the arrangement done, I told the team "we're going for light pop-rock: think Jill Sobule meets Kasey Chambers". The rest was them, and they carried it off perfectly. In the process, they each got to bring their own creativity to the table.

There was a little back-and-fourth, of course. At one point, for example, I asked Spock for a "sparcer" option. He served one up, and in the end, I think Pimp used a bit of each.

Because I recognised that my musicians were better, more sensitive players of their instruments that I am, I was comfortable running my team more like an "old-school" Cape, rather than trying to micro-manage.

Again, I took this approach because I recognize my own strengths and weaknesses, but it may wind up being a usefull model for future Capes.

Mike

[Carlo]

I don't feel it hit it out of the park as was hoped.

And he can swing...I seen him!:Thumbsup:

[nobby]

I think "producers" CaPE could be a fine thing
as another level of CaPE

but not as the Only, or the main CaPE.

I agree.

[Carlo]

(vox is an instrument, BTW)

I'd prefer that participants wouldn't feel marginalized in their efforts:

Nobby...you took the words right out of everybody's mouths!

But I liked these two alot!:Thumbsup:

[Immanuel]

This was my first CAPE, so I can not compare to the old format(s) with more than my imagination. I think our producer was quite "democratic". On the other hand, I had a bit of a fight finding out where to go. I think, mostly, we had pretty good team spirit, and that was nice. Despite internal forum discussions about taking me of the team, our producer accepted the fact, that I didn't fit his idea as a singer and tried to get the best out of it.

Could one potential difference between team-capes and producer-capes be, that with a producer-cape, there might be attempts to squize the individual musicians into the frame of the song, and with the team-capes, there will be attempts to squize the song into the, likely heterogenous, shape of the pile of musicians? Not trying to be judgemental about the quality of that here - just asking, if this is the experience of old time capers.

[seagate]

Despite internal forum discussions about taking me of the team, our producer accepted the fact, that I didn't fit his idea as a singer and tried to get the best out of it.


:icon_eek:

Bet that made you feel all warm and fuzzy inside...

[Immanuel]

Well, the first time it happened was before I had even uploaded a track. That did piss me off. Later on, when it became my turn to upload tracks, I worked my ass off and send a huge bunch of files to the mixers and the producer. After that, I kind of settled with the option that I wouldn't be in the final mix. I had given it a fair try, and that is all I can ask from myself. If that failed, so be it. Then there where some more discussions about my seat in the team, but it settled pretty quickly, I think. It wasn't like a "½-½ war", and on a personal level, there where actually also some nice aspects of how this "issue" was dealt with. As I said, mostly I found the team spirit really good and positive.

(Ok, I think I managed this without pointing fingers in specific directions. That is good.)