The main mistakes bands make with live shows

[pounce]

Playing live shows introduces a whole lot of variables that even the best bands might not be able to control. This article is meant to consider some of the main mistakes that bands make when booking and playing live shows. Hopefully, this info can help bands circumvent these pitfalls from the get go so they can concentrate on playing the shows and not get sideswiped by these common mistakes.

Mostly, the theme of this is communication, preparation, and attention to detail. With those considerations in line, the band can assure there are no show stopping surprises. So lets take a look at some common mistakes made by bands booking and playing live shows.

Paperwork - many bands don't even know how to put together tech riders, personal riders, contracts, etc. We are putting together other articles about the proper preparation of the paperwork as it's a very involved subject of it's own. Suffice it to say, your agreement with the venue should be spelled out clearly, in writing, and in advance. Everything from all the details about the money to any sound requirements that you have should be addressed at the time that the show is booked. Venues themselves are often unable or unwilling to accomodate last minute requests for anything you didn't ask for when booking the show. For instance, if you need a piano for your show don't assume the venue has a piano even if you've seen one there in the past - ask specifically about it. Relatedly, if you need the piano tuned, specify that. If it needs to be moved to a specific location on stage specify that so that the correct amount of people are available to help move the piano. Assuming anything about an things like an instrument and it's availability is a big mistake. Also, determine if there is a rental fee for using said instrument. The piano is just an example, it could be anything. However, the idea that every question needs to be asked, in advance, and in detail remains.

In fact, make sure you have asked for every single thing you need. This point comes up again and again. Monitor mixes, mics, cables, drum rugs, you name it. If you need it, ask for it in advance. Things like drum rugs are likely to be forgotten in the list and are exactly the kind of thing that you want to specify if you are renting kit.

Getting to the venue (time, place, contact person)

On the day of the show, you should already know where to park and load in. The band should know what time they are expected to arrive and load in, and relatedly the band should know who their contact person at the venue is. You might not be allowed in the venue until a certain time, and certianly on bigger shows the crew won't be there to unload the gear until the specified time. The sound check is the next thing that the band should know about. Knowing who the sound engineer is and when the soundguy is going to be ready for the band is important. A band might not be welcome to do things on stage before the soundguy arrives, so know that in advance so that you stay in good graces with the staff.

Soundcheck, well is for checking sound, balancing levels, getting things set technically for the show. Soundcheck isn't a rehearsal - if you don't know the songs by now you are screwed anyway. Soundcheck is not for one player to keep endlessly noodling on his instrument when the other folks are checking. Knock that shit out, please! After a quick line check, soundguys usually want the band to play one song just like they really will in the set. Let me say that again, this part of the soundcheck only works if the band PLAYS THE SONG WITH THE SAME VOLUME AND INTENSTIY AS THEY WILL PLAY THE ACTUAL SET. Checking as quietely as a church mouse and then playing like Metallica will assure that the soundman has not set your levels properly. Help the soundcrew to help you by following those three rules - no noodling out of turn, no rehearsing endlessly during a soundcheck, and play at the actual volume to that the soundguy is setting proper levels.

With respect to the performance, one thought comes first and foremost as a common mistake that bands make. Taking too much time on stage in between songs. The best bands I've ever seen seemed to have a show going on which constantly engaged the audience. That doesn't mean the band was playing every moment of the set, but the performers were specifically interacting with the audience the whole time. In fact, a larger lesson could be written about the best things to do onstage, and I certainly prefer when a band plays with minimal song changeover time in sets that are designed the way a DJ would, with consideration to how and when you will get the crowd moving and grooving with you. Done right, a band can achieve a steller audience reaction by playing to the crowd and managing their set lists properly. Tuning, idle chatter, figuring out what to play next, etc. are vibe killers and they ruin the show more than bands realize. Cut that out and PERFORM. While it's also true that bands like to drink, smoke, etc. and otherwise have a good time out when gigging, it should go without saying that most bands do not do their best work when drunk or otherwise sloshed. It may be fun for the band to play with a few drinks in them, but sometimes it isn't as fun for the audience HINT! Partying after the show is the best plan for a lot of reasons, being in control of your faculties while onstage is the best plan for a lot of reasons.

Turning down, guitarists I'm looking at you. The volume knob goes BOTH ways. Some bands don't realize that club PA's sometimes only have vocals and some kick drum in them. The other things on stage are loud enough by themselves (if not too loud). Sure, you have to get your tone. Having said that, if your blaring amp is overpowering everything else, and worse getting into all of the vocal mics, then every attempt to get the vocals over top of the instruments will in fact increase the volume of said amp as it's in the vocal channels. In a perfect world, a band would balance it's own volumes on stage between themselves. When you are playing arenas you have more liberties in terms of volume, but in clubs Johnny Tooloud kills the mix. 90% of the time, in clubs especially, the soundman can make your band sound better if you turn down a little bit. Play like a band, play together in a reasonably balanced kind of way, and even better yet ask the soundguy about what volume you should play on stage. If every band members is in a contest to play the loudest, there is not going to be a likelihood that the soundguy can make the band sound good. Occasionally turning down is a good thing, and having a shitty super loud amp onstage is a top ten list mistake that bands make over and over again.

Bring whatever strings, sticks, or other spares you might need. A little common sense goes a long way and can be the difference between a show happening or not. I've seen drummers show up to gigs without their own sticks before. I was pretty surprised, but apparently they were more surprised when they were told that I didn't have sticks for them. Your lack of planning does not my emergency make. I gotta respect bands that have some spare drum heads, strings, and so forth. This is a band that wants to make a show happen, and is prepared. Sometimes you can bum stuff from another band in an emergency, shit happens and we get that. However, bands that plan ahead more and have a few spares and extras in their pack get surprised a whole lot less than bands that don't !

Broken stuff - this one seems so obvious that you wouldn't think it would need to be mentioned. If you have a piece of broken gear or a cable that you know is flaky, fix it or replace it. Don't bring broken gear to a gig. Soundguys might go nuts trying to figure out why something is cutting in and out only to find out it's your cable ( and that you already knew wasn't working right at the last gig). It's amazing that something so easily repaired or replaced is allowed to go back onstage with a band. They won't repair themselves on the way to the show. Cold solder joints and funky cables probably account for the vast majority of what I see with respect to gear that needs some repair, and those repairs are easy and cheap.

Getting all the gear off the stage as soon as possible is the next point. Either for the next band to get on up there, or so the staff can get things all shut down for the night. Do not go out and chat up the crowd and start partying until the gear is off the stage. Consider the end of your set the moment all of the gear is off the stage. So don't hold up the show or piss off the staff, just get the gear off stage right away and then get to whatever else you want - talking to the crowd, your next drink, whatever. Be careful with the PA gear and mics on stage. Don't just throw mics on the floor. Drummers especially, please be careful around those mics. Soundguys often get those mics first since they are attached to or so tightly mixed in with the kit. You wouldn't want the soundguy to just toss your drums on the floor, so don't toss those mics on the floor. Really, respecting and taking care of all of the PA gear is important. Don't bang up the mics, don't mess with the wedges, don't mess up the mic stands. Bands that are especially rough with gear like stands and mics have been known to bring their own, which then allows them to perform freely. If it's not yours then no doubt the soundguy wants it taken care of. A band might be the star for that night, but that gear and that crew has to come back to do it all over again the next night. They want their stuff to work and look good for the next bands, and the next band deserves that as much as your band does. In the "this will never happen" department, it would be nice if bands didn't leave drinks all over the stage. These half finished drinks are little liquid bombs all over the place. Taking them off deck when the backline is being struck is ideal. When the stage is a wet mess it's inpleasant for everyone. Drinks in the stage box, on the cables, etc. is bad news. Please bring your drinks with you to the dressing room or whatnot.

These thoughts cover the main things bands do wrong at live shows, but can prevent. Thats the good news in this post, all of these pitfalls are easily preventable by any band. The ideas seem so obvious in retrospect that it's hard to believe that bands continue to make these mistakes every day in venues all around the world. Some planning, common sense, preparation, and communication with the soundguy can solve all of the above problems too.

I anticipate that I've left a few doozies off the list, and with the intent of having this be a helpful warning to bands, I welcome any other input into these kind of preventable problems that bands so regularly make in live shows.

[dnafe]

Playing too fucking LOUD

:grin:

sorry, I couldn't resist

[pounce]

yes, bands can sound better and more together frequently by having that one loud guitar turn down a little. or have the drummer play dynamically, and not just like popeye all the time. agreed.

[dnafe]

Excellent primer there Pounce...didn't see the loudness paragraph when I browsed through it.

My Bad

[pounce]

no, i added it after you MENTIONED it in such small type. a perfect and salient point that i agree with so much i put it into the first post. i don't want that point to be missed, so thanks for bringing it up.

[bunnerabb]

OK...


Show up on time. Please. The AE has a lilfe, too and you treating them a fixture and eating into their free time is NOT gonna make you any freinds
Do you have gear or a cable or two that was "dodgy" or "noisy" at the last gig? Do you think a day in the truck healed it? Maintain your gear.
Did you contact the club to make sure as to what they provided and what you need to bring with you? We have arrays, subs, amps, process and console. I've spent more than a couple of days scrambling up the street, to mooch mons, mics, stands and cables, for bands that didn't do their homework.
Are your volume demands excessive for the venue? ( Is it a tiny room? Is the stage behind the bar where bartenders have to be able to hear to sell whiskey and pay you? ) Do you think "loud as fuck" = "good"? There's a very good chance that the house AE knows the limitations of the venue and wants you to sound as good as possible, just like you do.


Nothing too complicated, there, but these are issues I address, every season and like Pounce says, in a nutshell; "Paperwork". Do your homework and be co-operative as possible with the house. We want a good show, too and odds are that the ones we do are well received if we're not closing up shop any time soon.

[dumbass]

I know this sounds like a little thing, but... Drum Rug...

Why the hell is this such a damn problem?

If your drummer is bringing his kit, DON'T expect the sound company to bring one unless it's on the rider!!!

I get tired of having to go to the venue rep and asking if I can borrow a floor mat... BRING YOUR OWN!

When a band forgets such a simple little damn thing, it delay's EVERYTHING. That eats into everybody's time.

One common thing that I see that impresses eevryone is to engage the audience. Get them involved... don't just talk to em'.

I'm not saying that you have to get them involved in every song, but the audience is there to be entertained... that's your job. So, fucking ENTERTAIN THEM!

1. Get them to clab, yell, scream "Wooop", or whatever... INVOLVE THEM in the show!

2. Thank the audience... OFTEN! They'll appreciate it by giving you feedback, sales, etc. A little graciousness goes a LONG way!

3. Thank the club owner, manager, and ESPECIALLY the bartenders and wait staff! It never hurts to mention to the audience to tip them well.

While not everyone performs like a Las Vegas, or Disneyland show, you should realize that the closer you can get to that level of entertainment, the better off you will probably be. Try to get that organized and that polished with your song transitions, lighting cues, etc.

Which brings up song starts & endings. Get them nailed down! You can screw up just about anywhere in the middle you want, but unless you have tight beginnings and endings, the audience will never forget, nor forgive you. -or- to put it another way...

If your starts and stops are dead on, the audience won't remember the fuckups in between.

[pounce]

I've added a bit more to the primer to assure that some more of these good points are very clearly there right from the getgo. These are all great points, and i know i've certainly seen all of these problems at some time or another (if not regularly).

please keep the good ideas coming


also, i think a seperate post is in order for the best things a band can do for a successful gig. i think the two things are large enough topics on thier own, even though they are related. so ok, i'll start the topic but will have to truly rely on input here from a band/performer perspective.

[Droolbucket]

Turning down, guitarists I'm looking at you. The volume knob goes BOTH ways.


Actually, it doesn't. Most non-guitar players are surprised to learn that the volume knob is a ratcheting type. It only goes up. So, two weeks ago when we played that big outdoor stage and I got to crank it up? That's now my minimum volume. Sorry, nothing I can do.:Coolio:

Really, the best thing I ever did as a guitarist was to put my amp on the side of the stage and shoot it across at me, instead of out toward the audience. I can hear my tone better, my slide playing is more accurate, and I can hear my vocal monitor a lot better. If my amp is being miked, and in most cases it is, it's now a stage monitor. It doesn't have to cover anything but the stage. I'm using a 40-watt combo amp with a single 12" speaker, and I really don't need that much. I don't think I've ever played it above 3. I don't think I'm gonna be dragging out my 100-watt Hiwatt half stack any time soon.

As far as band mistakes, I think I've made 'em all at some point, but it would take forever to list them all, and I'm too lazy to type that much!:Wink:

Droolbucket

[Tim Armstrong]

Really, the best thing I ever did as a guitarist was to put my amp on the side of the stage and shoot it across at me, instead of out toward the audience. I can hear my tone better, my slide playing is more accurate, and I can hear my vocal monitor a lot better. If my amp is being miked, and in most cases it is, it's now a stage monitor. It doesn't have to cover anything but the stage.

I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that there are at least two of us who do this!!!

:grin:

Tim

[bunnerabb]

" I have to play loud or I can't hear my amp!"

'That's because your ass has no ears."

'What?"

'It's aimed at your ass."

[dumbass]

" I have to play loud or I can't hear my amp!"

'That's because your ass has no ears."

'What?"

'It's aimed at your ass."

At the briefcase gig I do, the guitar player puts his lil' peavey on an amp tilt and puts it right over his vox monitor.

I get a good bit of stage volume from the back of the amp, but the bonus is that the guitar player doesn't have to have it in his wedge and if he needs to tweek something, he doesn't even have to turn around.

Kinda' the same with the bass player... I stuck a wedge of 2x4 under the front of the amp to tilt the drivers away from his butt... lo and behold... the bass level came down to where I could actually control it and he could finally hear!

[ggunn]

I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that there are at least two of us who do this!!!

:grin:

Tim

Make it three...

[dnafe]

no, i added it after you MENTIONED it in such small type. a perfect and salient point that i agree with so much i put it into the first post. i don't want that point to be missed, so thanks for bringing it up.


Good, I really thought I was losing it...afterall I am getting older

:D

[malice]

- Playing longer than :

1) they should
2) they could


- complicate things

that applies to: arrangements, gear, stage organisation (like placement of musicians), outfits ( like chosing incomfortable ones)


these are the firsts pitfals coming to mind.

malice

[Swafford]

I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that there are at least two of us who do this!!!

:grin:

Tim

I certainly won't disagree with the logic of this. I don't know if this sounds stupid, but I'm always concerned with how things look from the audience. With that in mind, for a visual, I like amps to be facing the audience, and, like your mother, I go down the line of vocal mic stands making sure they are neatly spaced, angled and at the proper height for the person using it. In a small bar or club, I'm pretty carefull to make sure my volume is in sync with the band, regradless of if the amp is pointing at my ass, though I have a little table my Allen or Deluxe Reverb sits on. Having a low wattage amp to use in a small club helps so I can make sure I don't blow the people out of thier chairs up front and still retain my 'tone' and I usually run two amps.

I know I said this at the last place and it seemed to cause a little reaction, but one thing that bothers me to no end is listening to people tune. My personal and professional feeling is use a stage tuner with a mute or hire a gutiar tech.

One more thing that should be considered, dressing with a point of view. I don't really go for the just finished mowing the lawn look. Nothing wrong with casual, even hippy sloppy, but how you look should say something besides you just finished washing the car, grabbed your gear and hit the club. When we had women in the band, they coordinated all the clothes. It was pretty striking.

[Droolbucket]

I certainly won't disagree with the logic of this. I don't know if this sounds stupid, but I'm always concerned with how things look from the audience. With that in mind, for a visual, I like amps to be facing the audience, and, like your mother, I go down the line of vocal mic stands making sure they are neatly spaced, angled and at the proper height for the person using it. In a small bar or club, I'm pretty carefull to make sure my volume is in sync with the band, regradless of if the amp is pointing at my ass, though I have a little table my Allen or Deluxe Reverb sits on. Having a low wattage amp to use in a small club helps so I can make sure I don't blow the people out of thier chairs up front and still retain my 'tone' and I usually run two amps.

I know I said this at the last place and it seemed to cause a little reaction, but one thing that bothers me to no end is listening to people tune. My personal and professional feeling is use a stage tuner with a mute or hire a gutiar tech.

One more thing that should be considered, dressing with a point of view. I don't really go for the just finished mowing the lawn look. Nothing wrong with casual, even hippy sloppy, but how you look should say something besides you just finished washing the car, grabbed your gear and hit the club. When we had women in the band, they coordinated all the clothes. It was pretty striking.

I'm not sure how many people would notice my amp missing (it's usually behind the PA stack), but I fully agree with the next two points. Being too cheap to buy a tuner pedal when I already have a few tuners, I wired up a little A/B pedal in an MXR-sized box. The wiring diagrams are all over the 'net. I can check my tuning during the piano intro, silently. Shoulda done it years ago.
I always try to dress decently for shows, but I've never made a huge effort. However, my brother runs sound for a show band, and they all bring stage clothes to change into after set-up. I gotta admit, it makes a huge difference visually. They have a few choreographed moves they do, mostly to poke fun at themselves as a wink to the audience, and they're smiling the whole night. To see them play isn't like going to a concert... it's like being invited to a great party, with the band acting as the host. They're all killer musicians, but they're GREAT entertainers. They're my favorite band to go see, when I'm not playing myself. (Plus, I'm the back-up sound guy when my brother has other obligations.)
On the extreme end, I worked with a drummer who wore white cotton gloves during setup and teardown, so as to not get any smudges on his hardware. I could see the sense in this, but after he set up his drums, he'd go out on the dance floor, and do the classic "director framing a shot with his hands" gesture. Then he'd go back on stage and move his drums a couple of inches to the left or right, and level out his cymbals. He was a pretty awful drummer, but dang, he LOOKED good! :lol:
Droolbucket

[dumbass]

Good, I really thought I was losing it...afterall I am getting older

:D

Uuuuh huh... we ALL are... but I won't tell nobody!:very happy:

[Bob Olhsson]

Playing too fucking LOUD...We just encountered this last Saturday night at a house party. This folk duo set up a little PA system in a living room and turned it up to just below feedback and then eq'd it.

The host managed to get them to turn it off because people were watching a dvd in the next room. The result was a room full of delighted, engagued listeners. After the DVD was done, they turned it back on and the result was bad intonation and a room full of people talking to each other.

What was amazing is that they completely didn't get that their PA was working against them.

[Swafford]

For performers who were schooled in bars and clubs, that's a hard threshold to cross for some reason. It's hard to imagine just why anyone would think they need a PA for a house gig if they're doing folk music. When we were touring as a string band, our M.O. always included forgoing the PA if the place was small or not crowded, prefering to wade out into the club and engage people directly.

[dumbass]

For performers who were schooled in bars and clubs, that's a hard threshold to cross for some reason.

I think that part of this comes from wanting to be something more than they are... a "bigger than life" type of ego issue.

[Swafford]

Hmm, maybe in the sense some performers use the PA as a crutch to supply them with affirmation that they do sound ok, you know, propping the ol' ego due to low self esteem.

Then again, I know quite a few acoustic type performers who never learned to project thier voice or instrument and just fucking dry up when asked to play at a party or campfire or in the park. They just can't put it out there.

[rockdart]

OK - I'll admit; I'm a loud guitarist on stage. 120-125db most of the time. yeah, rediculous I know and yes i do have some hearing loss. I think I do it to be able to hear over the snare - no kidding. I do side wash most of the time though so it's not bleeding out into the audience (too much)


Good thread though - one thing to expand on though; a clean stage. Crap everywhere (rolls of duct tape, towels, empty beverage containers, etc) looks amateur. Don't have cords running amok. yuck.

We have banners on stands that we use to cover the backline so the stage is nice and clean. That may not be an option for everyone, but think about the presentation (as has already been mentioned).

And just to touch on the tuning thing - I always tune my guitars prior to playing and when i switch out, they're always out... here in Denver. I wonder if the Mile High psuedo-atmosphere here causes more changes in the way temperature will change a guitar's string tension.

Has anyone else experienced that or is it just Murphy following me around everywhere? And by everywhere... I mean everywhere. I have some real nightmare stories.

[burnsy]

I encounter a lot of bands that make mistakes a lot of what I come across is during kit shares they dont prepare for the worst which usually ends up in us having to blag some backline from somewhere for them to actually play. Another is constantly moaning about monitors after they have just whacked their guitar up and knocked the mics out of position. Oh and quiet vocalists in loud bands always manage to confuse me and annoy me.


But yeah most common is not arranging their kit in advance and thinking of the worst and tuning for to long and doing new songs that they havent practised.

[bbkong]

I never understood the problem with tuning so long and so much.

Back in the day when they first took the horses off the front of buggies, I used a pass through tuner that was on all the time. If I though I had a string slipping out, a well placed overtone and a glance at the floor was all it took. A minute or two in mute mode before the gig started and I was good to go.

Anymore, I tend to think most onstage tuning problems are caused by folks who don't know how to set up their ax so it can be tuned to begin with. Those guys are usually loud too.

[Bivouac]

I'm going to side with Rockdart on the tuning issue. I live in Colorado too, have my guitars professionally setup, and encounter tuning problems too.

Most people just don't understand that we change elevation up to 2000 feet between locations sometimes. Seriously, my show on Friday and my show on Monday were probably 70 miles apart and 1300 feet change in elevation--that's a lot of difference in pressure, temperature, and humidity (or the lack thereof).

I'm finally starting to figure out that I need to take my guitars out of their cases after load-in, tune 'em up, and leave them on stage to adjust for the two hours or whatever. I definitely tune again right before playing too--absolutely necessary.

[pounce]

I'm going to side with Rockdart on the tuning issue. I live in Colorado too, have my guitars professionally setup, and encounter tuning problems too.

Most people just understand that we change elevation up to 2000 feet between locations sometimes. Seriously, my show on Friday and my show on Monday were probably 70 miles apart and 1300 feet change in elevation--that's a lot of difference in pressure, temperature, and humidity (or the lack thereof).

I'm finally starting to figure out that I need to take my guitars out of their cases after load-in, tune 'em up, and leave them on stage to adjust for the two hours or whatever. I definitely tune again right before playing too--absolutely necessary.

that sounds like the perfect plan

[pounce]

todays event is a dance event, our space does a lot of non band type events. theatre, dance, corporate, etc. the whole gamut.

today, i am in what i think of as "babysitting" mode. the producers of the event are as nice as can be, we all get along swimingly. they like coming here and we like having them. we work well together. they also ask for things nicely, so i'm truly happy to get them everything they need - many times before they've asked for it ala radar o'reilley.

however, many of the dancers coming to participate in the event bring bad habits with them. getting rosin all over the place, bringing drinks on the marley, messing with the soft goods, parking in really bad places in the loading dock, etc. so lots of my time today is being the "bad guy" and kind of policing that stuff. in the overview, given the amount of folks in for this event today (and at the other two shows going on in other parts of the facility), i don't have to say "no" too many times to too many people. but it happens. it's part of the delicate balance between incoming talent and us as the folks who have to keep the show running, keep things safe, and have a better overview of things than our guests.

i suppose this balance is also what brings the idea of differences between staff and talent. i suppose it's only friction if it's handled rudely. i certainly try to be polite, but with all due respect, at my live venue what i say goes. the rules are the rules, and i just expect the same rules to apply to everyone. really.

i dont' think it's a bad thing, and there aren't many rules, and they all make sense. they are not all written down, perhaps it would help if they were. not sure if it would make a difference. most of it is just common sense applied uniformly.

the worst thing i run into isn't folks who don't know this already. some are agreeable to these ideas, especially since it all makes perfect sense and is obviously for the good of the show and the safety of all involved. the worst thing is folks who decide they are somehow entitled to bypass the rules. i hate that shit. and i don't live by that philosophy. parking in the middle of the loading dock isn't cool, or breaking any of the other rules. act like a dick about it when we are telling you the rules and you'll see my attiutude change real quick. i don't have any time or patience for folks who want to argue with me over why they should be above the rules.

i still think most of the confusion can be avoided by getting folks informed at the time of booking the event. getting everyone on the same page from the getgo makes the actual production day go much better. nonetheless, we suffer from "let no good deed go unpunished". let one person park in the dock once for some reason and in the future there is no going back. (just using parking in the loading dock as an example, there are lots of other areas where this comes in to play, but dock parking is a pet peeve of mine at this venue). i suppose that's why consistent application of the rules is important, once you start bending them than you cloud everything up and can't really take back something you've given up.

this doesn't apply strictly to bands, this is the larger view of the relationship between venues (with their rules and staff) with guests for shows. i think it's a delicate relationship. shows that are organized love us at my venue, but disorganized shows tend to put me in babysitting mode and i dont' prefer to have to be the bad guy telling folks that they can't do stuff all day. it isn't fun for me either. i think it's more largely the repsonsibility of the venue to make their rules clear, and to enforce them. otoh, smart clients booking spaces like this often know the right things to ask to also help avoid confusion. if you've been to enough venues you'll get the gist of what kind of rules come in to play. this is more true for theatres and larger venues and less true for bars in my experience.

just kind of vibing on this thought a bit. now i have to quit typing to go keep an eye on the stage.

[jigsawlogic]

That used to work, "back in the day", when guitarists/bassists knew which letter of the alphabet corresponded to a given string. Now, with the hoofstomps of the liberated horses, and the angry cries of the buggy drivers, they are too terrified to recall from memory such exoticisms.

A good live show=a good band playing good songs. Even if the live sound ain't all that. Competence has the magical power of being able to arrive to an audience perhaps scathed and bloodied, but recognizable as what it is. A band that can blend itself easily, through experience, is probably a band that can then be amplified to an audience with a minimum of pain to the AE.

Funny thing is, the recording studio used to be like that too. Imagine 1 mic...the band would have to be placed at varying distances from it for balance, each member painfully aware of their dynamics. And, that experience would probably make them a better live band too.

As far as tuning problems go, I agree that they're too loud. But that's just because they're out of tune, and shouldn't even be heard in the first place. Dumb fucks.

Rant over! I now return the controls to....

[ggunn]

Funny thing is, the recording studio used to be like that too. Imagine 1 mic...the band would have to be placed at varying distances from it for balance, each member painfully aware of their dynamics. And, that experience would probably make them a better live band too.


Word that. Listen to those old Spike Jones recordings, with the absolutely stellar musicians he had with him plus the sound effects table using pistol shots, breaking glass, etc. as percussion instruments. And then realize that it was all recorded in one take through a single mic.

[Ambo]

Great to read other people's experiences and input on this topic.
I would only add and stress the importance of knowing before hand who your audience is and what the venue is like in feel...then pitch your performance accordingly...this could be part of a mid term preparation when putting the programme together...
If you have the chance to see the place and get some feed back on what kind of audience attends, some mistakes can be avoided...:Wink:
A rehearsal at the venue is the ideal, though I understand it is not always possible.
amitiés
Annemarie

[pounce]

Great to read other people's experiences and input on this topic.
I would only add and stress the importance of knowing before hand who your audience is and what the venue is like in feel...then pitch your performance accordingly...this could be part of a mid term preparation when putting the programme together...
If you have the chance to see the place and get some feed back on what kind of audience attends, some mistakes can be avoided...:Wink:
A rehearsal at the venue is the ideal, though I understand it is not always possible.
amitiés
Annemarie

seems like a great idea. scouting out the venue in advance could sure make things easier. knowing the load in, staff, crowd, vibe, etc. gets you all sorts of info to help you succeed if you use it to your advantage!

[Pancho Ballard]

Either I've not read this properly or you've missed something. Maybe it's just in England, or maybe even just Bolton but one of the biggest mistakes our local bands make is assuming they can't play until they've all downed five pints of Guiness.

My favourite local band, The Kiss Off (http://www.myspace.com/thebloodykissoff) are great when sober; tight (well, almost) and full of energy but when drunk, which is more often than not these days, they're just sloppy and think it's great fun to be out of tune, snap strings and throw your bass all over the place. t might be fun for them but it's not for the audience...

[pounce]

Either I've not read this properly or you've missed something. Maybe it's just in England, or maybe even just Bolton but one of the biggest mistakes our local bands make is assuming they can't play until they've all downed five pints of Guiness.

My favourite local band, The Kiss Off (http://www.myspace.com/thebloodykissoff) are great when sober; tight (well, almost) and full of energy but when drunk, which is more often than not these days, they're just sloppy and think it's great fun to be out of tune, snap strings and throw your bass all over the place. t might be fun for them but it's not for the audience...

yeah, drunk bands aren't fun to watch. i don't know why they would think any different. folks who can play alright otherwise play pretty loosely, to put it politely, when drunk or high or whatever. seems like a bad plan.

i recommend having the party after the gig, and then go wild. i'm not being a prude here, a drink or two before a gig is still ok if you can handle it. being sloppy at the gig works to your own detriment.

[chameleogaz]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fact that the band members should be aware of their surroundings, and what has to happen for a show to take place.

I still remember one time when a band set up a guitar amp DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE BASS DRUM. I had to kindly ask the guitarist if he thought it would be a good idea to mic the bass drum, and if his band wanted it mic'ed, he'd have to allow some room for me to position a microphone in between the guitar cab and the bass drum.

Another thing for the drummers... please leave some room between the high hat/racktom/snare for us sound guys to mic the snare!

Thanks

-Jeff

[vanityaffair]

it was hit on a couple times so far, but i think it needs to be stated again. ENTERTAIN THE FUCKING AUDIENCE!!!! no, you don't have to tell, stupid jokes, and no, you don't have to blend every song into the next one, but give the kids who paid good money to come to the show something to see and/or hear MOST of the time. i had to play after a terrible band, the kids were young, not all that talented, and worst of all, unrehearsed. they had maybe 3 band practices, said "hey let's play a show" and went for it. kudos to have the balls to do it, but you can't have balls without the skill to use them properly. they spent half of their time (literally, i counted just to make sure i wasn't crazy) onstage BETWEEN songs, that included 1) tuning 2) talking about the song they played beforehand 3) talking about the song they were about to play 4) realizing that guitar player B is not tuning to what guitar A and bass are tuned to, whoops. that kinda crap bugs me.

[Starfucker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9admQrK9Bzs

[Immanuel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9admQrK9Bzs

"We are gonna get the biggest record deal of the history - because .. we are smart!

...

Ok, I need a fucking drink, I am not being payed!"


"The next song is called Love, and it is about Love. Hey! Quit!! Hey, I'll have the bounsers beat you up, if you don't stop stepping on those mices, they don't like that!" (½ a minute later, he is the one getting kicked out by the bounser)

[lambro]

problems

1) sucking

2) playing too loud

3) bass loading

[mousdrvr]

Competence has the magical power of being able to arrive to an audience perhaps scathed and bloodied, but recognizable as what it is. .

Damn! :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

Welcome to The Womb! Bro


-mous

[ggunn]

problems

1) sucking

2) playing too loud

3) bass loading

What is "bass loading"?

[Tim Armstrong]

What is "bass loading"?

It's either what I have to do at the end of the gig when I put my gear in my old pickup truck or it's putting M-80s in fish...

Cheers, Tim

[decobred]

I certainly won't disagree with the logic of this. I don't know if this sounds stupid, but I'm always concerned with how things look from the audience. With that in mind, for a visual, I like amps to be facing the audience, and, like your mother, I go down the line of vocal mic stands making sure they are neatly spaced, angled and at the proper height for the person using it. In a small bar or club, I'm pretty carefull to make sure my volume is in sync with the band, regradless of if the amp is pointing at my ass, though I have a little table my Allen or Deluxe Reverb sits on. Having a low wattage amp to use in a small club helps so I can make sure I don't blow the people out of thier chairs up front and still retain my 'tone' and I usually run two amps.

I know I said this at the last place and it seemed to cause a little reaction, but one thing that bothers me to no end is listening to people tune. My personal and professional feeling is use a stage tuner with a mute or hire a gutiar tech.

One more thing that should be considered, dressing with a point of view. I don't really go for the just finished mowing the lawn look. Nothing wrong with casual, even hippy sloppy, but how you look should say something besides you just finished washing the car, grabbed your gear and hit the club. When we had women in the band, they coordinated all the clothes. It was pretty striking.


Excellent post!

[Randall]

The biggest mistake? LOL There are many.. The funniest one I ever saw was a band called "the Blow Monkeys" :grin: from jolly old England who were out on tour as the support act for Robert Palmer back in the 80's or early 90's, it escapes me now. In their rider they had written that they required a "home cooked meal" I was working with a group of guys with a small production company that subbed under a larger company that subbed under Bill Graham, a lot of subbing eh? anyhow, where were we?.. ahh yes, the home cooked meal... First let me say that Robert Palmer was a suave dude and smart too, he knew that coming to Santa Cruz and the bay area to modify his standard rider to include a big seafood buffet (smart guy) so back to the original incident, Our fearless leader had never been confronted with "home cooked meal" on a rider before and he hired his Mother for the gig :D and she went all out man, she had gotten hold of a cassette of these guy and liked their almost smooth R&B sound and decided to prepare them a large taste of Americana since they were from England and all, this included several casseroles and other dishes, made plenty for the crew as well :grin: while we were eating at one point these guys lead singer started complaining about the food which led to all of them talking shit, which means for English dudes sounded like a bunch of yip-yapping little lap dogs :grin:
Their singer, pulled a punk rock move and threw a plate on the floor and that brought tears to mom's eyes, well the next thing you know the singer is going on stage that evening with a big mouse and big black eye :D We laughed about that one for years and still have a good laugh about it when any of us get together to this day.
The moral of the story? Don't be assholes to your production crew (especially if they are home boys).. They have thousands of ways to make your life miserable. and won't help you score consumables or set you up with local girls :D (not that I think these guys cared about girls)

[tomc]

This was a new one to me. Diva has her first CD release party. She has her set list on her iPhone, sharpies and paper are so last century. Her friends who aren't in attendance are texting her their congratulations. First time it happens it makes her "you've received a text" sound, which the mics pick up. OK, she puts it on silent. She, of course, has to text back right then and there -- "multitasking" she calls it. Each subsequent text takes over the screen and she has to flip back to her "Setlist App" to know what to play next.

[weedywet]

The biggest mistake? LOL There are many.. The funniest one I ever saw was a band called "the Blow Monkeys" :grin: from jolly old England who were out on tour as the support act for Robert Palmer back in the 80's or early 90's, it escapes me now. In their rider they had written that they required a "home cooked meal" I was working with a group of guys with a small production company that subbed under a larger company that subbed under Bill Graham, a lot of subbing eh? anyhow, where were we?.. ahh yes, the home cooked meal... First let me say that Robert Palmer was a suave dude and smart too, he knew that coming to Santa Cruz and the bay area to modify his standard rider to include a big seafood buffet (smart guy) so back to the original incident, Our fearless leader had never been confronted with "home cooked meal" on a rider before and he hired his Mother for the gig :D and she went all out man, she had gotten hold of a cassette of these guy and liked their almost smooth R&B sound and decided to prepare them a large taste of Americana since they were from England and all, this included several casseroles and other dishes, made plenty for the crew as well :grin: while we were eating at one point these guys lead singer started complaining about the food which led to all of them talking shit, which means for English dudes sounded like a bunch of yip-yapping little lap dogs :grin:
Their singer, pulled a punk rock move and threw a plate on the floor and that brought tears to mom's eyes, well the next thing you know the singer is going on stage that evening with a big mouse and big black eye :D We laughed about that one for years and still have a good laugh about it when any of us get together to this day.
The moral of the story? Don't be assholes to your production crew (especially if they are home boys).. They have thousands of ways to make your life miserable. and won't help you score consumables or set you up with local girls :D (not that I think these guys cared about girls)


wow.
The Blow Monkeys must be morons, otherwise they would have left there owning the production company.
And with a large apology bonus from the promoter and venue.

or are you saying violence is a reasonable (or legal) response to rudeness?

[John Eppstein]

Really, the best thing I ever did as a guitarist was to put my amp on the side of the stage and shoot it across at me, instead of out toward the audience. I can hear my tone better, my slide playing is more accurate, and I can hear my vocal monitor a lot better. If my amp is being miked, and in most cases it is, it's now a stage monitor. It doesn't have to cover anything but the stage. I'm using a 40-watt combo amp with a single 12" speaker, and I really don't need that much. I don't think I've ever played it above 3. I don't think I'm gonna be dragging out my 100-watt Hiwatt half stack any time soon.
Droolbucket

This is a technique that I learned back in the late '70s from Blue Oyster Cult. They'd have a huge wall of amps behind the band and a couple were actually live for the guys playing rhythm guitar, but Don Roeser's amp was always set up at the side of the stage by the sidefill stack on his side. He could hear a lot better, the other musicians could hear him better, je could get his feedback without running to the back of the stage and George had a lot better control of him in the house. Don was using a 100 Watt Boogie MKII and a single 4x12 - but they were playing coliseums.......

Most of BOC's backline was mostly to give the crew something to hide behind......

Cheap Trick's too.....

Ever since I've been a great proponent of this setup to guitar players I've worked with. A couple of them even listened to me........

[John Eppstein]

" I have to play loud or I can't hear my amp!"

'That's because your ass has no ears."

'What?"

'It's aimed at your ass."

That's why Leo Fender invented TILTBACK LEGS......

[axeman69]

All execllent tips and replies. I agree with just about everything, especially the bands' playing too loud.

But, nobody is putting any responsibility on the venue. Many times a venue will book a metal band, in a room in a residental area with sound ordinances. Then bitch about it to the band. If you're a club owner, and you want to offer live music, I applaud you. But, you have to know your rooms limitations. Also, put someone in charge that understands the business. There is a club, in which I regularly work as the live sound provider/engineer. If the owner of the club doesn't know the band, they use me. PERIOD!!.

In the band's contract, it specifies that I run the show, and have the ability to shut it down if I feel it is in the best interest of the club. PERIOD! ! !

Now, this is a 200 seat venue, connected to a resturaunt. I meet the bands at the door as they're coming in. I provide the band a copy of the rules, which are also in the contract, that basically say, if I say turn it down, turn it down. If I say stop saying FUCK! ! at the top of your lungs. Stop it. Etc, etc, etc... I've had to almost cancel a number of shows, because the buthead guitar player brings in a full Boogie Tripple rec stack. Then, he can't get his "tone" if he's not playing 125db. Bullshit. I basically offer to provide a very nice single 12" all tube amplifer for him to use free of charge. If he wants to perform there that night, he'll take me up on it.

We've found, that when you're up front with the bands and let them know what's expected of them right off the bat, they will respond. If they don't, they don't get paid, and they're not invited back. Plus, I work in a fairly small city, so word travels fast between the clubs that offer live entertainment which bands cause trouble.

Just my obversations over the past 30 years.

[Damage, Inc.]

This is a technique that I learned back in the late '70s from Blue Oyster Cult. They'd have a huge wall of amps behind the band and a couple were actually live for the guys playing rhythm guitar, but Don Roeser's amp was always set up at the side of the stage by the sidefill stack on his side. He could hear a lot better, the other musicians could hear him better, je could get his feedback without running to the back of the stage and George had a lot better control of him in the house. Don was using a 100 Watt Boogie MKII and a single 4x12 - but they were playing coliseums.......

Most of BOC's backline was mostly to give the crew something to hide behind......

Cheap Trick's too.....

Ever since I've been a great proponent of this setup to guitar players I've worked with. A couple of them even listened to me........

Yep, putting your amp sidestage is a great idea, if the stage shape accommodates it. As an alternate solution, I just built myself a 2x12 guitar wedge for the front of the stage. I can set my 4x12 cab to whatever volume works, then just add volume to the wedge to fill it out if I can't hear. Our drummer hits pretty hard, too, so it comes in handy.

PS--good post pounce, I missed it first time around. It should be required reading for any band.

[bunnerabb]

wow.
The Blow Monkeys must be morons, otherwise they would have left there owning the production company.
And with a large apology bonus from the promoter and venue.

or are you saying violence is a reasonable (or legal) response to rudeness?

It is an often touted fact of life on a planet full of people who have testicles that, all things being equal and regardless of consequences, dissing somebody's mom might get your teeth kicked out of the crack of your ass.

It is what it is.

This is why your mom taught you manners.

[John Eppstein]

All execllent tips and replies. I agree with just about everything, especially the bands' playing too loud.

But, nobody is putting any responsibility on the venue. Many times a venue will book a metal band, in a room in a residental area with sound ordinances. Then bitch about it to the band. If you're a club owner, and you want to offer live music, I applaud you. But, you have to know your rooms limitations. Also, put someone in charge that understands the business. There is a club, in which I regularly work as the live sound provider/engineer. If the owner of the club doesn't know the band, they use me. PERIOD!!.

In the band's contract, it specifies that I run the show, and have the ability to shut it down if I feel it is in the best interest of the club. PERIOD! ! !

Now, this is a 200 seat venue, connected to a resturaunt. I meet the bands at the door as they're coming in. I provide the band a copy of the rules, which are also in the contract, that basically say, if I say turn it down, turn it down. If I say stop saying FUCK! ! at the top of your lungs. Stop it. Etc, etc, etc... I've had to almost cancel a number of shows, because the buthead guitar player brings in a full Boogie Tripple rec stack. Then, he can't get his "tone" if he's not playing 125db. Bullshit. I basically offer to provide a very nice single 12" all tube amplifier for him to use free of charge. If he wants to perform there that night, he'll take me up on it.

We've found, that when you're up front with the bands and let them know what's expected of them right off the bat, they will respond. If they don't, they don't get paid, and they're not invited back. Plus, I work in a fairly small city, so word travels fast between the clubs that offer live entertainment which bands cause trouble.

Just my obversations over the past 30 years.

Well, not to defend being too loud, but given your attitude I work for several bands who would never, ever play your club.

My own band might, depending on your attitude. That PERIOD! bothers me.

As far as "butthead guitar players with a full Boogie Triple Rec" are concerned, If your booking agent can't figure out what kind of band is going to be too loud for your club you need a new booking agent. You don't book Metallica/Slayer/Testament clones and expect them to be quiet. These kinds of problems should be sorted out before the gig ever happens.

I recently did a gig at a small (approximately 150 seat) restaurant/nightclub, pinch-hitting because my friend who is the regular soundman was playing in the headline band. Everybody told me the opener was going to be a problem with volume - including the band themselves. I did my usual thing with full micing everything (just in case) and set the amps up firing cross stage to keep them out of the vocal mics and not blast the audience. Yeah, they were loud - I didn't use any of the drum mics except kick as the drummer was extremely strong. The guitar amps were loud, but because of the cross stage setup I actually used a tiny bit in the PA to balance things out. Had no problem with the vocals, nobody from the club asked me to turn it down, and everybody was saying it was the best this band has ever sounded. I didn't have to get in the guitarist's face due to the stage setup. Everybody was happy. You have to know your art.

[John Eppstein]

wow.
The Blow Monkeys must be morons, otherwise they would have left there owning the production company.
And with a large apology bonus from the promoter and venue.

or are you saying violence is a reasonable (or legal) response to rudeness?

I'd say the story makes it pretty clear that they were, in fact, morons......

[tomc]

hmm, there's the "take your upright bass and lay it on its side so it has to be stepped over to get to the snake or in and out of the drumkit while you dick around with other shit and act like it's inconvenient for you to put it somewhere else while you dick around with other shit" trick that I hadn't encountered until last night. :Confused:

[frnjplayer]

hmm, there's the "take your upright bass and lay it on its side so it has to be stepped over to get to the snake or in and out of the drumkit while you dick around with other shit and act like it's inconvenient for you to put it somewhere else while you dick around with other shit" trick that I hadn't encountered until last night. :Confused:

We can add that to the "technical terms" list.

Relic'ing: (verb) Leaving your precious instrument in a place where it is guaranteed to accidentally get the shit kicked out of it.
"Dude, the sound guy just relic'd your bass. Hope you can still play tonight."

[guitar junkie]

First off I have been a lurker for a while now but just now got around to making an account...

My wife and I have a small acoustic duo that we play in and our main venues are smaller coffee house type things and a few weddings and odds and end festivals.

Keeping our sound as pure and clear as possible by using decent gear is one of the first things we do, and also really focusing on taming feedback at any given time, either playing with mic's or DI instruments.

Multiple tunings means multiple guitars, rather than tuning between songs and having an awkward moment or two on stage. At the most I like to keep it at Drop D tuning on my guitar.

Decent merch displays and well thought out setups for said tables makes a big difference in how much you'll sell but also will reflect on how your crowd and venue see you as an artist.

It's much better to be early for a setup than late for one and having to rush it all through... I don't know how many bands I have seen show up 10 mins before they need to have a big PA and 10 stringed instruments all in place while not having a chance to warm up their vocals or even see to it that their sound is tweaked well.

When we're the headliner I like to be at least 2 hours early so we can set up our PA and let our instruments sit on stands for a while, run through a song and then maybe have a bite to eat and a drink, mingle with the crowd there and then go out and perform a much less stressed sounding and feeling set. Not that we always get the chance to do this but it is a nice feeling just the same.

A lot of our coffee house gigs are seated shows so we like to take about 10 mins in the middle to let folks go get refills and get up and walk around. We also seem to sell the bulk of our merch around this time as well.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Playing too fucking LOUD

:grin:

sorry, I couldn't resist

And this isn't just for garage bands at a bar gig, or club. I've seen
Journey 3 times in the last 3 or 4 years. Guitar to loud every time. So much that it overpowered the entire mix of each show.