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View Full Version : U2 manager Paul McGuinness at Midem


Bob Olhsson
January 30th, 2008, 05:38 PM
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i062b16e707aa99915e4020e2fef62399

A Billboard staff report, Cannes

The full script of the speech everyone is talking about in Cannes, as made by U2 manager Paul McGuinness at Midem.

McGuinness: "Good afternoon and thank you for giving me this opportunity. I don't make many speeches and this is an important and imposing occasion for me. What I'm trying do here today is identify a course of action that will benefit all: artists, labels, writers and publishers.

I have been managing the best-known of my clients, U2, for exactly 30 years. Sure we've made mistakes along the way but the lineup hasn't changed in 31 years. They are as ambitious and hardworking as ever, and each time they make a record and tour, it's better than the last time. They are doing their best work now. During that time the music business has been through many changes.

At the beginning U2's live appearances were loss-making and tour support from our record label was essential for us to tour and that paid off for the label as U2's records went to No.1 in nearly every international territory starting in the mid '80s and I'm happy to say that continues to the present day. They have sold about 150 million records to date and the last album went to No.1 in 27 territories.

U2 own all their masters but these are licensed long-term to Universal, with whom we enjoy an excellent relationship. With a couple of minor exceptions they also own all their copyrights, which are also licensed to Universal. U2 always understood that it would be pathetic to be good at the music and bad at the business, and have always been prepared to invest in their own future. We were never interested in joining that long, humiliating list of miserable artists who made lousy deals, got exploited and ended up broke and with no control over how their life's work was used, and no say in how their names and likenesses were bought and sold.

What U2 and I also understood instinctively from the start was that they had 2 parallel careers first as recording and songwriting artists, and second as live performers. They've been phenomenally successful at both. The Vertigo Tour in 2005/2006 grossed $355m and played to 4.6m people in 26 countries.

But I'm not here to brag. I'm here to ask some serious questions and to point the finger at the forces at work that are destroying the recorded music industry.

People all over the world are going to more gigs than ever. The experience for the audience is better than ever. This is proved by the upward trend in ticket prices, generally un-resisted. The live business is, for the most part, healthy and profitable. Bands can gig without subsidy. Live Nation, previously a concert and venue company is moving into position with merchandising, ticketing, online, music distribution as one of the powerful new centres of the music industry.

So what has gone wrong with the recorded music business?

More people are listening to music than ever before through many more media than ever before. Part of the problem is that the record companies, through lack of foresight and poor planning, allowed an entire collection of digital industries to arise that enabled the consumer to steal with impunity the very recorded music that had previously been paid for. I think that's been a cultural problem for the record industry -- it has generally been inclined to rely for staff on poorly paid enthusiasts rather than developing the kind of enterprise culture of Silicon Valley where nearly every employee is a shareholder.

There are other reasons for the record business's slow response to digital. The SDMI (Secure Digital Music Initiative) of the '90s pan-industry, was a grand but ill-fated plan to try and agree rules between the content and technology industries. It went nowhere. SDMI, and similar attempts at cooperation by record companies, have partly been thwarted by competition rules. The US government has sometimes been overzealous in protecting the public from cartel-like behaviour.

I love the record business, and though I may be critical of the ways in which the digital space has been faced by the industry I am also genuinely sympathetic and moved by the human fall-out, as the companies react to falling revenues by cutting staff and tightening belts. Many old friends and colleagues have been affected by this. They have families and it is terrible that a direct effect of piracy and thievery has been the destruction of so many careers.

Nonetheless there is one effective thing the majors could do together. I quote from Josh Tyrangiel in Time Magazine: - "The smartest thing would be for the majors to collaborate on the creation of the ultimate digital-distribution hub, a place where every band can sell its wares at the price point of its choosing". Apple's iTunes, despite its current dominance, is vulnerable. Consumers dislike its incompatibility with other music services, and the labels are rebelling against its insistence on controlling prices. Universal the largest label in the world has declined to sign a long term deal with iTunes. "There's a real urgency for the labels to get together and figure this out," says Rick Rubin of Columbia Records.

There is technology now, that the worldwide industry could adopt, which enables content owners to track every legitimate digital download transaction, wholesale and retail.

This system is already in use here in Cannes by the MIDEM organisation and is called SIMRAN. Throughout this conference you will see contact details and information. I recommend you look at it. I should disclose that I'm one of their investors.

Meanwhile in the revolution that has hit music distribution, quality seems to have been forgotten. Remarkably, these new digital forms of distribution deliver a far poorer standard of sound than previous formats. There are signs of a consumer backlash and an online audiophile P2P movement called "lossless" with expanded and better spectrum that is starting to make itself heard. This seems to be a missed opportunity for the record industry -- shouldn't we be catering to people who want to hear music through big speakers rather than ear buds?

Today, there is a frenetic search for new business models that will return the record business to growth. The record companies are exploring many new such models -- some of them may work, some of them may not.

Sadly, the recent innovative Radiohead release of a download priced on the "honesty box" principle seems to have backfired to some extent. It seems that the majority of downloads were through illegal P2P download services like BitTorrent and LimeWire, even though the album was available for nothing through the official band site. Notwithstanding the promotional noise, even Radiohead's honesty box principle showed that if not constrained, the customer will steal music.

There is some excitement about advertising-funded deals. But the record companies must gain our trust to share fairly the revenues they will gain from advertising. Historically they have not been good at transparency. Let's never forget the great CD scam of the '80s when the majors tried to halve the royalties of records released on CD claiming that they needed this extra margin to develop the new technology even as they were entering the great boom years that the CD delivered. It's ironic that, at a time when the majors are asking the artists to trust them to share advertising revenue they are also pushing the dreadful "360 model."

As Allen Grubman, the well-known New York attorney said to me recently... "God forbid that one of these acts in a 360 deal has success. The next thing that will happen is the manager gets fired and the lawyer gets sued for malpractice."

Maybe it would help if they were to offer to cancel those deals when they repair their main revenue model and the industry recovers, as I believe it will.

But that's an issue for the future, when we're out of the crisis. Today, there's a bigger issue and it's about the whole relationship between the music and the technology business. Network operators, in particular, have for too long had a free ride on music -- on our clients' content. It's time for a new approach -- time for ISPs to start taking responsibility for the content they've profited from for years. And it's time for some visionary new thinking about how the music and technology sectors can work as partners instead of adversaries, leading to a revival of recorded music instead of its destruction.

It's interesting to look at the character of the individuals who built the industries that resulted from the arrival of the microprocessor. Most of them came out of the so-called counterculture on the west coast of America. Their values were hippy values. They thought the old computer industry as represented by IBM was neanderthal. They laughed at Bell Telephone and AT&T. They thought the TV networks were archaic. Most of them are music lovers. There are plenty of private equity fund managers who are "Deadheads."

They were brilliantly innovative in finance and technology and though they would pay lip service to "Content is King" what many of them instinctively realized was that in the digital age there were no mechanisms to police the traffic over the internet in that content, and that legislation would take many years to catch up with what was now possible online.

And embedded deep down in the brilliance of those entrepreneurial, hippy values seems to be a disregard for the true value of music.

This goes back some decades. Does anyone remember Abbie Hoffman? He was one of the "Chicago 7," the 'Yippies" of the Youth International Party who tried to disrupt the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago and got beaten up and put on trial by Mayor Daley's police. He put out a book with the title "Steal this Book". I think he has a lot to answer for.

I've met a lot of today's heroes of Silicon Valley. Most of them don't really think of themselves as makers of burglary kits. They say: "you can use this stuff to email your friends and store and share your photos". But we all know that there's more to it than that, don't we? Kids don't pay $25 a month for broadband just to share their photos, do their homework and email their pals.

These tech guys think of themselves as political liberals and socially aware. They search constantly for the next "killer app." They conveniently forget that the real "killer app" that many of their businesses are founded on is our clients' recorded music.

I call on them today to start doing two things: first, taking responsibility for protecting the music they are distributing; and second, by commercial agreements, sharing their enormous revenues with the content makers and owners.

I want those technology entrepreneurs to share their ingenuity and skill as well. Our interests are, after all, steadily merging as lines get more and more blurred between the distributors of content, the makers of hardware and the creators of content. Steve Jobs is now in effective control of the Walt Disney Studio and ABC Television so his point of view may be changing now that he owns content as well as selling those beautiful machines that have changed our world. Personally I expect that Apple will before too long reveal a wireless iPod that connects to an iTunes "all of the music, wherever you are" subscription service. I would like it to succeed, if the content is fairly paid for. "Access" is what people will be paying for in the future, not the "ownership" of digital copies of pieces of music.

I have met Steve Jobs and even done a deal with him face to face in his kitchen in Palo Alto in 2004. No one there but Steve, Bono, Jimmy Iovine and me, and Lucian Grainge was on the phone. We made the deal for the U2 iPod and wrote it down in the back of my diary. We approved the use of the music in TV commercials for iTunes and the iPod and in return got a royalty on the hardware. Those were the days when iTunes was being talked about as penicillin for the recorded music industry.

I wish he would bring his remarkable set of skills to bear on the problems of recorded music. He's a technologist, a financial genius, a marketer and a music lover. He probably doesn't realize it but the collapse of the old financial model for recorded music will also mean the end of the songwriter. We've been used to bands who wrote their own material since the Beatles, but the mechanical royalties that sustain songwriters are drying up. Labels and artists, songwriters and publishers, producers and musicians, everyone's a victim.

For ISPs in general, the days of prevaricating over their responsibilities for helping protect music must end. The ISP lobbyists who say they should not have to "police the internet" are living in the past -- relying on outdated excuses from an earlier technological age. The internet has moved on since then, and the pace of change today means a year in the internet age is equivalent to a decade in the non-internet world.

Remember the 1990s, when the internet was being called the Information Superhighway? At that time, when the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the EU Electronic Commerce Directive were drawn up, legislators were concerned to offer safe harbours restricting the responsibilities of ISPs who acted as a "mere conduit". This was a different era: only a few hundred thousand illegal files could be accessed from websites. There was no inkling
at that time of the enormous explosion of P2P piracy that was to follow. If legislators had foreseen that explosion, would they have ever offered immunity for so-called "mere conduits" and, in doing so, given ISPs a decade of excuses for refusing to protect our content?

And as it turned, the "Safe Harbour" concept was really a Thieves' Charter. The legal precedent that device-makers and pipe and network owners should not be held accountable for any criminal activity enabled by their devices and services has been enormously damaging to content owners and developing artists. If you were publishing a magazine that was advertising stolen cars, processing payments for them and arranging delivery of them you'd expect to get a visit from the police wouldn't you? What's the difference? With a laptop, a broadband account, an MP3 player and a smartphone you can now steal all the content, music, video and literary in the world without any money going to the content owners. On the other hand if you get caught stealing a laptop in the computer store or don't pay your broadband bill there are obvious consequences. You get nicked or you get your access cut off.

It is time for ISPs to be real partners. The safe harbours of the 1990s are no longer appropriate, and if ISPs do not cooperate voluntarily there will need to be legislation to require them to cooperate.

Why does all this matter so much? Because the truth is that whatever business model you are building, you cannot compete with billions of illegal files free on P2P networks. And the research does show that effective enforcement -- such as a series of warnings from the ISP to illegal file-sharers that would culminate in disconnection of your service -- can address the problem.

A simple "three strikes and you are out" enforcement process will see all serial illegal uploaders who resist the law face a stark choice: change or lose your ISP subscription.

Fortunately, there has recently been some tremendous momentum to get ISPs engaged -- notably in France, the UK, Sweden, Norway and Belgium. President Sarkozy's plan, the Olivennes initiative, by which ISPs will start disconnecting repeat infringers later this year, set a brilliant precedent which other governments should follow. In the U.K., the Gowers Report made it clear that legislation should be considered if voluntary talks with ISPs failed to produce a commitment to disconnect file-sharers. I'd like to see the U.K. government act promptly on this recommendation.

In Sweden, the Renfors Report commissioned by the Ministry of Justiceg ISP cooperation. And in the courts, the Sabam-Tiscali ruling spelt out, in language as plain as could be, that ISPs should take the steps required to remove copyright-infringing material from their networks. The European Union should now take up the mantle and legislate where voluntary intra-industry agreement is not forthcoming. This is the time to seize the day.

ISPs don't just have a moral reason to step up to the plate -- they have a commercial one too. IFPI estimates say illegal P2P distribution of music and films accounts for over half of all ISP traffic. Others put the figure as high as 80%. This is traffic that is not only destroying the market place for people who are trying to make a legitimate living out of music and films, it is hogging bandwidth that ISPs are increasingly going to need for other commerce, especially as a legitimate online market for movies develops.

I think the failure of ISPs to engage in the fight against piracy, to date, has been the single biggest failure in the digital music market. They are the gatekeepers with the technical means to make a far greater impact on mass copyright violation than the tens of thousands of lawsuits taken out against individual file-sharers by bodies like BPI, RIAA and IFPI. To me, prosecuting the customer is counter-intuitive, though I recognise that these prosecutions have an educational and propaganda effect, however small, in showing that stealing music is wrong.

ISPs could implement a policy of disconnection in very quick time. Filtering is also feasible. When last June the Belgian courts made a precedent-setting ruling obliging an ISP to remove illegal music from its network, they identified no fewer than 6 technologies which make it possible for this to be done. No more excuses please. ISPs can quickly enough to block pornography when that becomes a public concern.

When the volume of illegal movie and music P2P activity was slowing down their network for legitimate users recently in California, Comcast were able to isolate and close down BitTorrent temporarily without difficulty.

There are many other examples that prove the ability of ISPs to switch off selectively activity they have a problem with: Google excluded BMW from their search engine when BMW started to play games. This was a clear warning to others not to interfere. Another show of power was Google's acceptance of the Chinese Governments censorship conditions. The BBC has spent a fortune on their iPlayer project and the ISPs are now threatening to throttle this traffic if the BBC doesn't "share costs of iPlayer traffic." All this shows what the ISPs could do if they wanted. We must shame them into wanting to help us. Their snouts have been at our trough feeding free for too long.

Let's spare no effort to push the ISPs into taking responsibility. But that's only one part of the story. There's a huge commercial partnership opportunity there as well. For me, the business model of the future is one where music is bundled into an ISP or other subscription service and the revenues are shared between the distributor and the content owners.

I believe this is realistic; the last few years have shown clear proof of the power of ISPs and cable companies to bundle packages of content and get more money out of their subscribers. In the UK, most ISPs offer different tiers of services, with a higher monthly fee for heavy downloaders. Why are there "heavy" downloaders? Isn't that our money? News Corporation offers free broadband to light users if they take at least a basic Sky Television package for £16 [$31.78] a month.

Looking at the events in the last year, this revenue-sharing model seems to be taking hold in the music business.

Universal -- U2's label -- recently struck a deal with Microsoft that sees it receive a cut of the revenues generated by sales of the Zune MP3 player. It's unfortunate that the Zune hasn't attracted the sort of consumer support that the iPod did. We need more competition.

Under the agreement, Universal receives $1 for every Zune sold. When you consider Radio Shack sells Zune players for $150, you'll see that Universal has asked for less than 1% of revenue -- for a company that is supplying about a third of the U.S. market's chart music at the moment. This isn't really enough, but it's a start, I suppose, and follows from the U2/Apple deal, the principle that the hardware makers should share with the content owners whose assets are exploited by the buyers of their machines. The record companies should never again allow industries to arise that make billions off their content without looking for a piece of that business. Remember MTV?

Nokia has announced it will launch "Comes With Music," a service that effectively allows consumers to get unlimited free downloads of songs for 12 months after they buy certain premium Nokia phones. At the end of the 12 months consumers will be able to keep the songs they download. Nokia gets to supply premium content and Universal gets to boost competition in the digital marketplace, to make it more competitive and open new channels to customers. A proportion of the revenue generated by sales of the handsets will flow back to Universal. The question must be asked; will they distribute that revenue fairly? Do artists trust the labels? Will artists, songwriters and labels trust the telcos and handset companies?

These are obviously commercial deals driven by self-interest. But there is a moral aspect to this too. The partnership between music and technology needs to be fair and reasonable. ISPs, Telcos and tech companies have enjoyed a bonanza in the last few years off the back of recorded music content. It is time for them to share that with artists and content owners.

Some people do go further and favour a state-imposed blanket licence on music. Let me stress that I don't believe in that. A government cannot set the price of music well any more than a rock band can run a government. The market has to decide. The problem with the global licence proposed in France two years ago was that it would not have worked in practice. But it is in France recently that legislators have been most innovative and have shown most willingness to act to support recorded music rights. France leads the world on this.

So far I've focused mainly on the role of ISPs. But there are similar issues in mobile too. The mobile business accounts for half the world's digital music revenues and, crucially, is starting out from a much better position than the internet music market. You only have to look at a market such as Japan to see the amazing potential of mobile music for getting to the young demographic.

I believe that in mobile music we have the chance to avoid the problems that have bedevilled the recorded music industry's relationship with ISPs: and I'm not talking just of their tolerance of copyright theft. Other problems, like the lack of interoperability between services and devices; the lack of convenient payment mechanisms except via credit cards -- which of course are not available to all music users; the hacking and viruses that have undermined people's trust in online payment. All these problems can be avoided in the mobile sector, this is a task that should command the support and cooperation of labels, artists, publishers and writers. We're all in the same boat here.

That's a lesson for the mobile industry internationally. Don't go the way that many of the ISPs have gone. Mobile is still a relatively secure environment for legitimate content -- let's keep it that way.

So, to conclude -- who's got our money and what can we do?

I suggest we shift the focus of moral pressure away from the individual P2P file thief and on to the multi billion dollar industries that benefit from these countless tiny crimes -- The ISPs, the telcos, the device makers. Let's appeal to those fine minds at Stanford University and Silicon Valley, Apple, Google, Nokia, HP, China Mobile, Vodafone, Comcast, Intel, Ericsson, Facebook, iLike, Oracle, Microsoft, AOL, Yahoo, Tiscali etc, and the bankers, engineers, private equity funds, and venture capitalists who service them and feed off them to apply their genius to cooperating with us to save the recorded music industry, not only on the basis of reluctantly sharing advertising revenue but collecting revenue for the use and sale of our content. They have built multi billion dollar industries on the back of our content without paying for it.

It's probably too late for us to get paid for the past, though maybe that shouldn't be completely ruled out. The U.S. Department of Justice and the EU have scored some notable victories on behalf of the consumer, usually against Microsoft. They have a moral obligation to be true, trustworthy partners of the music sector. To respect and take responsibility for protecting music. To work for the revaluation, not the devaluation of music. To share revenues with the community fairly and responsibly, and to share the skills, ingenuity and entrepreneurship from which our business has a lot to learn.

And the message to government is this: ISP responsibility is not a luxury for possible contemplation in the future. It is a necessity for implementation TODAY -- by legislation if voluntary means fail.

There's more exciting music being made and more listened to than at any time in history. Cheap technology has made it easy to start a band and make music. This is a gathering of managers; our talented clients deserve better than the shoddy, careless and downright dishonest way they have been treated in the digital age."
(Paul McGuinness delivered the above speech January 28 at Midem, Cannes.)

MacGregor
January 30th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Nice writing, good find :Thumbsup:

The only thing I heavily disagree is the responsibility of the ISPs, that's bullshit. Besides the fact that it's not possible to control the transmitted content nobody would request US postal to open and control all packages.

Mac

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Bob Olhsson
January 30th, 2008, 06:12 PM
The U.S. Post Office very much acts as a cop when crimes are committed using the mail service.

dwoz
January 30th, 2008, 07:04 PM
If you look carefully at what he's saying, it is VERY close to what I have put up on the "time to scrap the royalty system" thread.

He's saying that we HAVE to bring to the front the concept that there is a responsibility in the distributors (the isps, the enabling entities), to pay attention to the licenses....

...much like I have stated that we need to have a "distributor's license", and artist-based "licensing authorities".

dwoz

MacGregor
January 30th, 2008, 08:09 PM
The U.S. Post Office very much acts as a cop when crimes are committed using the mail service.

That's what ISPs already do right now here in Europeland, they have to investigate IF a (probable) criminal action is reported.
Paul (and others here in Europe) see the responsibility to report(!) that crime by the ISPs, and that means the complete traffic has to be analyzed (aka US Post Office would have to open every single packet).
Besides the facts that this is technically VERY demanding, the higher costs we as ISP users have to carry and that it is against privacy laws in a lot of countries the usual suspects will just switch over to encrypted transfers.

Mac

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Bob Olhsson
January 30th, 2008, 08:11 PM
There's no getting around the fact that music and video are the ONLY reasons on Earth ANY consumer needs broadband!

It's long past time to cut through all the bullsh!t.

MacGregor
January 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM
There's no getting around the fact that music and video are the ONLY reasons on Earth ANY consumer needs broadband!

It's long past time to cut through all the bullsh!t.

That's a good point and I agree on this.
But we can't turn back time, we HAVE the internet, we HAVE formats that are easy to copy, and we HAVE people who use it in whatever fashionable criminal way.
What we CAN do is to think about ways to use what's there right now to OUR advantage.
I like dwoz' idea very much, the only thing that bothers me is that he sees the ISPs as responsible distributors which they aren't. With the same argumentation you could make General Electric responsible for that, because they provide the electrons used for internet traffic.

The up- and downloaders are the distributors, and for them I like the idea that a license goes all the way down to the end user, and each one in between agrees to a more or less transparent re-distributor contract.

Mac

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Spock
January 31st, 2008, 06:37 AM
There's no getting around the fact that music and video are the ONLY reasons on Earth ANY consumer needs broadband!

It's long past time to cut through all the bullsh!t.

Sorry Bob. I got broadband many years ago because of my job. It allowed me to use a VPN client and get the same access to work servers and resources at home.

Any more with the price of gas a lot of tech people will tele-work, and at a lot of places it is encouraged. Even if all you do is hit the corp. Outlook servers you need at least a low end broadband connection to make it work well.

I also have to agree with MacGregor on the ISP thing. My ISP just provides me with IP transport, they have nothing to do with what I upload or download and from where. I use someone else for web hosting, and if I put copyrighted material on their server, the will kill my account.

If someone says that my cable company needs to watch every packet that I send or receive, good luck. I tend to use ssh/sftp, all the data is encrypted. You can't tell what I'm doing. Period.

JMP2204
January 31st, 2008, 06:47 AM
There's no getting around the fact that music and video are the ONLY reasons on Earth ANY consumer needs broadband!

It's long past time to cut through all the bullsh!t.

Bob...

I respect you, and your thoughts on these things. Your knowledge of the industry is second to none...

Are you saying that broadband is only good for stealing music and video?

Bob Olhsson
January 31st, 2008, 06:56 AM
Except Spock you aren't anything remotely resembling a typical consumer. Yes some people like you and I need broadband for other purposes but certainly not most people. What I'm saying is that audio and video, stolen or not, is the only reason most ordinary folks would want broadband.

JMP2204
January 31st, 2008, 06:57 AM
The speech is fairly well thought out - You can tell he really thought about some things. But just as the so called "technorati" have misconceptions about the music industry, it is clear that the music industry has misconceptions and misunderstandings about the tech industry and it's history and motivations.

Blaming each other probably will not solve anything.

But I think we all agree that he got one thing right on the money - The music industry has to work together, and with the technology folks to develop the the best music delivery system available.

I truly believe it is not only do-able, but it is likely affordable.

Bob Olhsson
January 31st, 2008, 09:45 PM
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080130-riaa-chief-we-dont-see-a-need-for-mandatory-isp-filtering.html

nobby
February 1st, 2008, 04:04 AM
Great speech, but I think any attempt to shame ISPs and computer hardware companies into cooperating with the content providers could prove to be a bit of an uphill battle. Actually, it already has been for years.

The ISPs and Silicon Valley are for the most part beholden to Wall Street.

In trying to shame Wall Street you need to remember that not only is Wall Street shameless, it's also, heartless and ruthless, and would cut anyone's throat including its own for short term gain as we can see by the subprime loan debacle.

Still, more voices and speeches can help with a grass roots campaign, and it's not impossible that investors who've had their faith shaken by Enron and the subprime loan mess may be more receptive to a message of fiscal responsibility, i.e. let's not kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

One can only hope so.

Bob Olhsson
February 1st, 2008, 05:56 AM
Wall Street is indeed trying to insert the Silicon Valley crowd into every music transaction. It absolutely IS uphill but it's not impossible provided somebody starts championing the artists' and songwriters' rights.

Bashing how the big labels have treated artists has been a diversion and not a position in support of artists. Being somebody's other enemy does not make you somebody's friend.

weedywet
February 1st, 2008, 06:59 AM
Do you really want to start having to pay premium rates to ISPs for the privilege of emailing music files to your session, or rough mixes to your client?


I don't want the ISP police...
that's just not a GOOD answer to the problems.

radiationroom
February 1st, 2008, 08:29 AM
While we are on the subject of content filtering by ISPs, my bet is that so-called "net neutrality" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality) will be a thing of the past in ten years. All the major carriers are installing fiber, not so they can sell you broadband, but so they can sell you other services such as VoD, VoIP, and "digital POTS" among other offerings. These new services will require lots of bandwidth, and when somebody is running lots of torrents that bandwidth can be eaten up pretty quickly even with todaze' infrastructure. So my bet is that protocols such as torrents which can be disruptive to general net traffic is what will be banned from various networks, not specific content.

MacGregor
February 1st, 2008, 10:20 AM
So my bet is that protocols such as torrents which can be disruptive to general net traffic is what will be banned from various networks, not specific content.

Won't work. The torrent (or more general, P2P) traffic will be embedded in whatever protocol is still allowed the next day. Some background information: Tunneling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunneling_protocol)

Mac

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dnafe
February 1st, 2008, 03:17 PM
Please pardon my ignorance here but couldn't one argue Internet Providers are co-conspirators in music piracy and therefore copyright infringement.

I guess my reasoning is this...would any financial institution be allowed to (knowingly) be a party to money laundering?

Bob Olhsson
February 1st, 2008, 03:41 PM
They absolutely are co-conspirators which was why they needed to get a law passed granting them immunity from prosecution.

"Net neutrality" has been a scam from the beginning because it ignores the fact that the net is a parallel and not a serial system. It's a similar tactic to the anti-RIAA propaganda playing to everybody's hatred of the phone and cable companies.

MacGregor
February 1st, 2008, 04:34 PM
Please pardon my ignorance here but couldn't one argue Internet Providers are co-conspirators in music piracy and therefore copyright infringement.

I guess my reasoning is this...would any financial institution be allowed to (knowingly) be a party to money laundering?

Yep, with the same reasoning you could sue the cable industry for providing the cables the providers are using. And the metal industry for the wires they give to the cable industry.
They all provide their co-conspirators part.

What you all want to do is to shot the messenger for his message.
Didn't work out for Hiob, and won't work out for the MI.

Mac

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dnafe
February 1st, 2008, 04:53 PM
If they are the gateway to the internet (and it's uses) and if they knowingly allow an illegal activity to be committed through their gateway, damn right they should be held accountable.

Let's not muddy the water with the "you can't hold the gun manufacturers responsible for murder" argument

MacGregor
February 1st, 2008, 05:09 PM
If they are the gateway to the internet (and it's uses) and if they knowingly allow an illegal activity to be committed through their gateway, damn right they should be held accountable.

Let's not muddy the water with the "you can't hold the gun manufacturers responsible for murder" argument

I agree with that, but that's not what I'm speaking about.
'Knowning' is the part that bothers me. As I wrote a couple of postings before, it NOT their responsibility to find out (aka monitor all the traffic).

Mac


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dwoz
February 1st, 2008, 05:16 PM
Someone want to go into the discussion of what an IP stack looks like? And what the little thingy that gets passed around the internet looks like?

If you want to keep the analogy to the gun manufacturers, you have to imagine that the gun manufacturers get thousands of little boxes, each containing one part, one screw, one spring, one piece of rubber...and the boxes are all sealed and have no part numbers. The gun manufacturer just re-ships the boxes to the end user. About half of the little boxes don't have parts in them at all, they just contain little notes that say, "ok".

The boxes don't come in all on the same truck...they arrive helter-skelter throughout the day, and many of them seem to come from many different addresses.

dwoz

dwoz
February 1st, 2008, 05:31 PM
by the way...it's not that I'm "unsympathetic to the cause". It's that, with VoIP (i.e. skype) running, an ISP would, in the face of encrypted packets, be utterly, completely unable to actually tell what kind of "stuff" is going through their pipe.

THey'd ONLY have the volume to go by, and it would, in the face of absolutely legitimate traffic like an open skype call, be impossible to tell what was going on...UNLESS the "internet" (read, the FBI/CIA) kept a database of everyone's contacts with everyone else, and looked for patterns. But...what if I have a skype call with someone who, as it happens, also has been downloading music? Would I be "implicated"? Doesn't bother you? well...if that database was actually being used by a private corporation...say, a purveyor of entertainment products...do you REALLY want them to know, at their whim, EVERYTHING about your internet habits?

I know it sounds like a strawman argument...but there really is no middle ground.

dwoz

nobby
February 1st, 2008, 05:46 PM
THey'd ONLY have the volume to go by, and it would, in the face of absolutely legitimate traffic like an open skype call, be impossible to tell what was going on...UNLESS the "internet" (read, the FBI/CIA) kept a database of everyone's contacts with everyone else, and looked for patterns.

A better analogy might be law enforcement finds out that the electricity usage of your residential property is more along the lines of a factory.

That would constitute probable cause that there's a likelyhood of a marijuana grow operation and enable them to get a search warrant.

radiationroom
February 1st, 2008, 07:02 PM
A better analogy might be law enforcement finds out that the electricity usage of your residential property is more along the lines of a factory.

That would constitute probable cause that there's a likelyhood of a marijuana grow operation and enable them to get a search warrant.

Actually, yes. That is how many illegal greenhouses get busted. A few months ago, one of the snooze networks had an "expose" on "BC Bud". It was reported that Canadian authorities use excessive power usage as a tipoff of a possible greenhouse operation. Whether or not they could use the excessive power usage along {EDIT} ("along" should read "alone") {/EDIT} as justification for a warrent, I don't know. But the same **could** hold true for excessive data usage, that those accounts that burn-up allot of bandwidth would be the ones who get monitored.

Bob Olhsson
February 1st, 2008, 07:52 PM
Excessive outbound data from a residence would be really easy to track. The minute ISPs begin charging for outbound data beyond a certain threshold, the economics will change big time. I read somewhere that a tiny number of pirates and spammers account for something like 80% of all internet traffic.

dwoz
February 1st, 2008, 08:43 PM
that slippery slope you guys are walking out on has been zamboni-surfaced, and groomed with a curling brush...bon voyage.


dwoz

Bob Olhsson
February 1st, 2008, 09:12 PM
The early years of online activity was all charged by the hour and by the kb. Competition ended that however today, in case folks haven't noticed, there is little or no competition.

nobby
February 1st, 2008, 09:21 PM
that slippery slope you guys are walking out on has been zamboni-surfaced, and groomed with a curling brush...bon voyage.


dwoz

I purposely used an extant example (AFAIK law enforcement agencies have been tracking electrical usage for years).

Criminal activity often winds up curtailing the enjoyment of the law abiding.

One local village had all the park benches taken out due to gang activity except for one that was so close to the police station that from it you could make out the expression of the desk sargeant's face.

Another village had almost all the public phones taken out due to drug dealers (and not everyone has a cell phone).

So if the internet is responsible for facilitating piracy on an unprecedented scale, and I think we can agree that it is, you have to expect those who are having their rights violated in such a wholesale manner to take some sort of step(s) to alleviate the problem.

As to whether we are falling off a slippery slope or skiing, it appears that Europe is going to beat us to it, so we'll be able to see if it's the disaster some are predicting or more of a tempest in a teapot.

I'm not sure of the details as to its implementation:

McGuinness:

Fortunately, there has recently been some tremendous momentum to get ISPs engaged -- notably in France, the UK, Sweden, Norway and Belgium. President Sarkozy's plan, the Olivennes initiative, by which ISPs will start disconnecting repeat infringers later this year, set a brilliant precedent which other governments should follow. In the U.K., the Gowers Report made it clear that legislation should be considered if voluntary talks with ISPs failed to produce a commitment to disconnect file-sharers. I'd like to see the U.K. government act promptly on this recommendation.

In Sweden, the Renfors Report commissioned by the Ministry of Justiceg ISP cooperation. And in the courts, the Sabam-Tiscali ruling spelt out, in language as plain as could be, that ISPs should take the steps required to remove copyright-infringing material from their networks. The European Union should now take up the mantle and legislate where voluntary intra-industry agreement is not forthcoming. This is the time to seize the day.

ISPs don't just have a moral reason to step up to the plate -- they have a commercial one too. IFPI estimates say illegal P2P distribution of music and films accounts for over half of all ISP traffic. Others put the figure as high as 80%. This is traffic that is not only destroying the market place for people who are trying to make a legitimate living out of music and films, it is hogging bandwidth that ISPs are increasingly going to need for other commerce, especially as a legitimate online market for movies develops.

radiationroom
February 1st, 2008, 11:49 PM
The early years of online activity was all charged by the hour and by the kb. Competition ended that however today, in case folks haven't noticed, there is little or no competition.

Unless I want to purchase my own fractional T1 line, I have two choices for broadband access for my studio operation - Verizon and Comcast. That is as much choice as Apple and Microsoft. :Mad:

Like I said before on the pages of the WOMB.... "....freedom in the eys of Corperate America is giving the customer the choice of what color toilet paper they wipe their collective asses with...."

mousdrvr
February 2nd, 2008, 12:48 AM
that slippery slope you guys are walking out on has been zamboni-surfaced, and groomed with a curling brush...bon voyage.


dwoz

word



-mous

Spock
February 2nd, 2008, 01:55 AM
:Thumbsup: To what Dwoz said.

I agree something needs to be figured out, but the ISPs, the transport service is not the problem, and making them part of it just will not work.

So if I call up mous on his cell phone and we plan a crime, my local carrier and mous' cell provider are not going to listen in without a warrent. Period.

The other thing that is not right is the thought that all copyrighted data must be large. So trying to figure out traffic rates is not going to do anything. I have run into problems with people ripping off my photos. The comments from some of these people, "Well if I can see it on the internet, then it is in public domain and fair game."

But back to the ISPs monitoring all your traffic, you are now going to MAKE them do something that the FBI and NSA are blocked from doing. They can't listen to anything that includes a US citizen without a warrent. So how are you going to give a corporation, which by design has less rights than people, more rights than people or the government?

Let stop thinking of this in terms of the net, but in terms of a shipper. You can't expect them to open every package that is shipped looking for anything, drugs, copyrighted material, etc.

dnafe
February 2nd, 2008, 02:39 AM
Bottom line guys is you are absolutely right but remember it is these same corporations you are defending who are making money off our blood, sweat and tears and as far as I'm concerned until they pony up to the table with some real money in compensation they are just as guilty as the assholes who are stealing our content.

Maybe that's a naive point of view but I bet you I'm not the only one who feels that way.

nobby
February 2nd, 2008, 04:21 AM
Let stop thinking of this in terms of the net, but in terms of a shipper. You can't expect them to open every package that is shipped looking for anything, drugs, copyrighted material, etc.

The issue of privacy vs. piracy is a troubling one.

I know one thing. If you're a shipper and you're shipping something into the country, the only reason they don't open every shipping container is because they don't have the manpower, and because it would slow down commerce. They do scan for radiation and sniff with bomb dogs, drug dogs. And they search as many containers as they can. I've had my van searched a couple of times going into NYC, no probable cause required -- say hello to the 21st century.

They x-ray your luggage before you go onto a commercial plane... and don't even think about smuggling a piece of fruit into the country. And if you look nervous they're likely to go through your luggage -- privacy be damned.

They search the hell out of my car when I go to Canada. I honestly think they profile me because I don't cut my hair the way "respectable" people (and actual smugglers) do.

It's disturbing to me that we're even having this conversation, but OTOH I'm with Dnafe, I don't feel like just shrugging my shoulders and saying "Oh well, let's just give up and let the pirates and smugglers get away with it".

Spock
February 2nd, 2008, 05:00 AM
Bottom line guys is you are absolutely right but remember it is these same corporations you are defending who are making money off our blood, sweat and tears.....

My comments do not come from defending corporations. In fact, I'm trying to find a nice quote from a federal judge. It says we a government of the people by the people and for the people, corporations exists only because the people allow them to have limited rights. And giving them the same rights as people devalues the rights of the people.

I also don't want to government watching everything I download/upload.

Now if someone has some of my copyrighted material on a website, I'm going to contact the web provider and have them take it down and/or give me the information on the person that owns that web page. But, I'm not going to hit up Ohio Bell because someone viewed the web page in question over a dialup line.

mousdrvr
February 2nd, 2008, 06:11 AM
Spock!

I drink to you sir.




-mous

JMP2204
February 2nd, 2008, 07:11 AM
While we are on the subject of content filtering by ISPs, my bet is that so-called "net neutrality" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality) will be a thing of the past in ten years. All the major carriers are installing fiber, not so they can sell you broadband, but so they can sell you other services such as VoD, VoIP, and "digital POTS" among other offerings. These new services will require lots of bandwidth, and when somebody is running lots of torrents that bandwidth can be eaten up pretty quickly even with todaze' infrastructure. So my bet is that protocols such as torrents which can be disruptive to general net traffic is what will be banned from various networks, not specific content.

I am still on the fence about net neutrality. I think it has a good chance of success, but not in the way most people think.

If you take a look at Internet2, you get a great picture of what the future of the Internet will be. I believe the single most important new technology is Dynamic Circuit Networks. Especially in the Real-Time collaboration space. The idea of having a guaranteed temporary circuit is pretty awesome.

The important thing to bear in mind is that the "Internet" is getting faster, better, and bigger every day.

I remember the predictions that Mosaic 1.0 would bring the Internet to a crawl... We used to have a joke about it: Internet reaches capacity and shuts down - News at 11

It won't happen... Today's bandwidth requirements will be tiny compared to what is coming...

JMP2204
February 2nd, 2008, 07:19 AM
Someone want to go into the discussion of what an IP stack looks like? And what the little thingy that gets passed around the internet looks like?

If you want to keep the analogy to the gun manufacturers, you have to imagine that the gun manufacturers get thousands of little boxes, each containing one part, one screw, one spring, one piece of rubber...and the boxes are all sealed and have no part numbers. The gun manufacturer just re-ships the boxes to the end user. About half of the little boxes don't have parts in them at all, they just contain little notes that say, "ok".

The boxes don't come in all on the same truck...they arrive helter-skelter throughout the day, and many of them seem to come from many different addresses.

dwoz

Add to that the latest wave of "privacy" tools, and you have a real problem. There are, of course, always ways to defeat any system - but the prospect of wide spread Onion-Routing would make it nearly impossible to know where anything is coming from or going to.

Much better to focus on creating a compelling online music experience. The gaming industry has done an amazing job at that, and the blinking lights on my router tell me that a WHOLE LOT of data is being transferred. Funny thing - the gamers in my house don't care what it costs for bandwidth, as long as they get a real-time experience...

JMP2204
February 2nd, 2008, 07:26 AM
If they are the gateway to the internet (and it's uses) and if they knowingly allow an illegal activity to be committed through their gateway, damn right they should be held accountable.

Let's not muddy the water with the "you can't hold the gun manufacturers responsible for murder" argument


Think of it this way: Neither your ISP, nor (conceivably :Wink:) any other entity can determine what you are transmitting or receiving when you do your online banking with 128bit SSL.

Now imagine that SSL is old technology in Internet terms, and even more secure software is available.

Kinda scary...

dnafe
February 2nd, 2008, 02:03 PM
I guess I'm getting a little tired of hearing all the reasons why something can't be done even though I understand and truly appreciate the near impossibility of monitoring and controlling internet traffic.

But my statement still stands. These companies are raking in millions of dollars and handing out peanuts in return and that mentality, like that of the average downloader, must be changed.


I like concept that dwoz put forward in his scrapping royalties thread and agree with JMP (and a host of others) that we need to create a "compelling online music experience"


It's too bad musicians and songwriters couldn't refuse the commercial use of any of our copyrighted material for a while...just imagine...no music anywhere except what you play on your music player of choice...I wonder how long it would take for the powers that be to change their tune.

:grin:

nobby
February 2nd, 2008, 02:14 PM
Much better to focus on creating a compelling online music experience. The gaming industry has done an amazing job at that

Someone is going to have to show me how the gaming industry is analogous to the music biz...

dnafe
February 2nd, 2008, 02:36 PM
Someone is going to have to show me how the gaming industry is analogous to the music biz...


Games are a creation of someone's imagination

Games are sold on a compact disc or downloaded via the internet

Games are copyrighted

Games can be pirated


But they aren't

Bob Olhsson
February 2nd, 2008, 04:34 PM
Games haven't had a multi million dollar industry promoting their piracy with a wink and a nod.

shikawkee
February 2nd, 2008, 04:53 PM
P.S.-I don't think putting Steve Jobs in charge is the answer either!!! Everyone has an opinion on how to stop the horses leaving the stall after they've broken through but none of them point to a new fence or model if you will. Maybe that's what's really needed. But sure as heck don't put Silicon Valley in charge!!!

JMP2204
February 2nd, 2008, 06:02 PM
Games are a creation of someone's imagination

Games are sold on a compact disc or downloaded via the internet

Games are copyrighted

Games can be pirated


But they aren't

Games cost a LOT of money to make - by a host of many different talented and creative individuals

Games started as a single user experience - out of what is essentially a multi-user idea (think board games or sports vs. the original single user games. For music think iPod vs. going to a club with your friends)

Games are entertainment

Games speak to a basic human experience.

Added:
Games are pirated via the Internet

Games are copied

Games are cracked

Games have their IP stolen to create new games just like them

I am not saying Games are music. I am saying the Game industry saw an opportunity to change their model, and they went at it full tilt.

The idea here is not that music CAN'T have a compelling multi-user online experience that people gladly pay for - The issue is that no one wants to make the investment to create one. It's pretty obvious to anyone that has an Internet connection that the whole social networking experience in all it's forms is profitable.

Bob Olhsson
February 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM
The games industry and their investment bankers are who created the personal computer industry.

They didn't need to change anything and are precisely the folks who are attempting to take over the entertainment industry by devaluing every creative individual's intellectual property to the point that they can only function as an employee and not as a competitor.

shikawkee
February 2nd, 2008, 06:42 PM
It seems to me Silicon Valley has succeeded at phase one by making music worthless so they can control profit margins via compulsory licensing.

Bob Olhsson
February 2nd, 2008, 06:53 PM
Worse than controlling profit margins, compulsory licensing means that absolutely any company can jump on and sell anything that becomes a hit.

It will mean the end of the indi record industry because only companies having a huge amount of capitalization will be able to survive. They will make the major labels look like charities.

mousdrvr
February 2nd, 2008, 10:17 PM
Worse than controlling profit margins, compulsory licensing means that absolutely any company can jump on and sell anything that becomes a hit.

It will mean the end of the indi record industry because only companies having a huge amount of capitalization will be able to survive. They will make the major labels look like charities.

Ok they've given me an idea.

I'm gonna phone up Crunch and Spock and Mac, and they, I and some of the other geeks up in here are going to start our own consortium.

We will start lobbying hard for compulsory licenses of all the major software products we need to do our Jobs. Just like in most of the declarations before the CRB, we'll make the following argument.

Times are hard and none of us are making enough money to warrant continuing in the development business, if you don't essentially force Adobe, Metrowerks, Autodesk, Matlab et all, To offer us a license of their products asymptotically approaching FREE. Do this now, or we will all be forced to go work at Starbucks!


"I've been reading the testimony and maybe some of you guys can school me, but essentially this seems like the argument. we can't make money unless we can get this stuff for free, make them give it to us!"


It's unbelievable :lol:





-mous




-mous

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 12:13 AM
I have said it over and over again...and I'll KEEP SAYING IT GODDAMNIT....


There is NO LONGER ANY BASIS for determining royalties based on the notion of a "physical copy".

That concept NO LONGER EXISTS.

IF you look at BitTorrent, and think of it's next generation...where no user ANYWHERE actually possesses a complete full copy at any given instant of time...where the MEDIA RESOURCE itself is distributed...then there IS NO COPY.

Now, having said that, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING that we need to get paid, somehow.

the point is... THERE IS NO WAY to carry the old licensing model based on copies, forward with the technology that we have now. The old model simply doesn't contemplate the idea that there is no physical copy (...er....RADIO...nudge nudge)

We have to forge DIRECT licensing arrangements between audiences and musicians.

Basically, instead of the way it is now...where intermediate companies manage the revenues, and share it BACKWARD toward the artist, it will be reversed. The artist will manage the revenue, and share it FORWARD to the secondary rightsholders.

dwoz

mousdrvr
February 3rd, 2008, 01:05 AM
I hope I didn't provoke that.

My response was completely glib. Personally I think any scheme that is going to really work, will have to do so in the copyright equivalent of a turing machine. Where you simply assume that whatever you do will be instantly and perfectly copied and instantly distributable at a rate approaching c.
I know this is going to piss some people off but if you spend a good portion of your week sitting around whiteboards while people who are much smarter than you are, are furiously drawing the curves in question, it seems like nothing short of an asteroid or a pandemic is going to stop the trend. Leibniz, while he might be sympathetic, would also no doubt be pissing his pants. Recordings are in effect a single number, you can't control those you just can't. They exist in a VERY real but VERY abstract space. That's why something like bit-torrent can work in the first place.

Yeah usage should still be ours to control but the emphasis on a physical copy is IMHO a loosing battle. Not to say it's not worth fighting, but I think we should pick our battles and I think what you, Dwoz, propose does just that, because it explicitly moves the emphasis back to usage and away from the physical copy.




-mous

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 01:38 AM
I hope I didn't provoke that.



no...you and I are, I think, somewhat aligned on these matters


Recordings are in effect a single number, you can't control those you just can't. They exist in a VERY real but VERY abstract space. That's why something like bit-torrent can work in the first place.

Yeah usage should still be ours to control but the emphasis on a physical copy is IMHO a loosing battle. Not to say it's not worth fighting, but I think we should pick our battles and I think what you, Dwoz, propose does just that, because it explicitly moves the emphasis back to usage and away from the physical copy.

-mous

well, here's what I think: any sort of legalism that is based on some technical aspect of the process of obtaining music, will be circumvented, by slightly altering the definitions or implementation. That's what I mean by the bitTorrent comment. Currently, bitTorrent works by distributing the files around...breaking them into smaller components, and ultimately the user collects the bits from many contributing partners. Ok, so we do some kind of law about that...and they simply change the technology a bit, and make it so a final complete copy never ends up on the user's machine...it's only transient parts, never ALL of them at once. Then we change the laws again to cover THAT, and the technology responds again...

So, the point is, that we're just chasing our tail if we get into this 'game'.

I've studied this thing a bit, and it's very interesting...the mindsets of the "pirates"...the self-styled 'robin hoods'. They truly feel that they're "biting the hands of the exploiters".

That's the mindset we have to stomp on. We want to change that to make it feel to the end-user as if they're INVOLVED in the thing a bit more than as if they're buying a hamburger from a corporation. They need to feel INVESTED in it.

We're not doing that now, and in fact we're doing exactly the opposite.

The whole structure of the system has to PROVIDE INVESTITURE.

dwoz

mousdrvr
February 3rd, 2008, 02:07 AM
I've studied this thing a bit, and it's very interesting...the mindsets of the "pirates"...the self-styled 'robin hoods'. They truly feel that they're "biting the hands of the exploiters".

That's the mindset we have to stomp on. We want to change that to make it feel to the end-user as if they're INVOLVED in the thing a bit more than as if they're buying a hamburger from a corporation. They need to feel INVESTED in it.

We're not doing that now, and in fact we're doing exactly the opposite.

The whole structure of the system has to PROVIDE INVESTITURE.

dwoz


Excellent point and it speaks to what Bob O has been saying for
Quite a while. Our responsibility and sole focus as artists is to get to OUR people. They WILL invest both emotionally and financially.


-mous

dnafe
February 3rd, 2008, 02:20 AM
So now my question is, how do we react to the slap in the face the RIAA and DiMA have given us with their proposed royalty rates, assuming the US government goes along with this insanity.

Bob Olhsson
February 3rd, 2008, 02:29 AM
Thus far the judges have not gone along with this kind of thing.

One problem is that the DiMA has generally used the tactic of refusing to negotiate and then throwing a big public tantrum followed by whining to Congress for the laws to be changed. There should be no compulsory license and everything should just be negotiated.

Immanuel
February 3rd, 2008, 02:34 AM
I don't like the idea of not having a copy of the music I buy.

1) As a consumer:
It makes me have to provide a constant cash flow to keep listening to the music. If for some reason I can not do that, I loose the music - at a moment, when I might need it the most.

2) As a composer/songwriter:
I strongly believe it will only be a matter of time before there will be a massive push from ISPs (or others) to provide "flat rate music listening". I simply find it very hard to believe, that this move will not affect the composers/songwriters income in a bad way. I may be wrong. But I sense there will be very strong powers against us. I also sense, that it will make music less expensive ("pr. listen") to the ones with more money and - relatively to that - more expensive to those who can not afford a flat rate license.


What I would like to see is a move towards only making songs available for legal download at 1 (one) place: The artist's own web page or their sub domain at their publisher's web page. My hope is, that this will make the connection from the listener to the artist more direct, and the listener will feel they are making a more direct contribution to the artists. It will also take away any doubt, that artists are getting screwed big time by i.e. Russian web pages selling "legal" (maybe in Russia - but not at rates accepted by the performing artists) downloads at dumped prices.

Physical copies should still be made available, because some people want them, and some people are not on the net - or just do not have access to a high enough bandwidth.

mousdrvr
February 3rd, 2008, 02:47 AM
Thus far the judges have not gone along with this kind of thing.

One problem is that the DiMA has generally used the tactic of refusing to negotiate and then throwing a big public tantrum followed by whining to Congress for the laws to be changed. There should be no compulsory license and everything should just be negotiated.

That's really it isn't it? Whining and Tantrums.

I'm glad the Judges appear sane.

I really don't see the problem with having things negotiated. They could get the mous oeuvre for cheap and I would be happy for the exposure but I can't see why my brothers and sisters higher up the food chain, should be forced to take that deal. That blows




-mous

nobby
February 3rd, 2008, 02:50 AM
There is NO LONGER ANY BASIS for determining royalties based on the notion of a "physical copy".

That concept NO LONGER EXISTS.

I predicted that 7 years ago, and I'm no computer geek (NTTAWWT).

There are some people, believe it or not, that don't own personal computers or ipods. I know of 2 within 100 feet of where I'm typing, guys between the ages of 28 and 45. I realize that that is anecdotal to an extent, and a few years hence you won't be able to buy a pre-recorded CD, at least not at a store, and not for any kind of profit to speak of.

No longer exists is a bit premature, but, point taken.

Now, having said that, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING that we need to get paid, somehow.

I'm going to assume you mean we, the music community, as opposed the IT community.

the point is... THERE IS NO WAY to carry the old licensing model based on copies, forward with the technology that we have now. The old model simply doesn't contemplate the idea that there is no physical copy (...er....RADIO...nudge nudge)

We have to forge DIRECT licensing arrangements between audiences and musicians.

Basically, instead of the way it is now...where intermediate companies manage the revenues, and share it BACKWARD toward the artist, it will be reversed. The artist will manage the revenue, and share it FORWARD to the secondary rightsholders.

dwoz

If "you" the IT community have a clue as to what "somehow" might be, please share it with "we" the music community, at your earliest convenience.

Because those of us who may specialize in music, but flunked computer geek (or at least I) figure that if the problem is a technological one, there's probably a technological aspect to its solution.

Just pretend that everyone agrees completely with the premise and try to flesh out the actual implementation of the solution. Then we can stop wringing our hands and roll up our sleeves.

nobby
February 3rd, 2008, 03:13 AM
Then we change the laws again to cover THAT, and the technology responds again...

So, the point is, that we're just chasing our tail if we get into this 'game'.

The cat and mouse game is played out over and over anyway. That keeps Macaffe in business, among others. Continuous security updates until the end of time.

A columnist (or editor... whatever) of Wired magazine was being interviewed on NPR this morning. He mentioned the cat and mouse game between iphone and hackers. Change it, they hack it, change it...

I've studied this thing a bit, and it's very interesting...the mindsets of the "pirates"...the self-styled 'robin hoods'. They truly feel that they're "biting the hands of the exploiters".

And suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters who are going to the promised land to screw 17 virgins for their actions (or is it 21? whatev). I guess that's very interesting also.

That's the mindset we have to stomp on. We want to change that to make it feel to the end-user as if they're INVOLVED in the thing a bit more than as if they're buying a hamburger from a corporation. They need to feel INVESTED in it.

We're not doing that now, and in fact we're doing exactly the opposite.

The whole structure of the system has to PROVIDE INVESTITURE.


That sounds closer to a platitude than a concrete idea. No, I don't have an idea either. Weed Files didn't do too well.

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 07:08 AM
*sigh*...it IS a concrete idea. Old system connects listener to record co. New system connects listener to artist. Old system Record Co. collects revenue and distributes it as appropriate to artist. New system ARTIST collects revenue and distributes it as appropriate to Record Co.

Artist is sole Licensing authority for their work. Artist sets price they're willing to license said work, either through stating a price, through auction, or some other amenable mechanism.

Your comment about suicide bombers adds zero to the discussion. Maybe George W. Bush has no need to analyze why terrorists terrorize, but we most certainly do have a need to analyze why pirates do what they do. It is the CORE of the fucking issue. If we don't solve that, we've solved NOTHING.

Its just a LITTLE BIT more complex than "they're bad people".

I've proposed something that accomplishes two things: First, puts ARTISTS in control of their licensing, and second, establishes a "self interest model" for currently rogue downloaders and file sharers to enter into a legitimate relationship with the artist.

WHat's abstract about that? Must we set rates, before we even bring this to the table?

dwoz

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 07:10 AM
If "you" the IT community have a clue as to what "somehow" might be, please share it with "we" the music community, at your earliest convenience.

I have no idea what you're on about here....you seem to be painting me as one of "them" rather than one of "us"?


dwoz

nobby
February 3rd, 2008, 07:24 AM
oh, for fuck's sake...it IS a concrete idea. Old system connects listener to record co. New system connects listener to artist. Old system Record Co. collects revenue and distributes it as appropriate to artist. New system ARTIST collects revenue and distributes it as appropriate to Record Co.

Artist is sole Licensing authority for their work. Artist sets price they're willing to license said work, either through stating a price, through auction, or some other amenable mechanism.



Oh, for fuck's sake, is there any way I can get you to move from generalities to specifics?

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 07:58 AM
Oh, for fuck's sake, is there any way I can get you to move from generalities to specifics?

Thank god you weren't a founding father. We'd have ended up with "no right turn on red" in the Constitution.


dwoz

nobby
February 3rd, 2008, 08:26 AM
Thank god you weren't a founding father. We'd have ended up with "no right turn on red" in the Constitution.


dwoz

Thank god you weren't a founding father. We'd still be paying taxes to England.

~ nobby

mousdrvr
February 3rd, 2008, 09:34 AM
Ok hold the phone.

I know everybody is talking about "the geeks". This chafes me a bit but I'll live :lol: I've lived in "The Valley" all my life and there was a time when it had a much nobler face. It doesn't now and I accept that. But when you guys say "the geeks" I think you should know who you're really talking about.

These guys are cut from a completely different cloth than the socially conscious hard working and truly brilliant cats who helped build all these wonderful toys. McGuiness' stereo type of those guys was and, to the extent they still do exist, is accurate, half hippy, half white short sleeve shirt and pocket protector. They were and still are obsessed with doing "The Right Thing", with finding the elegant and sensible solution.

No Today's Silicon Valley Poster Child is a completely different animal. I see him all the time and he scares the shit out of me.

Let me introduce you to Takashi Jorgensen, the scion of a brilliant Swedish material scientist and a Japanese concert pianist. He stands about 6'2" and looks not unlike Keanu Reeves would look if he were possessed by the spirt of Christopher Walken and his eyes blazed with an incendiary intelligence.

He was a brilliant student and champion tennis player, but much to his mother's disappointment, he was never really taken with the arts. Oh he excelled at his Cello lessons, but he never felt the shear overwhelming joy of music, in fact, despite his universally 98th percentile existence, he has not yet truly felt the shear overwhelming joy of anything, but he lusts for it and I'll get to that.

Takashi or Tak as he likes to be called, is not a CS guy really. Oh sure he did his undergrad in CS but that's because he thought all the Liberal Arts professors at Stanford were wankers and he was good at math, that and he had a plan.

When Tak was done his undergrad in the mid 90's he faced the only serious decision of his life. Was it to be Law School followed by a lightening dash to Partner at Wilson Sonsini or would it be an MBA. The choice was the only one ever made for him, for some reason despite his perfect LSAT score, Tak was not accepted to Harvard law school. He was accepted to Stanford B school and there you have it.

Flash forward 10 years. Tak has had some success in the VC world. He drives a BMW and wears really really expensive versions of casual clothes. When you speak to him, he comes off a bit like a marketing guy, all buzzwords and acronyms, everything is "a space". The difference is that this cat is hyper sharp. He says the same shit , but he really understands it. He also has a conspicuous lack of speech mannerism and almost never uses throw away words like "umm..." or "well......". He always has a point and he always gets right to it. He is also personable. He has an easy sense of humor, he remembers your name and what "space" you are in, and he looks you in the eye when he talks to you.

He's not lacking an aesthetic sense and he does genuinely appreciate an elegant idea, but he doesn't wax poetic like an endearing old school geek. He gets his juice from the big score. That's what he wants more than anything. It's not the money per se, he's always had enough. It's hitting a certain rock star level of "relevance", that he craves above everything else, to be right there when something really big hits. Nothing else really matters and unless we as geeks or artists have the overwhelming stench of "right about to pop", we are the little people and what is best for us does not matter at all.

He does not want to solve your problems if he can't take that solution IPO.



-mous

bunnerabb
February 3rd, 2008, 12:59 PM
The tail is wagging the dog bloody.

"Big score" is the new motivation.

Fuck how you get there, fuck how you get paid, just get paid.

Since when has gangsta rap mentality produced anything other than gangsta rap?

"Ahma get PAYED, yo!"

So you have this economic tautology wherein the creation of wealth, by any means, drives creation, engineering, R&D, and eventually.. culture.

You can't shovel shit all day and come home smelling like a rose.

So we have this new toy that will model almost anything.

Music, films, text.. and it can distribute those simulacrums all over the world in milliseconds and they can be stored and losslessly copied with no difference between copies.

"But, doesn't that defy the laws of physics?"

It would.

If those things existed.

They're just mathematical simulacrums.

I'm not living in the museum of not getting it.

Data is not a product.

Data is something that runs on a box that processes math and that math spits out simulacrums of things to a screen or and A/D converter ot a printer.

Printed pages are things.

Compact discs and recordings are things.

Data is a bunch of numbers on a drive that tells other numbers what to do with those numbers and a MODEL of whatever that thing is, is displayed.

This marvelous new world is pretty much based on seriously amazing calculators.

Nothing inherently wrong with that, as a hobby.

It's entertaining, I suppose.

For that matter, shut off the power grid and it's 1834.

Electricity is a meterable product and people pay for it to keep them from living in 1834, and need to, because it is a measurable thing.

Use it wrong; it kills you, stop making it and the world changes but the fact of the matter is that data is just a bunch of models of things that can only interact with other data and they spit out things that look and sound and appear to be like the actual things, but they're pretty much just ephemera.

This isn't buggy whips, this isn't Luddite, this is back the fuck up and look at your socio-economic saviour machine.

Because the last killer app was distributable electricity.

Everything else just uses it.

"The people I distrust most are those who want to improve our lives but have only one course of action." - Frank Herbert

Bob Olhsson
February 3rd, 2008, 05:00 PM
Old system connects listener to record co. Except that this has never been true. Who the hell ever bought a record just because it was on Columbia Records?

Sorry, the record business has never been about anything but connecting listeners to artists and then selling merchandise and tickets to the listeners.

Enrico Caruso redefined the "industry" (what a pompous egotistical concept...) as being about this in 1907 and it hasn't changed a bit since then.

shikawkee
February 3rd, 2008, 05:20 PM
I really dig this idea that artists can be connected directly to listeners. How exactly do you propose this?

Bob Olhsson
February 3rd, 2008, 05:20 PM
He does not want to solve your problems if he can't take that solution IPO. Thank you!

I spent from the mid '80s until we moved to Nashville in 2001 hanging out with that crowd because my wife was a tech "press" editor and her cousin had been Microsoft's first employee located in Silicon Valley. (We met at BMUG and the Stanford Music Special Interest Group.)

These guys are perfectly willing to kill everybody's ability to earn their living from music in order to float another IPO.

nobby
February 3rd, 2008, 05:51 PM
Sorry, the record business has never been about anything but connecting listeners to artists and then selling merchandise and tickets to the listeners.


I'll agree with that as long as copies of studio and live recordings are merchandise.

Dwoz says copies of recordings are a thing of the past and I say they will be soon. I think we're on the same page, or at least the same chapter, and I hope that isn't chapter 11 for the content providers.

Okay, so the new system will be (already is to a large degree) instead of having physical copies or even virtual copies, we have streams of data.

We have lost the sales of physical copies, but we have gained in that instead of streaming radio for 50 miles we can stream virtual radio all over the world.

As Bob mentioned on another thread, what we need to do as content providers is to fight for our share.

Apple is getting $8 a month from AT&T from each iphone it sells out of the monthly fee AT&T charges. (http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9747031-7.html)

That's unprecedented in that manufacturers used to just sell the phones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but without content the iphone is just a cell phone and storage device.

Are the content providers getting a piece of the action from AT&T? From Apple?

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 06:21 PM
Thank god you weren't a founding father. We'd still be paying taxes to England.

~ nobby



now, THAT's funny!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

dwoz

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 06:43 PM
Except that this has never been true. Who the hell ever bought a record just because it was on Columbia Records?

Sorry, the record business has never been about anything but connecting listeners to artists and then selling merchandise and tickets to the listeners.

Enrico Caruso redefined the "industry" (what a pompous egotistical concept...) as being about this in 1907 and it hasn't changed a bit since then.


What I'm saying here, is "follow the money". With respect to recorded music, it almost NEVER (in the "traditional industry model") involves the artist. ECONOMICALLY, the artist is disconnected, decoupled from the relationship with the listener.

I think that THIS is one (of several) of the key factors that the "pirates" latch on to to justify their actions.

Think of the analogy of food distribution. When you go down to your local neighborhood Wal-Mart (irony intended), and you buy a pint of strawberries in february, do you have some kind of connection with those illegal mexicans working in the fields outside San Diego? No. You're paying Wal-Mart, and sure, the grower is eventually getting some of that money, but they are entirely decoupled from your experience.

And, for the most part, Wal-mart would have it no other way. They absolutely DON'T BELIEVE in fostering your "relationship" with the Purina Corporation, from whom you buy your kitty chow.

It's a sterile, disconnected model. And so, when you walk out of Wal-Mart, and when you are putting the groceries away at home, you realize that somehow the checkout person forgot to scan the big bag of dog food down in the bottom section of the shopping cart, you don't necessarily feel this tremendous urge to go driving back over there, and make sure that Wal-mart gets their money, worried that perhaps this will badly affect the Purina company...

...In direct contrast to how I react, when I unload the truck that delivered hay for my horses, from the local guy across town. I count the bales, and realize that I'm five over what I paid for, so I drive over there sometime soon and drop another checque.

dwoz

Bob Olhsson
February 3rd, 2008, 07:43 PM
What I'm saying here, is "follow the money". With respect to recorded music, it almost NEVER (in the "traditional industry model") involves the artist. ECONOMICALLY, the artist is disconnected, decoupled from the relationship with the listener.This is only in the case of advertising-sponsored music. Yes there is a problem with public perception but this was created entirely by public relations spin from the folks hoping to insert themselves in the middle between artists and fans.

Lying about the real relationships between artists and the public is not going to go away. The irony is that these scumbags are accusing record labels of doing exactly what they are trying to do when it isn't what record labels do. This is some serious Orwellian newspeak.

mousdrvr
February 3rd, 2008, 09:46 PM
So you have this economic tautology wherein the creation of wealth, by any means, drives creation, engineering, R&D, and eventually.. culture.


Exactly! I'm not sure how the whole thing is going to stay propped up. Now nothing as value but value, a tautology indeed!

-mous

dwoz
February 3rd, 2008, 10:23 PM
so...public perception being the battlefield...we need to establish some kind of way to fight in that battle. The public perception needs to be that ARTISTS ARE DRIVING, and you're SCREWING THE ARTISTS...regardless of how it actually is arranged.

The battlefield weapon that will KILL THE ENEMY, is if the ARTIST is the "pointman" for the money.

It would NOT be difficult to figure out how to make that so...


dwoz

shikawkee
February 3rd, 2008, 11:30 PM
Wait a second...let's get back to the part where the artist gets paid. I liked that part. The part where consumers get connected to the artist. How exactly does that get facilitated?

JMP2204
February 3rd, 2008, 11:38 PM
This is difficult concept to put into text... I'm sure I will not explain this as well as I should... But here goes...

Technology has enabled this new "age" and economy that is driven by pure ideas. It's been a long time coming, and it is an outgrowth of the information age. All of our previous "ages" - particularly the industrial age - were driven by the physical products that were created by ideas. It is a subtle but important difference because our laws and ethical behaviors connect to the physical products, even though we really were buying the ideas and innovations that created those products.

Somewhere along the line, as a society, we forgot to stress the legal and ethical importance of paying people for their IDEAS. And most of our laws really disregard ideas unless they translate into a physical manifestation of that idea (a product). I think there are good reasons for that, but the issue is a conumdrum.

Enter Music.

Think about this: Music can be created and sold without ever being a physical product. For instance: I write a song, and record it into my DAW, I then upload it to a music site, and someone downloads it to their MP3 player, or just streams it to their speakers. I have never actually created anything physical. I took up some hard disk space, and some bandwidth, but no-one ever held a physical product. Someone has just paid me for my pure idea.

Even our terminology is geared towards this. We buy CDs or Records, or MP3s but we never talk about buying a song. Songs are simply instructions to the soul. They are ideas that take an artistic form, and the listener connects to those songs because they speak into their lives.

I think this is the core problem that Bob talks about - Connecting the artist to the consumer. Stressing the importance of commissioning (paying) the artist to continue to speak into our lives with their ideas.

What I am trying to say is that we need a way to assign value to the song itself and not the media. That will allow ethical, and legal behavior to be transmitted to consumers so that they understand that they are "stealing", even if no physical product has been taken.

I believe it is probably the role of music industry organizations to represent and champion these ideas.

shikawkee
February 4th, 2008, 12:03 AM
What I am trying to say is that we need a way to assign value to the song itself and not the media. That will allow ethical, and legal behavior to be transmitted to consumers so that they understand that they are "stealing", even if no physical product has been taken.

I believe it is probably the role of music industry organizations to represent and champion these ideas.

I agree with you here but without a strong lobby, ie: $$$, it can't happen without an across-the-board accord within the industry. Possible? Sure. Probable? Not likely.

But we do need to make people aware of the value of our work, how important music has been in their lives and what it would be like without it, and assign accountability to the public for their actions (ie: stealing music/not paying). This could all be done via town hall meetings in towns across the country with the top people and artists in the music biz and also via PR but that's all part of the $$ part. Lobbying and travel takes money and solidarity.

There still needs to be a more direct, simpler way to get music exposed and get paid at the same time. Distribution will always be the key. How can we get the larger music distributors to believe and make the leap of faith?

dwoz
February 4th, 2008, 01:17 AM
I believe that the KEY lies in what I said earlier, in my "royalties" thread...


...The goal is to do two things:

First, to get the artist paid. That includes the writer, the performer, and the structure of services and suppliers that the artist engages to place music into the public purview.

Second, to make all aspects of the end-user/end-listener experience be about a RELATIONSHIP with the artist.


Those are the goals.

The solution I am thinking of, involves defining the ARTIST as the ULTIMATE LICENSING AUTHORITY for their works.

Now, today, the artist really IS that. However, the nature of the industry today really obfuscates that fact, and instead injects intermediaries into the transactional flows between artist and end-user.

So, the Artist is the License Authority for their works. That means that the Artist is set up to provide to the END-USER him/herself, a Non-repudiatable 'certificate' that is a DIRECT recognition of an agreement directly between the Artist and the end-user.

That "certificate" may take the form of an actual paper thing...a printed cert, or a stamp, a wallet card or some such thing, or be in an electronic form, with a public/private key signature. The important thing about it is that it represents a DIRECT agreement between the artist and the end user about their use of the music.

So, every artist that is "in" on this framework, has some server somewhere, that will produce license files upon request.

The record companies stand aside and stay quiet over on the side...because their SR rights are 'bundled' with the writer's rights. The record companies need not worry about accounting or getting paid...the system will allow for things like escrows and such...

But the main point is, the user's experience is NOT that they are transacting with some behemoth corporation, their experience is that they are transacting DIRECTLY with the artist, with whom they negotiate the license terms (price).

I definitely imagine a marketplace (ebay-like), where you put in a 'bid' for a license...like a reverse auction where you bid, say, 25 cents for a license, and if some minimums are met, you 'win' a license auction. Or, it's done like a stock or commodities market...or a simple, "$0.50 buys a license".

Whatever the mechanism for pricing licenses, the end-user pays for the licenses, directly to the Artist...perhaps via paypal or some other micropayments method.

Throughout, the end-user is made to believe and understand that they are dealing DIRECTLY with the artist. That money goes to the ARTIST, and the artist will then pay whoever he/she has to from there.

Now, at that point, the user could go to iTunes or some free download site, and present their license certificate, which would "authorize" the download of the file. The download of the FILE ITSELF could be burdened by advertising...i.e. you must go through ads to get to the file, and there you go, you can play.

The "testing" of the certificate is done via checking the license with the supplied (library) public key from the artist, and the supplied public key from the end user, and if they both match, then the download is enabled.

All this can happen completely in the background, outside of the notice or need for action or intervention on the part of the user.

Each distributor of a file must have themselves obtained a distribution license for the file, and they will 'bundle' their license along with the file. The ONLY "statutory" part of the whole arrangement is, that the monetary rate for providing file downloads is set by statute...Some portion of this money comes out of the artist's royalty.

This isn't too much different than the way it is today...Right now, some rack-jobber distributor out there takes his 'cut' of the gross, to pay for his services as distributor. The thing I'm proposing for this new license structure is much the same. The artist is required to escrow the statutory distribution cost, from the proceeds of the license sale.

All the movings back and forth of micropayments, and the bidding and selling of licenses could all occur in a "music listener's license stock market". This market could also "clear" the escrow distribution funds. If the artist was themselves the distributor (fulfillment agent) for the license, then the artist would also 'claim' the escrow distribution funds.

The artist could "float an IPO" into the market, when they release an album, and essentially get front end money that way...there's lots of possible ways this sort of thing could get done.

dwoz

shikawkee
February 4th, 2008, 01:38 AM
But what the big distributors can do is deliver your product to a wider end-user audience. Otherwise exclusive licenses and artistic property don't mean much. If no-one knows who you are what good is it? That's the devil in the equation.

bunnerabb
February 4th, 2008, 03:17 AM
I'm watching the Super Bowl half time show.

Billions of dollars changed hands over this event.

Ads that cost more money than some of us will ever see, just to play on breaks.

The production budget rivals a fucking Pink FLoyd tour.

The ne plus ultra of guys running back and forth with a football.

This is the gig of the year.

So.. half time.

Chinese acrobats?

Strippers?

A demonstration of Vista's cool desktop?

Nope.

A rock band.

A Jim Dandy rock band.

I wonder if they outsourced them from China.