Does a Venue have any rights to your live recording?

[Kris]

Scenario:

A band plays at a festival and makes a multi-track recording and also shoots video in anticipation of a DVD release.

Promoters of the festival caught wind of the DVD release and are trying to bar (or at least delay) it's release due to 'legal and $$ issues'?

Do they have any legal basis for this?

Thanks!

[Goes211]

Mmm...kind of a grey area.

I'm not saying this is a rule, but I'd say recording the gig (sound) is merely a performance of the band in an anonymous venue. Once there is a visual identification of the venue, it could be argued you use the venue's image to promote yours.
"Goes211 plays Che stadium" (let's see who can spot that one :grin: ).

An AE friend was on tour with QOTSA and his job was to record them everyday. He took a split from the desk and plugged it into his little rig. They didn't have a specific "live" release in mind, it just made sense to do it that way. It was never an issue with the venues. But it was sound only.

As a matter of fact, quite a few venues in Europe will offer recording your gig in a pro fashion as an extra option. One I know very well offers it for a cost of less than a 1000 bucks + the hard drive and you get all tracks in PT format + a reference rough mix on CD + a DVD (visual). That includes use of their Euphonix /PT HD studio linked to the stage and superbly competent AE (amazing live guy). No strings attached. You pay for it, it's yours to use as you wish.
1000 bucks for a touring pro band who play 1500-2000 audience venues makes a whole lot of sense.

Always better to ask first whenever image is concerned.

[Kris]

Interesting... So the video may be the issue. I do know that they thank the 'venue' in the DVD.

[Johnny]

"Goes211 plays Che stadium" (let's see who can spot that one :grin: ).

http://thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-muerto.jpg

[eagan]

The short answer:

Absolutely fucking no.

Longer:

This sounds like a very simple case of somebody trying simple extortion, using lawyers to threaten to be such a pain in the ass that someone will offer to cough up money for nothing more than agreeing to go away and not be a pain in the ass (even while knowing there is no real legal basis for any action).

The only exception would be if some sort of specific agreement regarding such things is part of a contract, and in that kind of case, nobody can answer this question without considering that contract. You'd have to ask an attorney about that with the contract in hand.

Incidentally, a not so minor point here:

The subject header asks about "venue", but then you explain the question and refer to "promoters of the festival".

?

The "venue" and "promoters" are two different entities, unless it happens to be a case where the venue people are also acting in the role of promoters as well.

Now, like I said, as part of the contract for that festival, it would all depend on if there was some specific agreement about intellectual property rights with the people operating the festival (not necessarily also being the "venue", the physical facility and people running it), and that could only be addressed by a lawyer with any relevant contracts in their hands. Not us.

JLE

[Goes211]

http://thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-muerto.jpg

errr... nice try, but...nope.
:grin:

[Kris]

Thanks a bunch for the insight... I was trying to speak in general terms, but you're right I'm referencing a specific incident. (A festival where the promoters own the venue) There was no contract stating anything like that... Seems like extortion to me too...

[Bryson]

errr... nice try, but...nope.
:grin:
"Looked a lot lke Che Guevara
Drove a diesel van......."


Shea shea sheaaaaaaaaa........

Sheayne of fools.........

[Goes211]

"Looked a lot lke Che Guevara
Drove a diesel van......."


Shea shea sheaaaaaaaaa........

Sheayne of fools.........

...jeez, is it that hard ?
here's a hint :

Leggy Mountbatten.

[volthause]

Scenario:

A band plays at a festival and makes a multi-track recording and also shoots video in anticipation of a DVD release.

Promoters of the festival caught wind of the DVD release and are trying to bar (or at least delay) it's release due to 'legal and $$ issues'?

Do they have any legal basis for this?

Thanks!

How about they sell a recording of a "random" live show, and with it comes a free DVD! I certainly think the promoters / venue couldn't stop you from giving away a DVD of a show there.

[bunnerabb]

Unless the venue has it in writing, sorry, no.

If it's in writing, you at least have a prayer.

Things that are going to make money have a predisposition to move forward - with or without legal encumberances - because nothing from nothing leaves nothing. The attorneys are just there to get you slice of the carcass and their slice of yours.

[blackieC]

...jeez, is it that hard ?
here's a hint :

Leggy Mountbatten.

Man, I can't believe I didn't catch that yesterday.

My favorite album was Ouch!

[Goes211]

Man, I can't believe I didn't catch that yesterday.

My favorite album was Ouch!

Ding ! Ding ! Ding !
Winner.
:Coolio:

[theom]

I've been a FOH live guy for many years now, done many venues and festivals all over.

When the band agreed to play the festival was there any paperwork?

Many many venues/promoters have a clause in their standard contract titled "Origination Fee".

In the USA you see these most in union houses. If you have big cred, you can negotiate these things to a point. If you agreed to do the show without asking about any recording policies they might have you over the barrel. Some of the Fee goes to all the union guys in the venue.
An Example is:
At the last headline show I worked at Town Hall in NYC, the artist had to pay $1000.00 (maybe more) just to run a dat off the 2 mix at front of house. Even doing this we had to sign off on a contract rider stating that if he ever wanted to release the recording for sale or public promotion there was a whole breakdown on additional fees and credits to be given to the venue.

You can take your festival promoter to court, but if he proves he does the recordings regularly you prob will lose the case.

He will argue that whoever agreed on your behaf to play the show didn't ask about recording. If a manager or any agent on your side signed a deal memo, (in liu of the full contract) you are fucked for sure.

[bigtimerockboy]

You can take your festival promoter to court, but if he proves he does the recordings regularly you prob will lose the case.

He will argue that whoever agreed on your behaf to play the show didn't ask about recording. If a manager or any agent on your side signed a deal memo, (in liu of the full contract) you are fucked for sure.

i don't know that much but i'd say the first point is wrong there.
it shouldn't matter if he does it every day of the week, that's not
relevant to the one instance of this band playing. the court would
see that.

the second point is that failing to ask about a contract is not automatic agreement to the terms of that contract. that's the whole reason contracts are signed. the signature forms proof admissible in court that the contract was viewed by the party compelled to abide by the contract which is drawn up by the other party. to honour an unsigned contract would make the
whole of contract law a complete farce.

a deal memo, whilst a form of contract, would be far easier to
wriggle out of than a full contract as by definition the terms would be far less clearly defined. this ambiguity would therefore
be arguable in court with a far better possibility of a successful
outcome for the artist.

i can't believe venues in america are doing this. to me it's insane.

you would think they would be cutting their own throats for future business if they were to antagonise the artists in this way.

takes all types i guess.

just shits me.

it's like the person that sells you oil paints demanding you pay
them a royalty for the painting you did when you sell it from your exhibition.

the venue is just a tool/platform for the artist to produce their
music. they get paid for that. that should be enough for them.

it the artist is recording their show they are recording THEIR SHOW, not the bloody venue.

jeeeeeezus wept

*has big emo cry*

[Kris]

you would think they would be cutting their own throats for future business if they were to antagonise the artists in this way.

-----------------------------

In this specific case, that seems apparent...

In the end the band was too nice to argue and scrapped the DVD altogether.

[Unfcknblvbl]

Another club getting smacked around:

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20070222/NEWS/102220054

[Dave Martin]

Another club getting smacked around:

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20070222/NEWS/102220054

At a guess, I'd suggest that the club owner refused (multiple times) to pay the annual ASCAP music licensing fee. On the night the ASCAP investigators were in the venue, those were some of the songs by ASCAP writers that were played.

This sort of thing has been discussed in many forums, with many opinions voiced...

[Chris Lambrechts]

One I know very well offers it for a cost of less than a 1000 bucks + the hard drive and you get all tracks in PT format + a reference rough mix on CD + a DVD (visual). That includes use of their Euphonix /PT HD studio linked to the stage and superbly competent AE (amazing live guy). No strings attached. You pay for it, it's yours to use as you wish.
.


AB in Bxl ?


Chris

[pounce]

At a guess, I'd suggest that the club owner refused (multiple times) to pay the annual ASCAP music licensing fee. On the night the ASCAP investigators were in the venue, those were some of the songs by ASCAP writers that were played.

This sort of thing has been discussed in many forums, with many opinions voiced...

yup, that's what i'm thinking as well. i'm still in the camp that considers the modest ascap fees a cost of doing business. i consider the ascap fees reasonable and many bars could make enough money in an evening to cover the costs for a year. as usual, that's a lot cheaper than trying to suss it out in court. i don't at all believe that the club wasn't aware of ascap and the fees, they just tried unsucessfully to get away with not paying and it may cost them more in the end to have done it that way.

[dwoz]

He will argue that whoever agreed on your behaf to play the show didn't ask about recording. If a manager or any agent on your side signed a deal memo, (in liu of the full contract) you are fucked for sure.


absolute nonsense. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone who SIGNED SOMETHING WITHOUT READING IT.

Try this simple experiment: replace the words "didn't ask about the recording" with "didn't ask about us using your girlfriends for sex"

Its nonsense. You're trying to allude to "usual and customary practices" in the handling of petty details that may not be enumerated in the paperwork, but that covers things like who pays the caterer, who pays the city fees, etc. Usual and customary practices cannot come into play on things like Intellectual Property.

The only thing I can come up with is that the venue/promoter owns the rights to their festival name and materials, and if anything uniquely identifiable to the festival appears in the media, they have some control of the use of their trademarks.

dwoz

[Goes211]

One I know very well offers it for a cost of less than a 1000 bucks + the hard drive and you get all tracks in PT format + a reference rough mix on CD + a DVD (visual). That includes use of their Euphonix /PT HD studio linked to the stage and superbly competent AE (amazing live guy). No strings attached. You pay for it, it's yours to use as you wish.
.

AB in Bxl ?

Chris

Exactly. Stef Van Alsenoy. He's brilliant. :Coolio:

[Comte de St Germain]

There is an answer in a contract somewhere.

Or not.

[Fulcrum]

"Goes211 plays Che stadium"

Named for the famed guerrilla leader, Che Stadium.

Only just saw this.

Shit, it only took me like five months.