Pay 4 Play... IT'S BACK!!!

[radiationroom]

Just got off the phone with another bar owner and shur'nuff he is just as much of a greedy sunnavabitch as the rest of them. Here is what he quoted me.

Room capacity - roughly 300 people.

Room rental - $1,000 (deposit in advance, goes into the bar's pocket)

Club takes 10% of the ticket/door gross.

Club's booking agent takes another 10% of the ticket/door gross.

Club takes 40% of any merchandise sales the band does on premises.

Club keeps 100% of the bar.

Production support is deducted from the ticket/door as an "expense on net" - ie: it's deducted from the money that gets divided between the band and it's manager/promotor.

The band is expected to pay for 50% of the club's advertisement costs for the night, pro-rated with other bands/nights included in the same advert.

IS IT ANY WONDER AS TO WHY BANDS ARE GOING BROKE? At $10.00-USD a ticket, one has to pull roughly 120 people just to break even on the room! At 300 tix, one has maybe a grand-and-some-change left over provided that the the room is a sell-out, before the band's personal expenses. If you have four band members, one roady, and a manager, that doesn't leave a whole lot of money to split between six people. This should clearly illustrate my position that the loss of recorded music as a profit center will drive many musical acts from the biz. Geeziz! :Mad:

[Spock]

Damn, that hurts my head just trying to figure out how badly you get screwed on that deal.

The situation is a bit worse here in Ohio. It used to be at a bar you had an amount of an organic crowd, people that came out to the bar no matter who was playing to have a few drinks, and enjoy the music. The DUI laws have been getting stronger and stronger, with check points on some roads. To a lot of people, they don't want to take an chance and will just stay home. Then in 2007 a law said no smoking in public places. It has killed the business in bars, band or no band.

Some places have figured out that they can put a roof over a patio, and that counts as no smoking inside. However no one wants to be out in the patio area when it below freezing.

So now we have greedy owners and smaller organic draws. What's next, they want my left nut to play at the place?

[Swafford]

Sorry Spock, but it's like we don't even live in the same town. While I haven't notice any change in crowds (or lack of crowds), our baseline guarantees have gone up for the original music bars we play in (base + beer + bonus if the bar does well) and in the Butler County bars I play with the country cover band, our starting pay is about $500 and will go up if we continue to pull the rednecks in. I play all over Cincinnati, Butler County and northern Kentucky and I got to say the only effect I've notice from the smoking ban is a lack of nicotine hangover and my wife doesn't make me shower before I get in to bed.

As to Rad Rooms experience, I say you bring the gas, I'll bring the matches and let's burn that fucking place down.

[radiationroom]

As to Rad Rooms experience, I say you bring the gas, I'll bring the matches and let's burn that fucking place down.

Actually, if you want to do something productive, help me find fifty investors who are willing to put up ten grand a piece to open up a club and we can run the mofo's out of business!

[contrary]

Damn, that hurts my head just trying to figure out how badly you get screwed on that deal.

The situation is a bit worse here in Ohio. It used to be at a bar you had an amount of an organic crowd, people that came out to the bar no matter who was playing to have a few drinks, and enjoy the music. The DUI laws have been getting stronger and stronger, with check points on some roads. To a lot of people, they don't want to take an chance and will just stay home. Then in 2007 a law said no smoking in public places. It has killed the business in bars, band or no band.

Some places have figured out that they can put a roof over a patio, and that counts as no smoking inside. However no one wants to be out in the patio area when it below freezing.

So now we have greedy owners and smaller organic draws. What's next, they want my left nut to play at the place?


I agree that there has to be some folks who would like to paint the town red , but stay home out of fear of exceeding the limit by a tiny amount. Here in California, they CRUCIFY you for a DUI , you spend at least $10K on the first one you've ever got in your life!!

So allot of people , smart people , do the prudent thing and rent a DVD and stay home . I've read that the deterent factor is next to negligable for the serious alchoholic , and that there all pretty much still at it , buisness as usuall, even going banco if neccesary to keep drinking .
The person who gets smoked for being slightly over the limit spreads the word and the clubs here have tumble weeds rolling through them on week nights!! ( I grew up here and the difference is'nt my imagination)

The best place to play is downtown since there is a trolley system (south half of city only) and it's accessable without the risk , But most of the clubs down there know the are in the cat bird seat and have the most outstanding bands eating shit in order to gig there !
It's a sorry situation around here , bro!!:Mad:

[M.Brane]

Around here I hear people often lament the local music scene. I just tell them the old saying about this county:

Come on vacation leave on probation.

Meanwhile the same old cover bands continue to play the same old setlists at the same old bars.

At least everybody is safe.

[contrary]

I'm not trying to say that DUI is a trivial situation ; It does seem that the pendulum has swung a little far towards the draconian side of things lately though.

[M.Brane]

Drunk driving is not the problem.

If you do something stupid, and kill/injure someone with your vehicle you should be held responsible despite your state of mind. Not because of it. There are plenty of people out there who have no business driving yet they are stone cold sober. Why do they get a pass?

It was just an accident.:Roll eyes:

Meanwhile those of us who drink yet act responsibly choose to stay home because it's just not worth the risk of losing everything should we happen into a checkpoint, some idiot runs into us, or the cops are scoping out the club parking lot looking for easy prey.

Back on topic: as long as there are starry-eyed kids that are willing to play these clubs under these conditions this practice will continue. I should know. I was once one of those starry-eyed kids playing in LA in the '80s.

Needless to say now that I am older, and wiser I don't gig anymore. Not that I don't want to, but I'll be damned if I'm going to haul my gear to some club for $50 let alone pay the club owner so that I can have the "privilege" of making him money while experiencing a net loss.

Fuck that shit.

[pipelineaudio]

They got it down to a slick, well oiled crime machine in Arizona...makes starwood look like charity

[Bob Olhsson]

My position is that this ugly situation, which is common in most of the country, already HAS driven a huge percentage of young performers from the business. Even worse, it has made young performers overdependent on radio play for exposure.

There are a million excuses but I honestly don't see the average quality of local live shows today that were common thirty years ago. People are as talented as ever but experience in front of an audience is crucial and most folks simply can't afford to get the experience they need. The result is shows that aren't compelling which results in fewer people choosing to go out.

We desperately need a new generation of local promoters.

[Swafford]

My position is that this ugly situation, which is common in most of the country, already HAS driven a huge percentage of young performers from the business. Even worse, it has made young performers overdependent on radio play for exposure.

There are a million excuses but I honestly don't see the average quality of local live shows today that were common thirty years ago. People are as talented as ever but experience in front of an audience is crucial and most folks simply can't afford to get the experience they need. The result is shows that aren't compelling which results in fewer people choosing to go out.

We desperately need a new generation of local promoters.


I think this is something that is common in most major market towns - NY, Nashville, Philly, LA, etc. but it doesn't really resemble the experience I have in medium market towns like Cincinnati or Raleigh or Knoxville. There are ample opportunities to hone your skills in front of a (small) live audience here and within 8 hours from here and the one thing that is keeping many under the radar performers from being on the road are energy costs. And after listening to Wolfgang's Vault for the last year or so, I gotta say the quality of live musicianship at your basic bar show on average now is better then the average rock and roll show at the Cow Palace. etc 30 or 40 years ago, but WV's probably not the best metric for judgment.

There's more going on then the inability of young performers to connect with audiences and has nothing to do with either experience or charisma. There's a certain jaded expectation and ennui from the average 20 something going to the average show that was missing when I was 22 or even 38 - maybe due to the abundance of run of the mill performers and/or songs, maybe due to having more entertainment options at their fingertips or maybe the whole thing has just run it's course and we're entering an era where being a musician/performer is somewhat akin to being a painter. There is a loss of magic, of feeling like your in on something that few others understand; the sense that you've discovered something that speaks to your very soul and vibrates with your experience. There's a lot of posturing and rehash with very little substance and I think people sense it and react by, well, not reacting.

Then again, as one R/E/P Music Industry Sell Side Apologist would say, I'm just old and don't get what the kids want.

[bunnerabb]

Silicon Valley is taking over media distribution.

Music is something computers do.

They've gutted VHF so TeeVee goes digital, soon.

DVD's instead of movies.

No way to keep the actual products from having the content copied.

Ridiculous DUI laws.

Bands getting nudged out, even at the live level and no way to obtain the exposure necessary to get signed to a label and try and make a living off of their CD catalogue.

Telephone service going digital.

All information and entertainment flowing through one wire to your house and it's not safe to leave that house and have a few drinks.

Bands getting asked to create business for club owners who then pay them FA.

Step back from the brush strokes and look at the canvas.

The entire entertainment industry is being turned into 1's on 0's and pushed through a wire and almost nothing else is viable.

So who needs to keep America and the EU in their homes, at night?

What's the reason?

[Mixerpuppet]

Just got off the phone with another bar owner and shur'nuff he is just as much of a greedy sunnavabitch as the rest of them. Here is what he quoted me.



IS IT ANY WONDER AS TO WHY BANDS ARE GOING BROKE? At $10.00-USD a ticket, one has to pull roughly 120 people just to break even on the room! At 300 tix, one has maybe a grand-and-some-change left over provided that the the room is a sell-out, before the band's personal expenses. If you have four band members, one roady, and a manager, that doesn't leave a whole lot of money to split between six people. This should clearly illustrate my position that the loss of recorded music as a profit center will drive many musical acts from the biz. Geeziz! :Mad:


In the Seattle area not too long ago there was the same trend happening, but the most difficult part was that bands can't sell tickets for $10.00 and sell to anyone except family members. The cost of drinking has also gone up to exacerbate the problem. It's not unusual for bars to charge $4 to $8 for beer and a mixed drink and surely by the time the evening is done you've sunk a significant chunk of change for mediocre booze and an unknown band that cost you $10.00 just to get in regardless of whether your there to see them.

At one time, band used to save thier club earning to pay for a 5 song demo in a decent studio with competent staff but with the high prices of playing combined with studio raising rates because of COLA made the old model an excercise in futility.

So can anyone point to me why the Mbox shouldn't be really tempting? MySpace? Social Networks on the internet have way more power and an amazingly cheap price when compared to an Ad agency. Bands used to advertise in local papers and circulars but not anymore. In Seattle and most of it's burbs, it's illegal to put anything on power poles, fences or anything where flyers used to be posted.

Musicians are trying to circumvent the systems by any method than can afford to use.

I know one band in particular that couldn't afford it any longer and guitar player converted his garage into a rehearsal space, bought recording gear and plan on banging it out until the goals they have are accomplished. It costs less to do it this way than what the Club circuit model does.

I think what broke the camels back for this band, is when a couple of the larger clubs asked you to sell tickets and only were allowed to play if you sold "X" amount of tickets. The clubs reasoning was that if your worth a crap talent wise you should have no problem gathering your following and bringing in customers.

So how much of the "Play Fee" is because of cover song related copywrite fees? I can see a club trying to recoup it's operating costs.

[Bob Olhsson]

Wolfgang's Vault doesn't exactly represent what was typical back then. A thirty or forty year old Sunday paper is what really speaks volumes about what has changed. In Detroit when I was in high school great music was readily available and most folks were getting paid union scale.

[pipelineaudio]

My position is that this ugly situation, which is common in most of the country, already HAS driven a huge percentage of young performers from the business. Even worse, it has made young performers overdependent on radio play for exposure..

Hey its even WORSE for the older bands and those stupid enough to actually learn how to play their instruments.

What it comes down to is : who's parents can afford the most tickets? At least in this area, the entire deal is based on a "battle of the bands" scams.

Each band (or more likely their paresnts) are given by the "promoter" a number of tickets equal to the maximum legal capacity of the club. The band must "sell " those tickets, and have the money from the ticket sales for the "promoter" at the show night. Of course if ALL the tickets got sold to actual people, the club would be in overcapacity violation.

But of course, the tickets are just for the parents to buy...maybe bring some of their friends

Good luck buying 300 tickets for ten a piece as a working band to play in front of 12 people

[radiationroom]

We desperately need a new generation of local promoters.

Unfortunately, the cost of real estate combined with the cost of liability insurance makes getting into the biz an impossibility for most, and has driven many of us who were in the biz out of it. In order for me to do a fire hall show, I need to post a twenty grand escrow insurance bond before the local hall will even talk to me. At least the club who is quoted at the top of this thread will rent their room for a grand without the need for an insurance deposit.

The every bar owner I've ever encountered, including those who were my investors in the Fenix, were in it for one reason - they saw the bar biz as being an easy way to make a pot full of money, end of story, the musicians and fans be fucked. This is why I have nothing but contempt for the so-called "hospitality business". REMEMBER! BAR OWNERS ARE NOT IN BUSINESS TO PROVIDE MUSICIANS AND DJ'S A PLACE TO PLAY. THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO SELL ALCOHOL :Mad: AND YOUR MUSIC OR OTHER ENTERTAINMENT IS THE BAIT TO GET PEOPLE THROUGH THE DOORS WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF HAVING YOUR AUDIENCE CONSUMING AS MUCH ALCOHOL AS POSSIBLE. http://messageboard.tapeop.com/images/smiles/icon_kotzen.gif This fact discriminates against certain music types, such as country linedance music, who's audiences consume less booze, than lets say, the audiences of your typcial classic rock cover band. At the end of the day, it is a numbers game, and whoever moves the most booze gets invited back to gig again. :Mad:

Since I am planning to go into the seminary, I might take a dive into promoting contemporary Christian Music, but with few exceptions IMO so-called (small "C") "christian music" never had the quality level that I was accustomed to in the DIY hip-hop/punk/alt/indie heyday of the 1980s. If I could develop a christian music scene that would hold it's own in comparason to the Led Zepplin/s, Johnny Cash/s, James Brown/s, and Miles Davis/s of the world then I would persue it with the same zeal and vigor I persued new wave, rave, and early grunge rock. But I'm sorry, Kathy Troccoli and Amy Grant never met my criteria of being "quality". Nether does the so-called "praise and worship" music that seems to be all the rage in the fundie-mega-chruches at the moment. But at least contemporary christian music has the advantage of being able to exist outside of the alcohol vending trade.

I'm going to go crawl back into my cave now. Just so you all know, I hang from my feet upside down when I sleep, just like Grandpa Munster.

http://www.jimmyakin.org/images/grandpa_munster.jpg

[McAllister]

My first boss (non-music gig) had, in a previous career, been a pro bass player. Toured with a bunch of famous people. IN the early 60s when he was a kid, his band would walk with $100/person for a nigh of playing. 3 sets.

When he was telling me this, in 1985 or so, my band was lucky to get the same price for the same work. And this was all high-school dances and stuff (i.e. where people had budgets).

And from what people tell me, bands don't work high school dances anymore - they get DJs now. And I bet they still pay about $500/night.

M

[nobby]

Ive been "inspired" by this thread into doing some research. There are 249 nightclubs listed within 30 miles of me, the advantage of having 3,000,000 people on a 15x100 mile island (I'm about 60 miles from Manhattan)

You can knock off a few that have closed without taking down their listings. 101 listed as having live entertainment.

Once you eliminate cover acts, which are the vast majority of live acts, piano bars, and band-free coffee houses there are still some of places that have original music. Manhattan is really where you go for original music, not counting well established, major label acts.

People still go out and drink, even though Nassau County has some of the harshest DUI laws, for example, confiscation of your car on a first offense (you won't get it back, either). There is so much traffic that cops can only go after people who are actually driving erratically.

Personally, if I were to go to a bar in Nassau, I'd take a train (some good nightclubs and bars are conveniently located near the tracks), a cab, or go in a group with a designated driver.

Anyway, a couple of hours of searching the web turned up a few places that have original rock bands, and one open stage on L.I. (there used to be 3; my research is not complete so I'm holding out hope)

Unfortunately, the bulk of local bands playing live are cover bands :Razz:

It looks like bet for an original band is to be really good, and open for an established act, and work it from there. Nobody ever said it was easy.

[Bob Olhsson]

A manager I used to work with divided venue owners into two classes, "food and beverage men" and "promoters." He considered the former to be "scum" who one should avoid doing business with at all costs because they were using music to sell drinks. "Promoters" were selling an entertainment experience.

So how can we encourage promoters? Are there venues people can rent for a reasonable charge? How about non-drinking venues teens can have access to?

Is it really hopeless?

How do we scale things down so the numbers work?

[Wireline]

Its been a while since I've done more than the 'show up and play as a hired gun' thing for live music...when I was involved in bookings, most of the venues around here that bothered with a contract at all had the "no originlas" clause....some of the more established groups that had a following of sorts could negitiate 1-2 per set, but other than that, originals were banned.

Most places also had (or still have) a sign on the bandstands that read "If people can't dance to it, don't play it"...

The only high school related band music I am aware of anymore are reunions from classes 1987 and older....anything after that a DJ or a kareoke singer seems to be just fine.

[nobby]

Its been a while since I've done more than the 'show up and play as a hired gun' thing for live music...when I was involved in bookings, most of the venues around here that bothered with a contract at all had the "no originlas" clause....some of the more established groups that had a following of sorts could negitiate 1-2 per set, but other than that, originals were banned.

Most places also had (or still have) a sign on the bandstands that read "If people can't dance to it, don't play it"...

The only high school related band music I am aware of anymore are reunions from classes 1987 and older....anything after that a DJ or a kareoke singer seems to be just fine.

Things aren't quite that hardcore here -- cover bands can sneak in an original or 2 during 3 hours of music. The problem is that the "originals" typically tend to be bland and/or unoriginal, in which case, why bother? Not that I'm an expert on cover bands -- I tend to avoid them. More on that later...

[Rosstapher]

Since I am planning to go into the seminary, I might take a dive into promoting contemporary Christian Music, but with few exceptions IMO so-called (small "C") "christian music" never had the quality level that I was accustomed to in the DIY hip-hop/punk/alt/indie heyday of the 1980s. If I could develop a christian music scene that would hold it's own in comparason to the Led Zepplin/s, Johnny Cash/s, James Brown/s, and Miles Davis/s of the world then I would persue it with the same zeal and vigor I persued new wave, rave, and early grunge rock. But I'm sorry, Kathy Troccoli and Amy Grant never met my criteria of being "quality". Nether does the so-called "praise and worship" music that seems to be all the rage in the fundie-mega-chruches at the moment. But at least contemporary christian music has the advantage of being able to exist outside of the alcohol vending trade.

Playing in our "praise band" is the only reason I get to play in front of anyone on a regular basis anymore. The original rock band I was most recently playing with has pretty much died because of most of the reasons mentioned above...no money, no decent venues, scared of DUI, drummer going deaf, etc. Just the price of gas for everybody to get "wherever" for a "showcase" was a point of contention. Then to have to hire a soundman/PA for some rooms. Even friends who do the "cover" stuff are hurting - it's a huge hassle/risk to drive 2 hours away to make $50. Maybe $100 if your in a power trio (we were a 5 piece). Same money we made 25 YEARS AGO! :Mad: So the Sunday morning thing is (at least) fun. Plus, given some of my past stupidity, it's probably doing me some good! Nice to play for 100-150 appreciative folks every week. Close to home. Good PA. Even some good songs - although nothing too challenging. And the best part...

In last weeks service, between songs, a little kid wondered aloud if that was Jesus playing the bass. :grin: My wife spit about half a cup of coffee down her shirt. Guess my hair has gotten a bit long. :lol:

Peter - I bet you will find some quality Christian acts and I bet you would do a great job promoting them! Good luck at seminary, too!:Thumbsup:

Check out a young band called Willet (http://www.willetonline.com/). They might interest you.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think too much "Christian" music defines itself by what it is not and preaches to the choir rather than creating compelling entertainment that will inspire anybody who hears it including the secular market.

I have the same problem with most self-proclaimed "indi." music. Holier than thou and indier than thou are closely related elitist self-indulgences.

To me there are also sound-alike bands and then there are original bands who play mostly covers. The latter is work young folks out to be pursuing so that they can learn how to create material that is as good as the songs they cover. This was how virtually all of the great rock and roll icons of the '50s, '60s and '70s started out.

[nobby]

A manager I used to work with divided venue owners into two classes, "food and beverage men" and "promoters." He considered the former to be "scum" who one should avoid doing business with at all costs because they were using music to sell drinks. "Promoters" were selling an entertainment experience.

So how can we encourage promoters? Are there venues people can rent for a reasonable charge? How about non-drinking venues teens can have access to?

Is it really hopeless?

How do we scale things down so the numbers work?

I refuse to use the word "hopeless" to describe the local music scene. Challenging? Yes. Prepare for a tough slog if you're an original act.

A couple of local bands got their start at a local alcohol free venue (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=85197412) and went on to become famous.

The most innovative approach was taken by a club that was the gem of the local music scene, The Downtown. I actually became depressed when they closed a couple of years ago, and many other felt the same.

It was a beautiful club with good acoustics, professional FOH and a good location. Artists that could no longer fill the larger venues, (Leon Russel and Johnny Winter come to mind) as well as up and coming signed acts from as far away as Australia would come to play there.

They had an unusual, if not unique, system for accommodating teenagers as well as older fans; they proofed patrons at the door and had 2 different stamps they'd put on people's wrists, 2 different colors -- one for 21 and over, and one for 20 and younger. This allowed them to sell alcohol, yet let kids as young as 16 into the place. The smoking ban didn't hurt it; there'd be a crowd of people smoking outside, they'd just hang out for a few minutes, finish their cigarettes and go back in.

The kicker was that they had "open stage night" once a week. They had a Marshall, a Hartke bass amp, a Korg Triton keyboard and a good Tama (I think) drum set on the stage, and a bunch of bands would come up and play 2 songs apiece. A couple of bands even came from out of state just to showcase their 2 songs.

While it's sad that that venue is closed, when one door shuts, another opens. There's a new place that opened 7 months ago, is right near a train station, and claims to feature original as well as cover bands. This could be a place where unsigned acts could get their foot in the door.

Another venue that had an open stage night that had closed, reopened.

A renovated local theatre turned their lobby into a venue for original local music (http://www.patchoguetheatre.com/lobby.htm)once a month, and appears to on the way to expanding the series to twice a month due to the demand...

And that is the key. If we want promoters to be successful and we want more of them, we need to help them do their job. Artists/ bands tell everyone they know to come to the show, fans tell friends about it and sell them on the benefits of showing up, applauding, and spending some money. Step away from the tv and computer and get out there.

We need to support venues that feature original music and, in effect, promote the promoters.

[radiationroom]

I think too much "Christian" music defines itself by what it is not and preaches to the choir rather than creating compelling entertainment that will inspire anybody who hears it including the secular market.

AYE-MEN!!!

I have the same problem with most self-proclaimed "indi." music. Holier than thou and indier than thou are closely related elitist self-indulgences.

99% of the unsigned music I have recieved as promo material for my various radio shows over the years was (to paraphrase Frank Zappa) fermenting bovine rectal ejectamenta. The availability of cheap recording hardware has done everything except increase the talent pool or the number of compelling entertainment experiences.

To me there are also sound-alike bands and then there are original bands who play mostly covers. The latter is work young folks out to be pursuing so that they can learn how to create material that is as good as the songs they cover. This was how virtually all of the great rock and roll icons of the '50s, '60s and '70s started out.

A few years ago there was a twangy-as-sticks country band who was popular in my area, and they frequently played Led Zepplin songs in their own unique way, including the best coverband rendition of "Stairway To Heaven" I've ever heard. Unfortunately, they broke up TTBOMK.

[radiationroom]

Are there venues people can rent for a reasonable charge?

In my area, no, in large part due to insurance costs. Having to post what is IMO an obscene amount of money as an insurance bond just to rent a firehall is my number one obsticle in staging shows. NOW A ? 4 U - Could the obscene insurance deposit be the mechanism the fire halls are using to deny music shows the use of their facilities? Certainly one would think one night's worth of insurance on a bar would be higher than the same time peroid on a firehall, yet the escrow bond depost on the fire hall alone is twenty times the bar rental quote posted at the top of this thread. And the bond deposit does not include the hall rental or the actual insurance premium payment on the fire hall show, which is a whopping five grand on top of the twenty grand escrow bond deposit! :Mad:

How about non-drinking venues teens can have access to?

Been there done that. The primary obsticle to opening a youth-oriented establishment outside religious circles is dealing with codes/zoning officials and law enforcement. I was associated with a nightclub in downtown York PA from 1985 to 1998, and who was elected to the mayor's orifice determined whether or not doing business downtown was pleasant or miserable. Local officials, both elected and bureaucratic can make your life hell if they don't want you around. Just ask Donald Klunk (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:e-3IW-Syv3wJ:www.lowerwindsor.com/dept/ZoningMinutes/2006/June_15_2006.pdf+donald+klunk+cashmere+nightclub&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us), who attempted to open a "Men's Social Club" in suburban York County PA. His Cashmere's Social Club is just another in a long line of nightclub style entertainment venues that has been forced out of business by local authorities in my area. While Mr. Klunk's facility is exceptional due to the fact that it's focus was strip shows, Cashmere's was closed up with the same fire and zeal that sealed the fate of several non-alcolholic and under-21 clubs that attempted to open in my area over the past few years.

Is it really hopeless?

From my viewpoint, yes. Which is why I view (small "C") christian music as well as the college campus circuit as being the best avenues to stage live music in the current market.

How do we scale things down so the numbers work?

Like I said elsewhere in this thread, help me find 50 people who are willing to put up ten grand a piece and we can make a go of it. In today's market, I figure that it would take a half-million to open a venue with decent decor and decent tech. A third of that price tag goes to the purchase of a vomit... OOPS! I meant to say "liquor" license. :Mad:

[Swafford]

Did I mention we got a raise in our base guarantee at the original clubs we play in? Have i mentioned in Cincinnati, for the price of the sound man, you can stage and promote shows in places as various as the two rooms at the Southgate House (one of Pollstars top 40 venues) one with a 600 seat capacity and the other with 75 - the Southgate will provide the lubricants, the bartenders, the advertising, the doorman (a slight percentage of the door goes to him/her), security, sound, you get 94% of the door, 100% of merch, a slamming sound system all in a cool as fucking hell venue? That I can bring in out of town, under the radar acts and give them a guarantee in at least 4 venues in town raning from straight up rock clubs to holier then thou indie clubs to coffeehouses? What's the catch - you can't be a douchebag or a moron, this towns to small and you'll get raked savagely.

While live, original music is not thriving, it certainly is not dying.

[Rosstapher]

I think too much "Christian" music defines itself by what it is not and preaches to the choir rather than creating compelling entertainment that will inspire anybody who hears it including the secular market.

Not to get "holier-than-thou" about this, (although I partially agree with that statement) I am sort of under the impression that "Christian" music's main purpose is to praise God - if it also creates a "compelling entertainment" experience, then that's a bonus.

Plus, I guess a lot depends on whether the artists/producers/etc. are actually Christians - as opposed to simply creating something else to sell.

I don't think I get "indie" at all. What exactly defines "indie"? Is "indie" country a separate thing than "indie" punk? Or is it all just "indie"? :Roll eyes:

[radiationroom]

Did I mention we got a raise in our base guarantee at the original clubs we play in?

You are in Cincinnati, which along with Austin are part of a small coterie of oasis in America where one can actually make a living doing music. Most of us are not that lucky.

An old business associate of mine lives in western Mass, and he sez the scene there is just as dead as it is here, unless your idea of live music is a karaoke show. If he wants to see a concert, he needs to drive either to Boston, Albany, Hartford, or NYC. FWIH the situation where he lives is typical for most parts of the country.

[Bob Olhsson]

...While live, original music is not thriving, it certainly is not dying.So HOW exactly do we make this happen elsewhere? What is the history of these venues and who are the patrons?

Where are the other towns where this is really happening as opposed to just being mythology when you start looking closely? My friends in Austin have told me that scene has been way over-hyped. Seattle was interesting in that people really were earning a living playing original music there for around ten years before the grunge craze hit. Lots of them were friends who had lived in San Francisco during the early '70s.

[Rosstapher]

You are in Cincinnati, which along with Austin are part of a small coterie of oasis in America where one can actually make a living doing music. Most of us are not that lucky.

You mean York is not the new Nashville?

:Twisted:

[radiationroom]

I am sort of under the impression that "Christian" music's main purpose is to praise God - if it also creates a "compelling entertainment" experience, then that's a bonus.

Plus, I guess a lot depends on whether the artists/producers/etc. are actually Christians - as opposed to simply creating something else to sell.

Christian music is a business, just any other entertainment business, except that because of it's religious orientation it is easy for 2nd rate talent to make a career in it and it is even easier for schister mafia weasle scum (http://www.patrobertson.com/) to promote. I'd much rather work with so-called "secular" acts because I'd rather put my all into a 2nd rate act that succeeds or fails on its own merits than work with 2nd rate act that succeeds due factors that have nothing to do with the abilities of the musicians or the merits of the art that is being created.

Plus the fact that I really like working with 1st rate talent which Christian music is sorely lacking. Give me a U2 or Steve Taylor or Mad At The World and not only would I be booking them for church groups, but I'd be putting them in bars and on college campusus as well.

[nobby]

99% of the unsigned music I have recieved as promo material for my various radio shows over the years was (to paraphrase Frank Zappa) fermenting bovine rectal ejectamenta. The availability of cheap recording hardware has done everything except increase the talent pool or the number of compelling entertainment experiences.


Yep, and the same applies for unsigned acts playing original or "original" material who want to play out. It's the analog version of search engine noise.

That makes it tougher for the 1% that don't masticate Rattus norvegicus penis to find a place to play, that and they don't have the coattails of popular superstar acts to ride in on.

In my area there's an audience for everything though, it's a matter of connecting.

[radiationroom]

You mean York is not the new Nashville?

The people who live in Nashville have full sets of teeth and a new set of inlaws on their 2nd and 3rd marrages. :Twisted: And in Nashville, the working girls are named something other than "Betsy".... :icon_eek:

http://jackson.ifas.ufl.edu/mad_cow_cartoon.jpg
caption - Madam Heffer: York Pennsylvania's version of Heidi Fleiss

****EDIT - ADDITIONAL COMMENT****

....and here I go from mentioning that I am getting serious about becoming an ordained minister to making redneck jokes that include having marital relations with farm animals.... ....It's like Emo Phillips' skit about going into the church confession booth. "Forgive me father, I am only here to develop film...."

[Rosstapher]

Christian music is a business, just any other entertainment business, except that because of it's religious orientation it is easy for 2nd rate talent to make a career in it and it is even easier for schister mafia weasle scum (http://www.patrobertson.com/) to promote. I'd much rather work with so-called "secular" acts because I'd rather put my all into a 2nd rate act that succeeds or fails on its own merits than work with 2nd rate act that succeeds due factors that have nothing to do with the abilities of the musicians or the merits of the art that is being created.

Plus the fact that I really like working with 1st rate talent which Christian music is sorely lacking. Give me a U2 or Steve Taylor or Mad At The World and not only would I be booking them for church groups, but I'd be putting them in bars and on college campusus as well.

:Thumbsup:
Although I think there's plenty of 2nd rate talent in just about ALL genres. It may be more noticeable in Christian music because the powers-that-be on the "biz" side have decided that their biggest market is the "safe, vanilla flavored variety" of Christian tunes/bands. I'm not sure "Christian" and "Edgey" or "Unique" have traditionally been best pals. I know most Methodist churches (the traditional ones) are still singing the same old Charles Wesley hymms - UUGGGHHH!!!! If you had told me 10 years ago that I would be playing rock style music with full band and PA in church, I would have said "doubtful". Meaning that it's a relatively young "genre". So maybe there's some hope for some 1st rate Christian talent if it continues to increase in popularity so the "biz" side makes it financially viable (I'm guessing that Jars of Clay don't go all over the place touring for free - and I don't know if they are 1st or 2nd rate). I am pretty impressed with the Willet brothers (not 2nd rate at all IMHO), but even most "hipper" Christian congregations would probably cringe at their live show (they rock pretty freakin' hard!). But they're getting a positive message out to the kids and I certainly can respect that. If the 2nd rater is in the game for the right reasons and works hard enough, they will eventually become the 1st rater (well, maybe not always). I'd rather work with a 1st rater, too, but I'll happily work with the 2nd rater who's giving 200%! Even if they are Christian. :)

I wouldn't work with them in York, though.




























kidding :grin:

[Rosstapher]

In my area there's an audience for everything though, it's a matter of connecting.

I'm sure it's easier in more populated areas. We've seen some attemps at some of the venues/ideas you mentoned earlier. Great ideas, but they never seem to be able to survive financially without the alcohol sales. I would LOVE to open a all-ages venue with good PA and cater to original music. I just don't see it being able to break even. I do think the "once or twice a month in the old movie theater" idea is cool. I even have a old theater in mind!:Thumbsup:

[ggunn]

So HOW exactly do we make this happen elsewhere? What is the history of these venues and who are the patrons?

Where are the other towns where this is really happening as opposed to just being mythology when you start looking closely? My friends in Austin have told me that scene has been way over-hyped. Seattle was interesting in that people really were earning a living playing original music there for around ten years before the grunge craze hit. Lots of them were friends who had lived in San Francisco during the early '70s.

The thing about Austin is that although there are many places to perform original music here, there is also a glut of musicians willing to play for "the exposure" <insert maniacal laughter>. Making a living in music here is possible, I guess, but I have no plans to quit my day job any time soon. The only band I have been in here that made any significant money (enough to pay for some new toy...., er, I mean tools) was a cover band playing weddings and corporate parties.

It is true, though, that a great many (maybe even the majority) of the music venues in Austin cater to original music over covers. We are fortunate to have a whole lot of folks here who enjoy going out to hear original music, even if a significant portion of them are themselves in their own original bands. ;^)

[Swafford]

You are in Cincinnati, which along with Austin are part of a small coterie of oasis in America where one can actually make a living doing music. Most of us are not that lucky.

An old business associate of mine lives in western Mass, and he sez the scene there is just as dead as it is here, unless your idea of live music is a karaoke show. If he wants to see a concert, he needs to drive either to Boston, Albany, Hartford, or NYC. FWIH the situation where he lives is typical for most parts of the country.

What about Northampton, that Mecca of Lesbian folk music and singer/songwriters and Dinosaur Jr. When I lived there (geez...has it been 17 years?) there were at least 3 decent clubs booking local and touring talent and a handful of coffeehouses - and that didn't include Amherst, Greenfield, Brattleboro or Worcester, all places I played regularly, till they ran me out of New England for being a foul mouth, punk rock strumming misogynist.

[Swafford]

So HOW exactly do we make this happen elsewhere? What is the history of these venues and who are the patrons?

Where are the other towns where this is really happening as opposed to just being mythology when you start looking closely? My friends in Austin have told me that scene has been way over-hyped. Seattle was interesting in that people really were earning a living playing original music there for around ten years before the grunge craze hit. Lots of them were friends who had lived in San Francisco during the early '70s.

I don't know how you go about replicating it elsewhere, and I don't really think it's just Cincinnati that has a bar/club scene that enables you to at least take something home at the end of the night. Black Mountain, Asheville, Knoxville, Raleigh/Chapel Hill, Charlotte - these are all places we were playing regularly before gas prices made it impossible to break even, but that didn't kill the local scenes. I can guarantee you there's a show at Sadlacks or the Cave or The Town Pump or Preservation Pub tonight and the band will be playing original music and will be getting paid something at the end of the night and the owner and staff will appreciate that the music was there.

The common thread of original clubs/bars in Cincinnati is owners who are using alcohol to attract people to come see music and making sure the music at the very least never causes people to leave. There are very few places in Cincinnati that have local music and a cover charge. They are almost all no cover, base guarantees, free beer, more money if the bar does better then usual that night. The Southgate House I'm sure is an exception and the history of that joint is long, complicated and involves people who REALLY believe in the DIY ethic, but the others have realized a business model that works for bars, musicians and patrons. Patrons are mostly 20-30 somethings - white, black, gay and straight, office workers and freaks. A smattering of guys and gals like me whose freak never left their bodies even as their bodies have assumed the appearances of their parents.