Museum quality guitars

[Goes211]

I've been known to own too many guitars. Yet, while I've bought some guitars on a whim, if they don't get used (because I don't fall in love with them for some reason) I sell them.

A good friend of mine (with much deeper pockets) has been buying guitars as an investment for some years. I was kinda 'guiding' him through the minefield for some time, but over the years his expertise has become quite impressive, even though it's a collector's and not a player's expertise. What year did the dots go from close to wide, when did the pickguard have a screw here and not there...that kind of shit.

Ever since 5 or 6 years ago, he could easily make 20% profit within a year on a guitar. That's quite a safe return on investment. Every year for the last 10 years I've heard "the bottom's gonna drop out !" Yeah right.
Over the last 2 years, prices have gone crazy.
He's currently selling two vintage strats, for about 30K each.
A guitar in mint condition (without any consideration for it's playability, purely based on all its parts being original and in good cosmetic condition) was up to recently labelled 'collector' or 'investment grade'.
My friend has pointed out to me a term he's beginning to see more and more often in those circles : 'museum quality'.

I'm not starting a debate or anything...I can see the business acumen in considering it simply as an investment. A lot of these 'museum quality' guitars (I've played MANY of his guitars) are not the best players anyway.

Yet, I find it sad to see a lot of these instruments being on the market almost exclusively for speculation, with the rest of them being stored in collections. But we must all remember that while a great instrument can be superbly inspirational, it's no substitute for talent and putting in hours of gigging and/or practice. Ask yourself if any of the guitar-heroes would play like crap on a mexican strat.

My friend (who's a hell of a great human being, btw) hardly plays a note.

[Tim Armstrong]

A great way to start a flamewar on a lot of guitar bulletin boards is to post about "Collectors vs. Players".

Me, I'm delighted that my Beloved 1966 Telecaster has changed pickups, pickguard, tuners and a refin, because I was actually able to afford it when I bought it in 1995 (and I bought it not because it was even partially "vintage", but because it's the best damn electric guitar I've ever played). Of course now, with the explosion of the vintage guitar market, it's worth at least three times what I paid for it...

I kinda dig old stuff, but I don't get a stiffy just because a guitar is vintage. I own three amazing electric guitars. Two of them are vintage (the other is an all-original 1968 Guild Starfire III) and one is a recently bought $99 Epiphone Les Paul Junior (with a P-90) made in Indonesia. If the guitar feels good in my hand and sounds good when I play it, that's all that matters to me!

Which is not to say I don't wish I had the guitars and amps of my youth, which were merely "used" then, but now "vintage" and worth a whole heck of a lot more than I either paid or was paid for them!

Cheers, Tim

[crunch]

Ha!

:lol:

This entire subject kills me. Yeah, Goes & Tarmadillo, I know a quite a few guys who are absolute music fanatics who can barely bust out a G chord (with some exceptions), but own very, very vintage Fenders and Gibsons... I'm not sure if it's a travesty of rock or not...

A few of my closer buddies will often offer to have me play them out on a show (I haven't played out in about a year or so), and my typical reaction is "No, no, it's too nice, imagine it being bathed in beer and sweat...) and while that's partially true, I don't wanna be responsible for someone's vintage axe BUT I've also found that many of these vintage guitars need a lot of love; they can't really take being played for an entire song, let alone an hour and half set without falling to pieces; mostly they need better keys and fret dressing, as well as bridge work, saddle dressing and strobing, and I play with straplocks so I don't wanna risk "rocking out and acting the fool" with someone's pre-cbs strat or LP goldtop...

Sure, maybe in a studio environment, which means it will likely need neck adjustments and strobed, but even then that's a lot of extra time and expense when I've still got 10 electrics here, of which I mainly play 3 of them...

Maybe some of these older guitars that are owned by collectors ARE better off being hung on a wall... It's still kind of a waste, but with all of the work most of these need to be truly playable by today's standards, they would quickly lose a bit of their vintage value... My main guitars are my "heavier than a fucking boulder" '83 LP, a '05 ES-137 and my beatup late 70's strat that has truly been raped by some idiot with a router, and frankly, while I really like these guitars (the strat is on it's 3rd refretting), I wouldn't die if one got destroyed beyond repair; they're replaceable.

Also, with the new rules for baggage in US airports, I would never check in a guitar of serious value to an airline (not that I like to fly anyway). Let the collectors spend the money on these (it's very rare! don't touch it! don't even look at it! - nigel tufnel), give me a guitar that can stay in tune, play great and sound like the name on the headstock.

Museum Quality = Guitar needs a setup and someone a lot more dainty than myself to play it...

Anyway Goes, what's your main guitar these days anyway?

[McAllister]

I was at the guitar show in Dallas a couple of months ago. $65k for a nice '55 Strat was common (if you could find one). '58 Les Paul goldtops: $150k; a bust over $300k. No shit. I have a close aquaintance who owns a few VERY high dollar guitars. Thankfully, he plays, jams, and records with them (I don't think they will ever be near a stage again).

I think it's basic economics. There are a limited amount of them, and a lot of people want them.

Me, I just wanna play the fucking thing and not stress if it gets knocked over, right?

M

[emtou2u]

What are the thoughts on 'new' collector item's such as Martin's Eric Clapton, Johnny Cash, etc. models - especially signed when they are deceased.

Anyone know anything about the sound on these?

[Goes211]

Anyway Goes, what's your main guitar these days anyway?

My 'number 1' :lol: is a 1960 strat.
It doesn't have the vintage value because the previous owner had it sent back for a factory refin in Candy Apple Red, which was only available in 1964 at the earliest (I can't believe I know this shit :lol: ) But it's a 1960 body, neck and PU's, it plays and sounds like a dream (that is, if you like a man's guitar and baseball bat necks) and it looks really cool. It also had an extra switch at some point so while all the electronics are original the soldering is not in 'collector grade' anymore :Twisted:
But even so it's worth too much money to take out to a gig where you have to leave it without having an eye on it at all times.
So I gig with a very good Custom Shop Relic. It's almost as good as the 60, and while it's not exactly cheap I won't kill myself should something happen to it.

Other favourites are a 73 LP Deluxe Goldtop retrofitted with P90's (weighs a fucking ton), a 69 Tele (custom , with binding) I bought dirt cheap but it's beat like hell and has Seymour Duncans these days, and a regular 71 Tele.

Then there's also a 70 Thinline Tele, a 63 Jaguar, a 63 Jazzmaster, a 66 Mustang, a Strat 57 re-issue, a Standard LP, an SG, an ES-335, a flying V, a couple Rickies (360 & John Lennon), a Gretsch 6120, a PRS with P90s, a Kritz (belgian luthier) with P90s, a Gibson Sheryl Crow acoustic, a Taylor acoustic and a 77 Jazz bass currently being nursed by Malice.


:Coolio:

[Cosmic Pig]

I have a collection of vintage hammers that I'll bring out every once in a while to pound a nail. Strangely they feel the same as regular hammers.

Cosmic Wifey bought this '66 Jazz new and still plays it at every gig. The frets are so worn it's a fretless in some places. Probably not worth much but the mojo is heavy and lots of players have said it's the most comfy bass they ever played.

http://members.shaw.ca/helenduguay/gallery/studio2.jpg

Cos.

[MudCat]

...

Then there's also a 70 Thinline Tele, a 63 Jaguar, a 63 Jazzmaster, a 66 Mustang, a Strat 57 re-issue, a Standard LP, an SG, an ES-335, a flying V, a couple Rickies (360 & John Lennon), a Gretsch 6120, a PRS with P90s, a Kritz (belgian luthier) with P90s, a Gibson Sheryl Crow acoustic, a Taylor acoustic and a 77 Jazz bass currently being nursed by Malice.


:Coolio:


Go ahead....rub it in.....rub it in....You know, Goes, Christmas is comin up, and if you need any gift-giving suggestions, well.....







:Wink:

[crunch]

This is just a great topic.

"the soldering is not in 'collector grade' anymore"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

GAWD, these people fucking kill me. $150 large for a fucking gold top? If I can't sweat on it and coax some serious tones out of it, it's merely artwork; eye candy. What's the point? Greed? I think Hendrix would be horrified to witness this shit...

I think it's infinitely more beautiful to hear someone coax some wonderous tones out of a $1200 pawnshop Gibson they scratched and clawed to get than to look at even the rarest of guitars. It's like going to the Austin record convention, this guy has just bought all this awesome rare old BB King, some Miles and some Coltrane, and I'm like "So, I bet you can't WAIT to get those back home and play them, huh?" and his reaction is "PLAY them? What are you crazy, that could damage them"... And he acts all snooty... Like music isn't for sharing...

And Goes. My man. You need to cut down on yer guitar collection, may I suggest mailing that jag over this way?

:D

[nobby]

Personally, I like guitars I can actually play. I've played some great vintage guitars, but it seems collectors are afraid that anything they do to their instrument is going to hurt it's value as a collectable. And I'd be nervous using an axe worth 6 figures, even if it's insured.

I was at a Banjo Center a while back, and a guy had bought a Neumann U47 there, which he had brought back for repair. He went on and on with the sales dude about how, if the mic was repaired by BLUE (or whomever, I can't remember) it was no longer the mic that the Beatles used since it had new components.

Meanwhile, Paul McCartney will sound more like Paul McCartney through a brand new SM58...

This guy wasn't a musician, he was a doctor.

Anyway, no skin off my chin if people see instruments as an investment or a nostalgia thing, I just want something I can use.

The guy that works on my amps has Telefunken tubes that he won't even take out of the box. Won't sell them, won't power them up. I confess that I don't get it.

[nobby]

I think it's infinitely more beautiful to hear someone coax some wonderous tones out of a $1200 pawnshop Gibson they scratched and clawed to get than to look at even the rarest of guitars.

Tell it, brother, TELL IT!!

[PRobb]

We are talking about great musical instruments. I think it's sad that the crazy money is taking them out of the hands of musicians. A '58 gold top should be making music, not sitting in a case appreciating. Also, the "whatever quality" guitars don't sound as good as the beat up ones. The beat up ones have been played. And playing affects the guitar's tone.

I have a 1956 D-18 that someone at some point in it's life gave an absolutely awful refinish to the back. I thank him every day because if it had been mint, I never would have been able to afford it. And it might be the best accoustic I have ever heard.

[eagan]

I'm another one of those guys who just rolls their eyes at this whole phenomenon, and, yeah, you can really start a raging discussion on some web boards.

Sure, there have been some guitars that have turned out to be a notch above others, even among the same model, more or less, from different periods. But the difference in market value has gotten wildly disproportional. Just insane. All because of a growth of fetishes combined with "investment/speculation" collectors.

Get into things like people not wanting guitars that have had their completely worn out and trashed tuning machines and pots and such replaced, because it's now not "original/collectable", and it's just fucking idiotic. And I just want to smack the people that drive the hell out of prices because of collector's mentality, to the point where everyday musicians can't touch certain things, while they all end up in little informal private museums or, even worse, locked away completely somewhere.

It's just out of control.

They're instruments. In the end, they're just tools. If it sounds good, plays well, is fully and properly functioning, cool. Myself, I don't even really give a shit about the looks, unless it's something that just really looks stupid to me. There are aspects to guitars that come down to a certain personal relationship and comfort factor for people, just by the nature of what they are and how they're played. Like Cosmic Pig's wife's bass for example. But that's a matter of something working for you. Not "oh, I must not touch that, because it will affect the market value!".

A musical instrument not having an existence revolving around being used to make music is just an obscene waste.


JLE

[graymc]

Ed Roman has some interesting things to say about the vintage craze:

http://www.edromanguitars.com/rant/vintage.htm

[Droolbucket]

Most of my guitars and amps are older than my wife, something she finds amusing. Luckily, my old guitars were trashed or hacked when I found them, so I had no qualms about replacing bridges, pickups, tuners, etc. For me, cool guitars still have that magic aura that attracted me in the first place, so I won't buy and sell instruments for profit. I'm not knocking those who do, but they're businessmen and I'm just a lowly musician.
This doesn't mean I'll sell my stuff cheap, it just means I don't buy a guitar specifically to turn a profit. I buy 'em to play. I firmly believe guitars were made to be PLAYED, and the best way to relic a guitar is to play it passionately for 30 years. I tend to walk past the rows of nice new guitars and head for the old, beat-up, sweat-stained, cigarette burned, finish-worn-off guitars back in the corner... those were the guitars that inspired somebody to PLAY!
Having said all that, I believe we're in the middle of a golden age for guitar players. Just about any guitar you pick up has a decent fret job, decent tuners, adequate pickups, and plays well. Most of us could grab any 200 dollar guitar off the rack and play a gig with it that night. Back in the day, guitars were a lot more inconsistent... some had the strings going off the side of the neck, some had squeally microphonic pickups, some had tuners that slipped so badly you had to retune after every song, and some necks that were so warped or twisted they were unplayable. Today, anyone with a screwdriver and a soldering iron can put together their own dream guitar. For those who set their sights a little higher, they can get an artist like Gabe here to custom build a world-class instrument for a whole lot less than that '59 Burst.
I had a guy bring me a '53 Tele, and wanted to know what it was worth. I gave him a ballpark figure so he wouldn't get shafted, and sent him off. My buddies asked me why I didn't buy it myself, and I said basically it was a dog. It needed a new nut, a fret level, new tuners, and a new tone cap at the least. The tone control went from muffled to muddy. It had all the resonance of a concrete block, and was completely uninspiring. For an investment piece, it was worth a lot of money. For a player, it was terrible.
For what it's worth, my main 3 electrics are a '66 Tele with a middle strat pickup, a Glaser B-bender, locking tuners, a refret and re-finish; a 1966 Gibson Melody Maker that's had about every pickup combination possible over the years, and a recent 7/8 scale Warmoth parts strat that is the most comfortable guitar I've ever played. I've got a few others lying around, but those 3 are the go-to guitars.
I can sound godawful on any one of them at any given time!

Droolbucket

[G. Hoffman]

I hate to say this, but some of those guitars really are worth it. We've got a customer with a 1934 D-28 (which was the first year they made a 14 fret drednaught). We appraised it recently at $75-80,000. As silly as that sounds, if I had that kind of money, I would pay it in a heartbeat. That guitar really does sound THAT good. It's a little bit beat up (nothing surprising on a 70 year old guitar), and it has had a fair bit of work (done by us, however, and high quality repair work actually improves the value; one of the good things about vintage acoustics - they are worth more if they are in good repair; i.e., a neck reset on a 1934 guitar is not a bad thing).

Now, not all vintage guitars sound that good, and I wish that there was some way to have the values based on the sound of the guitar, but sound is just so personal. There are a lot, and I mean a LOT of vintage guitars which are not even kind of worth the money. But some of them, just, damn. NICE!

On a related note, the Wall Street Journal recently had an article about the vintage guitar market, and one of the things they said is that for the last few years there is no better investment than really great vintage guitars, as long as you are dealing with the ones which are desirable. That `34 D28 I was talking about? Well, we did an appraisal of it 2 years ago and it was $40,000. And of course, the guys dad bought it new (and made his living with it - he was a radio cowboy in North Dakota; it really is one of the coolest stories to come through our shop in our last 35 years) for less than $100 in 1934. No matter how you slice it, that's a damn good investment. The guy has absolutely not plan to sell the guitar, as the family history behind it is just too important. And yes, he does play it, and even brings it to flatpicking jam seasons, though I don't think he gigs with it.


Gabriel

[malice]

Cosmic Wifey bought this '66 Jazz new and still plays it at every gig. The frets are so worn it's a fretless in some places. Probably not worth much but the mojo is heavy and lots of players have said it's the most comfy bass they ever played.

http://members.shaw.ca/helenduguay/gallery/studio2.jpg

Cos.

I have to quote this so I can lurk a bit more.

Not Cosmic's wife you idiots,

The beautiful thing she's holding in her hands, the work of art ...


malice

[malice]

On the other hand, I have this baby that Goes211 is lending to me for as long as I want. That is how Goes is with his friends.
I just helped him a little, and he brings me this other beauty to look after.


http://womb.mixerman.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=633&stc=1&d=1166522570


It's about 10 years younger than Cosmic's toy (the bass, not the ...whatever)

It's a man's bass, more rockish than earlier JazzBass, a bit half way between a 66 JB and a precision.

More deep, less speedy. More Bernard Edwards, less Jaco.

Amazing bass. Thank you my friend.

malice

[Comte de St Germain]

Here at the shop we play all the guitars, in fact jut last night I was framming on the 1968 Eko 400v with the crazy bowling ball finish.

I do agree that most "minty" guitars are shitty sounding and/or playing.

My 58 strat looks like it's been through two world wars yet sounds and plays incredible. In fact, it already knows the songs.

The 59 Les Paul was rocking out last night, along with a prototype Futura and an old timey hand made BC Rich. Love that Vari-tone...

Now if I can just finish building that Telecaster.

[Droolbucket]

I do have a "one that got away" story... I went to an estate sale many years ago. An older gentleman was selling his father's instruments. Apparently, his father was a talented multi-instrumentalist, but none of his kids showed any musical aptitude, so eventually the collection was sold. By the time I heard about it, most of the stuff was gone.
He had a Lloyd Loar-era Gibson mandolin there. It wasn't one of the expensive ones...it had a teardrop body shape and a round soundhole. On the label inside a repairman had hand-written a repair note (in 1927!). I'm not a mandolin player, but I picked it up, figured out a couple of chords, and this little mandolin just rang out. Filled the room. For whatever reason, this thing had a fantastic sound, full and extremely harmonically rich. I wanted to buy it, but talked myself out of it. After all, I didn't know how to play it, and if I learned, I would be afraid to play it out anyway.

I still dream about that tone sometimes. Never heard another one like it.

Droolbucket

[Mixerpuppet]

If a Stradivarius Violin sounded and played like ass not a single violinist would buy it...

A rare instrument is one that combines beauty, playiblility and tonal characteristics.

Everything else is just parts...

[62Jazzbass]

On a related note, the Wall Street Journal recently had an article about the vintage guitar market, and one of the things they said is that for the last few years there is no better investment than really great vintage guitars, as long as you are dealing with the ones which are desirable.
Gabriel

So the 52 LP Goldtop I could have nabbed in '87 for $1,400 would have been a wise investment then?:Roll eyes:

[G. Hoffman]

So the 52 LP Goldtop I could have nabbed in '87 for $1,400 would have been a wise investment then?:Roll eyes:



Yup, `fraid so.



Gabriel

[omikl]

Yeah, not to mention the '62 Fiesta Red Tele I could have got in '78 for 150 quid. Mind you, it has already been modded. Someone had bodged a Les Paul switchinto the slot on the control plate. Presumably they couldn't find a Fender replacement for the broken original, or more likely didn't realise that when a Tele switch conks out it just needs some vodka pouring in it followed by a few fast flicks to clean it up :D

Me? I have Thirty-eight guitars, last time I counted. None of them are remotely collectable apart from maybe my '74 Ibanez Moderne copy, and that's had a hard life since I bought it new in perference to the above Tele...

[Les Ismore]

When I was young I bought for $15 what turned out to be a prototype Rickenbaker Frying Pan lap steel. I actually bought it for the case which fit my little banjo I had at the time.
It turns out it was one of the first 5 electric instruments. I gave it away and I don't even remember who I gave it to. (I was a hippy kid and used to give everything away).
It didn't even have a jack, it had two little posts to connect the wires to. (Rickenbacker started the 1/4 jack standard on the production versions of this model). All other electric instruments are descendants of this instrument.

Hmmmm, I wonder what that would have been worth now?

(Duhh which way did I go?)

I've done some stupid things in my life, but this one always stands out in my mind.

[PRobb]

When I was young I bought for $15 what turned out to be a prototype Rickenbaker Frying Pan lap steel. I actually bought it for the case which fit my little banjo I had at the time.
It turns out it was one of the first 5 electric instruments. I gave it away and I don't even remember who I gave it to. (I was a hippy kid and used to give everything away).
It didn't even have a jack, it had two little posts to connect the wires to. (Rickenbacker started the 1/4 jack standard on the production versions of this model). All other electric instruments are descendants of this instrument.

Hmmmm, I wonder what that would have been worth now?

(Duhh which way did I go?)

I've done some stupid things in my life, but this one always stands out in my mind.

D'OH