Neumann TLM67

[malice]

It's supposed to be a U67, but without tube, and without transformer ...

WTF ?????,

Incidently, I had an heated discussion in another forum with a purple layout.

One of the posters seemed to think that ditching the transfo was a good idea.

Where is that quote again ...hmmmmm....ahem

Transformers have a lot of problems and ditching them seems to be a good idea. John Willett


interesting take.

I was wondering what is your call on transformless LDC design for vocal. Doesn't seem to be very popular in the history of music recording...

I mean, I did try them almost all TLMs etc, some are nice mikes, but rarely my first choice for vocal recording and many other apps.

Do you guys have a sleeper transformerless LDC you would like to talk about while we wait for that new Neumann paradygm ?

discuss

malice

[Starfucker]

I have to agree with John Willett on this one

http://www.stuffwelike.com/stuffwelike/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/transformersguy2.jpg

[Goes211]

I have to agree with John Willett on this one

It's a hell of a job :

[otek]

Most great vocal mics seem to feature them.

There are transformerless mics I do like, such as the Milab VIP-50, the AKG 414 TL-II or the Neumann TLM-170. Though out of those three the Milab is probably the only on that gets picked for vocals with any regularity.

There are certainly problems always cited by transformer opponents - such as low frequency distortion and phase shift. Personally, I tend to listen with a far less technical ear, and transformer mics seem to win a lot of times.

I happened upon this article (http://www.dpamicrophones.com/Images/DM02565.pdf) for those interested in reading more about transformer vs. transformerless. Given that it's issued by DPA, there is a certain bias, but well worth reading nonetheless. :)


otek

[malice]

That said, who knows ...

It might as well be a good mike. Who knows ...

Stil, I don't get this marketing concept of trying to mislead customers into the crazy idea it's going to be remotly the same think as a genuine U67.


I'm afraid that since this company has joined Seinheiser, it's not exactly the same company and the same quality of product.

The thing is this : a good transformer such as the original U67's costs the price of any of the new TLM line in parts.

I just don't get the concept of claiming something like : "transformers were problematic, we can do without with the same sound, it's gonna be better."

while everyone understands that the point is to lower the price and standarts of building.

Don't get me wrong, I do think transformerless mike can be usefull, but I cannot really think of a stellar TLM that I would put in my top 10 vocal LDC mike right now, and I still doubt it is going to change.

Now I'm all for them to prove me wrong.

malice

[shikawkee]

I'd still like to hear it first before I make any judgments.
Transformerless can be good too in many cases. It just
depends on the source and what type of music you're recording.

[malice]

I'd still like to hear it first before I make any judgments.

Sure, way to go ...

it's just the name that is a bit puzzling

K67 capsule, no tube, no transformer ...

That mike exists for a long time.

It's call a U77.

Not a bad mike.

Does not give a hard on like a mint U67 though, that might explain the marketing decision :D

Beginning to get my point ?

:D

malice

[shikawkee]

Does not give a hard on like a mint U67 though, that might explain the marketing decision :D

Beginning to get my point ?

:D

malice

Indeed. But hopefully it'll still be better than
all the crappy new condensers I hear everyone raving about.
Almost all of them are spitty as hell. I'd love to hear the mixes
of songs that have stacked tracks using those mics. Then again, maybe not.:D

[otek]

Indeed. But hopefully it'll still be better than all the crappy new condensers I hear everyone raving about.
Almost all of them are spitty as hell.


Then again, a TLM 147 is pretty spitty compared to an U-47, too. :D


otek

[malice]

Indeed. But hopefully it'll still be better than
all the crappy new condensers I hear everyone raving about.

I can see your point there, you mean the ones that claims to be top notch and are made in a very large country that will host the olympics with absolutly no quality control.

I agree.


Almost all of them are spitty as hell.


Yeah, again, I see your point.

But let's see: a TLM193 is not spitty at all, but is not very exciting either. It's not that bad I agree. But a bit dull.
Thus they felt the need to hook the kids with a more hyped TLM: the 103.

That is the problem when you try to follow the trend, and stop designing something you trully believe is the best you can do by YOUR standards.

Take the M149 for instance. ever compared it to an M49 side by side ?

Yeah, it's not Rode or SE, but frankly, when I think sonic excelence in matter of mikes right now, it's not Neumann anymore that comes to mind.

It's Horsh
It's Brauner
Soundelux comes close to them two, but I don't dig everything they do.
AEA comes to mind, as well as Royer in the ribbon market.

I don't think Neumann anymore, and i don't think AKG either.

And I do think it's an invaluable shame.

At a time, big companies or radio/tv network would buy insanely large quantities of mikes from Neumann without even trying them prior to sending the check.

A simple contract with desired specs sufficed.

I wouldn't do that if I were CIO of a large network.

malice

[Goes211]

I don't think Neumann anymore

malice

That's easy to say when you've got the Holy Grail in your arsenal.
( cue Indiana Jones vox) "a good vocalist using that U67 would be... invincible..."

And yes, i know about it being an M-269.
:Coolio:

[Pimp-X]

Transformers.

That one coveted component that plugin manufacturers wish they could emulate.

I've always thought they butcher the sound. Personally I always open up API's and remove the transformers because they cause more harm than good to the sound.

The same goes for every mic I own.

I do the same thing to Marshall's and Mesa Boogies too.

Yep, they're shit.

Often, I have been known to bypass 'wall wart' adapters and just poke the wires into the wall in order to avoid that undesirable transformer interaction.

[shikawkee]

Then again, a TLM 147 is pretty spitty compared to an U-47, too. :D


otek

Fortunately I have three U67's at my disposal and I haven't had to go there.

[weedywet]

the whole POINT of Neumann marketing is to mislead people into believing they are actually buying NEUMANNS, like in the old days, as opposed to new Sennheisers labelled Neumann.

if they stopped trading on their past glory they'd be done.

to paraphrase one major mic restorer: 'i've never heard a transformerless mic with MAGIC..."


pepople who say transformers "cause problems" are the ones who worry that "eq causes phase shift"
meaning they may be "right" on some theoretical level, but they don't have any idea what they are actually talking about on an AUDIBLE, real-world recording level.

[otek]

I do the same thing to Marshall's and Mesa Boogies too.

Introducing, from New Zealand: The Rectifier OTL. A raging three watts of sheer power. :D

Fortunately I have three U67's at my disposal and I haven't had to go there.

:finger: Evil! :fingerlefty:

meaning they may be "right" on some theoretical level, but they don't have any idea what they are actually talking about on an AUDIBLE, real-world recording level.

:Thumbsup:


otek

[shikawkee]

Speaking of "restorers" I would never let anyone touch a vintage Neumann to "improve" it. They may make it have more sizzle and less low cut but it won't be better (typically, they take out the built in filters). I've heard many of these "modified" mics and they just sound horrible to me. Especially when you start stacking tracks. Buyer beware.

[otek]

Speaking of "restorers" I would never let anyone touch a vintage Neumann to "improve" it.

Isn't it lovely when the first thing you have to do to an old piece of gear is "de-modify" it? :Roll eyes:


otek

[Slipperman]

God, I love a great vocal mic.

Especially when I get it to mix.

As everybody here already knows, it's a fucking CURSE, as MATCHING the MIC TO THE SINGER is EVERYTHING and requires several things... Most notably being:

1.) A bunch of microphone CHOICES readily available.

2.) Somebody who can SING.

3.) A clear idea of WHAT'S NEEDED both in tracking and downstream in mix.

4.) A range of good pre's and good compressors.

5.) A noose and a stout beam to hang it from when you MISS something IMPORTANT and have nobody to blame but yerself.

Anyhoo.

Neumann went into the shitter on a number of fronts about 20 years ago and has yet to emerge as far as I can tell.

Jerry at Gotham got me to switch my LDC allegiance to MT Gefell in 1988 with the purchase of my first UM70s and I haven't looked back for the most part since.

I will say this: U67's are a consistently solid mic by and large. That is, you can expect them to sound and operate in a certain "range" when you purchase them in good shape.

Something I CANNOT say about some other Neumann "classic" designs(U47 most notably), which, in the fabric of my experience, can be VERY "snowflaky". That is, evidence fairly profound differences in the sound of specific examples although the general "condition" of the mic is basically the same.

I'm wondering if any of the OLD GUARD here has had any experience with the Korby Model 10? Which sounds(no pun intended) both very promising and too good to be true.

SM.

[Spock]

Just reading this.


Transformers or any inductor, they don't have problems, they have issues that you can not ignore if you want them to work well.

A fast, down and dirty design with a cheap transformer is going to have problems.

[IntelDoc]

HOLY SHIT!!!!

The flashing "John Willett" sign is killing me. That is some funny ass shit!

That's all I have to say about that!

:D

Doc

[weedywet]

4.) A range of good pre's and good compressors.



well we disagree about this...

I need ONE good pre (usually in the desk) for the whole record.
Not a "range".

but...

...

Jerry at Gotham got me to switch my LDC allegiance to MT Gefell in 1988 with the purchase of my first UM70s and I haven't looked back for the most part since.


we sure agree there (looking around for signs of horsemen of apocalypse.... no? not yet? okay, then...)

Gefell was everything Neumann was SUPPOSED to still be doing...
I wish they hadn't taken the tranformers out of the 70 and 71, but they're STILL 100 times the mics that any new Neumanns are.
and for half the price.

I also wish Gefell would make a decent replacement for the KM-84 (it shouldn't be hard to beat the pukey KM-184), and WITH a pad... but the M300 ain't it.
If they're reading this: make it REALLY great and put the damned transformer in it.

[DaveC]

You guys don't like the M149? Sure - when I have a bank of U67s and U47s to choose from, I have used them instead, but I don't miss them when I have to rely on my 149.

[weedywet]

Not me.

there is something intangibly DISAPPOINTING about all the new Neumanns whenever I put one up.

Which I don't find with most of the Gefells.

the UM900 is as good in some applications as any mic.
There are times when I'll use the UM900 or a Brauner VMa even though a U47 or KM-86 or other great mic is available.

I couldn't say that (with a straight face) about any new Neumann.

[shikawkee]

Bill Vorn Dick swears by the Gefell mics and that's good enough for me.:grin: Seriously, everyone I respect has said for some time that the way to go nowadays is with the Gefell mics. Some consider them equal to the classic, vintage Neumanns.

[Doylemusic]

I don't know much about the Gefell line at all; however, we I just did a drum session and they used Gefell M930 for overheads and I thought they sounded pretty darned good. Nice imaging and very smooth IMO.

I'm at the point where I'm needing to get some heavy-hitter mics. I'm looking at the many C12 copies and also maybe a Lawson 251 or something. What Gefell would be in that same category?

[Pimp-X]

I will say this: U67's are a consistently solid mic by and large.


How do you feel about recording with the U-571?

[weedywet]

I don't know much about the Gefell line at all; however, we I just did a drum session and they used Gefell M930 for overheads and I thought they sounded pretty darned good. Nice imaging and very smooth IMO.

I'm at the point where I'm needing to get some heavy-hitter mics. I'm looking at the many C12 copies and also maybe a Lawson 251 or something. What Gefell would be in that same category?

the UM900
kind of VAGUELY C-12-like but with an M7 capsule (like in an original U47)
a phantom powered tube mic!
quite an incredibly good mic really.

the M930 is actually NOT one of my faves.
The MT71 and UMT70 sound MUCH better.

[Skwaidu]

Fuck, I just recently tracked in a room I had stopped using several years ago... Had to use TLM103's for overheads. The alternative would have been NT2000's. :doubledeuce:

[Swafford]

Jesus, I have a some older RFT Gefells and MG branded ones with a variety of caps. They suck. Don't buy them. Over priced. Stay away. You have been warned.

[malice]

Fuck, I just recently tracked in a room I had stopped using several years ago... Had to use TLM103's for overheads. The alternative would have been NT2000's. :doubledeuce:

imho,

that tlm103 thing is exactly WHEN things started to be fishy with Neumann. Not the tlm193 wich was boring, but not bad.

It's really like if they realise the 193 would never meet the modern expectations of over hyped frequency curve that was settling up, so they put up a quickly done cheap ldc and wait for the kids to buy it by thousands.

TLM103 sucks donkeys, like most of what Neumann did afterwards.

malice

[IntelDoc]

I remember when I first got my studio going back in D.C. and bought the 103. I was pumped at first to have it, but man I think that I have used it maybe 8 times. Female vocals only and that is puching it. Room mic crushed through a distressor maybe but I agree it really is not that flattering at all. I really want a good go to mic. These days my SM-7B is the one or the Rode NTK. Just a easy mic to setup and go.

Not a fan on the 103 at all. Have not had it out of the case in ages. may sell it to make room for something else after this chat.

Maybe it was alright on a acoustic guitar to capture the body? maybe.....

Doc

[Meriphew]

Looks like both of the TLM67 threads over at Gearslutz have been canned. The guy (dealer) who started both threads got all pissy when he realized that most others disliked the future Guitar Center hall of fame mics.

[weedywet]

anyone taking advice there DESERVES the result

[nobby]

How do you feel about recording with the U-571?

??

It was sunk by the Australian Air Force. (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq97-1.htm#anchor64843)

[Watershed]

Yay team! :Coolio:

[Slipperman]

How do you feel about recording with the U-571?

I have ALWAYS managed to make my recordings sound like they were hyrdophoned in from sunken submarines.

It's a niche market, but one which has sustained me for years.

You, one the other hand, are a fucking Kiwi zorch, and have no basis for comparison locally, as yer "navy"[cue hysterical laughing followed by the sound of shattering glass] consists of a coupla shitty rowboats filled with Greenpeace wackos intent on stopping MY glorious and gigantic Navy from turning your quaint little islands into the next Bikini Atoll.

Give it time.

We're looking for more cheap gas at any cost right now.

SM.

PS. This is provided that the "Australian Navy", which has almost 60 sailors as of last Monday pub closing time, doesn't decide to celebrate Australia Day there in the meantime.

Which will provide the same net effect.

PPS. Or we could just send Harvey Keitel's naked ass down there to shag all yer wimmins and sink a piano or two, parting the tectonic plates.

HARVEY'S NAKED ASS FOR LOOMERS FROM SHEEPSLAM CENTRAL TO ADMIRE (http://www.fys.uio.no/~magnushj/Piano/)

PPPS. WHO hired the dumb-ass Kiwi nitwit twerg who sequenced the ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE MIDI Piano score of this TERRIBLE movie?

[E.M.]

Just tested TLM 49. I´ve never recorded anything with the original old stuff but this TLM 49 is good: Not spitty.(i used pop filter). Doesn´t need all that cutting and dessing in the first place to stand out in the mix. I only tested one male voc. Also did an A/B with Bräuner Panthera which is at the same price range. Like the TLM better. With Panthera i got the feeling that i´d have to cut somewhere 250-500 to make it stand out from the mix. Also the sibilants were not in control the way they seem to be with TLM 49. Then again. Testing mikes is a matter of taste... I don´t know anything about transformers..with or without. I´ll propably buy this Neumann for vocal recording at least.

[shikawkee]

anyone taking advice there DESERVES the result

Agreed. Plus, Jules thinks he's doing something grand when in fact he's a charlatan.

[Tim Halligan]

I have ALWAYS managed to make my recordings sound like they were hyrdophoned in from sunken submarines.

It's a niche market, but one which has sustained me for years.

You, one the other hand, are a fucking Kiwi zorch, and have no basis for comparison locally, as yer "navy"[cue hysterical laughing followed by the sound of shattering glass] consists of a coupla shitty rowboats filled with Greenpeace wackos intent on stopping MY glorious and gigantic Navy from turning your quaint little islands into the next Bikini Atoll.

Give it time.

We're looking for more cheap gas at any cost right now.

SM.

PS. This is provided that the "Australian Navy", which has almost 60 sailors as of last Monday pub closing time, doesn't decide to celebrate Australia Day there in the meantime.

Which will provide the same net effect.

PPS. Or we could just send Harvey Keitel's naked ass down there to shag all yer wimmins and sink a piano or two, parting the tectonic plates.

HARVEY'S NAKED ASS FOR LOOMERS FROM SHEEPSLAM CENTRAL TO ADMIRE (http://www.fys.uio.no/~magnushj/Piano/)

PPPS. WHO hired the dumb-ass Kiwi nitwit twerg who sequenced the ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE MIDI Piano score of this TERRIBLE movie?


Not saying a damn thing while Australian Rugby is in its current parlous state.











Nada.









Nothing.
















Fuck it!
LMFBO!!!

*ahem*

:D


Cheers,
Tim

[FreakenHeimer]

Hey,
it is mi first post as you can see but i have to put my opinion on that issue.I had the same problem....What mic should i choose for the next seession.So i had many mics to choose from. I agree that
every voice has its own mic.But i decided to check a mic that's not sonically high priced but should work for the most sessions. Also the preamp choice was an huge issue. Both choices should work seamless together not causing any troubles. So we tested very well and at the end we have chosen the best solution for our env.

Now, for vocals and overheads and all kind of stringy instruments, we use the AKG 414 (modded to XLR w. brass CK12 Cap-near mint - jackpotbuy cause absolutely machted by AKG in vienna some 38 years ago. 1600 Euros(en)) and a MPX-4Aii with BB Opamps. As mixer a , some kind of "secret tip", is an master-slaved acousta P100, which sonically beats the pants off to the studer/Neve gear in that compact form. So consider that MIC to be a cheaper option to have bad assed rec. sessions.
On the transformer issue. These mics are 38 Years old and are fully working, equipped with hauffe transformers. They were serviced but only the membranes were cleaned. I have no audible noisefloor compared to the T-Powered new stuff. So why should a good transformer not work tenth of years ? Check a studer analog console or anything else. The caps are changed, but the transformer ? Fact is, that lds/sdc's without transformers are much cheaper, but are they worth thousands of bucks ? I don't thinks so. If enough money is available check out of the the current top manufacturers in microphones tech. like josephson, bock, TFK USA, pearlman or simpson mics,etc.
Thank god there are enough mic enthusiasts, that build up the old specs with moderate prices and very good quality.


Rgds.

Freakenf/u/art


For snare, the Josephson E22 is your man, believe me.