first plug ins

[halfguard]

ive pretty much just been mixing with my digi rack plug ins (002 rack) now im ready to buy my first package. i was going to buy the waves ssl but a friend of mine said the waves renn max would be a better first set. he called them more bread and butter plugs. any opinions on first set of good plug ins? thanx for any help.......

[Charles Dye]

What genre of music + what kind of sounds do you like (e.g. clean v. warm, smooth v. aggressive, etc.)?

[halfguard]

thanx for the help charles. i listen to all your stuff on the project studio podcast. very informative........im doing mostly hip hop. i guess i would like to go for a warmer sound, smooth or clean, hmmm, some of both i guess.thanx again for the help......:D

[Charles Dye]

Do you have digi rack 3?

The newest eq + dynamics plugz?

[Charles Dye]

And thanx!! Glad your diggin' the PSN podcasts (http://www.harddisklife.com/PSN.html). Mike + Al are awesome guyz. We have such a blast recording those shows.

[halfguard]

yea, im on 7.1 about to get 7.3, so yea, i have that......

[halfguard]

anyone

[con mucho gusto]

I'm really digging the massey stuff...check out their demos; they run for ever, but you cant save presets or bypass...and the full versions are cheap.

http://masseyplugins.com/

also, i can't live w/out the bombfactory fairchild....but i hear that the UA one is better...everything i've demoed from UA has been really good..

some of the cheaper waves packages are a good deal, i just never liked the way their stuff sounds.. i think you can get just as much mileage out of digi's eq3 and dynamics3 than the rennaisance eqs and comps. i hear the ssl shit is amazing tho...

the URS eqs and comps are really cool too...and for freaky efx stuff, check out the stuff from soundtoys. Verb wise, you can't go wrong w/ altiverb.

[Dion Stewart]

You might also want to check out McDSP's Classic Pack.

http://www.mcdsp.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=46

It may cover your EQ and Compression needs and it also comes with Analog Channel (both AC1 and AC2) and MC2000 (a multiband compressor).

Get some demo versions and decide what sounds best to you.


Dion

[halfguard]

right now i have the stock digi plugs, the urs ch strip and the masey demos. im kinda just learning so im not always sure about the differences im hearing (can i say that) anyways...like i said my friend thought that the waves renn max bundle would be better(renn vox,bass,eq, comp etc.....)they would be things i could build with. he thought the waves ssl might be over my head. thats why im looking for opinions on those 2 or a nice begining bundle.....thanx for any help......

[Brendo]

i'm sorry, but if you can't hear the difference, why do you need different plugins?

you say you're 'ready' to buy your first set of plugins - how are you judging this?

[MacGregor]

you say you're 'ready' to buy your first set of plugins - how are you judging this?

Yep, that's something I wondered, too.

I buy a new plug-in when I hear something interesting, can't
reproduce the effect with the ones I already own and like that
specific sound/effect THAT much that I ask the person who
did that how he or she did that.

This way you'll
a) have only the plug-ins you really need
b) learn to know your existing plug-ins by heart.

[halfguard]

your not really understanding what im saying, i guess im not explaining well....nevermind..thanx.......

[Fulcrum]

As brusque as it may have sounded, I believe what Brendo had in mind was in fact an invitation to explain yourself a little better. Until you do, we can only really shoot blanks in the dark here.

Your friend is quite mistaken IMNTLBHO about you being over your head with, say, the Waves SSL. That's one of the better kits out there, and the sooner you expose yourself to it and see what it's capable of, the sooner it won't be over your head. By your friend's reasoning you should start off learning piano with a portable Casio keyboard because a Kurzweil might be over your head. That line of thinking won't advance you professionally.

For you personally I would recommend the URS plugs-- don't know whether they bundle both the compressors and the EQs together in one package but I know the EQs come in a bundle. If you're just looking to get your feet wet, start with the Fulltec EQ-- you can't sweep frequencies, there are only a fixed number available in each of the five bands (lo shelf, high shelf, and three bell). Should be enough to get you started.

[Brendo]

As brusque as it may have sounded, I believe what Brendo had in mind was in fact an invitation to explain yourself a little better. Until you do, we can only really shoot blanks in the dark here.

Exactly. You say you want some "warm, smooth, clean" plugins for doing hiphop, but you haven't said what plugins you've been using, what you do and don't like about them, etc - i.e. do you really know that you've outgrown the stock stuff, and can you see the need for purchasing some new plugins?

Do you have the factory bundle? Music production toolkit?

Example... I find the Digi EQ3 quite capable. Likewise with Gate 3. But the compressors bundled with PT aren't spectacular, so my next plugin purchase might be compressors, etc...

[halfguard]

thanx for the replies. i hate to be a pain :grin: ...but, yea basically i was wondering if the ssl might be to much since im in the begining stages......i have the urs ch strip which i like and and i do like the digi eqs.....i just wasnt sure if i needed things like the renn stuff. ould be good building blocks before i go the bigger plugs?.....fulcrum, what you say makes sense, im going to consider that....brendo, i appreciate your help. what comps would you recoment to warm things up a bit? thanx again....

[Skwaidu]

what comps would you recoment to warm things up a bit? thanx again....

Actually, most compressors *compress* more than "warm" stuff... :lol:

That being said, the Waves SSL bundle are good tools. The RCompressor and C1 have their uses too. Check some demos out and see what you like the sound and features of. You really have to check them out yourself, if they work for you...

[volthause]

I haven't actually found a good use for the RenComp. It's just not aggresive enough. For smacking shit around big-time, I've actually found good use in the standard Waves channel strip. The EQ isn't flattering, but it will do shit. The comp will flatten just about anything you put in it.

[Brendo]

Also maybe you should check out Bryson's thread in this same forum... similar question but he's moving up from the stock PTHD plugs.

[halfguard]

just downloaded the waves ssl demo, with play with it this weekend........

[Charles Dye]

halfguard,

I've been holding off on answering cuz I've been wavering (pun possibly intended) back + forth with my reply. Based on your original question, here's what I was considering:

At first I was gonna say...

Okay, I'm sure many may disagree, but the new digi 3 eqs + comps are actually pretty good. They're clean + don't have a lot of character (not a bad thing), but they ARE good sounding. What they're missing is the crunch + punch of eqs like URS or Waves SSL, or comps like UAD 1176 or RenComp.

But you said you were looking for relatively clean sounds + that you're working in hip-hop. So, I thought maybe the digi 3 plugz could work for your eq + comp.

And my suggestion for you would be to demo the McDSP Analog Channel (AC1 + AC2), and DUYs Analog Bundle (Valve + Tape). These are saturation plugz + they'll give you the one thing you can't get from just eqs + comps. And that's analog warmth. (Or "analog warmth", depending on your state of ludditity.)

These plugz might fill the void that your digi plugz don't address.

Then I considered the Waves SSL bundle...

Seriously, these plugz are great. I love them. I use them all the time. They sound amazing + really accomplish their goal: they sound analog + like an SSL.

The analog circuit is very cool, the eqs rock, + the master buss comp is killer. But, just like the console, the E series comp (in the E Channel strip) is not really flexible. It does what it does, which is a punchie modern sound, but it doesn't do soft compression very elegantly. This is not a criticism of the plug, as much as a limitation of the SSL channel comp itself.

Nonetheless, great sounds all around.

The bundle comes with 3 plugz:


E Channel Strip
G Master Buss Comp
G EQ

And native it goes for about $750 / €640.

But then I check'd out the Waves RenMaxx bundle...

Okay. I have one of the larger bundles, so I really didn't know what this one included. But I figured it was RenComp, RenEQ + a cupla other plugz.

I gotta tell you, when I found out what this came with, I was kinda floored. It has a broad selection of some pretty great sounding plugz. It's got all the Ren stuff, but then they throw in a vox tuner + a convo verb. It's a serious combo, but the best part is the price.

The bundle comes with 9 plugz:


IR-L Convolution Reverb
Tune LT
Ren Channel
Ren Compressor
Ren Reverberator
Ren Equalizer
Ren Vox
Ren Bass
Ren DeEsser

And native it goes for about $450 / €345.

Bottom line...

Look, the saturation stuff is great, + the SSL plugz sound awesome. But for the money, between these three above options, + considering your what you told us you were looking to do, I think RenMaxx is the way to go.

It will be a big step up from your current palatte. And it doesn't just improve your eq + comp, but you get a number of other great tools. The convo verb (IR-L) is a huge plus: it's got awesome IRs, including some great EMT plates + pretty much an entire Lexicon 480L. (Uh... that don't suck.) But you also get Tune LT, a light version of their cool vocal tuning plug. That's alotta power for not alotta price.

Now, in the ears of some here, RenEQ is not a step up from digi EQ3, but I don't agree. I actually think it's a pretty good sounding EQ. It has a "golden bell-like" quality that has a nice warmth + I use it quite often. Most importantly, it's a good contrast to the clean sound of EQ3.

But the real step up for you IMO is RenComp, cuz it's real flexible. It can sound warm + round like an LA-2A, and it can also be made to sound punchie + clean(er) like a DBX or 1176. For me, it's a versatile comp that I use all the time. And it'll give you some nice options over the digi Dyn3.

After you check out the SSL plugz, give RenMaxx a drive, + let us know what ya think.

Hope this helps.

[Brendo]

I'll just chime in and say RenComp IS cool, and I prefer it to Dyn 3.

[halfguard]

wow charles, thanx for your reply. its exactly what i was looking for. i have the waves ssl demo and the duy demos to play with. i think i only got the valve not tape, i forget which came with the pack i downloaded. after this ill try the renn maxx.....i have to be real smart with my money because im also budgeting for a 2 ch pre (pacifica/api/or neve clone) i really appreciate your help...thanx again.................

[Charles Dye]

Cool. My pleasure, hg.

I forgot that DUY Tape doesn't have an RTAS version. But McDSP's AC2 tape plug is really great too + it comes in RTAS.

My advice is that you spend as much time with the SSL demo as you can. IOW, don't demo all the bundles @ once. Get to know the SSL plugz. It's a very short demo period, like 7 days, so use it a lot to get a real feel for it.

Then once it times out, DL the RenMaxx bundle + spend as much time as you can with it. There's alotta plugz there, so I'd focus on RenComp + EQ to compare them to SSL. And I'd also spend time getting to know IR-L, the convo verb, cuz that's such a powerful tool to add to your arsenal.

Have fun + let us know how it goes.

[matt allison]

Hey Charles,

Firstly let me start off by say 'HI'. I'd in no way call myself a 'Mix Engineer', but slowing growing in the craft. Most of my time is spent either as tracking/assistant engineer or building the gear that other engineer uses.

Not to take this post to off topic but I to have been enjoying the PODcasts over at PSN and have enjoyed your comments/thoughts thus far and although I build analog gear, I spend a lot of time 'in the box' and enjoy your rational/commentary and have a copy MILaR on order.

The only downside to this is that having heard the PSN cast, seen the MILaR DVD promo chapter/ad and recently watched the older Digidesign HD DVD which you narrated and presented... I can't get your voice out of my head, Hah hah! When I read you posts I hear your voice... freaky, LOL!

I just wanted to correct your post above on the Waves RenMaxx stuff though...

It's got all the Ren stuff, but then they throw in a vox tuner + a convo verb.

RenVox is not a voice tuner like WavesTune/Avox/Autotune, but rather a 'simplified' compressor geared for Vocals, based on on the RenComp.

And while the verb is cool if you can do without it and want to just pick up the RenComp and RenEQ your most economical way of doing so is to purchase the Waves Musician II Bundle, which includes these plugs along with RenVox and Super Tap (Delay/Spacial Effects) and Doubler.

The Native bundle retails for $150USD, which is a KILLER deal.

Okay.. back to the scheduled programming!

Cheers

Matt

[Charles Dye]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for all your very kind words + patronage. Glad your diggin' the PSN podcasts. I have such a major blast w/ Mike + Al recording them. These guys are seriously funny. We laugh a hell of a lot. And I sincerely hope MiLaR will help you grow as a mixer.

I also really appreciate you taking the time to point out my mistake + help out the Wombians.

When I read you posts I hear your voice [in my head]... freaky, LOL!

I just wanted to correct your post above on the Waves RenMaxx stuff though...

RenVox is not a voice tuner like WavesTune/Avox/Autotune, but rather a 'simplified' compressor geared for Vocals, based on on the RenComp.

You say this with such conviction, I assume you compared the 2 bundles + found this was true.

But...


[and hear this in your head with my kindest, gentlest voice...]


You're dead wrong.


Kidding. :Wink:

But seriously, you're mistaken.

That's okay + highly understandable, considering Waves only recently made a change to the RenMaxx Bundle (http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=53) by adding Tune LT + IR-L Convolution Reverb.

So, I wasn't referring to RenVox when I said, "the bundle includes a vocal tuner." RenVox is a very cool + great sounding aggressive vocal comp, which I love on up-tempo rock trax. But I was talking about a completely different plug, Tune LT (http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=1741). And it's a pretty hip vocal tuner, along the lines of melodyne.

Additionally, the old RenMaxx bundle included RenVerb (which is an okay verb, but not a fave), but the new bundle also has the IR-L Convolution Reverb (http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=1563). This is a light version of Waves very happening convo verb IR-1. To be clear, this verb is not to be taken lightly (uuh... no pun intended).

Allow me to repeat something from my previous post that is very impotant: IR-L has an entire Lexicon 480L + an EMT 140 Plate inside. These 2 IRs are of some of the best sounding verbs out there, + they're just 2 of the nearly 60 different sets of impulse responses included w/ IR-L (see full list here (http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=658)).

I have the non-lite version, IR-1, + it sounds amazing. But as I understand it, the difference between IR-L + IR-1 is not much. They both have the same sound + all the same impulse responses, but IR-L simply has fewer controls. And the most important part is clearly the sound, not maximum tweakage.

IMO, convos really are the best sounding verbs out there right now. Their street price starts @ $450.

OTOH, the entire RM bundle sells for the same price + basically put, that's a steal.

So, for more info check out the links above + I hope this helps.

And just kiddin ya, Matt. Thanx for your post.

[halfguard]

charles, ive been playing with the waves and duy plugs for a couple days now. the ssl g master bus, is it very subtle, or is it me? do you mix through it? i like the e ch, especially for drums......the duy plugs are really cool. do you ever use the duy shape on the master? ive still got a couple more days with both...

[Charles Dye]

Do you mean the "analog" circuit (button) on the G master buss comp, or the compressor itself. I wouldn't call the comp very subtle, but the "analog" thing is.

Yeah, the e chs are great on drums. Do you mean the eq or the comps/gates? They're both great, but I'd say the eq is better than the comp/gate. The eq works great on a lot of things: drums, bass, gtrs, keys, vox. It's very aggresive + edgie, w/out being harsh.

The DUY plugz kick ass, but you seem to be experiencing that.

And I haven't really gotten into Shape, but Phil Tan (very talented r+b/hip-hop mixer) uses it on his mix buss.

Keep havin fun!!

[matt allison]

Hey Charles,

You're dead wrong.

You mean AGAN, darn, it seems it becoming a habit :lol:

Yeah sorry man, my eyes obviously glanced over the Tune LT and IR-L as 2am this morning when I responded and like you said they weren't included up until recently and I don't remember them being included a year ago when I looked at the package.

I opted for M II B at the time as I thought it a better deal for the money @ $150 (Which still bears a mention I guess as a 'poor mans' Native Bundle to add RenVox, RenComp and RenEQ to your system).

But for $450 WITH Tune LT and IR-L that pack seems to cover a lot of ground!

Speaking of Convo Verbs, another cool way for any of the LE users to get their hands on one is to upgrade to the Music Production or DV Toolkits where they will get TL Space included in the deal, so not only will you add a few more features to your LE rig like upgrading your voices, multi-track Beat Detective but also get some nifty new plugs, including Space.

It does lead me onto another question RE Convo Verbs, it seems obvious to state this, but I guess the Verbs are only as good as their impulses. Since many Verbs can load in the same impluses do you find that some of the other Convo Verbs handle them differently.

What are your thoughts outside of the Waves IR? Do you use TL Space or McDSP's Revolver, or do you find you get the best results out of the Waves Verb.

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom and thoughts for moderating this great forum.

Cheers

Matt

[Charles Dye]

I use TL Space + it sounds great. I haven't used Revolver yet, but I've heard good things about it.

The thing about convo verbs is it's really about the IRs. And Waves + TL both have really great sounding IR collections.

[halfguard]

im liking both the ssl and the duy plugs. yea, i was talking about the analog button. i was doing alot of comparing between the duy valve and master comp. the duy from mix to anaolg s (unlinked) gave a kind of straigh saturation while i though the ssl comp was more gluey without losing any of the highs. i really like them both. charles, do you mix through these plugs like ac 1 &2 or just insert them at the end?

[Jason Phair]

charles, do you mix through these plugs like ac 1 &2 or just insert them at the end?


Oh chuckle chuckle.


Ask Kenny.



(Sorry)

[Charles Dye]

You can ask... but don't expect an answer.



I'm not sure the when the last time was that Kenny posted in his own forum.

:Roll eyes: :Roll eyes: :Roll eyes:

[halfguard]

well, my ssl demo ran out. i liked it and well see. now i have the analog ch and ch g and renn maxx demos to play with for the next 14 days..............

[Charles Dye]

Yep, the SSL demo endz b4 you want it to.

Have a blast with RenMaxx + Analog Channel.

Let us know how it goes.

[volthause]

Waves SSL is great stuff. The CLA presets make me chuckle a bit. Makes me wonder if he's stone deaf above 5K. :lol:

[Charles Dye]

Takin' all the top end off gtrs is done a lot these days. CLA, Andy Wallace, many others...

Makes lotsa room for vocals. There's plenty of space to make gtrs bite in the hi-midz.

[Fulcrum]

I think Volt is referring to the extreme abrasiveness of the CLA presets-- extreme boosting above 5k.

I like the other non-CLA presets-- they're good starting points, if a little heavy on the compression.

[volthause]

I think Volt is referring to the extreme abrasiveness of the CLA presets-- extreme boosting above 5k.

I like the other non-CLA presets-- they're good starting points, if a little heavy on the compression.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. He certainly loves his upper octaves. But whatever, he's C fucking LA dammit! :lol:

[Fulcrum]

And with those presets, he's welcome to it.

[Charles Dye]

DOH!!!

:homersimpsonemoticon:

[Bob Olhsson]

Takin' all the top end off gtrs is done a lot these days. CLA, Andy Wallace, many others...FWIW Mickey Most had me doing that to Jeff Beck in 1971.

[jdub]

What's up guys. Great Thread. I personally love Tritone Digital. I remember hearing Charles talk about Colortone about a year ago or so and I demoed it.

"Man that's Awesome" Sorry couldn't resist. But it is. I love the Colortone Pro Plug! It's hard to explain what it actually is. I think it samples the IR's of different hardware comp's EQ's Tape Machines's etc. It does an awesome job of warming up digital. I use it on many things. While it is very subtle, you will definitely not be able to live without it when you get it. IMO

Again, Tritone Digital has an EQ called Hydratone. This thing is awesome. I think it's the same kind of deal as the Colortone. It really has a character to it. So if you are looking for transparent this is not your EQ. But you already have Digi EQ so you don't really need clean again. Between Digi, Ren EQ, and Hydratone I'm pretty much covered.

Charles, have you got into Tritone Digital? If so what are your opinions?

[halfguard]

well, ive been playing with all these plugins now for a little and here are my thoughts. i liked all of them...but i THINK im going to get the waves musicians bundle 2
(ren eq/comp/vox/doub/tap..150$) and the duy everpack (valve/shape/wide/max/z room 295$) im also planning on getting a lunchbox with 2 api 512's (1800-1900$). later on (in about 6 months hopefully)ill get the waves ssl bundle (595$). i put the prices so you can see where im coming from and where i can get the most instant gratification and bang for the buck.....:)

[Fulcrum]

Interesting choices those. What made you decide on that particular configuration, besides the price?

[halfguard]

well, to me the pre are very important, so thats where it starts. after that i i chose the waves mb2 because i felt it had the "must haves"....(ren comp/ren eq/ ren vox) the renn maxx bundle had some nice stuff but for the the difference i could get the duy valve, wide and shape plugs that i really like. (i wish i could get tape on le) i figured these would be really good starting points then when ive recouped ill get the ssl bundle to finish me up....

[jdub]

If you want tape get Massey Tape Tone. It sounds excellent. Also the Musicians toolkit has TL Space and Smack.

Also mics are very important. To me it is about the mic first then Pre. Also check out the Dav BG-1. An excellent 2 channel pre for about $750. You can only get it in the UK though but it is highly recommended. Gilmour and Mark Knopfler use them quite a bit.

[halfguard]

i wont be recording any vocals here. just drum machines and keyboards. i actually have smack and the masey tape demo. ill try it some more.:Thumbsup:

[Ian-H]

"(ren eq/comp/vox/doub/tap..150$) and the... waves ssl bundle (595$)"

Where do you get these prices? Very different to what I'm seeing on the Waves site - $200 and $1000!

[matt allison]

"(ren eq/comp/vox/doub/tap..150$) and the... waves ssl bundle (595$)"

Where do you get these prices? Very different to what I'm seeing on the Waves site - $200 and $1000!

Yeah, check out Sweetwater.com, their prices are more inline with what has been shared here.

Matt

[halfguard]

musicans bundle 2 should be 150$ from any retailer. 595$ for the waves....look at some of the smaller boutique places.....