Hardware latency compensation

[David Aurora]

WTF?

In the past I either patched mixes into boards or mixed 99% ITB (maybe a hardware comp here or there on a vocal), but with my new rig I'm doing a bit more of a hybrid setup. So the whole latency compensation thing is fairly new to me. In Pro Tools I had manual ways I knew to do it perfect, but Logic is doing my head in on it.

Am I on crack or does the latency change depending on various factors (no idea what)? And it doesn't seem to do shit on aux tracks, correct? I've been dicking around with that Expert Sleepers Latency Fixer plug and so far that's the best I've found for the task, but....I find the latency of going through the DAC/ADC, save that setting, then next time I buss something through the same converters/signal chain I need to tweak the time again. WTF??!! And also, that plug doesn't seem precise enough. There's been a few times where the smallest steps available are too high/too low and I can faintly hear phase dramas in parallel processing situations.

How do you guys do it? I thought it would be so much more straightforward than this (in the past I just bussed something out and back in, found the difference and used that to offset tracks, but everytime I do this in Logic I get a different result)

[Oberlehrer]

Just a quick question: Have you set Latency compensation to "All" or just "Audio tracks and instrument tracks" (or whatever that might be called in the english version)?

[Ein Mangfaldig Kar]

Logic should handle the latency of loop back recording automaticly. But there is a way to adjust it if necesery.

The adaptive limiter and some other plugs gives you different latency issues.Are you using that on something?

A good rule of thumb is to have ALC turned off when recording.
With some plugs the latency gets a bit awkward.

[David Aurora]

yeah compensation is set to all dude


the problem is not software inserts but hardware inserts. if i use a hardware insert on an audio track it seems to get reasonably close to timing it right, but as processing on a parallel drum bus or something....forget it. the plugin i mentioned can fix that if i spend long enough tweaking it but i just figured theres gotta be a better way. unfortunately though, the numbers seem to change so a preset time doesnt seem to help

[otek]

unfortunately though, the numbers seem to change so a preset time doesnt seem to help

Whenever you add a new plugin, the system has to adjust its cumulative latency to be able to maintain proportional latency internally.

That means the latency with respect to hardware/external processing will constantly change.

The only way to keep it constant is, ironically, to turn ADC off.


otek

[David Aurora]

Whenever you add a new plugin, the system has to adjust its cumulative latency to be able to maintain proportional latency internally.

That means the latency with respect to hardware/external processing will constantly change.

The only way to keep it constant is, ironically, to turn ADC off.


otek

fuck me this is way more thinking than i like :lol: :lol: :lol:

ok, so whats the normal approach for logic users using both software and hardware inserts?

[jord]

If anything, I have a few hardware units looped into my 24I/O. In this case ADC is not needed. The only time one needs ADC is when they start using a latency inducing piece of hardware. Such examples include a UAD 1e card or a Liquid Mix.

If I am routing through a bunch of aux channels that I know will have the Liquid Mix on it, then ADC needs to be set to all. You can get away with using it set at Inst & Whatever if you are not going to introduce latency on the aux channels.

However, don't have it set to all when you are tracking. Otherwise, you will hear unnecessary latency.

jord

[David Aurora]

i think we're talking about something else here dude. my hardware is not latency inducing stuff like hardware that does plugins, its just outboard gear. but the loop through the converters has a delay. so while it seems to correct itself to a certain extent when used as an insert on an audio channel, on aux tracks no dice (and yep, adc is set to all). try it on your motu- set up a paralel bus for drums and insert some outboard (or just patch it dry through the converters even). flam city :Sad:

as i said, you can get pretty close to fixing it with the latency fixer plugin, but then next time you do the same thing the latency is different so you spend way too much time working that crap out

[HOOK]

Just a thought...


How about nudging the track in question a couple of qf ahead of time to compensate for the latency. This "latency compensation" will stay "in tune" even if you add additional plugs as the change of the regions timing is fixed and not calculated by the ADC!

No promises haven't tried it, but it should work.



HOOK

[David Aurora]

Just a thought...


How about nudging the track in question a couple of qf ahead of time to compensate for the latency. This "latency compensation" will stay "in tune" even if you add additional plugs as the change of the regions timing is fixed and not calculated by the ADC!

No promises haven't tried it, but it should work.



HOOK

yeah logic already takes care of that if youre processing straight through dude. its when you try to get things going in paralel that youre fucked. for example, say i have 8 tracks of drums and i wanna run the overheads through one of my rncs and the kick through an analog eq. insert them, all is well (well, it actually sounds a little off sometimes, but very close). but....make a paralel bus from the drums, all is well. insert hardware on that bus, game over, youre about to spend a pile of time trying to guess and then fine tune the latency

[RobS]

yeah logic already takes care of that if youre processing straight through dude. its when you try to get things going in paralel that youre fucked. for example, say i have 8 tracks of drums and i wanna run the overheads through one of my rncs and the kick through an analog eq. insert them, all is well (well, it actually sounds a little off sometimes, but very close). but....make a paralel bus from the drums, all is well. insert hardware on that bus, game over, youre about to spend a pile of time trying to guess and then fine tune the latency

Don't guess, simply send the out of the bus through your external hardware and back into a different track. Record the incoming signal into that track. Now compare the original with that recorded track in the audio editor, and you'll see the offset. To figure out the exact offset, highlight the recorded track where the first audio wave starts, and drag to the first measure that is closest. So if you're at measure one, simply highlight and drag to measure one. You'll get a number of samples the sound is offset by. That's your latency.

I know not ideal, but a lot quicker and a lot more accurate than guessing. Just setup a in/out loop you can always use to run tests like that on the fly. 2-3 minutes and you have your answer.

R

[David Aurora]

Don't guess, simply send the out of the bus through your external hardware and back into a different track. Record the incoming signal into that track. Now compare the original with that recorded track in the audio editor, and you'll see the offset. To figure out the exact offset, highlight the recorded track where the first audio wave starts, and drag to the first measure that is closest. So if you're at measure one, simply highlight and drag to measure one. You'll get a number of samples the sound is offset by. That's your latency.

I know not ideal, but a lot quicker and a lot more accurate than guessing. Just setup a in/out loop you can always use to run tests like that on the fly. 2-3 minutes and you have your answer.

R

yeah thats what i did first, i just got sick of banging my head against the wall getting different results. found it was quicker in the end to just dial it in by ear :Confused:

[RobS]

To be honest the confusing thing is that you're seeing the latency only to the bus, this is all internal processing, so I wonder if there isn't anything else going on there. When I last tried this to use an external compressor off a bus, I didn't have this problem, so there could be something going on with the signal elsewhere. So perhaps there are plugs at the outs, or on the bus itself... dunno, but once I set that latency compensation it's rock solid for me.

I wonder if it has to do with your audio interface. If you use the internal hardware off your mac as the audio interface do you get the same problem?

I'm on an Apogee Symphony setup, and my latency compensation for recording is generally about -83 samples. Typically even on a loopback to external hardware that is the same latency I get. It doesn't seem to change.

R

[David Aurora]

To be honest the confusing thing is that you're seeing the latency only to the bus, this is all internal processing, so I wonder if there isn't anything else going on there. When I last tried this to use an external compressor off a bus, I didn't have this problem, so there could be something going on with the signal elsewhere. So perhaps there are plugs at the outs, or on the bus itself... dunno, but once I set that latency compensation it's rock solid for me.

I wonder if it has to do with your audio interface. If you use the internal hardware off your mac as the audio interface do you get the same problem?

I'm on an Apogee Symphony setup, and my latency compensation for recording is generally about -83 samples. Typically even on a loopback to external hardware that is the same latency I get. It doesn't seem to change.

R

man it wouldnt surprise me if its my hardware. fucking m-audio profire lightbridge piece of shit, its been nothing but headaches since i bought it. ill probably be replacing it before long so i guess ill find out then

[jord]

i think we're talking about something else here dude. my hardware is not latency inducing stuff like hardware that does plugins, its just outboard gear. but the loop through the converters has a delay. so while it seems to correct itself to a certain extent when used as an insert on an audio channel, on aux tracks no dice (and yep, adc is set to all). try it on your motu- set up a paralel bus for drums and insert some outboard (or just patch it dry through the converters even). flam city :Sad:

Like I said, that's why your PDC should not be set to all. You didn't read my message clear enough... I said only set it to all if you are using latency inducing hardware.

I do use my MOTU with my outboard gear looped in. There's no flam city here (then again, its DSP is on a PCIe card).

Seeing as you did mention you are using an M-Audio piece of gear, that could be a great deal of your problem. Even since I chucked my ProjectMix I/O and erased the drivers off of my system, I have been able to work at lower audio buffer rates in Logic. Absolutely no regrets.

jord

[David Aurora]

Like I said, that's why your PDC should not be set to all. You didn't read my message clear enough... I said only set it to all if you are using latency inducing hardware.

I do use my MOTU with my outboard gear looped in. There's no flam city here (then again, its DSP is on a PCIe card).

Seeing as you did mention you are using an M-Audio piece of gear, that could be a great deal of your problem. Even since I chucked my ProjectMix I/O and erased the drivers off of my system, I have been able to work at lower audio buffer rates in Logic. Absolutely no regrets.

jord

still not sure im following man...wouldnt turning it off result in other stuff shitting itself? i.e. aux tracks software plugins not being compensated etc?

[David Aurora]

p.s. a crucial point being that as regular inserts on audio tracks the hardware inserts arent a problem, so logic seems to be sorting that latency out fine. its just aux track stuff

[David Aurora]

ahh, ok, hang on, just read your post for like the 5th time and finally clicked to what youre saying :lol: ive been misunderstanding you

ill try changing it from all and see if that sorts it out

[RobS]

After you change it from All, change that M-Audio thing... M-Audio anything is trouble, period. Get yourself a kick ass Apogee Duet, and forget your problems. With the new driver they released that thing is solid as a rock, and not so expensive that it's going to break your budget. At $495.00, probably not too far from what you paid for M-Audio, it will blow the doors out of all 2 channel audio converters.

Best
R

[David Aurora]

After you change it from All, change that M-Audio thing... M-Audio anything is trouble, period. Get yourself a kick ass Apogee Duet, and forget your problems. With the new driver they released that thing is solid as a rock, and not so expensive that it's going to break your budget. At $495.00, probably not too far from what you paid for M-Audio, it will blow the doors out of all 2 channel audio converters.

Best
R

haha yeah, except id be about 30 channels short of what i need then :grin: the whole "2 good channels" school of thought doesnt really work for me cause im all about bands jamming together as opposed to overdubbing a couple channels at a time. on average when im doing basics im using 16 channels live at any given time. and so leaving a few spare channels for the bigger projects, anything under 24 channels i/o (one format, none of that 8 channels adat, 8 analog, 8 tdif.....etc bullshit) is pointless for my needs

i think presonus make a 32 channel lightpipe thingy similar to the m-audio piece of crap, i might do some research on that

[otek]

i think presonus make a 32 channel lightpipe thingy similar to the m-audio piece of crap, i might do some research on that

RME is releasing their 36-channel RayDAT (http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdspe_raydat.php) card, which is the latest incarnation of the Hammerfall..... These are great, i've used them for years.

The expensive bit is naturally the actual converters, as always. The problem is, I don't know of a really good "deal" on converters - you very much get what you pay for. The Lynx Aurora remains one of the best deals for 16 I/O out there, as does the MOTU 192 for 12.


otek

[Nutmeg]

Just a quick though: Wasn't there a problem with AUX and ADC in Logic?
Like you have ADC on everything but AUX objects?
Tried to use a BUS object insted?

[otek]

One of the really annoying things in Logic 7.2 (which, due to my lack of experience with L8, I don't know if they managed to fix yet) was that the ADC didn't work with sidechain/key input tracks.

E.g. if I insert a heavy-latency plugin on one track, and use another track to key it, the key track will be off.


otek

[RobS]

I see... How about the Saffire Pro? 26 channels and not too expensive and real good quality from what I understand.

[Nutmeg]

One thing is for sure.
It doesn't matter how far the programmer think in terms of ADC, the user will always find some crazy routing which will bring up a problem or two! :)

One of the really annoying things in Logic 7.2 (which, due to my lack of experience with L8, I don't know if they managed to fix yet) was that the ADC didn't work with sidechain/key input tracks.

E.g. if I insert a heavy-latency plugin on one track, and use another track to key it, the key track will be off.


otek

[electrowerks]

I am going through the same thing right now. Using an Aux with I/O Plug for outboard drum verb and getting major latency. I am using a Symphony system so I dont think its a hardware problem.

So if I am reading you correctly. I should turn off PDC and not use my UAD1 card and the latency will go away on the outboard reveb returning into an aux?

I am so fucking fed up with this shit. Maybe a PT HD system or an analog board is the next step. All I want to do is make fucking music, not become a computer science major.

[David Aurora]

oh yeah, forgot to mention, turning off compensation for aux tracks doesnt fix the problem :Confused: it looks like you have to manually adjust with compensation plugins like latency fixer

[HOOK]

I see... How about the Saffire Pro? 26 channels and not too expensive and real good quality from what I understand.

...if you like the focusrite preamps....
The amps have an annoying "Ketchup effect" at, like, 1 o´clock, so if youre recording something soft it could be a pita...
and the 48v switch is in the software... :Thumbdown:




HOOK

[RWC]

(one format, none of that 8 channels adat, 8 analog, 8 tdif.....etc bullshit)

Amen! :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup:

[RobS]

...if you like the focusrite preamps....
The amps have an annoying "Ketchup effect" at, like, 1 o´clock, so if youre recording something soft it could be a pita...
and the 48v switch is in the software... :Thumbdown:
HOOK

Well I don't, I use Apogee, but it seems to be out of his price range :)

R