Bypassing GAP Preamp

[Keks]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to this hangout (though I stumbled in searching stuff every now and then).

Is there a way to skip the preamp section in GAP?
I have a fine guitar pre I'd like to use, but through GAP it sounds cocks and balls.
Yes, I RTFM, but I found nothing that helped.

Thanks in advance,
the keks

[jord]

Note that I moved your post to its own thread... otherwise it just gets buried.

On to the show...

Actually, there's no preamp in GAP. GAP is basically amp model and speaker model in one plug-in and they go hand in hand. If you're simply playing with the presets, you'll find them less than satisfying. However, a little knob tweaking and I've found that GAP is actually quite an excellent plug-in.

As well, you'll probably notice with a bunch of the channel strip presets that GAP is only one plug-in in the chain. Either the Clip Distortion, Distortion II or Overdrive often precede GAP. Treat GAP like part of the chain as you would playing a real life guitar.

Another thing to consider is how you are interfacing your guitar to the computer. If you're going through a mediocre audio interface, don't expect stellar results. As well, D/A's by themselves can be rather sterile. Try putting a tube pre in your audio chain and hook your guitar through that. Guitars and tubes have been best friends for decades. :)

jord

[Keks]

Thanks for the answer.
I have been concentrating on jazz guitar and acoustic guitar for some years now, and now it's terrible hard to tell, what a great distorted/overdriven guitar sounds like.
My first idea was to reduce the number of parameters, but, I guess, there is just the hard way.
I found your GAP file, thats a great point to start from.:Thumbsup:

Thanks again,
all the best,
the keks

[jord]

The "great distorted guitar sound" is a subjective thing. If anything, I've gotten a lot of my guitar models from listening to lot of the guitar sounds I like and then putting in a the time and effort to try to get Logic to emulate those tones. It doesn't always work, but those happy accidents often inspire me to write some new songs.

Thanx for the kudos... I'm working on more emu's (there's a certain Paul Gilbert lead tone that I am after :) ).

jord

[Keks]

The "great distorted guitar sound" is a subjective thing. If anything, I've gotten a lot of my guitar models from listening to lot of the guitar sounds I like and then putting in a the time and effort to try to get Logic to emulate those tones.

Yeah, I guess this is the only way to do this.
But it's hard for a beginner to build sounds from the scratch and unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to record a loud amp, neighbours, you know.:Roll eyes:

Anyway, this forum is a great resource and though i won't have much to contribute I'll feel free to read and listen and learn.

Thanks again,
all the best,
the keks

[otek]

Is there a way to skip the preamp section in GAP?
I have a fine guitar pre I'd like to use, but through GAP it sounds cocks and balls.

That's because GAP emulates the signal path through an entire amp, including preamp, power amp and cab.

You get the added gain stages of a preamp feeding a preamp - which in real life, often doesn't sound all that great either.

Also, a lot of preamps give you some kind of speaker emulation on the output. Since the GAP also has speaker emulation (or DI emulation), you will get emulation into emulation, which never sounded good to me.


otek

[jord]

Since the GAP also has speaker emulation (or DI emulation), you will get emulation into emulation, which never sounded good to me.

All depends on how you use it... you've even noted that yourself. :D

jord

[otek]

All depends on how you use it... you've even noted that yourself. :D

Yeah, I mentioned it because Keks said he was using a (presumably hardware) preamp into the GAP. Now, if this pre is something like, say, a Roland GP-100, Yamaha DG or whatever, they too do speaker emulation, and running that into a preamp stage mostly sounds kind of awful.

I actually haven't looked for it, but I wonder if the GAP can do cabinet emulation only, as well as amplifier models? I seem to recall something like a "clean tube amp" model which may work better with his preamp, at least if he turns off any speaker emulation that might be in there.


otek

[jord]

There's no real way to separate the speaker emu from the amp emu. Probably doing what you suggested (clean tube amp model) may work.

And yes, he should turn off any other emulation in his pre. That's what I like about my TubeFire... it's just a pre (a set of them to be exact) and is a no-brainer for me to hook up my guitar thru into Logic, as I have too much on my mind as it is. :D

jord

[Keks]

Now, if this pre is something like, say, a Roland GP-100, Yamaha DG or whatever, they too do speaker emulation, and running that into a preamp stage mostly sounds kind of awful.


No, it is a Soldano SP-77, just a plain preamp.



I actually haven't looked for it, but I wonder if the GAP can do cabinet emulation only, as well as amplifier models?

Yeah, that was what I was wondering about, too.
I tried the "clean tube amp" myself, but the result was less than mediocre, even my first shot at GAP was a lot better.
As I said, I've been playing mainly clean sounds for some years now,
and I have to develop a feeling for a good overdriven/distorted guitar sound again.
It would have been easier for me to use that preamp, because there are not that many variables...

Thanks for your replies,
all the best,
the keks

[otek]

It would have been easier for me to use that preamp, because there are not that many variables..

Have you tried any of the other amp modeling alternatives?

A friend of mine turned me on to Revalver (http://www.alienconnections.com/products.htm), which is "native" in more than one sense to me (it's developed by a Swedish company). :D

Sounds really good.


otek

[Keks]

So, I tried Revalver, and it's really simple to dial in great tones.
After some hours of dealing with GAP I start to get rewarding results, too.
Thanks guys,
all the best,
the keks

[jord]

A friend of mine turned me on to Revalver (http://www.alienconnections.com/products.htm), which is "native" in more than one sense to me (it's developed by a Swedish company). :D

Sounds really good.

I just noticed that Revalver is now owned by Peavey. Don't know if that's a good thing or not. The specs for MKIII look impressive but I don't know if I would jump into that just yet, as I actually have my eye on a Pod X3 Live unit, so I can take it with me to church (because plugging directly into the Peavey amp they have there just sounds like ass).

I also wish Peavey would put some sound bytes of some of the modelled amps online... I don't feel like installing yet another demo just to hear it.

jord

[otek]

I also wish Peavey would put some sound bytes of some of the modelled amps online... I don't feel like installing yet another demo just to hear it.

Trust me, it beats the hell out of GAP. :)

otek

[jord]

Dunno... I got great mileage out of GAP. :)

Mind you, I picked up a Pod X3 Live today (they just happened to have gotten a couple at the music store two days ago) and I must say that this thing totally impresses the heck out of me! Only time will tell if GAP gets relegated into the background.

jord

[otek]

Not knocking the GAP or the Pod exactly, but there's something to be said for a virtual amp that actually comes within shouting distance of replicating the sound that is advertised in the preset name.


otek

[jord]

If you're looking at it as a brand name replacement, then yes, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Nothing beats the real thing. However, if you're buying/using it because it sounds good and is versatile and gets you the sounds you're looking for, then we're talking a totally different story.

If anything, I used to do a bunch of sessions in my earlier days using a Rockman XPR. Didn't sound like any real amp I knew (although I dial up a Boston tone in snap if someone wanted one), but it was my sound.

Not to mention that having a Pod, GAP, Revalver, whatever, is no substitute for a decent tube pre to go through before the audio interface. That's when these modellers certain amp-like characteristics start to jump out.

jord

[otek]

If you're looking at it as a brand name replacement, then yes, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't. It just seems to me that if the programmers can actually get close to what they say they're trying to get close to, then that's an indicator they're doing something right, and chances are it also reflects on other part of their work.

I should be clear that I don't really use modeling amps as a preference, however they have saved my ass on a number of occasions when I get tracks to mix.

As for the Rockman, for better or worse, it created a very recognizable signature sound. My argument with certain modeling amps, on the other hand, is that the tones are very generic, and don't really come close to the characters I'm looking for.

Generally, however, it's like you said - you can't beat the real thing, and that's where I tend to turn most of the time.


otek

[jord]

Of course, when I said "you", it wasn't referring to you specifically. :)

It's not that I prefer using amp modelling to the real thing. It's quite the opposite most of the time. Thing is that I couldn't even afford some of the amps that the Pod X3 models (some of the boutique amps modeled are serious $Koin$!), let alone find the space to put them all... I'm fortunate enough to have been able to set up the project studio as I did.

In live situations, however, I will always want a real amp when I play, but the problem is that I'm often faced with such an inexperienced sound crew (especially in a church), that the guitar sounds like nothing more than a swarm of insects as soon as they start running things through the PA. That's the main reason I went for the Pod... to take back control of the sounds I want.

Something about the Pod blew me away as far as its character goes. I even managed to discover the plug-in version of it (Gearbox Plug-In) and plugged it into Logic. It definitely beats the snot out of GAP, and I still think that GAP is great. I wouldn't be surprised if it gives Revalver a run for the money as well (not saying that it's bad, but a little competition never hurts). After dialing in some ol' Hendrix like tones (such as Machine Gun and Bold as Love) as well as Robin Trower (Bridge of Sighs), Stevie Ray Vaughn and, of course, Eddie Van Halen (VH1 - using the Plexi Variac model with a phaser and delay) amongst others, I was hooked. Best part is that I can have them on my Pod at the same time. I'm gonna have fun at worship team rehearsal tonight. :D

jord

[otek]

I still use GAP every now and then.

I also use Guitar Rig 2, and Amplitube 2, however I have to say that I find Amplitube doesn't work as well for me as the others.

I think it's mostly the lack of distortion colors that bothers me about it.


otek

[jord]

That is what I am loving about the POD X3/Gearbox Plug-In. It's got colour.

Had my first live situation with it last night and it definitely performed.

jord

[otek]

That is what I am loving about the POD X3/Gearbox Plug-In. It's got colour.

Just to clarify, what I meant by "distortion colors" was the variety of different distortion flavors, not the character of each one. I find the Amplitube does have character, it's just that it doesn't have enough of a variety.

I marvel at the strangeness of this: I am actually in here discussing the finer points of clownfucking. Hell froze over. :Confused:


otek

[damionhill]

I am very interested in the Revalver MkIII. I have read a lot about it and can't wait to try it out. Sucks it isn't available for RTAS. Guitar Rig III is also very nice. I do like some of the tones I get out of that. I think I have all the amp sims minus Digis Eleven. Waves GT3, Amplitube, and Softube's Amp room.

Out of all I like the Guitar Rig and Waves GT3. But out of all guitar-amp realted stuff I prefer real amps and the sound of the room it's in. i always find my self trying to recreate that in the SIm. This is because I don't have an amp to use.

"Just to clarify, what I meant by "distortion colors" was the variety of different distortion flavors, not the character of each one." -Otek-

What I think Otek is trying to say is that perhaps the Tonal coloration is also the layers of tube simulated overtones? Amplitube does not have that. Responsiveness to dynamics... It doesn't really act like a real tube amp. That's why i am so looking forward to trying out this Peavey Revalver MKIII. I want to see if they have achieved what they say they have achieved.