ultra-short digital delay?

[Formyle of Ceres]

I'm mixing live-in-the-studio shows for a college radio station and I want to recreate some of my in-the-box tricks, like nudging the snare mic so it's in phase with the overheads. Where can I find a cheap digital delay, 1 or 2 channels, that can be adjusted in 1/10 ms increments or finer? Maybe I want something designed for chorus/flange effects?

[otek]

I should start by saying I find this type of thing a dubious practice at best, for a number of reasons, but if I were doing it I wouldn't be using a delay - especially if you are going for "cheap". The crappy I/O stages of even some fairly decent delays are guaranteed to destroy your snare tone.

Instead, how about the Little Labs IBP (http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html)? It's not exactly cheap, but it's versatile, built like a tank and will not fuck with your audio in any unintentional way. It's also completely analog and doubles as a world-class DI box.


otek

[Brendo]

the crappy A/D stages of even some fairly decent delays.... probably create more delay than you're wanting to make in the firstplace...

[otek]

the crappy A/D stages of even some fairly decent delays.... probably create more delay than you're wanting to make in the firstplace...

Excellent point.


otek

[6x2]

I'm mixing live-in-the-studio shows for a college radio station and I want to recreate some of my in-the-box tricks, like nudging the snare mic so it's in phase with the overheads. Where can I find a cheap digital delay, 1 or 2 channels, that can be adjusted in 1/10 ms increments or finer? Maybe I want something designed for chorus/flange effects?

Complete waste of time and effort, IMHO. Deal with it in another way.

Good luck.

6x2

[meLoCo_go]

Deal with it in another way.

Good luck.

6x2

That got me thinking. How about finding info about sound velocity in something like oil? You may build your own uber-cool analog delay line by placing a transducer and receiver and moving them around. (and yes I've heard of oiltank delays=))

[otek]

How about finding info about sound velocity in something like oil?

Why don't we just lower both drummer and kit into a huge vat of it?

:lol:


otek

[Formyle of Ceres]

I didn't ask if I SHOULD, as I'm already aware of the sonic tradeoffs, I just wanted a tip on a cheap delay box.

I suppose I could mod one of our spare 2-tracks to run at 4000 ips, but changing the tape every 10 seconds might be a drag.

[otek]

I didn't ask if I SHOULD, as I'm already aware of the sonic tradeoffs, I just wanted a tip on a cheap delay box.

Oh, sorry. My mistake. Here's one:

http://medias.milongamusic.com/Photos/Zoom/384545Z.jpg

The Alto Alphaverb is usually about 75 bucks, street.


otek

[Formyle of Ceres]

Kinda useless since it has no parameter controls. Sorry if you look down on this particular technique, but I find it useful if it's done correctly. I'll try someplace less silly.

[Tim Halligan]

Kinda useless since it has no parameter controls. Sorry if you look down on this particular technique, but I find it useful if it's done correctly. I'll try someplace less silly.


In a studio setting - where you have the opportunity to remix after the fact - I can see why you'd use this technique, but in a live situation, I suspect that this would be fraught with danger.

What happens if one of the mics gets moved?

It CAN happen.

You'd be - what's the word commonly used by some of us broadcast chaps? - Fucked.

:D

Cheers,
Tim

PS. I seem to remember that TC did a very basic stereo in/out delay that might have had sub-millisecond increments, as did AMS way back in the day. Or was it Lexicon?

PPS. Re: your "I'll find somewhere less silly" comment...

Get fucked prick.

Rude note to follow.

:doubledeuce:

[otek]

Kinda useless since it has no parameter controls.

It does have parameter control - via the "variation" knob.

Try all the variations, you might get lucky.

When you're done, you can start thinking about the real problems with this technique.

Best of luck with it.


otek



PS. When you said "someplace less silly", did you mean silly as in "giving solid advice, being blown off, and then expected to offer more advice"? That kind of silly?

[dikledoux]

What happens if one of the mics gets moved?

It CAN happen.

You'd be - what's the word commonly used by some of us broadcast chaps? - Fucked.
Or maybe, just maybe... you'd get the phase relationship you were looking for in the first place?

What's wrong with moving the mic(s) to fix phase issues rather than using a delay? Am I missing something?

dik

[otek]

What's wrong with moving the mic(s) to fix phase issues rather than using a delay? Am I missing something?

That's the way it's been done on more records than you and I can count.

The original poster seeks to duplicate the DAW trickery of nudging tracks for phase coherency, but in the analog realm. Several other posters alluded to the reasons why this may not be such a good idea, especially using a "cheap digital delay" (loss of fidelity, inadequate accuracy, etc.).

I believe in nudging tracks in a DAW, but only for correcting obvious problems. Most of the time, it solves one problem and creates another. Polarity switching is normally quite adequate. If one wants to further manipulate phase in the analog realm, I suggest using a method that preserves fidelity, like the Littlelabs IBP suggested earlier.


otek

[sqkychair]

I suppose I could mod one of our spare 2-tracks to run at 4000 ips, but changing the tape every 10 seconds might be a drag.

Yes, try this instead of something silly.

[otek]

I suppose I could mod one of our spare 2-tracks to run at 4000 ips, but changing the tape every 10 seconds might be a drag.

Yes, try this instead of something silly.


Actually, I thought that comment was funny.

Pity it sorta went downhill from there.


otek

[Calvin]

Instead, how about the Little Labs IBP (http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html)? It's not exactly cheap, but it's versatile, built like a tank and will not fuck with your audio in any unintentional way. It's also completely analog and doubles as a world-class DI box.


otek

Sheeeesh, I thought this particular bit of advice regarding the little labs unit was right on point. Completely ignored by the OP.

[Formyle of Ceres]

Not a fan of the IBP. I like time-aligning because it improves the ratio of snare sound to cymbal leakage by about 3 dB. Very useful for the kind of cymbal-bashing drummers I have to deal with. It also sounds more natural to my ears, although it can create a big spikey attack that causes downstream compressors to misbehave. Of course, it has to be done correctly and is best done in a DAW where you can zoom in and get sample-accurate placement. In an analog situation, you would do it by listening through headphones and using the Haas effect to find the exact delay setting. I'm working in a very controlled studio-type environment, no PA involved. Cheapo converters are fine, I don't need extended bandwidth on a snare.

It's a drag having to explain myself at length just because people don't like the question and assume I'm some kind of idiot. Anyway, an older multi-fx box would probably do it.

[otek]

people don't like the question and assume I'm some kind of idiot

With this last post, I think the jury's still out on that one.

I am wondering where to start myself.


otek

[Formyle of Ceres]

Don't worry about it, it's not as if I'm going to break into your studio in the middle of the night and time-align all your drum tracks.

[otek]

Don't worry about it, it's not as if I'm going to break into your studio in the middle of the night and time-align all your drum tracks.


I'm not sure I would let you in during daytime either.


otek

[Mixerman]

It's a drag having to explain myself at length just because people don't like the question and assume I'm some kind of idiot.

Dude. They don't assume you're an idiot because they don't LIKE the question. They assume you're an idiot BECAUSE of the question.

And actually, there's not all that much assuming going on. Knowing, morelike.

What's the old quote? "I'd rather shut my mouth and have people think I'm an idiot, than open it and have them know it."

This would be similar.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[nobby]

Or maybe, just maybe... you'd get the phase relationship you were looking for in the first place?

What's wrong with moving the mic(s) to fix phase issues rather than using a delay? Am I missing something?

dik

He was looking for a solution that was less obvious.

Now stop being so silly.

[Slipperman]

Ensoniq DP/4

Has a microdelays alg.

Probably not great AD/DA, but should work for what yer looking for.

Hey.

If you can make it work... you can make it work... God Bless.

I've heard of stranger things.

SM.

PS. Also has a whole shitload of OTHER useful stuff you can use in a myriad of ways. Can also process up to 4 separate channels of audio at once. You can configure it till the cows come home. Kind of a little "Swiss Army Knife" thingie. Bet ya can find one dirt cheap on ebay or some shit. I've got 2. Still use 'em all the time.

PPS. The PLUS model is balanced ins and out.

PPPS. The Behringer SHARK(DSP110) is $79.00 a channel new and may do whatcha need as well.

PPPPS. Also DP/2 baby brother on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ENSONIQ-DP-2-24-BIT-EFFECTS-PROCESSOR-W-MANUALS-MORE_W0QQitemZ380045917015QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 380045917015&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

[Formyle of Ceres]

Thank you Slipperman, I was looking at old multi-fx boxes and getting nowhere.

I'll just refrain from mentioning this technique in the future. In fact, I was putting you guys on. I don't use it. I put 1 mic on the whole kit and I stand over the drummer while he's playing and glare at him.

[Tim Halligan]

In fact, I was putting you guys on. I don't use it. I put 1 mic on the whole kit and I stand over the drummer while he's playing and glare at him.

Well...


Now that you've revealed your true colours, we'll stop thinking that you're an idiot.

:D

Cheers,
Tim