Goes211
November 8th, 2006, 01:14 PM
Hello all
I'd posted this elsewhere a while ago and Pounce had posted an excellent reply.
Hoping this is helpful info.
Meet the soundcheck veteran. I’ve been gigging a lot these last two years after a break of about five years from the road. The joy of playing live is what makes it all worthwile. It is the true reward of the musician to be allowed to perform your tunes to an audience. You write by yourself, you record and rehearse by yourself or with your bandmates. The gig is basically the step up from masturbation to sex. I am a sideman in these gigs (guitar and bvoxes), which I actually quite enjoy for a change, being able to serve the tunes and look at the whole thing with a broader perspective without the pressure the main artist has.
Let me set the stage for you : the artist is one of my best friends, he has released 6 or 7 albums (3 on a major label, the rest - as his latest we’re promoting now - on indies or his own with distribution through a major).
We draw about 500 people to the average gig, but with summer coming up we’re playing big festivals with crowds up to 10000. When we play out, we bring our own FOH engineer and one “backliner/stage hand” who is also our “road manager” – fancy but deserved title for a fantastic guy completely devoted to helping us out as much as humanly possible. We can’t yet afford drums and guitar techs, neither do we have our own monitors and light people. We send out a “required PA” sheet, and suggest a PA company to the promoter. We headline a lot of mini-festivals with three or four bands playing, but we still only get to play with the same PA about every other gig. All this so you get the idea of the level we are at, and I am guessing this is the average for quite a few pro or semi-pro musicians out there.
So anyway : back to the soundcheck : long gone is the mystique or glamour of doing a soundcheck. It’s just something you have to go through if you want the concert to be an enjoyable experience. Which brings us to the priorities of the soundcheck :
- priority number 1 : getting a great FOH sound (FOH = front of house, the mix through the main speakers for the audience if you prefer). If the FOH sound sucks, you can play your best gig and it will still be a bad gig.
- priority number 2 : getting a great stage sound in the monitors. If the performers can hear themselves comfortably, they’re likely to give a better performance. However, this is still pointless if priority 1 isn’t achieved.
- priority number 3 : if a compromise needs to be reached for lack of time or lack of equipment (such as not enough monitor mixes/busses), the main artist or the front man/woman gets priority. Yeah, I know, this sucks donkey balls. Get a helmet. As far as I know, most of the audience isn’t coming to see ME but my friend with the name on the poster. Get your ego in check. However, this is still pointless if priority 1 isn’t achieved.
- priority number 4 : make it an enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Meaning, can we achieve priorities 1, 2 and 3 without being assholes to FOH and monitors people, light people, promoters, stage hands, etc ? I played a gig just last night where we weren’t headlining, and the headlining star act were complete assholes to the crew, they’re a bunch of has-beens riding a recent revival wave, enacting their past fame and so-called r n’ r cred by treating everyone like dogshit, then coming on stage all gakked up like it’s a normal thing to do. A pathetic bunch, really. Anyway, our friendly and cooperative attitude with the sound and light crowd ensured we got better treatment. It’s not very cool to walk on stage, and the first thing you tell the monitors guy is : “this is the worst sound I’ve ever had”. Usually, people tend to NOT want to help you after these kinds of comments. In comparison, common courtesy HELPS A LOT. Here are some hints to try to achieve priorities 1 to 4…
- be on time. Even if it means YOU are going to have to WAIT. Keith Richards (or was it Charlie Watts ?) once said something like “40 years of Rolling Stones…5 years of action and 35 years waiting”. So you think you’re better than the Stones ?
- introduce yourself to the crew. “Hi, I’m Goes211, and I play guitar and sing bvoxes, how are you ? Oh, excuse me, what is your name ?”
- check what the dudes are busy with : there's no point insetting up your amps or drums if they haven’t finished setting up the PA yet. You’ll just make yourself a nuisance. Ask before you start lugging. Better for your back, and cooler for the crew. If in doubt, just ask : “hey guys, no rush or pressure, but any idea when you’ll be needing us to set up ?”
- setup is NOT the time to think of a new stage plot for the band. “Tried and tested” usually works best. you’re just asking for trouble if the keyboard player isn’t used to having the guitar player and his Marshall stack next to him. If you tell the PA guy “the bass goes there” (assuming you haven’t sent them a stage plot/layout plan before hand), it’s just going to be a hassle for him to change the lines and pull them across the stage if your change your mind. Most of the time, the PA people (I’m not talking about the engineers, I’m talking about the guys who lug the equipment and set it up on the stage, pull the lines, etc…) do an incredibly HARD job. They are here BEFORE we arrive and they leave long AFTER we’ve left the building. Be nice and show some respect. If they don’t show up, there’s no gig. And there is NO glory, autographs, glamour or groupies to be had for them.
- set up your equipment in a PRO way : no dangling cords. Make sure you have pro quality and long enough cords. Gaffer tape down everything that can be tripped on…
- The soundcheck is a COOPERATIVE effort to help out all the parties involved in getting the SOUND right to achieve their goal. SOUND. Does it say LIGHTcheck ? I didn’t think so. Light people, please avoid toying with your vari-lites while the band is setting up their equipment or simply trying to get through the soundcheck without killing each other or the monitors guy… Just give us some steady, non-flickering white or yellow lighting during soundcheck. You can have all the fun you want during the gig, and the audience will revel in your psychedelic endeavours. Hell, for all I now you’re going to make us look good. But for now, we’d like to NOT have to struggle just seeing the monitors and FOH people we are busy working with.
- stage levels : all bands ought to try to achieve what’s referred to as the elusive “natural balance” or “comfort zone” on stage where everyone hears himself (and the others) so he can perform best. Forget all the other rules and tatoo this one on your fat arm with a branding iron : TURN. IT. DOWN. Just ask the FOH and monitors guys, they’ll gladly carve it on your forehead with a tom-tom fork. How many of us can justify Jimi Hendrix levels ? I still remember the Woodstock movie (of course, that was before the days of the monitor mix) where Jimi’s band is playing, and they have a guy playing –cough…cough… - percussions… the poor sod is banging his bongos like there’s no tomorrow but all you can hear is the hum of the Marshalls… pathetic fucker… Today, playing too loud means EVERYONE needs to crank their volume and monitors up and it turns into an escalation. Time to introduce what is a bit of a mystery to me : most PA’s used to have “side monitors”. The “sides” were placed (duh !) on each side of the stage, facing the band, and they usually had some kind of general mix of the whole band. Which meant that if you had a basic mix of yourself in your own monitor and the “sides mix”, you could pretty much do ok. But most PA’s we run into don’t seem to have sides anymore these days…which means I need to ask a bit of everything else in my monitors, and myself louder if I want to be in the comfort zone. And I become part of the escalation race. What that means is that all the mics start to pick up A LOT more volume and the monitors and FOH people end up with a feedback accident waiting to happen. In such a situation, look at your tattoo : TURN. IT. DOWN.
- During soundcheck : be available for the FOH and monitors engineers : once soundcheck has started, this should be your ONLY preoccupation. WAIT for your fucking turn ! Soundcheck usually starts with the drums. Typically, the FOH engineer will ask for Kick, Snare, Toms, Hats, Overheads, pad/samplers, etc…separately and then together. Wait for the engineer’s instructions. If he needs you to hit the floor tom for an extra minute it’s because he’s trying to fix a problem likely coming from YOUR drums, you moron ! Hit the fucking floor tom and STFU. Then bass, then bass and drums. Then guitars or keys, then voxes. DO NOT PLAY when it is not your turn. You are being an ASSHOLE if you play when not asked. You are also being an asshole if you DON’T PLAY when asked. Open your fucking ears and LISTEN to what these people are asking ! If you are a guitar or keyboard player. : tell the FOH guy you are going to give him your loudest sound first so he can set his levels. Then proceed to do so and DO NOT change your levels without first warning both FOH and monitors.
- Which brings me to : soundcheck mystery number 2 : it still routinely happens that the FOH and/or monitors engineers DON’T plug in a mic to communicate with the band on stage. What this means is a deaf and dumb dialogue where nobody hears each other and EVERYBODY is frustrated – this includes bad communication between the FOH and monitors, which usually includes some patching mistakes between stage and FOH. Our drummer (well, he is a drummer, right) still has not understood that if he’s not talking INTO a fucking mic, our FOH guy 50 yards away will NOT hear him. It’s a running joke for us now and we place bets on the time before he realizes. A good and efficient soundcheck should be 1. the FOH engineer opens some vocals mics so the band can communicate with him. 2. He asks if everybody can hear him (this might mean a designated band member to communicate with him). Then he goes through every instrument. 3. In the meantime, the monitors guy gets a rough mix for every instrument. 4. the band plays a tune together for FOH adjustments 5. We stop and each musician gets to ask the monitor guys some corrections. 6. Some instruments may need to play separately for final FOH adjustments. 7. End the soundcheck with the first tune of your set. That will avoid you starting with a “surprise tune” for the FOH guy.
- BTW : there’s no point in questioning what the FOH guy does because YOU CAN NOT JUDGE HIS WORK FROM THE STAGE. Don’t trust your friends, they don’t know shit. Don’t trust your girlfriend or wife, there’s never enough of your guitar in the mix for her. But if many people come to you after a gig to tell you it was too loud or that the sound was terrible, that’s a hint.
It's also a good idea to thank everyone before you leave. You'll hopefully be working with these people again. It costs you nothing, and makes everybody feel better.
Ultimately, the sound check’s purpose is to make everybody’s experience of the gig a good and memorable one. Generally, it’s ok to be demanding and to have a desire for perfection. In real gig life, the average sound check lasts about 30 minutes (if you play festivals, all you get is a "line-check" - which means testing all the lines and mics work, and then you're off). So you just might have to make do with an “average” situation which may be improved upon during the gig if everyone (FOH, monitors AND musicians) pays attention to each other. We always ask the monitor guys to watch us during the couple first tunes. It’s amazing that they often IGNORE that. Remember the first lie of rock n' roll : "it'll sound better with the crowd". Oh well. Here I am. Fucking former Jr. Rebel playing Mr. Givalesson. Still, I’m sure I’ve forgotten many points. Please chime in. Coolio
live sound engineers obviously want to make bands sound good 100% of the time, and are usually working shitty long hous and are not frequently thanked for thier work.
if you are a band, be on time. that's part of the gig. find out when the space opens, when crew are there to receive you (ie: when are you expected), and who you are to talk to.
talk to the right people. the foh guy doesn't care about "the door" and the manager of the club doesn't usually know how many compressors you have.
make friends with everybody. here's two words to practive using.. please or thank you. give that a try.
have a stage plot, input list, and tech rider as well as a hospitality rider and a contract. if you don't know what these are yet you have some homework to do. again, with respect to these, have them current and correct. and ask the right people questions about their respective roles in fulfilling these riders and contracts. and that please and thank you thing.
imho, i want to get a stage monitor situation happening first as the stage volume will affect how i mix the foh. and the onstage mix(es) will affect the bands performance, so i address it first. the foh mix will happen later, and will change with an audience in the room as well. so that's for the foh guy to worry about during the show.
talking to the foh guy politely (and by name since you've introduced yourself, thanked him profusely, and know his favorite drink) and get a monitor mix that is agreeable to the whole band.
do not send a girlfriend to "help" with a mix
don't hurt the gear onstage or act like some sort of prima donna. that will NOT get the foh guy in the mood to help you to sound any better.
if there is any critical gear for "your original sound", then bring it with you or make sure it's there in your technical rider. and then call and confirm again that it's really there and working and that there aren't unnaceptable substitutions.
bring extra stuff, like spare picks, sticks, cables, etc.
have GAFF tape and not duct tape. if you put duct tape on MY cables you will leave with a new asshole.
you might want to provide a cd of your band to the venue when booking the show so that the sound guy can hear what you think a mix of your material should sound like. he can then bear that in mind when mixing the live show. i always think the mix of a band live should be similar to the mix on a cd, even when the performances or arrangements are modified for the live show. that's cool, improvisation and all, but the mix from the cd is probably a great starting point for the live sound engineer.
here's my "trick" when setting monitor levels -
first, i check the channels the same way every engineer does. and i start with drums. like everyone does. drums are always the lowest numbered channels on my board and i work my way up. (and i DO have a talkback mic on). so after i have something like the kick in the house and routed properly with compression and whatnot, i ask each bandmember who wants that sound in their monitor to raise their hand. (related to how many monitor mixes there are). i say leave your hand up if you want this sound in your monitor, and lower your hand when it is loud enough. i then send that sound out on enough auxes to cover all band members. (i do this when there are more mixes, like more than four or five). then go instrument by instrument and repeat until each mix has at least all of the elements needed at each monitor position. then when the whole band plays, we tweak the volumes, but the band has already technically chosen what is in each wedge and at what volume, so we have a good start. as you tweak from here, you can cue up each monitor mix and hear what you are sending them so it's easier to see what they are looking for.
after those monitor levels are set, you can work on foh. it will be different with an audience, but you get all the routing sussed out. done right, the band is happy, monitor level setting has went quickly, and you can worry about making it sound kick ass. should be relatively easy at this point.
but for getting the monitor levels set, having the band be polite, on time, not play or talk all at once, etc. is important. and why do folks who scream their vocals always whisper into mics during soundchecks? answer - they are clueless assholes.
i think i'm just rambling now, i'm at work on a break.
I'd posted this elsewhere a while ago and Pounce had posted an excellent reply.
Hoping this is helpful info.
Meet the soundcheck veteran. I’ve been gigging a lot these last two years after a break of about five years from the road. The joy of playing live is what makes it all worthwile. It is the true reward of the musician to be allowed to perform your tunes to an audience. You write by yourself, you record and rehearse by yourself or with your bandmates. The gig is basically the step up from masturbation to sex. I am a sideman in these gigs (guitar and bvoxes), which I actually quite enjoy for a change, being able to serve the tunes and look at the whole thing with a broader perspective without the pressure the main artist has.
Let me set the stage for you : the artist is one of my best friends, he has released 6 or 7 albums (3 on a major label, the rest - as his latest we’re promoting now - on indies or his own with distribution through a major).
We draw about 500 people to the average gig, but with summer coming up we’re playing big festivals with crowds up to 10000. When we play out, we bring our own FOH engineer and one “backliner/stage hand” who is also our “road manager” – fancy but deserved title for a fantastic guy completely devoted to helping us out as much as humanly possible. We can’t yet afford drums and guitar techs, neither do we have our own monitors and light people. We send out a “required PA” sheet, and suggest a PA company to the promoter. We headline a lot of mini-festivals with three or four bands playing, but we still only get to play with the same PA about every other gig. All this so you get the idea of the level we are at, and I am guessing this is the average for quite a few pro or semi-pro musicians out there.
So anyway : back to the soundcheck : long gone is the mystique or glamour of doing a soundcheck. It’s just something you have to go through if you want the concert to be an enjoyable experience. Which brings us to the priorities of the soundcheck :
- priority number 1 : getting a great FOH sound (FOH = front of house, the mix through the main speakers for the audience if you prefer). If the FOH sound sucks, you can play your best gig and it will still be a bad gig.
- priority number 2 : getting a great stage sound in the monitors. If the performers can hear themselves comfortably, they’re likely to give a better performance. However, this is still pointless if priority 1 isn’t achieved.
- priority number 3 : if a compromise needs to be reached for lack of time or lack of equipment (such as not enough monitor mixes/busses), the main artist or the front man/woman gets priority. Yeah, I know, this sucks donkey balls. Get a helmet. As far as I know, most of the audience isn’t coming to see ME but my friend with the name on the poster. Get your ego in check. However, this is still pointless if priority 1 isn’t achieved.
- priority number 4 : make it an enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Meaning, can we achieve priorities 1, 2 and 3 without being assholes to FOH and monitors people, light people, promoters, stage hands, etc ? I played a gig just last night where we weren’t headlining, and the headlining star act were complete assholes to the crew, they’re a bunch of has-beens riding a recent revival wave, enacting their past fame and so-called r n’ r cred by treating everyone like dogshit, then coming on stage all gakked up like it’s a normal thing to do. A pathetic bunch, really. Anyway, our friendly and cooperative attitude with the sound and light crowd ensured we got better treatment. It’s not very cool to walk on stage, and the first thing you tell the monitors guy is : “this is the worst sound I’ve ever had”. Usually, people tend to NOT want to help you after these kinds of comments. In comparison, common courtesy HELPS A LOT. Here are some hints to try to achieve priorities 1 to 4…
- be on time. Even if it means YOU are going to have to WAIT. Keith Richards (or was it Charlie Watts ?) once said something like “40 years of Rolling Stones…5 years of action and 35 years waiting”. So you think you’re better than the Stones ?
- introduce yourself to the crew. “Hi, I’m Goes211, and I play guitar and sing bvoxes, how are you ? Oh, excuse me, what is your name ?”
- check what the dudes are busy with : there's no point insetting up your amps or drums if they haven’t finished setting up the PA yet. You’ll just make yourself a nuisance. Ask before you start lugging. Better for your back, and cooler for the crew. If in doubt, just ask : “hey guys, no rush or pressure, but any idea when you’ll be needing us to set up ?”
- setup is NOT the time to think of a new stage plot for the band. “Tried and tested” usually works best. you’re just asking for trouble if the keyboard player isn’t used to having the guitar player and his Marshall stack next to him. If you tell the PA guy “the bass goes there” (assuming you haven’t sent them a stage plot/layout plan before hand), it’s just going to be a hassle for him to change the lines and pull them across the stage if your change your mind. Most of the time, the PA people (I’m not talking about the engineers, I’m talking about the guys who lug the equipment and set it up on the stage, pull the lines, etc…) do an incredibly HARD job. They are here BEFORE we arrive and they leave long AFTER we’ve left the building. Be nice and show some respect. If they don’t show up, there’s no gig. And there is NO glory, autographs, glamour or groupies to be had for them.
- set up your equipment in a PRO way : no dangling cords. Make sure you have pro quality and long enough cords. Gaffer tape down everything that can be tripped on…
- The soundcheck is a COOPERATIVE effort to help out all the parties involved in getting the SOUND right to achieve their goal. SOUND. Does it say LIGHTcheck ? I didn’t think so. Light people, please avoid toying with your vari-lites while the band is setting up their equipment or simply trying to get through the soundcheck without killing each other or the monitors guy… Just give us some steady, non-flickering white or yellow lighting during soundcheck. You can have all the fun you want during the gig, and the audience will revel in your psychedelic endeavours. Hell, for all I now you’re going to make us look good. But for now, we’d like to NOT have to struggle just seeing the monitors and FOH people we are busy working with.
- stage levels : all bands ought to try to achieve what’s referred to as the elusive “natural balance” or “comfort zone” on stage where everyone hears himself (and the others) so he can perform best. Forget all the other rules and tatoo this one on your fat arm with a branding iron : TURN. IT. DOWN. Just ask the FOH and monitors guys, they’ll gladly carve it on your forehead with a tom-tom fork. How many of us can justify Jimi Hendrix levels ? I still remember the Woodstock movie (of course, that was before the days of the monitor mix) where Jimi’s band is playing, and they have a guy playing –cough…cough… - percussions… the poor sod is banging his bongos like there’s no tomorrow but all you can hear is the hum of the Marshalls… pathetic fucker… Today, playing too loud means EVERYONE needs to crank their volume and monitors up and it turns into an escalation. Time to introduce what is a bit of a mystery to me : most PA’s used to have “side monitors”. The “sides” were placed (duh !) on each side of the stage, facing the band, and they usually had some kind of general mix of the whole band. Which meant that if you had a basic mix of yourself in your own monitor and the “sides mix”, you could pretty much do ok. But most PA’s we run into don’t seem to have sides anymore these days…which means I need to ask a bit of everything else in my monitors, and myself louder if I want to be in the comfort zone. And I become part of the escalation race. What that means is that all the mics start to pick up A LOT more volume and the monitors and FOH people end up with a feedback accident waiting to happen. In such a situation, look at your tattoo : TURN. IT. DOWN.
- During soundcheck : be available for the FOH and monitors engineers : once soundcheck has started, this should be your ONLY preoccupation. WAIT for your fucking turn ! Soundcheck usually starts with the drums. Typically, the FOH engineer will ask for Kick, Snare, Toms, Hats, Overheads, pad/samplers, etc…separately and then together. Wait for the engineer’s instructions. If he needs you to hit the floor tom for an extra minute it’s because he’s trying to fix a problem likely coming from YOUR drums, you moron ! Hit the fucking floor tom and STFU. Then bass, then bass and drums. Then guitars or keys, then voxes. DO NOT PLAY when it is not your turn. You are being an ASSHOLE if you play when not asked. You are also being an asshole if you DON’T PLAY when asked. Open your fucking ears and LISTEN to what these people are asking ! If you are a guitar or keyboard player. : tell the FOH guy you are going to give him your loudest sound first so he can set his levels. Then proceed to do so and DO NOT change your levels without first warning both FOH and monitors.
- Which brings me to : soundcheck mystery number 2 : it still routinely happens that the FOH and/or monitors engineers DON’T plug in a mic to communicate with the band on stage. What this means is a deaf and dumb dialogue where nobody hears each other and EVERYBODY is frustrated – this includes bad communication between the FOH and monitors, which usually includes some patching mistakes between stage and FOH. Our drummer (well, he is a drummer, right) still has not understood that if he’s not talking INTO a fucking mic, our FOH guy 50 yards away will NOT hear him. It’s a running joke for us now and we place bets on the time before he realizes. A good and efficient soundcheck should be 1. the FOH engineer opens some vocals mics so the band can communicate with him. 2. He asks if everybody can hear him (this might mean a designated band member to communicate with him). Then he goes through every instrument. 3. In the meantime, the monitors guy gets a rough mix for every instrument. 4. the band plays a tune together for FOH adjustments 5. We stop and each musician gets to ask the monitor guys some corrections. 6. Some instruments may need to play separately for final FOH adjustments. 7. End the soundcheck with the first tune of your set. That will avoid you starting with a “surprise tune” for the FOH guy.
- BTW : there’s no point in questioning what the FOH guy does because YOU CAN NOT JUDGE HIS WORK FROM THE STAGE. Don’t trust your friends, they don’t know shit. Don’t trust your girlfriend or wife, there’s never enough of your guitar in the mix for her. But if many people come to you after a gig to tell you it was too loud or that the sound was terrible, that’s a hint.
It's also a good idea to thank everyone before you leave. You'll hopefully be working with these people again. It costs you nothing, and makes everybody feel better.
Ultimately, the sound check’s purpose is to make everybody’s experience of the gig a good and memorable one. Generally, it’s ok to be demanding and to have a desire for perfection. In real gig life, the average sound check lasts about 30 minutes (if you play festivals, all you get is a "line-check" - which means testing all the lines and mics work, and then you're off). So you just might have to make do with an “average” situation which may be improved upon during the gig if everyone (FOH, monitors AND musicians) pays attention to each other. We always ask the monitor guys to watch us during the couple first tunes. It’s amazing that they often IGNORE that. Remember the first lie of rock n' roll : "it'll sound better with the crowd". Oh well. Here I am. Fucking former Jr. Rebel playing Mr. Givalesson. Still, I’m sure I’ve forgotten many points. Please chime in. Coolio
live sound engineers obviously want to make bands sound good 100% of the time, and are usually working shitty long hous and are not frequently thanked for thier work.
if you are a band, be on time. that's part of the gig. find out when the space opens, when crew are there to receive you (ie: when are you expected), and who you are to talk to.
talk to the right people. the foh guy doesn't care about "the door" and the manager of the club doesn't usually know how many compressors you have.
make friends with everybody. here's two words to practive using.. please or thank you. give that a try.
have a stage plot, input list, and tech rider as well as a hospitality rider and a contract. if you don't know what these are yet you have some homework to do. again, with respect to these, have them current and correct. and ask the right people questions about their respective roles in fulfilling these riders and contracts. and that please and thank you thing.
imho, i want to get a stage monitor situation happening first as the stage volume will affect how i mix the foh. and the onstage mix(es) will affect the bands performance, so i address it first. the foh mix will happen later, and will change with an audience in the room as well. so that's for the foh guy to worry about during the show.
talking to the foh guy politely (and by name since you've introduced yourself, thanked him profusely, and know his favorite drink) and get a monitor mix that is agreeable to the whole band.
do not send a girlfriend to "help" with a mix
don't hurt the gear onstage or act like some sort of prima donna. that will NOT get the foh guy in the mood to help you to sound any better.
if there is any critical gear for "your original sound", then bring it with you or make sure it's there in your technical rider. and then call and confirm again that it's really there and working and that there aren't unnaceptable substitutions.
bring extra stuff, like spare picks, sticks, cables, etc.
have GAFF tape and not duct tape. if you put duct tape on MY cables you will leave with a new asshole.
you might want to provide a cd of your band to the venue when booking the show so that the sound guy can hear what you think a mix of your material should sound like. he can then bear that in mind when mixing the live show. i always think the mix of a band live should be similar to the mix on a cd, even when the performances or arrangements are modified for the live show. that's cool, improvisation and all, but the mix from the cd is probably a great starting point for the live sound engineer.
here's my "trick" when setting monitor levels -
first, i check the channels the same way every engineer does. and i start with drums. like everyone does. drums are always the lowest numbered channels on my board and i work my way up. (and i DO have a talkback mic on). so after i have something like the kick in the house and routed properly with compression and whatnot, i ask each bandmember who wants that sound in their monitor to raise their hand. (related to how many monitor mixes there are). i say leave your hand up if you want this sound in your monitor, and lower your hand when it is loud enough. i then send that sound out on enough auxes to cover all band members. (i do this when there are more mixes, like more than four or five). then go instrument by instrument and repeat until each mix has at least all of the elements needed at each monitor position. then when the whole band plays, we tweak the volumes, but the band has already technically chosen what is in each wedge and at what volume, so we have a good start. as you tweak from here, you can cue up each monitor mix and hear what you are sending them so it's easier to see what they are looking for.
after those monitor levels are set, you can work on foh. it will be different with an audience, but you get all the routing sussed out. done right, the band is happy, monitor level setting has went quickly, and you can worry about making it sound kick ass. should be relatively easy at this point.
but for getting the monitor levels set, having the band be polite, on time, not play or talk all at once, etc. is important. and why do folks who scream their vocals always whisper into mics during soundchecks? answer - they are clueless assholes.
i think i'm just rambling now, i'm at work on a break.