Roast Away

[FredSanford]

This forum is an incredible resource! I look forward to the feedback.

[FredSanford]

I guess it would make it easier if I attached the song.:Uh oh: :Uh oh:

Here it is.

[bunnerabb]

I'd steady up the stuttered drum beat to a straight 4/4, biggenate the guitars and see if here's any actual tones over 800 Hz on them and GET RID OF THE FRIGHT WIG ON THE CYMBALS

I dug it, though.

[dikledoux]

The guitar break at 2:40 is missing something. It sounds like some parts were muted - it's tiny in comparison to most of the song. The change coming out of the "cannot let this go" part is odd, unsettling. Don't know if that's bad or not, but it doesn't seem to resolve properly before you get back to the top. Also the guitars being wide ALL the time seems forced (note to self... <g> I'm about to make this same move and realize I need to make the guitar's stereo image part of the arrangement mechanism).

These are meant to be constructive suggestions - not to slag. I think it's strong and would like to hear it go the extra mile.

dik

[FredSanford]

Cool Thanks guys. I am not playing on the song. I just recorded and mixed it. The artist insisted on the wide panning of the guitars. The guitar break may sound thinner because we didn't overdub it. There are no muted parts. Maybe I should copy the guitar chords from a few bars back underneath it. That might keep it thick in that particular spot.

About the change after "cannot let this go"....
it is part of this artists style. I have worked with him on many projects and he is fond of stuff like that. I agree it is odd sounding, but it grew on me after a few listens. Analyzing it on a purely harmonic level shows it to be a very tame dorian mode cadence, so if it sounds odd it must be mix related. I will think about it some more.

THE BIGGENATOR sounds like a cool idea for a plugin or a male enhancement product. I hope Slippy has that trademarked.

[FredSanford]

Okay I worked on those cymbals and guitars. The revised version is in the first post. The old version is in the second.
Thanks Bunnerabb, hope I can return the favor sometime.

[Cheech]

Good Job Fred...Im digging it.

If I wrote the tune...I would cut the intro a little shorter, but thats me, and that has no reflection of the Job you did with the mix. I really dig the revised mix.

I feel like you did a GREAT job mixing all the vox, and I am somewhat envious of your vocal mix : /......LOL!

Good job man!

[FredSanford]

Thanks Cheech.

[EyreSpace]

Cool song, I like it a lot. Vocal and delays are nice. Are those real drums? Those toms rock! Bet the bass player loves the mix, it's huge up the middle. The guitars seem late, or maybe lacking energy, especially compared to the bass. I keep waiting for a killer solo....

[FredSanford]

Yes they are real drums recorded in my living room. sm57s on the toms. A burning guitar solo would be nice and this guitarist/singer has the chops, but it seems the kids don't go for that stuff these days. The band is literally a month old and is made up of Snake River Conspiracy drummer Matt Lucich, Leo Larson(guitar/vox) and Shane Pettersen(bass) both from Zeromind. The band is called United by Failure and they have a myspace page that features two other songs recorded the same day....

http://www.myspace.com/unitedbyfailure

I hope I get to do a whole CD for them they are a pleasure to work with.

[EyreSpace]

Thanks for the link, I'm off to listen to the other tunes.

[Mixerman]

This forum is an incredible resource! I look forward to the feedback.

There is a way to make cymbals loud, without them being so sizzling hot that they hurt. It takes a little work sometimes, but if I had to guess the EQ boost on these cymbals is at about 8k. They are fierce and relentless, and in my estimation are ruining what is a fairly decent mix otherwise.

I'm not sure what you're starting with, but there sounds to me like there is an abundence of EQ on the overhead mics. Particularly in the high end. They are too aggressive and too loud to boot. If you are indeed boosting the shit out of 6-8k, try backing that off and instead boosting a very broad 16k. You can also add some presence frequencies (between 800hz and 1.5khz) to give the cymbals some beef, which will soften the brassy aggressive and distorted sound that is happening right now.

I'm also wondering if you're not just brightenning the shit out of every drum. It sounds like there is a high ennd EQ bump on the toms too. That would cause this problem too. The bottom line is, they're too bright!

I love the very loud "call" vocals (as in call and response) during the prechorus, but they are drowning out the guitars. This becomes a bit of a dillemma, because if you bring up the guitars in that section the vocals aren't as loud any more. Still, there is a balance issue there, and you never want your track to be eradicated in this manner.

You might want to tail those vocals in a little bit (if far left is 7 o'clock and far right is 5 o'clock, then bring them in to around 8:30 and 3:30 respectively), giving the far left and right to the guitars. However, even after doing that you will still need to bring those guitars up.

One thing you might consider is giving those "call" vocals a chorus or flange effect. This will helpt them cut, and will allow you to bring them down slightly, but still pop nicely like they are now.

In the chorus, when the "call" vocals are holding out the word "go," I think you should ride them down slightly, they don't need to be as loud as the rest of the vocals. Once the "g" has sounded on the word "go", it is merely a vowel being held. Once that note has been established, the listener will know it's there, without it having to be full front and center. The "response" needs to take over there.

I like the song.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[FredSanford]

Thanks Mixerman. I will get after it and see what I can do and post another version when I get the chance.

[FredSanford]

Okay Mixerman,
Pulled down the 8k on the overheads and toms and yes it was 8k that was being boosted. Guilty as charged. Made the panning adjustments on the pre-chorus, did some automation on the guitars and vocals in the call/response section. I tried flanger and chorus on the vocal harmonies, but it didn't work for me.
Let me know what you think when you get a chance. I really appreciate the help. The updated version is attached to this reply.

P.S. I am suspecting that there are some problems with acoustic treatment in my room here that are causing me to boost the highs. I don't want to make excuses, but I have had the issue come up before.

[dwoz]

THis is my first listen. I didn't read mixerman's critique.

I'm not "offended" by this mix...the balances are good, everything's discernable.

I do, however, have one observation. This is another mix/production that "proves" to me that a song cannot really actually rise, energy-wise, over the top of whatever the singer is capable of setting.

In this, the singer is setting a fairly low energy level...intensity is low. That's the "gate" through which the rest of the tune is scaled.

Do you think a more intense performance is available?

dwoz

[Mixerman]

Okay Mixerman,
Pulled down the 8k on the overheads and toms and yes it was 8k that was being boosted. Guilty as charged. Made the panning adjustments on the pre-chorus, did some automation on the guitars and vocals in the call/response section. I tried flanger and chorus on the vocal harmonies, but it didn't work for me.
Let me know what you think when you get a chance. I really appreciate the help. The updated version is attached to this reply.

P.S. I am suspecting that there are some problems with acoustic treatment in my room here that are causing me to boost the highs. I don't want to make excuses, but I have had the issue come up before.

This is WAY better. Now, what happens if you bring the overheads down 2db? Do your drums go dark? Or is it better?

Do you have a hi hat mic on? If so, what happens when you turn it off? Can the snare come up a db?

You might even consider giving the crunch guitars a 1/2db-1db boost. If your dare!

I'm not asking you to actually answer these questions. I want you to make some of these adjustments and see if they improve the mix for you.

Mixerman

[Mixerman]

THis is my first listen. I didn't read mixerman's critique.

I'm not "offended" by this mix...the balances are good, everything's discernable.

dwoz

Are you making this comment based on the first version or the latest version?

Mixerman

[dwoz]

Are you making this comment based on the first version or the latest version?

Mixerman

latest.


dwoz

[FredSanford]

Dwoz,
I do think better performances are available for sure, particularly in regard to the vocal. It isn't a matter of the singer's capabilities, it is a matter of time available. We recorded 5 other songs the same day. We didn't have the luxury of time, so we made the best of what we had. They needed a strong demo and I wanted to work on my mixing and recording chops. Thanks to the band and the generous people on this forum I am learning and having a great time doing it.

Mixerman,
I will certainly take your suggestions to heart. I agree the mix is way better, and of course I will work on it further and see what else I can squeeze out of it with my modest knowledge. Thanks again for your specificity and clarity.

Cheers

[ajcamlet]

cool tune!

Bet you dont need that hi-hat mic. I think there are some serious AT artifacts at about 2:10 in the bridge (and other places actually) - but maybe you want that ? Is the dudes pitch bad, or are you using more as an effect?

Does the intro need to be that long before the vox come in? Sound like you could easily cut in in half *or* maybe develop that lead guitar melody when the rhythm gits come in.

who knows.