live sound - what do you like to mix on?

[pounce]

i'm still figuring out if i prefer to mix on digital or analog myself. i have a great digital mixer at home, i love them in the studio for sure. i have spent a LOT of time behind yamaha large format consoles, mostly the 3500's - lots of places i go seem to have them. so if only out of familiarity, i'd say i still slightly prefer to mix on a nice analog board. given that, i do want 8 subgroups, i want vca's, and i want matrixes. i want the amenities you get on a 3500 or better mixer - great control of pre/post all over the place, stuff like that. decent quality. i'm getting to be a -little- bit of a snob just in that i've worked with good gear and i've worked on lesser gear and gear does make a difference. give me a nice large format yamaha or midas board and i'm going to be a happy boy. the sound good, i enjoy the ease of use of their topology, and i can get around fast. soon i may be as fast on the yamaha digital boards live, but until i'm sure i'm -as fast- on those as i am on the analog boards i'm saying a large format analog board is still at the top of my list. (loading in a pm1d still beats moving a cadac anyday, though). i suspect digital will win me over, i do like the pm5d and 1d. so i thought i'd ask, what do you guys want to mix on and why? what features make your job easier?

[burnsy]

Well being at the lower end of the spectrum its nice to work with anything that has good control of post / pre and also stereo returns and groups on it at the moment the only chance I get to do that is on a Soundcraft K3 in the theatre which we are soon to be changing to a pm5d but I dont think I will be around for that. In the live bands venue I have been begging for an yamaha O1V but alas they have got a New spirit live 16 channel.
Im not that good on bigger consoles yet but I feel the need for them with wanting to do things that my desk cant actually do at the moment.

[studjo]

no question - after 2 years of DM1000 and a few gigs with the new Yammy thingy (CL7M or something cryptic like that)

ANALOG is the way to go - I prefer the sound - how you can mangle it - how it feels.

Digital mixing is just boring :Cry:
but I like the weight of digital

Jo

[Jason Phair]

Give me a PM5D anyfuckingdayoftheweek.

Give me a Soundcraft that's not a Series V and I might eat your family.


In the end, I'll mix by physically moving resistors around if I have to, but the title said "what do you like?"

Simply for the power/size/sound combination, it's the 5D.


Purely sonics...XL3 or a Pro4.

[Dr. Bob]

Don't really like live mixing on digital... then again, the only digi-board I've mixed on is my 02R... too much damn shit to the pages and all... tooooooo slow to tweak just a little thingy here, a little thingy there...

I do love the fact that there ain't shit to pack in though. Maybe if I had a chance to work on the 5D's I'd fall in love...

Til' then... Gimme a fukin' Midas... Don't get me wrong, I'll mix on whatever ya' got... but I'm a greedy bitch... I'll take a big assed, sweet, old, heavy back breakin', ball bustin' Midas on an EZ-Tilt, over any other analog, if I can get it.

I prefer VCA's but shit, sometimes yer' lucky when you walk in, to find half the channel strips working and a 2 buss that works... I at least wanna' have a coupla' subgroups, preferably 8. With 8 groups and 8 VCA's I'm happy and won't bitch too much unless the inserts are for crap. Mute groups are another thing that makes my day go easier, but I know where the faders are and I can pull em' as fast as my winky if I don't have em.

The thing that just scares the shit outa' me about digital is the software... software can, and does glitch... if the board takes a software shit right in the middle of a gig... WTF do you do?!? You gotta shut the whole show down until you reboot... nasty proposition... but I know reliability's getting better.

Wasn't it a digital board that the Stones were using, that took a shit right before half-time at the Super Bowl?

[macfeedback]

I like analog, it is the best and will remain so for many, many years.

Analog consoles are more logical than digital, one can follow the signal flow.

Digital consoles are being sold on "smaller footprint, lighter weight, more self contained effects, blah blah." than analog.

Show me one digital console that is sold on superior sonics and improved ergonomics over an analog console.

Nada!

I'm talking in the realm of Midas Heritage, Yammie 3K5, 4 or 5 K, etc, etc.

Of the Yammies, the 1D is somewhat ergonomic but a fairly big footprint, the 5D is kinda sucky ergonomics wise but a smaller footprint, the 2000D should never be seen in a live environment, very small footprint and an ergonomic POS, cheaper though.

Sonically they all sound really harsh even compared to Yammie analogs which sound harsh compared to the Brit consoles.

Then there is the dumbass fact that if you save your settings on a 1D and then try to import them to a 5D you may as well stick your cock in the Grand Canyon.

NovaSon.......

Dudes, stick to lighting consoles.

DigiCo, now we are talking. Ergonomically pretty damn good, sonically sweet. More there than the rest.

Have yet to meet up with the digital offerings from Midas, Soundcraft or others but tomorrow is another day.

[clicktrack]

Interesting....

I put a Yamaha DM2K in the truck from the perspective that we'd be doing more capture work and post-work. I did select it, though, because, at the time, I liked the layout, coming from an analogue world.

Lately we've been doing more and more live to broadcast work. And I've found that I actually do like using the DM2K for live.

I'll ad some caveats, though:
1) I prefer using outboard preamps...I dunno, but I just don't like the sound of the Yamaha pres...the word brittle comes to mind.
2) You also have to know a few shortcuts to get to things faster and
3) admittedly, the 24 faders becomes annoying (i always find that the stage patch always works out JUST so that the horns are split between ch. 24 and 25...without fail!!!)

In general, I really don't mind it despite these.

I've used an Innovason and, despite some companies I know using it for live, I find I don't like it. Too much thinking involved in order to do the basics. Also too many ways to screw yourself unless either you personally configured it or you're intimately familiar with how someone else set up that particular console.

I agree...the Digico is very good from what I've seen and played with, but then again, I've never had to mix a show on it. To me, that's the proof in the pudding.

The benefits of digital have already been stated: smaller footprint, recallability. THese two were critical in my decision. I have a small truck. I needed a big input console with a small footprint. As well, we also find ourselves doing a tonne of festival work...you have a standard festival plot, you soundcheck 3 or 4 bands in reverse order (when you get a sound check) and then run the show. I find that come showtime, when I'm dealing with both the stage crew as well as a video company, my "between show" time gets seriously cut down fighting all the fires. Being able to recall my soundcheck as a starting point is a serious benefit to me....

So yes, I'd probably be happy with an analogue, but with the situations that I'm finding myself in, I definitely prefer the digital.

[Jason Phair]

Ah, the DM2k. Live, I find it useful for only IEM's. Maybe theatre?

Agreed on the Innovasons. Sounds like dick, feels like dick, works like dick (well, not mine. My dick works just fine, thank you).


I'm torn on the M7CL. It's very fast, but the sonics....ehh. The busses sound alright, but you simply cannot push the pre's hard at all.


I am very interested in working on some of the Digico desks, as well as Digidesign's Venue.

[pounce]

the innovasun is the only digital board i've actually seen freeze up at a live show. scared the hell out of me, glad it wasn't me mixing that day. past that, i didn't see much about it to like. so i'll take a pass on them.

i would like to try a few other digital boards, like the new midas one. see if i like them well or not.

the local big production company here in town does symphony gigs with a dm2000. seems like a weird fit to me. i own one and love it in the studio, but it wouldn't be my first choice as a live board. (at least for standard music events, you could use it fine for business theatre of stuff like that).

[Scodiddly]

I'm happy enough to have a variable-frequency low-cut. I'm into a weird phase where most EQs I use don't seem to do much - if I don't have an appropriate mic on the source already, the EQ seems to do very little.

But then maybe it's the boards I've been using, mostly mid-range analog. I ought to drag out my old DDA Interface to see how it fares... or just use the M7CL to see how digital sounds.

[pounce]

yeah, stuff like the variable frequency low cut on the yamaha 3500 is a spoiler for me. now i want that on every damn board i'm on. i work in two theatres a lot, one with a 3500 and the other with a m2000. both are capable mixers, but boy does the 2000 feel like a downgrade after mixing on the 3500.

[rockdart]

Geeze, I wish. I never got the pleasure. I was running 10600 watts per side in 4 way stereo - but daisy chaining two Sun 12 channel boards together.

Made it work though.

Of course... this was 20 years ago.

[Jason Phair]

Funny you should say something about "feel", pounce.


I've noticed that once you hit a certain level of quality (aka price range), the sonics of a particular desk seem to matter a lot less, and the ergonomics become way more important. I guess it's kinda like with amps, where you become less concerned with how they sound, because at a point, they ALL sound good, and size/draw/heat become the big selling points.

[AxeSlash]

I ain't had much experience on different boards coz I work at a relatively small PA company, but out what I have tried, it's a bit like this:

Analogue: Yammy PM4000, love the EQ on it.

Digital: Yammy M7CL. Just because I know it really well and can get around pretty rapidly without confusing myself. Yet to try the bigger digital boys. M7 seems to be the most user-friendly one I've seen though.

but then again, we don't own any Midas boards...and I've only had a brief play on an XL250 some time back.

I think it depends on the gig as to what I'd prefer. I'm an EQ and outboard slag in terms of the amount of it I have to play with, so digital is always tempting coz then I can blast the shit out of whatever I want with comps and the like.

But for monitors I like an analogue board, because you can always see exactly what you are looking at. You just have to be more careful with yammy digital boards so that you can see exactly which mix/fader page you're looking at.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to how many crew on the job. Local crap job with just two soundies, gimme an M7. Reasonable job with lotsa local crew, PM4000.

[bunnerabb]

I've used 3k, 4k, Midas,.,. and they're all nice, but I really love Soundcrafts. They're pretty much my go to for live. It's part the E.Q. and gain staging and part just habit.

[studjo]

those soundcraft boards are pretty funky if you see the clip leds :D

Jo

[bunnerabb]

those soundcraft boards are pretty funky if you see the clip leds :D

Jo

Never had to push anything to clip. That's what double bussing is for. ;)

[Scodiddly]

those soundcraft boards are pretty funky if you see the clip leds :D

Jo

Um, yeah. Are you running a sound board or a light show? :lol:

"Pushing the mic pres" is something I don't quite get. I don't push above nominal signal levels because I don't like my mics to sound distorted. So for me, it doesn't matter whether Midas electronics sound a certain way when overdriven.

[Dr. Bob]

... both are capable mixers, but boy does the 2000 feel like a downgrade after mixing on the 3500.

Talk about downgrades... About the wonkiest weekend I had was a coupla' years ago. I mixed on a GL4 Friday night, XL Saturday and a 12 channel Behringer Sunday night... AAAACK!! Shiftin' gears like that hurts...

[studjo]

I never get a Soundcraft to rock unless it looks like the "Queen Stage in 1984" :lol:


Jo

[AxeSlash]

I mixed on a GL4 Friday night

Gah, don't mention that desk near me...

(one of those was the cause of neverending grief for me last year)

[JRjr]

i tend to enjoy Soundcraft...i generally use the k2...i dig it.

i enjoy analog a lot...not too big of a fan of digital. although the digidesign venue is starting to interest me. I am very curious about the midas xl8

[Jason Phair]

Ugh, the K2.

Kill me.


Kill me now.


Brittle pre's, overly wide EQ, for its price range it's got okay patchability, but the sound is not optimal. For a bar gig, I'll take a linked pair of 01/v's anyday, AND make it sound better.


Am I the only not all that curious about the XL8? It looks like they're throwing way too much at the user. Sure, I'd go for a trial, but I'm not gonna pay that much money to look like an idiot when I try to mix on it.

[Scodiddly]

Ugh, the K2.

Brittle pre's, overly wide EQ, for its price range it's got okay patchability, but the sound is not optimal. For a bar gig, I'll take a linked pair of 01/v's anyday, AND make it sound better.

Ah now, be nice. That's a board I've done quite a few shows on, and I like it.

So how exactly would you test for "brittle" mic preamps?

[Jason Phair]

Ah now, be nice. That's a board I've done quite a few shows on, and I like it.

So how exactly would you test for "brittle" mic preamps?


I get angry and hit them real hard, and if they still work, they're not brittle :lol:

[rockdart]

How does one word that on a resume?

[graymc]

I do mostly church related gigs and often have to use whatever they have. All I ask is for a board with decent headroom on the mic pres and a decent number of sends.
I recently used a Samick 24 channel board and it was grunge city from the word go. Zero headroom.

[Scodiddly]

I get angry and hit them real hard, and if they still work, they're not brittle :lol:

Ah, OK. Maybe my lack of understanding can by explained by my mellow personality. Might I suggest less rock&roll and more acoustic music? :very happy:

[CaptainHook]

PM5D can essentially suck my balls.
I think i got pretty much as fast as one could on it (or as fast
as i've seen anyone else use it)
and it was still too slow to use for my style of live mixing.

A live band is dynamic, and so is how i mix live, so even using
3 fingers from hand, and two from the other to get to a menu
in one quick sweep to adjust the eq and compression/fx/aux sends is just
too slow for me.

And I like being able to scan over the desk and outboard racks
for a quick idea of where everything is sitting as well...

And that's not even going into the sound of the damn thing.
The XL8 looks like it could be the way a digital LIVE desk
should be. Knobs for EACH channel. I haven't seen one yet
but seems like it's on the right track.

As for the analog boys, Midas is good as long as it aint one
of the nasty little "venice's". That can also kiss my ass.
Where's the fucking "grit" man??? (i mainly mix rock BTW ;) )
Or the yamaha or soundcrafts are fine too.

I'm pretty okay with most as long as it's not on my 'shit' list.

Having said all that, i'll use whatever the production company
can provide and not really give a damn as the type of desk
hasn't stopped me getting a sound i'm happy with in a long time.

There's all sorts of other 'beauties' that take care of that.

i.e The Band. :P

[floodstage]

You guys are spoiled!

I'm mixing on a Mix Wizard or a GL2200-424 depending on the gig and am happy to be at that quality level after being a Mackoid for years.

Never even set my hands on a Midas or a Yomamma PM-12345abcd-anything. Be glad to try it though. Would LOVE to have comps on every channel!

I will say that having spent many years on a Mackie 1604, I am pretty good at mixing with a low headroom board.

[bunnerabb]

I will say that having spent many years on a Mackie 1604, I am pretty good at mixing with a low headroom board.

2nd. Worst. Pres. Ever.

[studjo]

2nd. Worst. Pres. Ever.

that leaves the question after nr. 1? :D :D :D

Jo

[floodstage]

2nd. Worst. Pres. Ever.


The EQ's aren't anything to write home about either.

[burnsy]

Having just taken delivery of one of the new lx7's from soundcraft In the local bar where I engineer , I am mighty impressed with its sound and the pre amps on it. I made the move from an old spirit to that and the difference is immense I cannot believe how easier a board can make your life when mixing. I how ever really want to go digital and the next gig we are speccing an o2r hopefulyl which will mean worlds of crap to play with and less outboard gear :).

[studjo]

well you upgraded from the biggest piece of shit I ever had the misfortune of being foreced to use Evil!

Jo

[pounce]

there is a digidesign venue d in our space today, so i'm gonna get a little firsthand info on that today.

[Jason Phair]

D-Show or D-Profile?

[bunnerabb]

I've done about 1,200 shows on an LX7 and the pres and E.Q. are something I've come to lean on, yeah.

I had to mix New Year's Eve on a Hans Ringer MX8000 and why the hell they have gain pots is beyond me.

You have to run the desk almost wide open to get a shred of useful front end.

[Jason Phair]

As for the analog boys, Midas is good as long as it aint one
of the nasty little "venice's". That can also kiss my ass.
Where's the fucking "grit" man??? (i mainly mix rock BTW ;) )



Ah, the Venice. No way that's the "XL3 EQ."

Still, I actually don't at all mind the sound of those, and on a small little gig, can mix on one pretty handily.


I sure wouldn't buy one though, not for that price tag, with that lack of patchability.

Still,t he boys at Dynacord did make a nice sounding little desk :lol:

[Jason Phair]

I suppose a clarification of my original opinionated post is in order.

90% of the time, my gig is monitor guy. The 5D is just fucking awesome for this, so that's where I was coming from.

Truth be told, I've only mixed FOH on one once, and it was a little bullshit opener act, so I guess I can't say with authority how well it'd work out there for me.

I like the Heritages for FOH, but hate them for monitors. See, during soundcheck, I'm usually leaning on the desk, with my arms laying on the auxes. That little "push the knobbies to turn them on" feature has poked me in the pooper a few too many times.

4kM is versatile and reliable. Not so much a fan of getting my fingers stuck between knobs though. They cram a lot of 'em in there.


I was going to say something else...kind of the point of this whole post. I done forgot though. I blame it on the fact that I was rebuilding lamp bars all day. Fucking lights. Suck the soul right out of ya, they will.

[CloseToTheEdge]

Small 'taters here.

We're using an A&H GL 2200-424 for our little project and I guess we like it just fine for our needs. But we're just about maxing it out and may be looking to get something bigger soon.

[pounce]

for smaller stuff i like the A&H just fine. i've been on them plenty, and i greatly prefer them to mackies or some of the other music store brands. actually, i'm not too cool with the smaller yamaha boards even though i love thier big ones.

[studjo]

what pounce said - get a bigger one with more channels :)

[CaptainHook]

Ah, the Venice. No way that's the "XL3 EQ."

Still, I actually don't at all mind the sound of those, and on a small little gig, can mix on one pretty handily.


Yeah, i completely agree about the eq.
And again, if it's there i'll use it without caring and be happy. :)

[Shiko2000]

hmmmm
for a "new" anlog console ill go to midas 2k and 3k any day.

for digital - digidesign venue, i did a some foh work on it and alot of mon on this baby, and its amazing.

oldies that i like - soundcraft 8000,dda q2,crest Vx,crest

[macfeedback]

Never mind! Brain fart!

[macfeedback]

I suppose a clarification of my original opinionated post is in order.

90% of the time, my gig is monitor guy. The 5D is just fucking awesome for this, so that's where I was coming from.

Truth be told, I've only mixed FOH on one once, and it was a little bullshit opener act, so I guess I can't say with authority how well it'd work out there for me.

I like the Heritages for FOH, but hate them for monitors. See, during soundcheck, I'm usually leaning on the desk, with my arms laying on the auxes. That little "push the knobbies to turn them on" feature has poked me in the pooper a few too many times.

Fucking lights. Suck the soul right out of ya, they will.

Didn't your Momma tell you to keep your elbows off the console?

(Stay away from lights, especially red ones):D

[jacvenza]

I always have been the analog-guy. Have been mixing a lot of church-orientated gigs on many different consoles. But lately I been able to mix some gigs on a Mackie TT24. And I must admit that I love it. It has a simple and easy navigated layout, it easy to get into.

[burnsy]

Ok slight change in my view having just done a small ish gig 4 bands on a digital desk Yamaha 02r the older model though so not really ideal but it saved on a lot of outboard gear and save on the budget. Very very nice to use and had me enjoying my mixing more and also perfecting it and just being able to enjoy my job rather than having to stress in a room thats very harsh. oh and the new soundcraft LX7 analogue , very nice desk only disadvantage is the lack of individual groups. Not a fan of working on paired groups I think its called.

[pounce]

i was on a soundcraft series 5 tonight. really easy to get around, sounded fine. i would be happy to mix on them more often, i havne't been on one for a while - i've still mostly been on the yamaha's. anyhow, worked fine for me.