Otto Toon digs deeper

[slabrock]

This is partly a philosophical question, partly very practical, and i seriously hope to get some conversation going on.

Autotuneing is a standard nowadays. Apparently everybody (customers, that is) expects to hear the subtle flange of Otto in every vocal part worth their money.

Tuneing a track, however carefully and graphically, seems to me to erase some of the cutting-through capabilities of a track more than it should. Often i have to compensate with distortion, with a stopped flange sweep (like in Electric Mistress) or go to drastic measures in re-livelying the performance through doubling and editing.

The trademark sound of Otto is not so bad a problem as i first felt. Re-activating my old Roland RE201 tape delay is a great way of disguising that flange. The main problem is to find the right amount of Autotune so that the overall performance doesn't sound lame - and then waking up the parts which had to be tuned near-to-lifeless.

Any tried and tested tricks?

PS. And the platform doesn't have to be Alsihad. I can still edit a part at a time in some other platforms without routing to a separate track.

Thank you,

Slabrock

[Comte de St Germain]

I track it right.

[slabrock]

I track it right.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And no, i'm not going to sing everything myself imitating the artiste.

Even if i could sing, which i can not.
:D

Edit: Seriously, the demands are gettin ridiculous. If Neil Young started today, he wouldn't.

[eagan]

At the risk of sounding naive, or being regarded as a wiseass, there is this ancient, old, archaic, possibly lost art of the elders, that they've called "practice and rehearsal".


Seriously, is it now considered completely standard, taken for granted, assumed, that somebody can walk into a studio, spend a few days making assorted random belches, farts, clanks, and squeaks for a few days, and some poor engineer will sit down alone and magically turn shit into gold?


JLE

[slabrock]

At the risk of sounding naive, or being regarded as a wiseass, there is this ancient, old, archaic, possibly lost art of the elders, that they've called "practice and rehearsal".


Seriously, is it now considered completely standard, taken for granted, assumed, that somebody can walk into a studio, spend a few days making assorted random belches, farts, clanks, and squeaks for a few days, and some poor engineer will sit down alone and magically turn shit into gold?

Apparently so.

I've worked on 5 albums during the last year, only one i got anything to do with the tracking. I just receive the sessions, and am expected to work miracles.

Tough deal, i know. But i'm getting paid
:D

Here must be others in similar position. Or do you really get to do the sessions from the beginning to the finish?

[slabrock]

Actually, i think we're approaching a much deeper question here: should the artist be allowed to do his/her own tracking?

Ridiculous question? Not so :Cry:

Since a) DAW's have become quite inexpensive and
b) the same (or fewer) amount of bulk releases is divided in more and more titles
c) thus leading to smaller individual budgets
d) and artists themselves taking the economical responsibility of their projects
e) or forced to do so
it is obviously quite tempting to track only the drums in a proper environment, and do the rest in consumer grade products with whatever knowledge of working the tools the artist's got.

Because he/she can not afford anything else, after they've had to pay for the mixing and mastering, which the company won't allow them to spare on. Often at least some of the tracking is done in this substandard way.

The result: a wide variety of tracks ranging from very good (the drums in a proper room) to average (bass player with a SVT in a neighbor's hobby studio) to bad (guitar player through a Pod Pro) to horrible (lead singer doing just one take between entertaining new special guests).

This can only happen in DIY / small scale / demo projects?

Not so. My wife who has no sound engineering experience whatsoever went to do some programs on the national radio. First thing she learned was that everybody's expected to edit and engineer their own programs, because "who needs experienced engineers when you can be schooled to the basic functions of a DAW in less than a day"?

Either this, or the engineer to do the tracking for free. Which one it shall be?
:Twisted: :icon_eek: :Twisted:

[Comte de St Germain]

Where a person tracks is a funny thing, some folks can do it at home and others can't. The same goes with the studio.

I'm not a freelancer, I run a room, people come here that usually want the full meal deal and I'm convinced that much of the time by us tracking the project it all equals out in the end.

It's pretty apparent by now how I feel about manipulated perfection so, if i get a balls to the wall performance and i have to nudge a trailing note so be it, but if i get a warbling no talent jackleg he's either going home and boning up on shit or he's going home with a well recorded representation of his human-ness.

It may not be rocket surgery but sometimes it feels like plastic surgery.

So, if I'm not getting the PHD payment, expect to get field dressed.

[slabrock]

or he's going home with a well recorded representation of his human-ness.

Yep, those are the projects i end up with
:lol:

Well, luckily the next two projects i'll get to do the tracking myself. Saves a lot of trouble. Hopefully i don't have to touch the Otto at all ...think they run Melodyne
:lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Shan]

Tuneing a track, however carefully and graphically, seems to me to erase some of the cutting-through capabilities of a track more than it should. Often i have to compensate with distortion, with a stopped flange sweep (like in Electric Mistress) or go to drastic measures in re-livelying the performance through doubling and editing.

Any tried and tested tricks?

Slabrock

Here are some tips I posted previous that should help. (http://womb.mixerman.net/showthread.php?p=12206#post12206) Also, if I'm tuning a phrase that has only one bad note, I will run Autotune thru the whole phrase with my posted methods above, but I will only take that one note. Even if the other pitches remain untouched in Autotune, I will not take those as they have been run thru the plug-in.

I've seen guys run the whole phrase thru, fix the one note and keep everything else that has also passed thru the plug-in. I feel this messes with the sound a bit.

Another tip for transparency is to NOT change the pitch curve of the singer at all. Just move the selected pitch up or down and use your ear until you "hear" it and not what you "see". Do not change the natural pitch envelope of the singer. This really screws up the sound big time. I see guys drawing in stuff all the time and it ends up sucking. The main reason is because of the subtle tone changes at the most subtle change in pitch. If you want to hear what I mean, take a sustained note with vibrato and make it a perfect 100 percent straight line. You will hear the tone changes that I'm talking about. This is the type of thing that really really messes up tuning big time. Keep that natural pitch curve no matter what. That one is a biggy in my books. I myself do not "draw" pitch curves. I use the curve that is already there when in graphical mode.

Another tip is to use "formant style" pitch correction plug-ins. I wont go into the theory of formants etc but these will help with avoiding the chipmunk tones etc on questionable singers in which the pitch has to move quite a bit.

Hope those help.

I have way way to many hours logged pitch correcting people. Everyone thinks they can walk up to a mic and sing these days. Oh well, it pays my bills.:grin:

I also call the whole process "Bitch Correction" from fixing all these waveform doners. :very happy:

Shane

[slabrock]

Here are some tips I posted previous that should help. (http://womb.mixerman.net/showthread.php?p=12206#post12206)

Thank you, Shan. The link you posted, and everything it leads to, i've read before, and by heart several times, and solid gold it was.

But the idea of using the exact curve, phrase by phrase, that was where i probably have gone most wrong, having tried to copy the curve by hand instead of just moving it. I blame my past as a draughtsman.

Lost subtleties, that's what it's all about. Vague similarities, not exact likenesses.

Let's see if the future is brighter :D

Thanks again,

Slabrock

[Shan]

...But the idea of using the exact curve, phrase by phrase, that was where i probably have gone most wrong, having tried to copy the curve by hand instead of just moving it...

Thanks again,

Slabrock

If you are using Antares Autotune, when in graphical mode, select the note, hit 'make curve", then raise it or lower it using your ear alone and dont rely on the graph. Once you do this a few times, it will make more sense as to why. I have a video podcast completed that will demonstrate this soon. I'm just wrapping up a few other episodes before I start posting them. Stay tuned.

Glad to have helped.

Shane

[CloseToTheEdge]

At the risk of sounding naive, or being regarded as a wiseass, there is this ancient, old, archaic, possibly lost art of the elders, that they've called "practice and rehearsal".

This is a complete waste of time as long as people are put behind mics because of how they look.

-Of course, I don't really mind since I look so fucking good myself.

[Shan]

Another thing that has really helped me big time is deciding "what" really needs to be tuned. Back in the day I went WAY overboard. Way overboard. You dont wanna know. :icon_eek:

My modus operandi has changed quite a bit. I will play the lead vox(and double/triple with the lead vox if the song has them) in the track with the music playing at the approx level that the vocals may be in the final mix. If you dont "hear" any questionable notes with the music, then absolutely 100 percent leave it alone. You'll be very surprised what you can get away with in a track pitch wise. Now of course if you solo the track and even 'look' at it in AT, you will both see and hear stuff that you might be tempted to fix. If you cant 'hear' it in the track with the music, then just leave it. You'll be using alot less AT with this approach.

It's all these little things that when added up, will make your pitch correction very transparent, if and when you need to use it.

I learnt the hard way. I've recorded some pretty questionable singers...I mean waveform donors. :very happy: :very happy:

Shane