The FOH "Speed Limit"

[clicktrack]

Years ago, I worked in a venue that had a specific volume max for concerts. A lot of the incoming roadies would call it the "Speed Limit" and we, in turn, picked up that phrasing in our lingo.

Our venue was an outdoor ampitheatre with a max capacity of 16,000. About 4,000 was seating under a cover, and the rest was exposed seating on the hill.

For us, the speed limit was 100 dB(C) at the desk and 95 at the farthest-most point at the hill.

One of my jobs was to enforce this. The reason being is that the venue was part of an amusement park which was built way out of town away from any developments. Unfortunately, the city allowed developers to build houses right next to the lot lines of the park (yes, that makes sense) and the park would continually receive noise complaints from the new owners.

Of course, our internal response was "Fuck off! We were here first, and you knew you were buying a house next to an amusement park, for fuck's sake", but, needless to say, the external tack taken was "Well, despite the nature of the business we're in, we will do our part in keeping the noise levels at hand". Due to the political fracas that was starting, we had to take this due diligence seriously.

Personally, I got used to this level as more than loud enough. I've always been of the thought to mix to "reinforce", not to "overpower". This being said, I saw more than a few FOH guys pissed at my walking up to the desk with the "bring it down" indication. Imagine a 23-year old puke walking up to you and telling you how to do your job.

Yeah...I admit, I wouldn't like it as well. But it had to be done.

Actually, I gotta admit...I enjoyed it with the asshole crews. You know...those crews who come in throwing attitude from the moment the day began...oh yeah...

"fuck all'y'all and bring it the fuck down".

<insert protestations about their meter reading less than mine>

"Well its nice that your meter reads a bunch of numbers. As far as I care they're wrong. Bring it the fuck down or do I have to remind you of the fucking fine that YOU guys pay if you piss me off?"

Yep. it didn't matter what their meter said. Mine was God.

In all actuality, most of the time, things were quite civil...our SM discussed stuff like this as the day began and the guys with the shows were more than cool with it. It was only a couple of times that I had to pull asshole rank. And damn...it was fun...


But I digress from the point of this...

Much of my work now isn't in the FOH, but this thought and memory brought to mind the idea of the loudness wars on recordings aren't limited to just records. What about the loudness wars in the FOH?

So for those of you who mix FOH, when you mix, (ignoring the venue configuration and its effect on loudness)
1) how loud do you mix?
2) What do you consider is too loud? What is YOUR speedlimit?

Discuss...

[Comte de St Germain]

It depends on the gig.

I haven't been doing many rock shows lately but the Bluegrass, jazz, blues and folk(blues) stuff is pretty simple for me. Make it loud enough that everyone can enjoy it but also make it quiet enough so that if some jackass wants to talk about hunting with his buddy everyone shoots him the bird.

See, it's all relative, people get louder as the music gets louder and becomes a battle until no one cares to pay attention.


When i'm doing traditional acoustic music like bluegrass i'm pretty hellbent on being able to close ones eyes and not hear/see the PA. I want it to sound like the way they hear themselves when playing backastage.


So, loud enough is where I'm at.

[clicktrack]

I think I'd enjoy one of your shows.

Nice.

[Jason Phair]

Here's where our good friends Fletcher and Munson come in. There are many types of loud. If you're 100Db at 2k, it's gon' be painful. If you're 115 at 50? Mmmm...

One of our main contracts is a venue with an historically strict speed limit of 95. A few years ago, their meter broke, and noone at that place EVER fixes anything, so it's been a "go by your ears" since then. Unfortunately, since it was built for choirs and pipe organs, stage volume alone is often above 95, and it's my ass gettin yelled at to turn monitors down (as the band begs for more...always a fun boat to be in). This place is a resort/religious/intellectual community type dealio, and on top of the speed limit being there to a)not bother nearby residents and b)protect all the old people, it's actually not a bad idea for sonics alone, because this room can NOT be overcome by cranking it. You will just look like you're fucking new off the boat if you do so. Yet everyone tries.

Lotsa run on sentences without answering the question. Dontcha love it?

[clicktrack]

Here's where our good friends Fletcher and Munson come in. There are many types of loud. If you're 100Db at 2k, it's gon' be painful. If you're 115 at 50? Mmmm...



True, but this is where an averaging weighted sound meter comes into play. The weighting takes what you said into account.

A-weighting is more "accurate", however doesn't produce a reading thats consistant with the way WE hear it (Thanks to, as you said, Fletcher Munson). We used C-Weighting, as its supposed approximate the human ear much better.

I've never seen B-weighting used...and now, thinking about it, I'm curious to know what it is used for...hmm...google, here I come!

D-Weighting is, from what I understand, more useful for high-noise environments (i.e. standing beside a jet engine and measuring how quickly it'll dry your hair.)

[Mixerpuppet]

AFAIK, in Washington State there are regulations that define the Speed Limit measured at the desk. The problem is that Washington State takes a decibel based system and connects it to California Laws that use Public Nuisance based Laws.

So you can be at 100db past 10:00pm in EDNA Zone X legally until Uncle Jeb complains he is bothered.

The Federal Way, Wa city code is similar but actually uses veebage to the effect that if my noise making is below a certain criteria Uncle Jeb gets told to take a hike by the authorities he called. (can he hear it at a 50ft distance) So if the kick drum at 50hz is bothering you on your couch you have to see a avg of X seconds above 75db before you have to turn it down... to meet the "75db" requirement... Even then it gets difficult because we also have some judments based upon whether musical art is a form of expression falling under the freedom of speech protection. No wonder Screamo is so popular in garages.

I wish I had known some of the earleir in life when a country music fan from the local retirement moblie home park called me in for playing trash....

After damaging my ears to a degree, 100bd really hurts...

But back to the FLMU... A really midrangy band of instruments will wear on you if you can't balance the eq...

Air raid sirens are a great primer...:Thumbsup:

[rockdart]

At one club we played at, the speed limit was 90 and the old man that ran the place had the db meter in one hand and a pitcher of water in the other and always threatened to pour the water on the board and the rack if it wasn't turned down.

I always wanted to see that old effer fry... but complied.

I figured if I could have a conversation with someone back at the board (100' away max) without having to yell, that it was a pretty good level.

[floodstage]

I bought a mic from a guy a while back that said he used to play in a vegas lounge that had a db meter permanently installed and if even a snare hit caused it to hit 85 db or higher, they got fined. Everyone used V-drums there apparently.

I used to do an all-ages-punk-4-bands-a-night thing from time to time and it wasn't uncommon for bands (w/their double stacks dimed) to clock in at 110-115db at the board even though the mix was down to vocals only (plus a shitload of bleed of course)

huh?

I remember one couple walking around with their 2 year old and I said "Hey, you might want to have junior wear ear plugs, because 90 db is pretty hard on a 2 year old, showed them a db meter clocking at 105 and offered them a pair of ear plugs from my stash. They said he won't wear them and walked away. Stayed for the whole show which got even louder later on.

After one particularly loud night, I mentioned that it's hard to run sound with ear plugs in to the guys that hired me, and haven't been asked back since.

No big deal, that gig also had.................STAIRS!!!!! :icon_eek:

[Dr. Bob]

So for those of you who mix FOH, when you mix, (ignoring the venue configuration and its effect on loudness)
1) how loud do you mix?
2) What do you consider is too loud? What is YOUR speedlimit?

Discuss...

Like most of the other guys have posted... I mix the show as to the content.

The briefcase gig gear is a bit "honky" at 2-4k... I cut that about 3db and roll it out at about 96db... often a bit less... sometimes more when the crowd's diggin' it... but that's a family oriented variety show.

If I'm mixin' a country band on a Saturday night, I'm watchin' the analyser to be sure I'm poppin' 102-105db from 250Hz down and 96db from there up (as a rule).

If it's a decent rock or R&B gig... I'll push a C Weight all the way to 102-105db.

If it's folk, acoustic or similar... I mix it to probably something like 85-90db tops.... just a guess... I mix it to where I can hear the conversations around me when folks are talking about normal.

There's one venue here that's similar to clicktrack's amphitheater... only more fucked up. We get a yellow light if we're 86db 200 ft up the hill behind FOH... ANY TIME! We get the red light at 92db at the same location in the parking lot. We're allowed no more than 3 overages in a 5 minute period...

[Statick]

where i mix depends entirely on the band

some bands require a little reinforcement, little else

other bands need to create force 9 gales with the subwoofers

i often work with a lot of heavy psychedelic stuff, where overpowering levels is half of the sound (and in fact, bringing everything up to the level of the cymbals makes it this loud anyway)

but i certainly don't treat every band this way !

[AxeSlash]

We had a 96dB limit at FOH for a christian rock gig a coupla years ago.

That was fun. Not.

Anyhow, with regards to "how loud is too loud"...like Jason said, it's all down to yer EQ.

An SPL meter that does C weighted measurements will tell you what the average dB for the whole spectrum is, but not for that one harsh-ass peak at 2.3K that's killing everyone.

In my experience, it's not about when the meter says "[X]dB", it's about when my ears go "fucking OUCH."

Of course it depends on the gig. With anything rock, I generally take it up about as loud as my ears reckon is OK unless we have a limit. But other styles often require less.

We regularly do the BBC Big Band, and the system barely does anything. It's almost difficult to hear if it's actually doing anything unless you're stood next to it.

We had a new guy system tech do one of these gigs for us once, and was EQing the system at some blindingly painful SPL. Unfortunately I didn't really feel that my 20 years less experience than him gave me the confidence to be able to say that no one's gonna be making that much noise in here unless someone drops a nuke on the roof, and that human hearing changes according to the amount of abuse it's taking.

Some good reading on this (in my experience, much overlooked) matter: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearingAmplitude.php