Otek and Malice get the GAS

[otek]

(and yeah, that's Gear Acquisition Syndrome, y'all)

We have been kicking around the idea of posting a thread with examples of good-quality recording rigs.

We would each put together a small (2 inputs) and a large (12 inputs) recording rig, containing gear "approved" by Malice and myself.

The point is to put together something that both of us would be completely confortable working with. The list would then be continuously updated, as new pieces of gear come out on the market and we get a chance to evaluate them. People interested in creating or expanding on their own recording systems, would be able to use it as a point of reference.

Hopefully, this would spawn some discussion, as well as answer some of those questions that are asked over and over again.

[otek]

Below, I give you my suggestion for a good, solid 2-input personal DAW:



Small Stationary Setup (2 inputs)



Shure SM-7B ……..$350

Bock Audio 195 ……..$1050

Apogee Duet II or RME Babyface ……..$595/750

Sennheiser HD-558 ……..$170

Genelec 8020B ……..$500/pair

Figure an extra $200 for cables, mic stands and assorted accessories.

Total ……..$2,865 - 3000 (depending on interface)

http://womb.mixerman.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=761&d=1168376442

[the Apogee MiniMe is discontinued, therefore I edited my list to include a currently available option. -otek]

For a converter/front end option - if you're on a Mac - the most sensible and cost-effective option today would be the Apogee Duet II, which features four outputs, high sample rate capability, and two surprisingly good preamps capable of a whopping 75 dB of gain. There is also an optional "docking station" available. See Apogee's website for details.

If you're on a PC, the choices get perhaps a little less obvious, but for me, the RME Babyface does a decent job and also ups the bells and whistles factor slightly in comparison to the aforementioned Duet, what with its ADAT lightpipe I/O and on-board DSP capabilities (which I have yet to test for myself - disclaimer!).

With the recent amendments to my list, I elected to up the ante slightly on the mic selection. The Bock Audio 195 (previously the Soundelux 195, recommended by Malice) is about as inexpensive as it gets for a quality LDC. While I still find the previously recommended Audio Technica 4033 a good contender in the "bargain basement" category, it is clearly no match for the 195 in terms of versatility and general sound quality.

The combination of the SM-7 and the Bock allows you to make a very decent drum kit recording in a pinch.

I also feel that an active speaker solution would be the best choice, so I recommended the pint-sized Genelec 8020B [substituted the previous 8020 model, and knocked a couple beaners off of the price - good deal!]. The KRK's Malice picked would most likely trump the Genelecs in the low end department, and I'm sure they're fine monitors. I haven't tried them personally. I can say that I've been a little less fortunate with the old passive KRK's, but that's entirely a matter of taste.

As for headphones, the Sennheiser HD-380 pro fit the bill nicely. The 770s have great isolation, but are a tad too "smiley-curved" for my taste.



otek

[malice]

my small set up would differ slightly, but not that much :

Small Stationary Setup (2 inputs)



Shure SM-57 ……..$100

Soundelux U195 ……..$1050

Apogee MiniMe (w/USB option) ……..$800

Beyer DT-770 ……..$150

KRK V6 ……..$700/pair

Figure an extra $200 for cables, mic stands and assorted accessories.

Total ……..$3,000

http://womb.mixerman.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=761&d=1168376442


Actually, I realise I might have been a bit over the top with my ldc, but I really think the 195 is a very good mike that will remain in the locker once the locker gets bigger. But I really like Otek approach as I think a SM7b is about the most versatile mike you could think off, but it will need a lot of gain.

The Apogee, to my surprise, seems to be the best solution. I have used it, it is a totally fair pre, a VERY good converter in that price range. DISCLAIMER : never tested the USB thing.

I chose the DT770, because I like the isolation and the bass response that will help during mixing. I have seen very different price, especially in the US, but you can find this at that price in an ebay chop in no time.

I chose the KRK V6. I prefered the V8 ver I, but it might be difficult to find an a bit more expensive.

I think they are solid little monitoring speakers, I would say a bit better than Oteks, but this is highly subjective.



malice

[otek]

...Aaaaand here is the bigger rig suggestion:

[The original lists are going on five years, and were becoming outdated in certain respects. I have, therefore, begun to make revisions to my list to adjust for prices, availability and changes in personal taste. The original "budget ceiling" for this large rig was $11,000, but in 2011, prices have come up quite a bit. I am still trying to keep it within a reasonable budget, without compromising what I feel are my personal requirements. - otek, June 2011]


Large(ish) Stationary Setup (12 inputs)



Toft ATB16 console ……..$5,000

B&W 686 w/ NAD C 326BEE amplifier ……..$980

(2) Beyerdynamic DT-250 ……..$180/pair

Sennheiser HD-650 ........$450

FMR RNC ……..$175

MOTU HD 192 ……..$1800

Radial JDI ……..$200

(2) sE Electronics 4400a ……..$1400

(3) Shure SM-57 ……..$100 ea.

(2) Beyerdynamic M-88 ........$350

Presonus HP-4 ........$130

Bock Audio 195 ........$1050
(see also below for other suggestions)



Figure an extra $900 for cables, mic stands and assorted accessories.

Total ……..$13,445

http://womb.mixerman.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=761&d=1168376442


First off, a BIG disclaimer: I have not worked on the Toft console, nor have I heard this particular MOTU interface. They were selected because they offer singular value for money in their respective price brackets - nothing else even comes close. I feel, however, that we have enough testimony among the AE's we know on this site, to put a big OK seal on these units.

For the rest of the stuff, it's all chosen based on personal experience, which is really important for something like this. Anyone can open up a catalog and pick out some gear. The good thing about these rigs is that the usability of every piece of gear mentioned, can be backed up by personal experience.

Malice managed to squeeze a lot of value into his setup by selecting several great, multi-purpose mics. Mine still don't feature any SDCs, but I feel the sE Electronics 4400a is a very versatile LDC which can be used for just about anything.

Moving along, dynamic control is provided by the FMR RNC, which remains a pretty unbeatable value.

The Radial JDI is a high quality DI which among other things allows you to sum two signals to mono.

The B&W/NAD is a passive monitor setup, which I have gravitated to lately. I find the B&W speakers very easy to mix on and for me, yield predictable, repeatable results. It also provides extra inputs for other sound sources.

The Beyer DT-250s were chosen for their suitability in a cue/monitor scenario. They put out good levels and have a tight-sounding bottom end that doesn't break up too easily when pushed. I also included a pair of Sennheiser HD-650 which I feel are among the very best headphones for reference/monitoring purposes. The Presonus HP-4 is included to give a little more punch and drive when using multiple headphones on one system.

The Beyer M-88 works for many of the same chores the Shure SM-7 does, including stuff like floor tom, bass cab, vocals and even kick drum. I opted for two of them, since they are far more versatile than most "dedicated" kick mics.

The Bock Audio 195 is an awesome value LDC. However, if you're in certain parts of Europe, a Milab VIP-50 or like Malice suggested, a Brauner Phantom Classic, may be a better deal than the Bock.



This is a wonderful rig in spite of the relatively low price tag. I could definitely make a record on this setup.

otek

[malice]

Here is my suggestion:


Large(ish) Stationary Setup (12 inputs)



Toft ATB16 console ……..$3,500

KRK V6 …….....................$600

(2) Beyer DT-250, (1) DT770 ……..$180/pair

FMR RNC ……..$175

MOTU HD 192 ……..$1800

Little Lab Red Eye ……..$200

AKG D-112 ……..$220

Beyer M201 …….......$200

(2) Josephson C-42MP……..$900
(match pair)

(4) Shure SM-57 ……..$400

Shure SM7b ..............$400

Soundelux U195........... $1050
(or one Brauner Phantom C anniversary, good deal in Europe)



Figure an extra $900 for cables, mic stands and assorted accessories.

Total ……..$10,885

http://womb.mixerman.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=761&d=1168376442


That was a tough one.

That said, It's a pretty decent setup that is very expandable.

The Toft Console, that I still haven't tried (big disclaimer) seems to have little competition. Nice EQ ( from the Trident80B, that I have used ;) ) usable pres (from reliable reviewers).

I kept my monitoring system from the "little" setup, because I really think they are fair and honest. Otek's choice might be a step further, but I wanted to keep my price under Otek's price :D.

The Motu I know well. Not to be compared to any of their other converters, these are rock solid medium range converters with comfortable display. I'm a mac user, PC people would prefer RME that would do as well). Still the Motu is much more expandable (4 interface with a single PCI card). Pro tools users have to buy a 002R plus a set of converters using ADATs lightpipe (hmmm :Roll eyes: )

I chose the Little lab Red Eye wich is a mono unit because of the reamping possibility that I value a lot and because you can plug synths directly into the desk.

If you search well, you will have the Cans + amp for that price, I know Beyer is a bit more expensive in US, AKG might be a better deal then.

As for my choice of mikes, I couldn't resolve myself to get rid of a pair of SD, I think the C42 are great for overheads and acoustic guitars. My choice of the M201 is to give another flavor than the 57, and to have a better snare mic that has better isolation (hypercardioid). I'd use the 57 for mid tom and I have the choice of using it also for the Floor or use the SM7b instead.

I, again picked what I think is a high quality LD (U195). If you are in Europe, you can have a Brauner PhantomC anniversary for 150 more bucks, I think it is as well a very good choice.

In any case, you have the SM7b as second choice for lead vocal, it's a good thing.

This is subject to evolve with time, but I think it's a pretty nice setup to start with, I would make an album with that gear without bitchin.

Now how you build the room right, that's another story...

malice

[Swafford]

I looked at the Apogee Mini-Me. After a long discussion with a local mastering engineer, I was convinced the Metric Halo ULN-2 was a much better unit (better pres, better A/D/A) at about the same price point. Of course it only runs on a Mac.

[otek]

I was convinced the Metric Halo ULN-2 was a much better unit (better pres, better A/D/A)

Swafford, thanks for raising the question and pointing this out.

We had it up for consideration. For me, there were a couple of issues:

1) It's about 300 bucks more - we really were trying to cut corners here, while remaining in a comfortable quality zone.

2) Reportedly, there have been some driver issues with the MH stuff.

3) It's Mac only, like you said, and, most importantly...

4) ...I haven't personally used the unit. Like I said above:

For the rest of the stuff, it's all chosen based on personal experience, which is really important for something like this. Anyone can open up a catalog and pick out some gear. The good thing about these rigs is that the usability of every piece of gear mentioned, can be backed up by personal experience.

However, fellow Wombian Zoesch will contribute his choices for a mobile recording rig soon, having much more experience in this field. There will also be contributions from people knowledgeable about putting together highly stable and usable PC's for recording. Stay tuned.


Cheers,

otek

[volthause]

a small (2 inputs) and a large (16 inputs) recording rig,



Large(ish) Stationary Setup (12 inputs)


why only 12 inputs?

[Swafford]

Swafford, thanks for raising the question and pointing this out.

We had it up for consideration. For me, there were a couple of issues:

1) It's about 300 bucks more - we really were trying to cut corners here, while remaining in a comfortable quality zone.

2) Reportedly, there have been some driver issues with the MH stuff.

3) It's Mac only, like you said, and, most importantly...

4) ...I haven't personally used the unit. Like I said above:



1. Maybe the DSP unit, but the non-DSP unit can be had at around $800US if you look hard enough (I bought mine for $775 from a joint in Flroida).

2. Since I've been n the MH list (2 years) there's not been one peep on any signifigant issue that couldn't be resolved with installing the previous version with out any problem to the console or DAW install and wasn;t immediately addressed. The A+ side of this, the driver developer shares knowledge like my granny did cookies.

3. yep

4. fair enough.

I'll add, becuase I can't help myself, it's like Internet Tourettes: given the pre's have been compared favourably to Grace and Millenium and the A/D/A is top notch and the direction of the driver will be to incorporate their included plug ins (which I'm told, again from aforementioned mastering engineer, rock) right in Logic and other DAW's, and it comes with a separate, usable 80 bit recording and playback console that can be substituted for a DAW and used with incredible routing flexibility for remote and live applications, Metric Halo uses vision and tools like Apppogggeee uses marketing and the alphabet.

And resale value is close to 90% of retail, which is nothing to sneeze at.

So, you know, not looking for a pissing contest, just saying is all. I like my MH ULN-2 dammit!

OK, sorry. I'm done. Back to the discussion.

So, are good deals are to be had on Brauner's? We're getting hosed here with the exchange.

[malice]

1. Maybe the DSP unit, but the non-DSP unit can be had at around $800US if you look hard enough (I bought mine for $775 from a joint in Flroida).

2. Since I've been n the MH list (2 years) there's not been one peep on any signifigant issue that couldn't be resolved with installing the previous version with out any problem to the console or DAW install and wasn;t immediately addressed. The A+ side of this, the driver developer shares knowledge like my granny did cookies.

3. yep

4. fair enough.

I'll add, becuase I can't help myself, it's like Internet Tourettes: given the pre's have been compared favourably to Grace and Millenium and the A/D/A is top notch and the direction of the driver will be to incorporate their included plug ins (which I'm told, again from aforementioned mastering engineer, rock) right in Logic and other DAW's, and it comes with a separate, usable 80 bit recording and playback console that can be substituted for a DAW and used with incredible routing flexibility for remote and live applications, Metric Halo uses vision and tools like Apppogggeee uses marketing and the alphabet.

And resale value is close to 90% of retail, which is nothing to sneeze at.

So, you know, not looking for a pissing contest, just saying is all. I like my MH ULN-2 dammit!

OK, sorry. I'm done. Back to the discussion.

That is what is great with that thread.

You bring ideas we didn't have, we test them and we update if your idea is better. The bottom line is : "finding the best bang for the buck setup".

So please, no "pissing contest argument" taken : we are all for the suggestions. Thank you for mentioning the MH Swafford ;).



So, are good deals are to be had on Brauner's? We're getting hosed here with the exchange.

The euro/dollar exchange is killing you with european gear.

So far a Brauner PhantomC anniverssary can be found new for 809 euros + VAT. That is 1046 $

of course, you cannot find this at that price in US. The price is more like 1260$ plus shipping.

Basically, I was stating that us europeans could buy a Phantom C for the same price as the U195 (maybe even less).

I like them both, but I wanted to state that the best bang for the buck might differ wether you live in US or EEC.

malice

[malice]

why only 12 inputs?

Aaah, because we chose the Motu 192.

The idea was to pick a number of i/o that would fit most of small multitracking setup.

16 might have be better, but more expensive. I thought about RME (that I believe is better behaving with PC)

What I like with Motu is that you can expand it easilly.

I liked the Aurora by Lynx. Amazing converters, but a LOT more expensive.

malice

[otek]

So, you know, not looking for a pissing contest, just saying is all. I like my MH ULN-2 dammit!

No pissing contest challenge perceived, Swafford. :D

Like Malice says, these rigs will be upgraded as we find and try things that we find better.

I'd be curious to hear where you got your killer deal on the Metric Halo..... it wasn't in Orlando by any chance? :Roll eyes:

One thing about the prices, I have sort of picked a "decent intermediate street price" for all my examples - I haven't really busted my ass to find the best deal. I am sure that if people would put some time into it, all the above rigs could be somewhat reduced in price - especially if you were doing all the business with one company.

[Mixerpuppet]

Could you....

perhaps have small side discussion the order of importance in each of the choices thusfar...

I noticed you could get 16 channels (2 units) of Focusrite Saffire Pro for roughly $1400... I plan on getting one unit and hanging off my 8 bus for tranfers from the tape machine of drums stuff...

thanx :)

[Comte de St Germain]

I like the MOTU HD 192 except for the damn fan...

That said I use a 24 channel mobile rig that uses 3 Motu 896HD units.

It runs great and although the pres aren't the best on the planet they do just fine until you get to super quiet classical and delicate acoustic stuff.

[otek]

Could you...

perhaps have small side discussion the order of importance in each of the choices thusfar...

I noticed you could get 16 channels (2 units) of Focusrite Saffire Pro for roughly $1400...

Assuming we're discussing the "big rig" here....

There are several choices for eight-channel preamp racks in the $700 range.

The reason why we picked the console is, it gives us both input and monitor paths, good-sounding EQ on all inputs, and bussing architecture, as well as aux- cue- and monitor management in one handy package. If you had to acquire all those features in separate units, you would end up having to spend a lot of money, and possibly run into compatibility issues, etc.

I would rather work on a desk, because it also allows you to use outboard, and sum your mix OTB.

[Mixerpuppet]

Oh dear...

Yes big rig..

Sorry I was just thinking about shifting money towards something else like another D-112 and gaining a few extra digital I/O....4 more channels coming back to the ATB for summing... etc...

Im thinking the MOTU and Focusrite converters are pretty comparable with better PC stability going towards to Focusrite.

I guess Platform might have a small influence on which hairs to split thou...

So when are you going to bbkongs to play with the news toys...

[Shan]

[Deleted]

[oudplayer]

Great idea, otek and malice...

I'd like to point out that the Event ASP6 and ASP8 monitors are a really good deal from some places in America (if you get them used they're dirt cheap). Dollars for donuts, I'd pick them any day over the Dynaudio, Genelec or KRKs. I know that their price in Europe is quite a bit higher, though, and Genelec/Dynaudio is a better value there. Perhaps you might want to consider the ASP8s as an option if an American-based engineer needs mid-field monitors that put out a lot of volume...?

Also- I'd recommend putting another converter recommendation for Windows users - I've never actually seen a MOTU HD192 or 896HD working seamlessly on windows XP (it's great on mac). Perhaps Fireface 400/800 would be good?

Oh, and, thumbs up on the Josephsons!

[lebouche]

I got me a Metric Halo 2882 I think its got more inputs than the ULN2 (18 supposedly). If you go for the one without DSP its not that expensive fo what it is.
The driver problems aforementioned have dissapeared since the release of the publicbeta version which addresses problems with intel macs.

Cool thread....making me want to borrow money and buy a toft.
Is there a desk like that which you can automate on? Couldnt see an option for that in the manual.
Ch:Thumbsup: :Thumbsup: eers

[otek]

I was just thinking about shifting money towards something else like another D-112 and gaining a few extra digital I/O....4 more channels coming back to the ATB for summing... etc...

I'm sure if you have the 11 grand to plunk down on the big rig, you won't be gritting your teeth too much over another D-112. :D

Seriously though, I would not mind another 4 I/O.... you're saying Focusrite has a 16-I/O standalone converter in the same price bracket?

Im thinking the MOTU and Focusrite converters are pretty comparable with better PC stability going towards to Focusrite.

I guess I have a little past history with the Focusrites.... aside from the Octopre which is decent, the cheapo Focusrite pre's I've tried have been uniformly horrible. This is not to speak badly of their converters per se, which I really don't have much of an idea about.


LeBouche, as for automated consoles, I haven't seen anything in this price bracket.... your best bet is to find something like a used Neotek or similar, but that will be much more expensive....

[Swafford]

Thanks for the generosity. It's REFRESHING!

I think I will start demanding payment for muffins and pies in Euros.

I looked up my Metric Halo ULN-2 invoice, I mispoke, it was $875 from Scit Scat and, uh, I think they are in Orlando :>). I was looking at a used one at the same time for $775, though, and guess I decided for $100 I'd rather be in the position of being the original purchaser. When I was shopping for one at the time, I could routinely find them in the $899-$1000. These have two mic pres with AES or SPDIF in for 2 more.

Here's a rather long post about the MH 2882 on a local board from my friend Dave Davis. Dave's worked as a mastering engineer at QCA here in Cincinnati for 15 or so years and is now doing primarily new media in his new digs at Sound Images. You see his posts a lot at REP's mastering forum. He's a bit of a, um, tech geek. I added some editorial in a few places.

_________________

You can't go wrong with the MH 2882. It has one feature available nowhere else: perfect gain changes! The mixer and +DSP uses 80 bit math, and in tests I've done repeated gain changes in a row (up 1 dB, down 1, 30+ times in a row), and no matter how long the chain, you can get a perfect null. By comparison, PTHD falls apart after about 5 inserts, because it's DAE is 24 bit fixed point, and loses track of the decimal place after awhile.

The A/D and D/A are top notch: as good or better than the current prosumer rave, Benchmark's DAC1 and ADC1. In a completely different league than anything made by Digi. I was doing some measurement testing this week, comparing the ULNs and 2882 to an 888 and a PT HDIO192. Comparing accuracy of the recovered signals after roundtrip conversion (out a D/A, captured at the A/D) of each system I found the HDIO to be 6 dB quieter and measured much closer to the source files than the 888 after round trip, with most of the error not surprisingly in the high end (near the filters). Comparing the ULN to the HDIO I found it's converters were measurably better, by almost the same degree the HDIO was over the 888. The 2882 measured almost identically to the HDIO, which kind of surprised me, since the HDIO has a higher res converter chip (it does 192, and has more room in the box for shielding the analog sections). At any rate, this would suggest the 2882's converters are at least as much better than the 002s as the Digi HDIOs are (gauging by price tag and features, that's a pretty big jump).

The pres in the 2882 have a limited gain range due to power limitations, meaning they rock with modern high output mics, and all condensers, but are a tad noisy with ribbons and low-gain dynamics. If that matters, you might want to look at something like MH's ULN2, which has world-beating mic pres, on par with Grace or Millenia (and similiarly uncolored to the Millenias). I think the ULN's have a light-pipe input (Swafford adds: I wish!, but no light pipe), so you can add a Presonus or other outboard mic pre/converter combo down the road if it doesn't have enough channels for you. Then again, that solution would be work with the 2882, so pick your poison.

Finally, the whole shebang will run on FW bus power, so if you have a lappy, you can record with nothing else needed (ok, a spare battery or two!). Great self-contained solution.

I have two MH interfaces, and have used their +DSP for eq, compression, MS work, and parallel compressor balance for years. If you like MH's "Channelstrip" VST/AU plug, you'll LOVE MIOstrip, which is a dedicated version that runs in full 80 bit glorry on all MIOs (2882, 2882+, ULN2, ULN2+), with a couple neat added tricks, like a slideable knee in place of the hard/soft toggle.

I used to advise people not to get the +DSP, but depending on how important sound quality is and the nature of your work, it's becoming a better value. The biggest issue I have with it is it's only accessible in the Console, MH software for controlling and routing MIOs. For mastering, where I might have 6 channels running at most, that's no limitation at all. I treat the MIOs like dedicated outboard hardware processors. But currently you can't use the plugs in the inserts of your DAW. I hear that will be changing soon, but if you need extra DSP for DAW plugs right now, you might want to look at Waves APA or Focusrite's Liquid Mix, which live in Firewire and add a ton. If you can wait a minute, get the +DSP, and use it for your monitor control patching, and as an insert for the time being.

Routing is also a strong point. You can hang a ton of stuff off your MIO permanently, and use it as a patcher/router. My big gripe with the 2882 is it relys on lightpipe instead of something more robust, like AES/EBU, to move multichannel digital signals around. Given it's great patching, this is a real limitation, forcing me to manually connect all my AES/EBU outboard, when I could otherwise construct complex outboard chains in Console. Minor gripe, and possibly a feature if you have lots of lightpipe gear (John Curley uses a Presonus light-pipe mic pre/converter with his 2882 to add 8 channels). Similarly I wish all analog inputs and outputs were XLR, but half are TRS. This was a matter of size: the back panel has no room for 18 XLRs!!

Finally, it's worth noting that SonicStudio, known for high end mastering DAWs uses OEM'ed MIOs and their 80 bit signal path for their current line of mastering systems (Swafford adds: also the ULN pres in thier newer 8 channel unit). This is in a market where money is no object and sound quality is the ONLY issue. Sonic's implemented their EQ's and processing within the MIO's +DSP environment, and are selling custom MIOs to guys who ordinarily buy dcs, Prism, and Lavry because they sound better than anything out there.

The 2882 was the first device in a relatively new category, FW-based computer-controlled audio appliances. It physically separates your audio from the noise of a computer, or for that matter a digital console/recorder, and concentrates a high end analog signal path with the converters, reducing the computer-junk to an absolute minimum and isolating it physically. With the +DSP models it is console + recorder + interface + pres. Unlike the Motu 828, 896, Traveller, or the Digi 002, the MH line is no-compromise, top shelf kit in a portable package. The ULN2 is a bit better today, mostly because the 2882 is an older model with a bit different market (lots of them are in touring racks, for capturing live shows and doing tricky FOH delays and such with +DSP in arenas). Right now the ULN's the ultimate in it's class, but my measurements show the 2882 converters can hold their own against current faves like the Digi HDIOs (which have MUCH newer, higher res parts and blow away older Digi stuff), when fed by the same pres.

-d-
_________________
Dave Davis
Media Designer • Sound Images

[mousdrvr]

Guys,

Thank you very much for putting this stuff up. When I first got here several years ago, ( I mean the community at large ) This was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. It was available and I now own a lot of the stuff mentioned in this thread. But it was spread over many threads in multiple fora. Having it in one sticky is simply a great idea and I'm sure it will be a God send for folks just starting out.

-mous

[nobby]

...Aaaaand here is the bigger rig suggestion:


[FONT="Century Gothic"]Large(ish) Stationary Setup (12 inputs)

The largish setup looks like it's for a limited commercial project studio or home studio -- I'm looking to upgrade, but can we save a few bux here?


Toft ATB16 console ……..$3,500


I already have outboard pres and I want automation, so:

Mackie Control Universal 8-Channel Master Controller....$ 1k

8 channel expansion for above...........$700 -- maybe another eventually.

There are some top AEs here who are on the fence about mixing ITB and others who swear by it.

The MOTU has patching software and there has to be a way of patching your DAW to your outboard for mixing.


RNC.........$175

Best compressor value on the planet to my knowledge. One thing I'd add is that I have a RNLA ($225) and, like the RNC, it's very unimpressive looking, but a super value. I find that the Log Rel function does let me get a bit more useable GR on a drums mix than the RNC, and it's "colored" sound can give you a different kind of retro flavor as opposed to the transparent RNC.

Dynaudio BM5A ……..$1000

(2) Beyerdynamic DT-250 ……..$180/pair

Sennheiser HD-250 II ........$200


You just spent $560 on 3 pair of cans. I don't get it. A setup this size has 1 engineer. You just spent a grand on powered monitors. You're not mixing with the cans. You shelled out $1800 for 12 chanels of converters, but you have 7 mics. We're going to have to save some money somewhere and get more mics.

1) sony MDR-7506..........$100

3) whatever cheap cans for your bandmates @ $50 ea. Fuck'm.


MOTU HD 192 ……..$1800

I was looking into these and was going to start a thread of inquiry. I'm glad to see some input on these, NPI.

Radial JDI ……..$180

AKG D-112 ……..$220

(2) Audio Technica AT-4033 ……..$800

(3) Shure SM-57 ……..$100 ea.

Beyerdynamic M-88 ........$350

Presonus HP-4 ........$100

Soundelux U-195 ........$1050
(see also below for other suggestions)

What's the dif, practically speaking between the M88 and a

Sennheiser MD-421..............$300 (probably cheaper in Europe)

We need 5 more mics so we can mic drums. You don't expect me to read your drum programming tutorial, do ya :grin:

Some combination of SM57s, Beta 57s, maybe Sennheiser e604s for spot mic'ing toms.

I use an Apex 460 as my primary vox mic for my home studio. It's a Chinese knockoff of a Telefunken M16. (http://www.studioreviews.com/m16-460.htm) I love the sound of this mic for (my) vox.

Caveat: the pins for the connector on the mic are skinny, and they bend easily. In a home studio that doesn't matter; leave it plugged in and put a cloth bag over it when its not in use. Also, the elastic bands on the shock mount don't last, but you can get a pack of hair ties at your local big box pharmacy that will constitute a lifetime supply.

I think most people here realise that I don't do AE for a living and what I say should be seen in that context. Corrections and other suggestions are welcome. I think Otek and Malice want to start a discussion here with others chiming in with gear they're familiar with.

[Mixerpuppet]

I'm sure if you have the 11 grand to plunk down on the big rig, you won't be gritting your teeth too much over another D-112. :D LMFAO... IM always gritting my teeth trying to squeeze that last item in the checkout...


Seriously though, I would not mind another 4 I/O.... you're saying Focusrite has a 16-I/O standalone converter in the same price bracket?

8 I/O each box...

The Focusrite Saffire Pro... not part of the Platinum series stuff..
http://www.focusrite.com/product/saffire_pro_26_i_o/
$699.99 Each in US funds...


I guess I have a little past history with the Focusrites.... aside from the Octopre which is decent, the cheapo Focusrite pre's I've tried have been uniformly horrible. This is not to speak badly of their converters per se, which I really don't have much of an idea about.


Maybe a try before you buy scenario to make sure it's not the Platinum Series Pre's...

Did I ask about the ATB's soon to be released Digital I/O options? :grin:

[otek]

There are some top AEs here who are on the fence about mixing ITB and others who swear by it.

Nobby, thanks for the input.

I agree 100% about the ITB mixing, and people should maybe consider spending the money on some kind of I/O, monitor controller and a DAW.

For my personal preference, however, I would much prefer to have a setup which would allow analog summing. If you take the master controller you mentioned, add an expander to it, and a summing box, you are pretty much looking at the same kind of cash (give or take), and that is without the 16 channels of Trident 80b-style EQ.

You just spent $560 on 3 pair of cans. I don't get it. A setup this size has 1 engineer. You just spent a grand on powered monitors. You're not mixing with the cans.

True....

3) whatever cheap cans for your bandmates @ $50 ea. Fuck'm.

...But good headphones for the cue mix is going to be an issue at some point. Sucky cans can ruin the vibe for a musician. Beyers are sturdy, and every part on them is screwed in place, making it easily replaceable. They will last you a long time.

You shelled out $1800 for 12 chanels of converters, but you have 7 mics.

The converters go both ways, come with a PCI card, and are easily expandable. Extra mics can always be added along the way, but if you don't have converters, you are screwed.

The 7 mics I picked are very versatile, you can use them on a wide variety of sources. I was actually planning to add something like the Sennheiser clip-ons, but they are "specialty" mics and pretty much one trick ponies.

A 57 on the rack and a Beyer M88 on the floor will give you great tom sounds. Both mics can then be used on guitar or bass amp, percussion, vocals, you name it, and will not be a compromise.

What's the dif, practically speaking between the M88 and a Sennheiser MD-421..............$300 (probably cheaper in Europe)

They're very different sonically. I would say I get more "grabby" low end with the 88. I would also not hesitate to use an 88 on vox, whereas I would really think twice before sticking a 421 in front of a singer.

We need 5 more mics so we can mic drums.

I would use the 4033's for a "recorderman" type thing, the toms as described above (as needed), a 57 on the snare and the 112 in the kick. Malice's choice of a Beyer 201 is also excellent, the Beyer is an awesome snare mic.

I use an Apex 460 as my primary vox mic for my home studio.

I have never tried one, but I've heard good things about them.
The Soundelux is a personal fave in the "budget" LDC department however, and I am soooo jealous about how you can get them "over there" for just over a grand.
:Roll eyes:

[Swafford]

So I've been looking to upgrade my vocal mic when I get this tracking paid off. Currently I'm using a Rode K2 w/ a NOS Mullard tube or a Gefell UM70. They're ok, I guess. The U67 we tracked vocals with a few months ago kind of blew me away (one session through an SSL the other through a Manely Duo Mono). Soft and huge and gritty and smooth all at the same time. I loved it on my very manly and special baritone. Gives me a mental boner everytime I listen to those tracks. Of course I can't afford one. So I've been looking at the used pirces of the Soundelux U195 or the Brauner Phantom C and considering, if the price was especially favorable, a U99 or Valvet. I know a lot of variables involved here, but if you had some thoughts, I'd love to hear them, I'm trying to track down some locals who might have them to test. It's primary purpose would be to track my vocals against acoustic guitar and fiddle.

[malice]

So I've been looking to upgrade my vocal mic when I get this tracking paid off. Currently I'm using a Rode K2 w/ a NOS Mullard tube or a Gefell UM70. They're ok, I guess. The U67 we tracked vocals with a few months ago kind of blew me away (one session through an SSL the other through a Manely Duo Mono). Soft and huge and gritty and smooth all at the same time. I loved it on my very manly and special baritone. Gives me a mental boner everytime I listen to those tracks. Of course I can't afford one. So I've been looking at the used pirces of the Soundelux U195 or the Brauner Phantom C and considering, if the price was especially favorable, a U99 or Valvet. I know a lot of variables involved here, but if you had some thoughts, I'd love to hear them, I'm trying to track down some locals who might have them to test. It's primary purpose would be to track my vocals against acoustic guitar and fiddle.


Haaaaa, but there are no substitute for a good U67.

You see, I will try to help, but this kind og question raise a big red flag in my head. You will find plenty of forums with people will rave about their recent aquisition that they will claim to be the closest thing they found comparing to the <insert famous Neumann/Telefunken/AKG here> you are seeking for a 1/3 of the price.

Then a choir will suggest a plethora of recreations made of NOS tubes and chinese capsules.

Let's cut the crap: the best way to give you that bonner is to use the 67 that gave you the boner: and when I say "the" I meant "that very" U67. Because two 67s can behave very differently.

So what to tell you if you don't intend to spend 5000$ on a fully serviced and quality piece of unobtanium german engineering piece of gear ?

Well, after this big disclaimer, and if you are trying to find something approaching the U67, I would say that looking for a U99 might be a good idea. Again, you might not find it as cool as a U67, but it's a very good mike, and Oooooh, surprise, it uses the same tube as the U67 (ef86). It might be a bit more beefy, but it's a very good piece of equipment.
It's a continuous multipatern mic, so you will be using this on plenty of other apps.

You can also check on the Soundelux U95 (not U95S) , discontinued now, that was the predecessor of the U99. It's a great vocal mic that does not handdle a lot of SPL. It will be brighter than the U99 though, but that might resemble more to a U67 actually, although I sort of remember it has a bit more top end than the Neumann.

I would put the U195 more in the 87 category and the PhantomC in the 47fet category, but again, these kind of comment are a bit too gearslutish to be taken seriously.

The Valvet is a great microphone, very different from any vintage mics I can think of. You have to try it. Brauner is not seeking a "vintage hype vibe" when designing. They are trying to do good modern mikes, and they are doing a pretty good job at it. Maybe I should buy some and resell them when they'll be vintage wonders 40 years from now.

Now you're confused :Roll eyes:


malice

[Swafford]

Naw, not confused, I was fishing for what you said. I realize nothing but the U67 I used will be like the U67 I used (or actually the 3 I used through various sgnal paths and operators, but I can draw from each experience that it was lovely). I'm also aware of the spankings applied to people that make similar inquiries, which is why I also suppled the kind if voice I have (gritty baritone) and the application (w/ guitar and fiddle) to help narrow down the slapfest. I'm aware of the Slut phenomena, I mean, they're sluts, afterall, not high priced call girls. Sluts are, by definition, easy and not discriminating, even if they can suck you dry. I'm just looking for a vocal mic for a gritty baritone that will have, a little more there there (if i may rip off Gertrude).

For comparison, as someone whose owned a lot of acoustic guitars over the years, I know when someone asks me what kind of guitar should they buy that will give them some of the feel of that 1939 Martin D-28 they played a Joe Bob's Guitar Shop, I can confidently say a Bourgeois Vintage D or a Collings or a Santa Cruz of similar build will approach that sound and leave them satisfied. Why can I say that? because I've played a lot of these guitars and am confident in my experience with them. Are there guitars that have different build styles that will be different in sound then that '39 Martin, but will work within the context of what they are playing? Yeah, most likely. I've been using this Bourgeois Slope D for some bluegrassy style folk lately (with !!GOD FORBID!! phosphour bronze strings!), and loving it. It just plays off nicely against the fiddle, with out to much boom and no bust. As always, play before you pay or get a return policy in writing if its used and no cry babies! I'm thinking the same logic and methodology can be applied to micophones even though the variables are different.

I appreciate your response!

[nobby]

Nobby, thanks for the input.

I agree 100% about the ITB mixing, and people should maybe consider spending the money on some kind of I/O, monitor controller and a DAW.

For my personal preference, however, I would much prefer to have a setup which would allow analog summing. If you take the master controller you mentioned, add an expander to it, and a summing box, you are pretty much looking at the same kind of cash (give or take), and that is without the 16 channels of Trident 80b-style EQ.

I hear you. You're a perfectionist, and you're "spoiled" by using classic analog desks. I'm talking about a budget with which you'd have to forgo analog summing. That would include most home studios, and probably many lower end commercial project studios. Also, no automation? I'm totally hooked on it, for better or worse.

If there was something critical you wanted to EQ ITB, you'd have to go to your UAD-1 and use the cambridge or pultec plugs. Supposedly the EQ in Cubase 4 is decent, relatively speaking. I'm not under the illusion that these are the same as really good analog EQs, but for those who frequently find themselves using the terms, "get away with" and "for the money"...:Wink:

[otek]

I hear you.

...And I totally hear you, Nob. In fact, my current "home" setup is as painfully ITB as it can be. Some decent plugins, but the hardware side is nothing to write home about.

I am in the process of upgrading right now, though. :Coolio:

One really nice upgrade about to happen is the SSL Duende (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/duende_home.html) which allows 32 instances of channel strip or SSL bus compressor plugins.

[Old Man]

SSL told me yesterday at NAMM that you may need a seperate PCI or PCIe firewire card to run Duende if you are using firewire drives on your inboard firewire ports. This may be a similiar issue to running Mojo and having it swamp out your firewire buss.

So, grasshopper, do you have open slots?

[nobby]

SSL told me yesterday at NAMM that you may need a seperate PCI or PCIe firewire card to run Duende if you are using firewire drives on your inboard firewire ports. This may be a similiar issue to running Mojo and having it swamp out your firewire buss.

So, grasshopper, do you have open slots?

I'm upgrading to a new desktop. It will be a large tower and (lack of) slots shouldn't be a problem.

[malice]

SSL told me yesterday at NAMM that you may need a seperate PCI or PCIe firewire card to run Duende if you are using firewire drives on your inboard firewire ports. This may be a similiar issue to running Mojo and having it swamp out your firewire buss.

So, grasshopper, do you have open slots?


That doesn't surprise me. But I think I have 2 firewire buss on my G5, one is a Firewire 800 and one a Firewire 400. I guess I could run duende with the 400 and leave the 800 for the HDs


malice

[malice]

Update :

I have heard of one or two voices questioning the utility of such a thread. Of course, while I feel it would have been appropriate to respond here so that we can all debate within the boudaries of constructive criticisim, I'm willing to respond to them publically.

As "ill-advised" as this may appear, Otek and myself were trying to help some of the posters asking us about such a thread. We didn't intend to respond to every particular recording need of every particular recordist, it is much more to be taken as a base of discussion and I have no doubt that if you are recording acoustic guitars only or nickelhapa, you should update the list a little in order to find a better suited solution to your setup.

We do work on records for a living mind you, and I can assure you we wouldn't feel uncomfortable working with these setups as "basic" or "prosumer" that it might appear to some.

We therefore would be very opened to better suggestions given that you respect the "work specifications" of these setups wich are:

1) a 3000$ setup, computer and acoustic treatment not included allowing to record two tracks at a time

2) a 11000 $ setup, computer and acoustic treatment not included allowing to record a typical band (bass, drums, guitars, singer) at a time.

Needless to say it is not that an easy task to stay in the ball park of this budget and you will have to compromise.

But it's fun to try, and if you find better solutions than us, we'll modify the original post in order to keep this up to date and give what we think is the best bang for the buck setup on the market to record your music according to sufficient professional standarts (given that you know how to do it, of course).

We also want to post a similar thread to built a good DAW system for very little money. We have a very good member for this job, we're trying to page him as we speak.

Again, feel free to post here if you still feel this thread has no purpose, and that we're a bunch of "idiots", I don't recall ourselves refusing to discuss about anything as long as it stays on topics.

This post might sound like a personal "response" to some, but I guess it should make sense to a wider audience as well, therefore,

thanx for listening

malice

[nobby]

Malice:

We also want to post a similar thread to built a good DAW system for very little money. We have a very good member for this job, we're trying to page him as we speak.

I'd be very interested in seeing this.

[otek]

I was actually unaware that there had been such vehement response to this thread, having received neither PM's nor commentary about it.

The idea behind this thread was not, I can assure you, to annoy people, but to inspire discussion, and perhaps provide a direction when considering gear purchases. No one here is suggesting you should go out and buy exactly the above setups, in fact you should never buy anything without properly evaluating it first.

The setups will also be modified when better (or equal but more cost-effective) gear comes on the market and can be evaluated.

[malice]

I was actually unaware that there had been such vehement response to this thread, having received neither PM's nor commentary about it.



Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm taliking about some chating with dude "A" telling me how dude "B" is bashing us privately.

It's not like Dude "B" has enough spine to tell you what he thinks in your face :D

whatever

malice

[lebouche]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm taliking about some chating with dude "A" telling me how dude "B" is bashing us privately.

It's not like Dude "B" has enough spine to tell you what he thinks in your face :D

whatever

malice

Well as long as deep down they are doth dudes:lol:

[xiangtao]

The Motu I know well. Not to be compared to any of their other converters, these are rock solid medium range converters with comfortable display. I'm a mac user, PC people would prefer RME that would do as well).

So as I am a PC user, what particular RME unit would be the best choice for a similar setup?

[otek]

So as I am a PC user, what particular RME unit would be the best choice for a similar setup?

Well, after quickly browsing the RME site (I suggest you do the same), what seems to most closely resemble the features of the MOTU would be one ADI-192 DD and one ADI-4 DD (making up 12 channels), routed through a HDSP AES-32 AES/EBU card. This combo would do 24-bit, 96 KHz audio (limited only by the ADI-4).

You could of course make use of the 16 I/O capability of the AES-32 and get two of the ADI-192 modules, giving you full 16 I/O capability at 192 KHz. You'd better get some fast disks though....! ;) :D

The ADI-192 units run you $1300 apiece, and the AES-32 card about $800, so the whole combo would put you at $3400 dollars - almost twice the price of the MOTU. At that price, I would probably be inclined to add a little and go with a Lynx setup instead.

Forgoing the highest sample rates and 16 channel I/O, you could get the aforementioned ADI-4 DD and ADI-192 with a HDSP 9652 card - this would allow you 12 channels of 24-bit, 96 KHz operation. Note that ADAT lightpipe doesn't support higher sample rates than 48 KHz, so you would have to make use of the Sample Split capabilities of the HDSP card in order to use 96 KHz.

That combo would run you $2600.

You could somewhat match the price by getting one ADI-192 with the HDSP 9652 for 8-channel operation.



Cheers,

otek



PS. DISCLAIMER: I have not personally used any of the above equipment except for the HDSP 9652, which is a great card IMHO. All of the above is based on price/feature comparison only.

[mousdrvr]

I was just coming up here to thank Otek for yet another great rec. I see there has been a little drama for mama :Roll eyes:

Well here's a dissenting opinion.

I'm serious about this shit, way too serious to waste any fucking time fronting that I do this shit anywhere other than a shitty little box of a room. I can't spend 10's of thousands $/year I can only do a handful. I want that handful to fucking count. If I have the opportunity to get these types of recommendations from Dudes whose work I know and greatly respect, I'm going to gratefully accept them. I don't care who the hell thinks that's a doomed effort. Really what's my alternative? roll up a fatty, spend a few minutes complaining that I don't have 3000 cubic feet of space and a large format console, and then flip on the 360? Fuck that!


Otek, Malice

The M88, RNP, RNC, 8020's, and the U-195 are all working out just great.

Thank you! :Thumbsup:

[xiangtao]

The ADI-192 units run you $1300 apiece, and the AES-32 card about $800, so the whole combo would put you at $3400 dollars - almost twice the price of the MOTU. At that price, I would probably be inclined to add a little and go with a Lynx setup instead.


So if one were so inclined to spend the extra money, to go with Lynx you would be looking at something like an Aurora 16 and AES 16? Does that seem like it would be the right combination with the Toft board?

And I am also of the opinion that this thread is far from a futile effort. There are so many products out there that, to me anyway, it is great to have people who have used much of it and are willing to share their experiences and expertise in order that the rest of us might gain some knowledge.

[otek]

So if one were so inclined to spend the extra money, to go with Lynx you would be looking at something like an Aurora 16 and AES 16? Does that seem like it would be the right combination with the Toft board?

The Aurora 16 and the AES are a pretty penny, but still competitively priced - I dare say one of the very few quality AD/DA converters in this moderate price bracket.

Let's not forget, however, that Toft are busy designing their own AD/DA, which rumor has it, will be offered as a built in option for their consoles in the near future.

And I am also of the opinion that this thread is far from a futile effort.

Thank you very much for those words. We did put some time into compiling these packages, and even though people may not always agree with us, it's certainly a good starting point for discussion. Which is the whole idea.


Cheers,

otek

[jdier]

That combo would run you $2600.



I do not fully understand all of the specs of the MOTU, but my initial reaction for a modern day RME equivelant would be to look at the FireFace 800 and an OctaMic-D. This will get you 16 ins and outs with ability to add an additional 8 with another OctaMic-D. You should be able to land those two peices for about $2200.

[otek]

I do not fully understand all of the specs of the MOTU, but my initial reaction for a modern day RME equivelant would be to look at the FireFace 800 and an OctaMic-D. This will get you 16 ins and outs with ability to add an additional 8 with another OctaMic-D. You should be able to land those two peices for about $2200.

That would certainly be a good option if you wanted to stay ITB, which I take it is what you're looking for since you're adding extra preamps (i.e. no console-based solution). There would be a couple of problems - I am a little skeptical to a Firewire system operating with anything above 16 I/O, and for higher sample rates, you would be somewhat limited in your routing options since you are dealing with ADAT lightpipe.

Other than that, it's probably not a bad idea for a system.


otek

[santeri]

I am a little skeptical to a Firewire system operating with anything above 16 I/O

It's a FW800 interface, though, so the bandwidth is (in theory) twice that of the standard FW.

[ffaudio]

Have you guys heard the ADAM A7's? Looks to be only a bit more than the monitors you guys chose (well, $300ish more) but they're supposed to be great right? I'm going to be upgrading my Yorkies to them in the next couple months.

[weedywet]

What would you use an AT 4033 for? and why?

[Mixerpuppet]

What would you use an AT 4033 for? and why?

Do a search "recorderman" drum mic'ing technique...



AFAIK, from my memory, it's a good value LDC capable of sounding decent enough on alot of sources to get by on a budget. Not suckie not stellar...

When your on a limited budget you have to compromise to get the best you can without sucking.

Beggars cain't be choosers :)

I think in the range of funding discussed here there are alot of mics that are a coin toss, like the Focusrite verses Presonus pieces.

I'm stuck using a CAD $99.00 4 piece special for drums because my daughter's braces ate my funding...

[otek]

What would you use an AT 4033 for? and why?

Well, basically it's one of the few 400 dollar LCD's I've tried that sounds worth a damn. It's not a great mic by any chance, but it's versatile in part due to the fact that it takes a lot of SPL - you can use it on toms or bass amp without it crapping out, and the high end is much nicer than most of the cheapo chinese LDC's. This makes it a good choice for hobbyists with small budgets.

Cheers,

otek

[Zoesch]

Bringing my opinion from beyond the grave...

The point of threads like these (For those who questioned it) is to open some discussion around building your DAW. In the end if all you can afford is an MBox mini, that's all you're gonna buy (Unless you wait of course).

Bear in mind that building a system can involve a ton of tradeoffs some which might not be that apparent when you start drafting the system specs (Of course, thanks to the internet we're all two clicks away from being insta-experts on basically anything)

If you don't like a mic suggested then suggest your option, who knows it might work out well, or it might be quite specific to your application, your mileage will vary.

Just thought it was important to point out. And please... keep it coming!

[PatF]

The Heil Sound large diaphragm dynamics have caught my eye.

There are three models from $150-$325. They seem reputable and pretty much say that their shit can hang with anything.

Anyone have an opinion on them? I'd like to use the PR30 as a guitar amp room mic, or maybe a pair for overhead drum mics.

This thread has been helpful to me. Decisions on buying gear are so hard. I feel the advise here is trustworthy

Thanks,
Pat

[Buzzgrowl]

We also want to post a similar thread to built a good DAW system for very little money. We have a very good member for this job, we're trying to page him as we speak.

Not pushing on this but it would be cool. Can we somehow encourage this very good member?
cheers

[Cary Chilton]

paging Mr Dye......:Coolio:

[Cary Chilton]

I need to know, are the vintage (white) Senn 421's worth the cash compared to say a mid-eighties Senn 421 model?

Also, I noticed all kinds of codes on the really old white case models, at the end the 421:
421-N, 421-HL etc.... Is this really important to know about when buying for micing guitar ( maybe drums)?

[gilligan204]

Bringing my opinion from beyond the grave...

The point of threads like these (For those who questioned it) is to open some discussion around building your DAW. In the end if all you can afford is an MBox mini, that's all you're gonna buy (Unless you wait of course).


Hey guys, I'm considering getting a little system running for home, I'm mac @ the studio, however I'm either considering getting a used powerbook (g4) or and ibook (g3) as I cant afford a new mac, OR a new dell (the new colored ones , cant think of the name) and a mbox (possibly an original)

I like macs, but I'm not opposed to having a PC, my main use for the rig will be dicking around at home and having fun. posibbly doing a little mixing.

1 thing i was gonna say is that I am definatly not going to be using vista.

So the question is , a few older generation mac laptop, or the new dell laptop, does anyone have some thoughts on the new dell, I have a dell desktop at home and I like it.

I 'm thinking I can probally get more horsepower for the money outta the dell.

thoughts ??

[otek]

A new PC (with the current Intel Core processors) will naturally be more powerful than a 3 year old Mac. Der.

More durable? Depends on the machine I suppose.

I still own an old G4 for offline purposes. I bought it in 2002, and so far I've had absolutely zero hardware related problems, whereas my PC during the same time frame has seen a couple of disk crashes and memory problems.

Do what you want with that information - it is definitely no scientific observation, merely a real-life account which may or may not apply to anyone else.


otek

[HOOK]

Mac users get more chicks than Pc users..that is common knowledge...:Razz:



HOOK

[ffaudio]

Otek, would you still recommend the HD192 in the sub 2k price range for A/D? Just curious since I'm at that stage now to upgrade.

The hd192 seems good to me because it's 12 instead of the usual 8 i/o and then also I can upgrade it later through BLA.

[otek]

Otek, would you still recommend the HD192 in the sub 2k price range for A/D? Just curious since I'm at that stage now to upgrade.

I still think in this price range, with the easy upgrade possibilities, the HD192 is good bang for the buck.


otek

[Strat+AC30]

Malice & Otek, I want to offer another "thanks" for this thread. Nothing will beat a hands-on listening experience, but this is a close second.

Like a poster on the other page, I'm also curious if anyone has heard the Adam A7's. $1000 price tag; you can also add a matching sub for $700 more.

[otek]

Malice & Otek, I want to offer another "thanks" for this thread. Nothing will beat a hands-on listening experience, but this is a close second.

Thanks for the kudos! Glad you found it informative! :)

Like a poster on the other page, I'm also curious if anyone has heard the Adam A7's. $1000 price tag; you can also add a matching sub for $700 more.

Sounds like a good deal. I don't have any experience with the A7's personally, though I have clocked a few hours on the P11's which I found to be pretty good, although a bit awkward for me at first - I do most of my work on Genelecs....


otek

[Strat+AC30]

I do not fully understand all of the specs of the MOTU, but my initial reaction for a modern day RME equivelant would be to look at the FireFace 800 and an OctaMic-D. This will get you 16 ins and outs with ability to add an additional 8 with another OctaMic-D. You should be able to land those two peices for about $2200.

That would certainly be a good option if you wanted to stay ITB, which I take it is what you're looking for since you're adding extra preamps (i.e. no console-based solution). There would be a couple of problems - I am a little skeptical to a Firewire system operating with anything above 16 I/O, and for higher sample rates, you would be somewhat limited in your routing options since you are dealing with ADAT lightpipe.

Other than that, it's probably not a bad idea for a system.I just picked up an RME Fireface800 and wanted to add a few comments:

(1) The manual (http://www.rme-audio.com/english/download/fface800_e.pdf) is HUGE and VERY detailed in explanations. I'm an EE (though computers aren't my line of study/work) and I still learned a lot about digital audio, specifically how Firewire handles it + why PCI is a better solution after a certain point. Though I use a laptop, so PCI isn't an option for me.
(2) The manual also discusses track counts using various inputs and combinations of inputs and is pretty honest, e.g. "with our test computers, we could get x channels at 96khz, but when we bumped it to y channels, we started losing audio data packets." IIRC, 18 channels at 96kHz is very do-able, but that's about as fast is it can go for one unit. (Granted: ADAT format has its' own bandwidth limitations: one ADAT connection will carry 8 channels at 48k, 4 at 96k and IIRC will not work at 192k.)
(3) The Firewire 800 (instead of Firewire 400) makes absolutely no difference when only using one unit. The 800 DOES make a difference when using two units. (And by unit, I mean an "RME Fireface800" - you can use up to three, I believe.)
(4) The drivers are rock solid on Windows XP. I searched the web endlessly before getting this guy and not once did I run into an example of driver problems.
(5) Unfortunately, the limitations of my room and monitoring system + my lack of experience with higher-end units don't allow me to comment on sound quality issues, except to say "it sounds great to me and better than my old Firepod."

Two other salient points:
- the onboard mixer (which handles all inputs, all outputs, and I believe 24 seperate DAW tracks) is awesome. Can anyone say "individual stereo mixes for everyone in the band"?
- Otek is absolutely right about expandibility. The FF800 is great for anyone who needs (1) mobility or (2) only 16 I/O @ 96k or (3) 24 I/O at 48k. If your needs are greater than that - you'll need something else.

Hope that helps someone, somewhere.
Dave

[Homebrew]

Malcolm Toft talking about the Toft ATB console and other things.

Part 1: http://www.gearwire.com/atb-console-malcom-toft1.html
Part 2: http://www.gearwire.com/atb-console-malcom-toft2.html

Also, +1 for the RNC, even if it is unbalanced. Great value.

Also in the bang for buck dept (and without trying to sound like a fanboy) the Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver DI is a nifty little gadget which can also double as a standard DI and can be found for less than $200 US. Sounds good live, too.

Homebrew.

[pootkao]

The Radial JDI is a high quality DI which among other things allows you to sum two signals to mono. The LittleLabs Red Eye, suggested by Malice, seems a lot more versatile (since it offers reamping) and probably sounds equally great, and would quite possibly have been on my list, had I actually tried it.



I use my Radial to re-amp all the time. You just use it in reverse.

[synthetic]

For desktop studios, RME is coming out with a 32x32 ADAT interface for PCIe:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdspe_raydat.php

They're going to have Mac and Windows drivers, so it should work well in a Mac Pro. I've been looking for something like the Apogee Ensemble system but not locked into their format. This would allow you to use any ADAT-based AD/DA, whether Lynx, Apogee, SSL/Soundscape, IZ, etc.

Up until now, the only solutions for >24 channels of I/O were Alsihad and Ensemble. This one looks like a winner to me. RME gear is solid.

[waterboy]

That would be a definite winner for a lot of folks... I know that if I am able to get the equipment that I have my eye on - this would come in very handy!

[myrtlebacker]

Like a poster on the other page, I'm also curious if anyone has heard the Adam A7's. $1000 price tag; you can also add a matching sub for $700 more.

I had the older A7s (P-3xxxxx ?) series, where the volume knob goes to +6 and I exchanged them with the newer series (P-4xxxxx ?) where the Volume goes to +0. The newer series seems to have a better constructed amplifier. I was frankly disappointed with the noisiness of my first pair

[otek]

That would be a definite winner for a lot of folks... I know that if I am able to get the equipment that I have my eye on - this would come in very handy!


Radar? :D


otek

[waterboy]

Yes, sir.

I just posted on another thread that iZ sent me an eMail stating that they have officially released the ADA .....

*drool*

edit: I stand corrected. The email was from Rack -n- Roll Audio (who sells iZ products).

[otek]

Yes, sir.

Awesome dude!!!!

Some serious Logic rig you'll have there.



otek

[waterboy]

And to think - our very own Cheech already has a RADAR system with Logic ...... lucky dog!

I got to see his setup last night - and I was very impressed - both with what I saw - and (especially) what I heard!

:Thumbsup:

[Fulcrum]

Otek, Malice: now that this thread is close to two years old and we've been entertaining very cogent and provocative discussion along the way..

Have any of your initial recommendations changed at all, what with the advent of newer models in each of the categories you've outlined? Would you reconsider any of your choices based on the fact that your own tastes may have changed?

[otek]

Would you reconsider any of your choices based on the fact that your own tastes may have changed?

Without a doubt this thread needs an overhaul. I am currently traveling, but as soon as I get home again I will discuss this with Malice.


otek

[HalfBlood]

Looking forward to it :)

[atoysruskid]

Without a doubt this thread needs an overhaul. I am currently traveling, but as soon as I get home again I will discuss this with Malice.


otek


just curious if any further thought has been put into an update. it seems like every week there's some great looking (and hopefully sounding) new gear coming out...

[daleandtheguitar]

Hmmmm...?

[otek]

It seems like every week there's some great looking (and hopefully sounding) new gear coming out...

It's going to happen, but it's rather time-consuming work, and it's hard to make schedules match.

On top of that, even though new gear is coming out, the objective of this thread is to provide suggestions on a setup that Malice and I can safely "approve" - i.e. we have to have actually worked on the equipment! And speaking for myself, I do get to test a few things but nowhere near all the stuff that comes out.

Even though the previous list contained mostly gear that we both had experience with and which fit the proposed budget (believe me, this is a lot harder than it looks!), we had to allow for a couple of items where we relied on recommendation from trusted parties rather than direct experience. The Toft console is an example of this. We have since acquired that experience, and in the bang-for-the-buck unified solution department, there's still very little out there to give it a run for its money.

Another thing we need to ask ourselves is, has this GAS thread reached its stated goal? At first, the idea was to provide a reference to good gear in a reasonable price bracket, so we wouldn't have to regurgitate the same form reply every time someone asked for tips on a good dynamic (I still like and use the same ones). In this regard, the thread had almost no effect whatsoever. What happened instead was that people got miffed about how we'd not included their pet pieces of gear. The goal was never to give an objective survey of all the available gear out there, but simply to give a good example of a rig from our point of view and experience, i.e. things we've used and worked on.

Hopefully we will have time to discuss this soon and get a revised list out there.


otek

[daleandtheguitar]

Understood. I mean, once a good piece of kit, always a good piece of kit, right? And it's not like you're S.O.S. reviewers with nothing to do but twiddle and fiddle with new gear. I am mostly curious about the larger format studios, but I think a lot of the expansion in higher I/O counts has been in the prosumer area, the market aimed at... well, aimed at me. And they have hit hard. I have personally enjoyed this thread immensely because I don't want to have gear that will become unused or embarassing. It's nice to have an honest opinion about gear. And let's face it; the trade mags aren't exactly ruthless in their reviews. I've never seen a product get less than "pretty good... if you're looking for a (product x), then the (name of this particular product x) is worth checking out." Sometimes it seems like reviews are cut-and-paste and I think that's one reason why a few of us periodically prompt for updates on this thread. It's still a valuable resource that you should be proud of.



D.


P.S. - I'm surprised that no-one else listed their own comprehensive set-up. It's not like Malice and Otek said it was exclusive membership in this club...

[Buzzgrowl]

(and yeah, that's Gear Acquisition Syndrome, y'all)We have been kicking around the idea of posting a thread with examples of good-quality recording rigs.

trying to cut corners here, ... while remaining in a comfortable quality zone.

Given the original suggestions date from January 2007, would anyone be interested in revising or refreshing the list, with their own experience as a reference?

The 2nd quote is technically out of context (relates only to one component choice), but I think it reflects the overall intent.

cheers, - Buzzgrowl

[Fulcrum]

It seems to me that Otek's post (two replies up) might still stand, given his reasoning.

[otek]

I have begun to revise my list.

Still a few inconsistencies in there, and a few more changes that need to be made. Everything has gotten a bit more expensive in four and a half years.



otek

[JNZ-AE]

Be keen to see this updated list to today's prices and new products.