Cabinet in the other room

[glitchfactor]

How does everyone track guitar with the cab in the studio and the head in the control room when you have a REAL long way to go, or maybe all you have is XLR tie lines in between?

Do you guys have REALLY long speaker cables or what?

[M.Brane]

I can't do it that way. I gotta have some interaction between the cab, and the guitar.

If I did do it that way though it would be balanced interconnects with the head as close to the cab as possible. Maybe if you turn the monitors up real loud it might work.

[Tommy Fobia]

Maybe if you turn the monitors up real loud it might work.

Thats the way I tend to do it, and it seems to have worked fine so far.

Yes I use very long speaker cables. :)

[CaptainHook]

I used to have the guitarist in the room with the cab.
Now i use a speaker cable going from control room to live.
Put 2 of them in. Not that long but long enough.
The ability to quickly change heads, amp settings, and prob most
important not have to communicate to the artist through a mic
and speaker far outweighs the interaction of guitar and cab for me.

Occasionally i send them in the live room, not often.
I also don't like speakers in the control room too loud
too often. Gives me a headache.

Despite this, I actually feel i get better performances/parts/sounds
with my current arrangement. Probably in that order.

[Jasco]

I usually use a long speaker cord.

For certain amps where that is not an option, I'll use a preamp to buffer the signal.

If I need extra interaction between the amp and guitar (such as for feedback) I'll split the signal into a second small amp in the control room with a volume pedal before it to dial in the amount of amp sound I need for what I'm doing.

[Tommy Fobia]

I used to have the guitarist in the room with the cab.
Now i use a speaker cable going from control room to live.
Put 2 of them in. Not that long but long enough.
The ability to quickly change heads, amp settings, and prob most
important not have to communicate to the artist through a mic
and speaker far outweighs the interaction of guitar and cab for me.

Occasionally i send them in the live room, not often.
I also don't like speakers in the control room too loud
too often. Gives me a headache.

Despite this, I actually feel i get better performances/parts/sounds
with my current arrangement. Probably in that order.

:Thumbsup:

100% agree with everything you've just said.

[AxeSlash]

These days I'm normally in a one-room situation, so generally communication isn't a problem, but in the past I've done the long speaker cable thing. Just make sure it's a good quality cable with hefty diameter cores and you should be fine.

I still prefer the dude stood near his amp though so he can hear all the SHIT that happens when he doesn't mute strings properly or whatever. When something that loud is in your ear, it magnifies everything, whereas when it's nicely sat in context in the control room it can hide shit.

In situations where everyone is reasonably relaxed I also prefer everyone present bar me to hear the part on it's own so they can point out anything crap that the 'muso' missed and that I may not have heard due it being masked by owt else in the initial mix.

Call me a masochist, I don't care :D

[weedywet]

nothing is a perfect solution.

but if it get longer than say 20ft, I don't think it sounds that great with a longer than that speaker cable,

so I often use a wireless transmitter set up and put the whole thing in the other room.
Yes, it requires running out there to make changes, but you still get the guitar player or bass player in the control room without losing so much signal.
it certainly changes the sound, but necessarily in a bad way.

[sqkychair]

I have a fairly short run. I just use a beefy speaker cable.

Putting the head in the room with me and the speaker in another room just fixed so many problems, since I track myself.

It's so easy to dial in amp sounds and I can immediately listen back on the DAW monitors to see what is going on. I love monitoring right there at the DAW so that I have a damn good idea about what is actually going to "tape" instead of what I think I hear right at the amp. The workflow is better.

I used to have the whole amp in iso, but I found it extrememly difficult running back and forth to adjust the amp, recording, listening back, and then running back in to move the gain one notch.

[binaural turbine]

I usually use a long speaker cord.

For certain amps where that is not an option, I'll use a preamp to buffer the signal.

If I need extra interaction between the amp and guitar (such as for feedback) I'll split the signal into a second small amp in the control room with a volume pedal before it to dial in the amount of amp sound I need for what I'm doing.

If there is a second amp in the control room to get interaction between guitar and amp, the sound is also coming out of the live room amp into the mic?

[Bob Olhsson]

I was amazed by how much better a first generation custom Nady wireless sounded than any other method we tried. Probably the best feature was that it totally eliminated Strat noise.

Of course recording guitar in the womb also eliminated several dozen JBL 4311 midranges and tweeters but that goes with the territory.

[Jasco]

If there is a second amp in the control room to get interaction between guitar and amp, the sound is also coming out of the live room amp into the mic?

Yes.

[weedywet]

I was amazed by how much better a first generation custom Nady wireless sounded than any other method we tried. Probably the best feature was that it totally eliminated Strat noise.

Of course recording guitar in the womb also eliminated several dozen JBL 4311 midranges and tweeters but that goes with the territory.

Yes.
And the Nadys STILL sound amongst the best of the choices...

I find it amazing/amusing that people will run a 50 ft guitar cable and accept the signal loss, ut they'll be resistant to the very IDEA of a wireless because "it changes the sound"! :very happy:

[Tommy Fobia]

Yes.
And the Nadys STILL sound amongst the best of the choices...

I find it amazing/amusing that people will run a 50 ft guitar cable and accept the signal loss, ut they'll be resistant to the very IDEA of a wireless because "it changes the sound"! :very happy:

Hahaha!

I love my wireless system, however I have all my heads in the CR. I'm too lazy to stand up to rig up another amp. I'd rather just unplug the speaker jack and plug it into another amp.

Incidentally, most of my guitar recording/reamping is done at my place, which is pretty small so I can keep the cable run under 20'.

[weedywet]

That's the trick.

20 feet with a good HEAVY speaker cable is a reaosnable length.
but much longer and it stops being workable, in my view.

I've used wireless on the other hand in HUGE rooms like AIR or Abbey Road; perhaps 50 or 60 feet away, with success.

[Tommy Fobia]

I've used wireless on the other hand in HUGE rooms like AIR or Abbey Road.

How big was the amp?!!!
:icon_eek: :lol:

[otek]

20 feet with a good HEAVY speaker cable is a reasonable length.
but much longer and it stops being workable, in my view.

I am a little confused here.

I totally embrace and understand the usage of short signal cables between guitar and amp (where the differences are huge) but you are having problems with extended speaker cable runs?

With a solid, high grade, heavy gauge speaker cable, I must say I have a very hard time hearing any difference. Then again, I probably haven't used much more than 20-30 feet, ever. Mostly less.


otek

[AxeSlash]

I am a little confused here.

I totally embrace and understand the usage of short signal cables between guitar and amp (where the differences are huge) but you are having problems with extended speaker cable runs?

With a solid, high grade, heavy gauge speaker cable, I must say I have a very hard time hearing any difference. Then again, I probably haven't used much more than 20-30 feet, ever. Mostly less.


otek

My day job includes doing cabling specs for hefty PA systems, and generally speaking we only worry about speaker runs if they're REALLY long, i.e. over, say, 60m or so. But then again we use 2.5mm cable on everything, 4mm where it's worth it (e.g. subs) - most cheapass jack to jack speaker cables don't come close to that size, but still I think I'd struggle to hear the difference between a 10m x 1mm (for argument's sake) speaker cable and a 30m x 1mm...

...unless the neg core is actually a screen or something equally stupid, in which case, yeah, problems will happen.

I was also under the impression that all that happens with a long speaker cable run is a slight level drop (depending on what is actually going down the cable in terms of power), and a uniform HF drop...maybe I've been fed misinformation though. I've never directly compared different lengths of speaker cable.

The other thing to bear in mind is how hefty the amp is - we run 4mm cable for stuff that's measured in thousands of watts, so I think a well made 2.5mm cable will go one hell of a long way with a 100 watt guitar head before you have to worry about signal degradation or picking up extraneous shit.

As for wireless...let's just say that I steer the hell clear of them where I can, especially in high gain situations. I know a little about what goes on at each end of those systems, and it was enough to make me fuck that idea right off.

Well ok, if you gimme a SERIOUS system (Shure U4D + U1 springs to mind) I'd be willing to try it, but otherwise I'd much prefer a cable. A GOOD cable at that.

Live, of course, is another ball game altogether, I prefer the wireless for obvious reasons.



Oh and on the subject of speaker connections, jacks (especially the cheap shit used as standard by most backline manufacturers) are fucking rubbish for speaker cable. If you have the opportunity to switch any of your gear over to XLR or better still NL4 (or it's cheaper NL2 alternative), do it. Yeah, it means serious surgery to some well-loved gear, and carrying jumpers around if anyone needs to use your cab at a gig, but I like peace of mind. Over the years jacks have given me nothing but grief; the only exception being the Neutrik locking jacks.

[Pimp-X]

For what it's worth..

I built in a pair of heavy duty ties between my CR and studio in previous joints, and in the one I'm currently working on, the same thing applies.

It's invaluable to have the guitarist, and the head, in the CR, while the assistant moves the mic, or mics around on the cabinet, while I listen in the CR, where I have to decide when the sound is translating just 'so'.

However, personally, I find in the Rock genre, guitarists respond better when they are immersed in the massive field of sound they generate.

In some cases, the interactivity between the cabinet screaming and the guitar body is favorable, and in some cases it's not. Usually in the case of highly microphonic pickups.

So, to summarise - valuable for obtaining initial tones. Less valuable so far as captured performance is concerned.

As a footnote, I find guitarists stay 'on the job' better when they're out in the studio.

And that's my experience on the matter. :)

[iCombs]

For what it's worth..

I built in a pair of heavy duty ties between my CR and studio in previous joints, and in the one I'm currently working on, the same thing applies.

It's invaluable to have the guitarist, and the head, in the CR, while the assistant moves the mic, or mics around on the cabinet, while I listen in the CR, where I have to decide when the sound is translating just 'so'.

However, personally, I find in the Rock genre, guitarists respond better when they are immersed in the massive field of sound they generate.

In some cases, the interactivity between the cabinet screaming and the guitar body is favorable, and in some cases it's not. Usually in the case of highly microphonic pickups.

So, to summarise - valuable for obtaining initial tones. Less valuable so far as captured performance is concerned.

As a footnote, I find guitarists stay 'on the job' better when they're out in the studio.

And that's my experience on the matter. :)

I'd like to interject for a moment and say that as a guitarist (and bassist, for that matter)...I tend to feel FAR more comfortable in the control room and tend to do much better work there. Being able to hear all my cues clearly without a 100 watt SLO kicking my ass into the wall is kinda nice, actually. Though I've spent so many years recording myself that I'm also more comfortable running my own transport...though I'm sure I'm the exception.

[otek]

I think for me, the main thing about having the guitarist in the control room is the communication aspect.


otek

[Slipperman]

Never heard a loss or problem with "proper" speaker runs under 30 meters.

Pretty damn easy thing to test definitively... just "hotswap" a robust 100ft. for a 3ft between the head and the cabinet.

Flip the standby if you must.

Oh shut up. The amp not gonna "blow up" if ya do it ONCE.






Then again... Thinking about it now... certain vintage Marshall's and Mesa's... it sometimes seems like "Once" is all it takes.


Anyhoo.

Player in live room or control room?

The USUAL "trade" is player-vibe/amp-gtr-mojo/ vs. communications/execution.

Case by case scenario.

One you may be changing "midstream" as certain twists and turns in the production path, including SONG REQUIREMENT may force you to embrace BOTH. IF ya DO change the player location... PLEASE, PLEASE do check the impact on the SOUND. As, dependent on a number of factors, it can be a much less than subtle difference.

Best regards,

SM.

[otek]

IF ya DO change the player location... PLEASE, PLEASE do check the impact on the SOUND. As, dependent on a number of factors, it can be a much less than subtle difference.


Holy shit yes.


otek

[Mixboy2105]

When we say speaker cable (from amp head to cab), do we mean :

1) Speaker cable - Star quad

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=63

or this? (as stated in the Canare website)

2) Guitar / Keyboard / Instrument Keyboard

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61

A specially designed Oxygen Free Copper 18 AWG cable for connecting Guitar/Bass or Keyboards to amps, mixers, effects pedals........blah blah ........especially on stage where amps are often set at maximum volume levels. Also highly recommended for Amp Head to Speaker Cabinet leads.

The last sentence confuses me. I know it's OK for short leads, but we are talking about 15-20ft runs from C-R to studio.

Hope someone can clear the air? Much appreciated.

P.S. Just found this other thread http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=3052&highlight=speaker+cable

[M.Brane]

You can actually melt an insrument cable with a high powered amp if you use it as a speaker cable. Always use speaker cables for speaker connections.

[John Eppstein]

I wouldn't ever use a cable as light as 18 Ga. for a speaker cable. I generally use #16 for light duty, #14 or #12 for heavy power or longer runs.

I see no advantage to using a star quad cable for speaker cable.

[Brendo]

I was wondering about that little blurb about GS6. I'm sure it'd do in a pinch.

I'm using a George L's, since it makes my setup a teensy bit brighter than the crappy one I had. Believe it's 16 but not sure.

[Pimp-X]

Fok, what's with all the thread necro going on lately?!

[MacGregor]

Fok, what's with all the thread necro going on lately?!

Maybe peoplez finally found the Search (http://thewombforums.com/search.php) function?

Sometimes shit like this happens, and the evolution makes a huge step forwards.

Mac
.

[otek]

http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/modernmaterialist/2009/03/2001%20ape%20monolith.jpg

[weedywet]

...

[otek]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Moritz Rock]

Could it be worth getting one of this?

Anyone used it?

http://www.radialeng.com/re-sgi.htm

[daleandtheguitar]

...8836

Ahh, yes... Vox's over-reaching failure - the Industrial Beatle.