Broadcast Homies...

[Jason Phair]

I'd like some input from y'all. We've got an upcoming venue "installation" type dealio that needs a desk dedicated to two things: a live mix for radio/internet broadcast, and recording to Alsihad. The boss-man is thinking Digi's Venue, because of the Alsihadability, but we're still debating. I'm thinking it could be done on a DM2k, but am not sure of the ease of use in mixing up to 96 inputs on one of those. Anybody got pros, cons, or other suggestions?

Thanksy.


Edit to add: price isn't necessarily an object here. We're willing to spend the extra to do it right, or cut back unnecessary shit.

[pounce]

well, the dm2k is a great interface for DAW's and you can easily really get all of those outputs and inputs to and from it. the compressors and eq's are fine, typical of what you've seen on the other yamaha digital consoles. it's clock, converters, and such are excellent.

the only twist is 24 faders at a time in four banks, plus another bank for the busses and auxes. knowing you like the other digital boards, you may well want to take a serious look at the dm2k.

i really am using all 96 inputs at home, but remember you'll need some additional ad converters to make that happen. i use a number of adat cables between the dm2k and the converters and it works perfectly. i've never had any glitches with it and i've been happy with it's performance and sound.

[Jason Phair]

Thanks for the input, oh pouncing one. I myself won't be using it. Since this is going to be a 6 day a week show, once you throw in rehearsals and all that, I probably won't even be on the crew, but if I were I'd most likely be at Mons, which will be a PM1D.

So you think live mixing that many inputs would be doable on the DM2k?

[pounce]

both click and i own dm2k's, so i'd welcome his input.

one thing you can factor in better than i can is how would banks of 24 faders work for the live mix. in my studio space they are logically grouped, so it's a breeze to mix on.

with respect to inputs to the board, can you group things logically? does a single thing run over 24 inputs? or can one bank be on air talent, one be a band, etc. etc. flipping between banks is the -only- consideration for me with regards to this as a live mixer. scenes all of the recall and automation can be a good thing with a show if some aspects of the mix are repeated from show to show.

[Tim Halligan]

The thing with the Alsi board, and to a certain extent the DM2k, is operators.

You are talking about a broadcast mix, and the talent pool available for operating in this environment is smaller. If you need to call in outside mixers to do the job due to sickness or some other reason, you need a board where operator familiarity is almost guaranteed.

I'd consider an AMS-Neve Libra Live, and to a lesser degree, a Calrec Alpha.

There is a large-ish core of broadcast users in place, which means finding operators will be simple-ish.

Cheers,
Tim

[Jason Phair]

Yeah, I posted this specifically thinking of click's input, not that everyone else hasn't been helpfull!

After a bit more research, I actually like the Digi desk option a bit better - no need for a bunch of I/O racks, since it's all done in the desk. In fact, I'm hoping to maybe do all three desks Digi? That would certainly solve compatibility issues and the need for copper iso-splits. My concern there is the viability of the D-show as a monitor desk - only 16 auxes, and I'm not sure that'll cut it for varsity, A-national acts.


Tim, you bring up a very good point with the useability. This will be a union venue, and I'm thinking it should be no problem to train more than just the one guy on the desk, which should keep that from being a problem.

Keep it coming guys!

[Johnny Gash]

One thing to consider is mic pres. I may be wrong but I think the DM2K only has what is onboard (can't remember if it's 24 or 48) and the add on cards can only be line level.

[clicktrack]

Sorry I've been late to this thread...I've actually been installing more I/O in my DM2K in the truck, so this is very timely!!! To make up for it, this will probably be a long post to give you some of my thought process in picking the DM2K, how I operate with it and how I get around some of the "gotchas". I figure with more information you can take it all and use it as you need as opposed to giving you less in multiple posts and varying questions.

There are a lot of reasons why I eventually chose this board over others but here are a few:

1) I designed the truck with the idea that I may not be the only one doing a mix out of it. We invite clients to bring their own mix engineer if its either a) a comfort factor or b) their guy knows the show inside out already. Keeping those in mind, I needed a console that is familiar to a lot of people. The DM2K has been out and in use in industry long enough that *a lot* of mix engineers know it and can get around on it fairly quickly.

This definitely may need to be a factor in your decision making, even if its not the DM2k, make sure you get something that each and every engineer doesn't need a full day lesson on.

2) If an engineer HASN'T used the DM2K before, its very basic to get them operating on. Sure, I/O patching can get ya a little screwed if you're not used to the Yamaha way, but in my thinking, someone new shouldn't have to patch. If we have an incoming engineer, I'll set up the patch where they want things and let them mix. In essence, I become the assistant. But the fact that with one key press to select the channel, you have access directly on the desk's surface to ALL channel parameters (comps, gates, eq's, delays). So everything critical to live operation is one key press away. I personally use the touch sense, so I don't even have to select the channel, I just put a finger on the fader and its set up.

The reason why I mention that is that knowing that they don't need to spend a lot of time staring at the screen to get access to the critical things makes it REALLY fast and easy to get someone going on the console very quickly. We've had a few people mix in our truck who weren't "proficient" at the DM2K and they were very comfortable after about five minutes of playing.

Tim has a very valid point, though...there are a lot of broadcast guys out there who are MORE versed on Calrecs or AMS, but the DM2K isn't too far behind. I can think of a few other trucks that are in use heavily in the states and canada that use DM2Ks as the broadcast board and they, like us, use a host of engineers to mix on a "as needed" basis. (Take a look at Guillaume Bengle's studiomobile (http://www.studiomobile.com/), Guy Charbonneau's Le Mobile (http://www.lemobile.com/) or Dave Hewitt's new part of his Remote Recording Fleet (http://www.remoterecording.com/), the Polar Bear Express. )

3) Fader banks. This CAN be annoying. Especially since you (similar to us) have to share a patch with monitor land, and FOH land, you'll find that invariably, horn 1 and horn 2 are split on channels 24 and 25. It just seems to happen that way. You CAN repatch things internally, but I don't do that, simply because if Fit-hits-the-proverbial-Shan and there is a problem in the middle of the show, I can just call the channel to the stage guy as opposed to having to "remap" in my mind.

What I do is I end up keeping the right hand close to the master section that hovers over the bank select keys. The right had also takes care of any adjustments on the dynamics section. The left hand stays close to the actual faders. You'd be amazed at how quickly I can jump between fader banks now to adjust things on alternate levels. Yes, it is annoying, but I'll make this tradeoff in favour of other things that I like on the board.

4) Channel count
Because of the way I mix, mixing a higher group of channels becomes fairly simple. You can literally break it down into the smaller groups of 24 depending on your patch.

We've only had a small number of jobs that actually required more than 40 inputs, so I tend to assign channel inputs to the first 2 banks and then set up some default effects on the last bank.

As soon as we decide the input patch between us, FOH and monitorland, I then set up a few basics right away. All my auxes that feed effects are dialed in. For example, I have a basic room reverb for voxes and I'll set those sends up based on the input list. I also send the main vocal to a aux feeding a delay. All this is done in advance so that when I hear something that needs a bit of delay, I'm within two steps of having that in the mix: a) changing fader bank to the effect return layer and then b) bringing the effect more into the mix as I see fit. Because both hands are already "in position", its a fairly quick method to get there.


Now part of your question was I/O for the 96 channels. Others are correct...the DM2K only has 24 on board pres. We use those sometimes, but we also use external pres. The externals go through either the recorders or are adat I/O direct to the console, so thats how we handle it. But you definitely need to figure out how to get it there.

The Venue may be a benefit from the perspective of the alshiad-ability, but don't let that be your deciding factor. At the end of the day, you have to get the tracks into alsihad, and, although the interface is a factor, it shouldn't override the operator's usability.

So, to tie up this long-winded answer: here are some things to consider:

-Make sure the board you choose has some factors that are more suited for live work than just studio work. That makes a big difference to the operator and his/her ability to make fast decisions in an already stressful environment. The problem with doing live-to-air shows is that people listening after the fact can critique your work without knowing the stresses that were out of your control at the time of. As a result, you want something suited for the live environment that the operator can get around quickly...thereby minimizing their in-show stress :)

-Make sure that its a board that, as Tim and I have mentioned, many people can get around easily. Pick one that has a user interface that is relatively simple for someone with a reasonable audio background could navigate.


Kinda long winded, but hope it helps :)

Cheers
Click

[pounce]

i've never mixed on a calrec, i'm not a broadcast guy. i just read some of the calrec info and reviews and folks sure seem to love them. wonderfully purpose built for broadcast, and would suit this application perfectly. i'd have to sit behind one to make any kind of recommendation, but i could easily imagine calrec being the top choice for this application.

[Tim Halligan]

Pounce,
AFAIK, there are more AMS-Neve Libra Live consoles seeing daily combat than Calrec Alpha's...both in terms of installed and OB applications.

FWIW, in my little backwater, I've seen plenty of Libra's...but only ever seen ANALOGUE Calrec's...Q series... I believe there is a couple of Calrec digital boards in Oz...but they've never travelled this far west...

By all means, investigate the Calrec - but in terms of operator familiarity, look at the Libra also...

Cheers,
Tim