Mounting a mic inside an acoustic guitar?

[Tommy Fobia]

Call me crazy but I hate the majority of acoustic guitar pickups.

I was wondering if there is some kind of clamp designed specifically to hold an SDC in place? Preferably it would be adjustable backwards and forward and be mounted on the inside of the back of the guitar - not on the inside of the top!

Any ideas? :)

[Tim Armstrong]

Kinda. There are a number of mics designed to go inside acoustic guitars, like this Highlander:

http://highlanderpickups.com/catalog/hmic.htm

http://www.pickupsandpreamps.com/images/large/highlander_ip-2_mic_lrg.jpg

Cheers, Tim

[Tommy Fobia]

Cheers Tim, it looks pretty cool - I'll have to look into it!

Now if only I could find a use for this damn Oktava mk012...
:grin:

[G. Hoffman]

The big problem with internal microphones is that I've never much liked the sound of my guitar when my head was sticking through the soundhole. Which is to say, they don't sound like a guitar. They get a really unpleasant tubby midrange thing going. Very bad.

The first thing you need to come to terms with is the fact that a pickup will never sound like your guitar. End of story. Once you come to terms with that, then you can move on to the real issues. It's all about choosing the set of compromises that best suit your situation. If you are playing in a loud rock band setting, the tone needs to be shaped to fit in the mix anyway, and volume before feedback and isolation is far more important than if you are playing small solo gigs in a coffee shop, where tone is going to be an overriding factor.

most internal mics are used with some other pickup. The main thing you get out of the microphone is NOT tone, but complexity. You can get added complexity from any additional sound source. My favorite way to improve a piezo is a magnetic pickup, as their sound is very complimentary. We just recently put in a K&K Mini Western and a Sunrise for a customer, and running it through a Sunrise buffer box it sounded fantastic. It also had very good feedback rejection. But it also cost him about $700.

So the real trick is to ask yourself what you are using the pickup for, and then decide which set of compromises makes the most sense for you.


Gabriel

[Tim Armstrong]

I absolutely agree with Gabe that a piezo combined with a magnetic pickup can sound extremely good.

Cheers, Tim

[Tommy Fobia]

Noted and taken into consideration - thanks for the advice guys!
:)

[Al Who]

I've been using a Sunrise pickup with a Demeter Tube Direct (using the XLR out and with the gain boost on). It's an expensive rig but it sounds better than most other acoustic pickup systems I've tried.

FWIW Fishman now offers an Aura Acoustic Imaging pedal that converts an onboard pickup signal to sounding like a guitar played through a microphone. I haven't tried it yet. If it works as advertised, it may be a way of getting better sound without the feedback problems you get with a real mic.

[G. Hoffman]

FWIW Fishman now offers an Aura Acoustic Imaging pedal that converts an onboard pickup signal to sounding like a guitar played through a microphone. I haven't tried it yet. If it works as advertised, it may be a way of getting better sound without the feedback problems you get with a real mic.


I haven't tried one since they sent me one of the first ones, but it sounded best in bypass.


Gabriel

[Al Who]

I've heard mixed reports. Some folks seem to like the Fishman Aura and others don't. I'm curious to try it, but not avidly curious.

For that matter I've heard the Sunrise pickup sound stellar in some guitars and lackluster in others. Obviously the guitar has a lot to do with how good a pickup sounds.

A lot of times when a pickup seems unsatisfactory, it may turn out to be the guitar. If you put a pickup in a cheap guitar it will probably not sound too great. Put it in a sweet vintage Martin and the same pickup will sound wonderful. This is even true of solid body electric guitars... but not to the same degree.

I love the sound of a great acoustic guitar played into a good mic. However it works better on a concert stage than it does in a rowdy tavern. You need the right tool for the job at hand. Every method of acoustic guitar amplification involves compromises.

[Sausage Maker]

These sound AMAZING!!

they a little microphonic for some playing styles but WOW what a sound!

http://www.tranceaudio.com/amulet.html

[Mo Facta]

Here's a solution if you want a mic'ed up sound without getting an internally mounted mic. It's the sE GM10. It clamps on to the end of the body of the guitar and eliminates the annoying things about recording or performing with an acoustic guitar.

I thought it sounded cool for the cash. Check it out.

http://www.musiciansnews.com/i/5/89291178199824.jpg

Cheers.

[otek]

the sE GM10.

From a sonic standpoint this would be optimal, but whether or not it's practical is highly dependent on the stage/monitoring environment and the propensity for feedback problems.

Also, I would like to see Pete Townshend do windmills with that thing strapped to his axe. :lol:


otek

[G. Hoffman]

Here's a solution if you want a mic'ed up sound without getting an internally mounted mic. It's the sE GM10. It clamps on to the end of the body of the guitar and eliminates the annoying things about recording or performing with an acoustic guitar.

I thought it sounded cool for the cash. Check it out.

http://www.musiciansnews.com/i/5/89291178199824.jpg

Cheers.

Yeah, but why would you bother with that guitar?


And it would be a feedback nightmare, along with picking up a lot more drums than guitar.


Gabriel

[Knastratt]

And moreover - it got crappy review for the sound quality. Not for the feedback/low freq noise pick-up, though.

[otek]

And moreover - it got crappy review for the sound quality.


I should point out that my earlier comment was about the principle of putting a quality condenser directly on the guitar. I have zero experience with the SE GM-10.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, it would allow the user the same sound quality as, say, an SDC on a regular stand, but its relative position would not change if the performer was moving. In a quieter acoustic setting, this might be just the thing.

As Gabriel pointed out, it would probably be problematic on a rock stage, for a variety of reasons.


otek

[Al Who]

I bought an SE G10 and tried it.

The mic was cutting in and out when I adjusted the position of the capsule. The clamp didn't hold firmly unless it was tightened more than I would like. The sound was disappointing--not as good as a Røde SDC. Also, the mounting hardware is stainless steel and it's too heavy. It shifts the balance of the guitar.

I sent the G10 back for a refund and went back to using my Sunrise pickup.

If you want to play into a mic, put it on a mic stand. Part of the art of performing into a mic is working the mic with the guitar the same way a vocalist does. If you've ever seen Gillian Welch and David Rawlings do a show with only SM57s for their Gibson guitars you'll understand that it can work beautifully with the right guitar... if the performer is an expert at working a mic with an acoustic guitar.

Of course YMMV.

[gilligan204]

Ever hear the story from "behind the glass" book about the one artist who moved around a lot while recording. Apparently they used a contact mic taped to a popsicle stick, which was then taped to the guitar !

[otek]

The SE G10 does look rather ungainly and awkward, hence my Pete Townshend comment. :lol:

Surely there must be a more elegant solution to accomplish the same thing?


otek

[Knastratt]

I should point out that my earlier comment was about the principle of putting a quality condenser directly on the guitar. I have zero experience with the SE GM-10.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, it would allow the user the same sound quality as, say, an SDC on a regular stand, but its relative position would not change if the performer was moving. In a quieter acoustic setting, this might be just the thing.

As Gabriel pointed out, it would probably be problematic on a rock stage, for a variety of reasons.


otek


Oh, the problem with the review in Studio wasn't about the principle - it was the fact that the mic itself kinda sucked on guitar.

Haven't heard it - GS moment. :Roll eyes:

[Al Who]

If you want to get a feel for what it would be like to play a guitar with the GS10, clamp a Luxo lamp to the lower bout of your guitar. If they had made the contraption out of aluminum it might have felt better. As it is, it's heavy and awkward.

The sound from the GS10 is like a cheap Chinese condenser. You would do far better to mount an SM81 on a mic stand and play into it. If you have a guitar that projects well and you play loud, it can work playing into a mic. If you fingerpick and play softly, you're pretty much stuck with either a magnetic or piezoelectric pickup of some kind.

You might also try one of the Audio Technica LDC mics. That's a popular way for bluegrass bands to play live. They use one AT mic for the whole group and each player step ups to the mic for solos.

The story in 'Behind the Glass' was about James Taylor. They taped a small AT lavalier mic to his guitar. At one point the mic cut out because he accidently kicked the power supply. They filled the gap with the feed from his in-guitar pickup. I have the album and the guitar sound is fine.

A less expensive alternative to the Sunrise pickup is the DiMarzio Acoustic Reference (http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/DimarzioDP139.html) pickup Model DP139. Sounds sweet through a Tube Direct (http://www.demeteramps.com/products/directboxes/vtdb2b.html). At $599 the Tube Direct isn't cheap but I've had mine for 20 years and it's never let me down. I was the opening act at a Bonnie Raitt concert and discovered that she was also using the Demeter Tube Direct as a guitar preamp. I don't work for Demeter or sell gear. I'm a guitar player and I've used the Tube Direct for 20 years with all kinds of guitar pickups including Lloyd Baggs, Fishman, DiMarzio, and Sunrise pickups. Anything you plug into it comes out sounding better.

I had high hopes for the GS10 but it was disappointing to me both ergonomically and sonically.

'Fingerpick Magazine' (http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm) has a lot of info about acoustic guitar pickups posted on their website. It's where I discovered the DiMarzio. It's really a nice sounding pickup. I really like the way you can pop it in for a gig and then take it out afterward and enjoy the pristine acoustic sound of your guitar. Two of my friends have bought them after trying mine.

[Tim Armstrong]

My thinking on the GS10 is that it would have to almost make the guitar sound BETTER than in real life to justify being so ungainly and distracting. I mean, we're talking live performance here, who wants their guitar to look like a construction site?

The fact that folks have found it less than sonically superior is just the icing on the cake!

I ran sound for a Celtic folk band in Colorado for a couple of years, and their guitarist had one of the Highlander mics that I linked to above, along with a Highlander undersaddle piezo pickup, and the combination (mounted in his very nice Martin dreadnaught) sounded very nice and quite natural.

FWIW...

Cheers, Tim

[Al Who]

An alternative to the SE mic would be the DPA 4099-Guitar. It looks better and likely sounds much better. It's a recently released product and there isn't a lot of info about it on the internet. If you go to the DPA website you can find some info by searching within the website.

http://www.newmexicophoto.com/misc/DM04719.jpg

I'm gonna have to get my hands on one somehow and try it out. DPA seem to get respect around here. This mic might do the job as advertised.

[otek]

An alternative to the SE mic would be the DPA 4099-Guitar.

That's more what I was talking about before.

And if it sounds even half as good as any DPA I've tried.....


otek

[Al Who]

Thanks Otek. That's encouraging.

I'll follow up here after I get one to evaluate. It may be a couple of weeks.

If someone here at The Womb tries one before I do please post your comments.

[Tim Armstrong]

I'm impressed that they actually have it mounted to point at the body/neck joint, rather than at the soundhole. It's like, gasp, they GET it!

Definitely interested in reading a review.

Tim

[Al Who]

Well, I contacted the DPA office here in the U.S. and was disappointed in the attitude of their customer support.

Perhaps I caught them on a bad day. Maybe someone else here will have better luck.

[otek]

Well, I contacted the DPA office here in the U.S. and was disappointed in the attitude of their customer support.

That's weird. The Scandinavian support are some of the nicest and most helpful people I've talked to. :Confused:


otek

[Al Who]

My family lived in Europe when I was small. I agree with you about Scandinavians in general. I have great memories of our time in Denmark and Holland.

The American distributor for DPA seems very... dare I say... American. In other words, a bit arrogant and self-important... especially considering that he has, in this case, a new product that hasn't yet proved itself.

Miniature instrument mics are nothing new. I've yet to try one that is satisfactory. In general it's better to use a pickup and/or a mic on a stand.

The 4099-Guitar sells for $599. That's not cheap. I know quite a few professional musicians and none of them have used or heard this product. That makes it questionable. While the Denmark based company is likely a wonderful group of folks, their US distributor seems to have his own agenda.

As I said earlier, I may have caught the guy on a bad day yesterday. FWIW he seems to be having a bad day today as well. I'm rapidly losing interest. I have a Sunrise pickup and a Demeter Tube Direct. This combination is an industry standard... used by Lyle Lovett, Emmylou Harris, Kelly Joe Phelps, Jackson Browne, Bonnie Raitt, etc. etc. It's never failed me. If someone has a new product that does the job better then I think it's on him to prove it. Saying it in an advertising brochure doesn't necessarily make it true.

[Al Who]

News update: DPA's US distributor has contacted me and expressed interest in someone trying and evaluating the new product. Apparently we are are both feeling a little better today and we are negotiating <sigh> :)

Everyone has a bad day now and then. It's not a deal breaker with me. Since others here are also interested I'll persevere.

To be continued...

[G. Hoffman]

The problem I see with the DPA product is pretty basic - it's a microphone. They are great in some limited situations, but any time you are dealing with a high stage volume situation they simply don't work. And all the things that you want in a microphone are exactly the things which make them not work in those situations.


Gabriel

[otek]

any time you are dealing with a high stage volume situation they simply don't work.

I don't think you'd avail yourself of all the qualities of a DPA condenser in a loud rock setting anyway - better just use one of the on-board/piezo alternatives.

For a quieter acoustic setting however, I think it would be stellar.


otek

[Tim Armstrong]

I don't think you'd avail yourself of all the qualities of a DPA condenser in a loud rock setting anyway - better just use one of the on-board/piezo alternatives.

For a quieter acoustic setting however, I think it would be stellar.


otek

+1

There are a lot of performance situations where onstage volume isn't an issue!

Cheers, Tim

[Al Who]

The problem I see with the DPA product is pretty basic - it's a microphone. They are great in some limited situations, but any time you are dealing with a high stage volume situation they simply don't work.


Gabriel

That's always been my experience with miniature mics. The 4099 mic is built like a shotgun mic--the kind of mic they use for sound on location in movies. They are very good at rejecting unwanted sound. I'm not aware of any other instrument mics which incorporate shotgun mic technology. A tiny shotgun mic just might do the job.

DPA has promised me a chance to evaluate the 4099-Guitar in January. They are backordered and the US office is closed until after the first of the year. So it will be a little while before there is a sample available.

I plan to test it for feedback in comparison with a Sunrise pickup which is very feedback resistant. Will also compare it with a condenser mic on a stand. I have an SPL meter so I should be able measure relative levels of gain before feedback.

I would guess that for a solo singer/songwriter the mic will provide sufficient gain before feedback. If it does that and sounds good too then it may also be useful for recording singer/songwriter style. It should do a pretty good job of recording the guitar without pickup much of the vocals.

The mic has only been available since October so there aren't many in use so far. DPA claims it is in use successfully on stage with large bands. It's not clear from the info they sent me whether that is with IEM or floor wedges. I'd expect that with IEM's would be no problem. If it works with floor monitors then that's quite an accomplishment.

DPA is offering a pre-purchase rental here in the U.S. The $30 per week rental fee can be applied if you decide to purchase the mic directly from DPA. They seem confident that the mic will perform as advertised. I don't know if they are offering a similar deal overseas.

If things go as planned, I should have more to say sometime in January.

[G. Hoffman]

I don't think you'd avail yourself of all the qualities of a DPA condenser in a loud rock setting anyway - better just use one of the on-board/piezo alternatives.

For a quieter acoustic setting however, I think it would be stellar.


otek


Quite, but do you know where most of the pickups I sell go? Church musicians. So, think about this combination. A large group of players who only really play much on the weekends, are being mixed by the 17 year old volunteer who - like - kind of knows how the EQ works and may have heard of signal flow, in a venue which was designed to look grand and sound big, through a system installed by the lowest bidder. One of these days not too far in the future, the internet is going to be abuzz with this thing, and people who don't understand the situational limitations of microphones are going to be deciding they are obviously the best option going.

Don't get me wrong, in the right place and in the right hands they will probably be great (good engineer, low stage volume, IEM, plexi around the drummer, etc.). I've used enough DPA mics to know how good they are, and my favorite acoustic guitars sounds I've recorded have always been through a 4011 (I wish I had one, let me tell you). But for most of my customers they seem like a Really Bad Idea, and I'm the guy who is going to have to explain why their $700 investment isn't working out for them. It's not that I think they are bad, but my job just got a little bit harder.


Gabriel

[G. Hoffman]

DPA is offering a pre-purchase rental here in the U.S. The $30 per week rental fee can be applied if you decide to purchase the mic directly from DPA. They seem confident that the mic will perform as advertised. I don't know if they are offering a similar deal overseas.


Damn good deal.


Gabriel

[Mixboy2105]

Here's a solution if you want a mic'ed up sound without getting an internally mounted mic. It's the sE GM10. It clamps on to the end of the body of the guitar and eliminates the annoying things about recording or performing with an acoustic guitar.

I thought it sounded cool for the cash. Check it out.

http://www.musiciansnews.com/i/5/89291178199824.jpg

Cheers.

I'd have to agree with a lot of the comments and reviews about the sound quality of the GM10. The local SE distributor regularly sends me mics to try out. I recently was given a unit and did some test recordings with a singer-guitarist. Firstly, it was rather ungainly to setup, there are three bolt/clamps to adjust and the balance of the guitar does shift due to the weight of the contraption.

Secondly, and the clincher, the sound quality ... mediocre. I swapped for my usual Audio Technica AT3031s and what a world of difference it made.

I haven't spoken to my distributor but I'll have to give him my honest, no-BS opinion about it.

[Al Who]

Thanks for the reality check. I agree with you.

I'm still looking forward to auditioning the DPA 4099 as soon as I can get my hands on one. That will probably be later this month.