How do you all check your phasing

[lebouche]

is it just by ear or do you check mics eg. snare with each overhead with some sort of graph thingy.
Also do peeps check the relationship between all the mics?
Thanks

[otek]

I check mine by ear.

I always set out using one specific mic as my reference (say, the left overhead), pan it over to one side so I am listening to one speaker, and then bring up the other mics one by one with it. Then, I flip the polarity switch on each one, and listen for the best tone.

[malice]

I check mine by ear.




I hear phase issues pretty well.

That said, if you're unsure, you can flip your monitoring to mono and check if some of the instruments are disapearing, or if your balance is changing dramatically.

It is always best to check mono out of one of the speakers, not both.

malice

[lebouche]

I'm sorry I'm asking you guys such boring and elementary questions..
Recorded in a stairwell tonight...quite cool.
Didnt care bout mistakes just had fun.
First time in ages:)
Cheers,

[slabrock]

I hear phase issues pretty well.

That said, if you're unsure, you can flip your monitoring to mono and check if some of the instruments are disapearing, or if your balance is changing dramatically.

It is always best to check mono out of one of the speakers, not both.

Absolutely! Besides checking things in mono is for me a very important part of the mix because ...don't laugh... i fine-tune my panning in mono. No, it wasn't my own idea, i read it in this one of Bobby Owsinski's books (http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Mix-Audio/dp/0872887235) and it works.

Then again, i've always had a goniometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goniometer_(audio)), in the past i built one myself by soldering a sum/differ-circuit in an oscilloscope, now i use the one that comes with RME hardware. It takes much less space and weights much less
:D :lol: :D

I often try different phasings as an effect. I usually end up not doing them artificially at all, but sometimes it's great to have a guitar chord build up in far left and travel right front turning inside out on the way.:Roll eyes: :Roll eyes:

Remember, that phases are part of our everyday hearing. Whenever a sound travels in several routes, be it room reflection or a delay line, there's always a phase issue. It defines how we hear the things we hear.

Peace,

Slabrock

[malice]

I'm sorry I'm asking you guys such boring and elementary questions..

There is no such things as boring questions.

Only boring answers ...

Never be shy to ask, we're here for that.

malice

[juergen]

I generally just play around with polarity switches, fading things in and out before tracking to make sure it's sounding ok.

For a while I used to rely a little more on a plugin to show me phase issues (can't remember the name now, but it comes with Logic), but then i slowly went into the "just listening" camp.

I figured my ears deserve more attention during this process than looking at a screen. And it's definitely very rewarding because over time you start hearing all kinds of phasing issues.

[eagan]

Way back in yon olden days of yore when I was going through my electronics program in high school, I thought it was fascinating stuff to be sitting and looking at a scope fed with a couple of function generators watching Lissajous patterns.

Visually entertaining, for sure, and it forces your mind into figuring out what's going on with combined waveforms with varied waveshape, frequency, phase relationships.

When it comes to complex real world audio, that only goes so far.

Listen, and it sounds good or it doesn't. Any time you start combining multiple things that have something in common, but also have differences (like the most obvious example, recording a drumset through multiple microphones). When you're digging into this stuff, it's always going to be complex, and there will never be anything "perfect". There will never be anything as dead simple as stuff being either "in phase" or "out of phase". Punching polarity switches on mixer channels will only give you "it sounds better" or "it sounds worse". You can only try stuff, listen and judge.

Listen to what Otek tells you, in particular, just because I think he's the best around here at explaining what to do and why when it comes to this stuff without getting too complicated about it.

If you're recording stuff in a room, especially multiple sources happening at the same time in the same area (drumset!), the only way to not have any kind of "phase issues" is simple: one mic. More than that, ask the Swede.

Slabrock raises a really major point about this stuff. You're always going to have "phase issues" that will end up causing some complex comb filtering phenomena, but part of the trick is to understand that you'll have this and make it work for you.

It helps (actually, it's essential) to have some fundamental understanding of the basics of relationships between time, frequency, wavelength, distance, and phase angle. If not, it's time to study a bit. Otherwise you're groping in the dark. Actually, you'll still be groping in the dark, but at least you'll be able to guess what's happening in the dark.


JLE

[lebouche]

Cool....its seems very complex.
I've been messing around with the logic plugin phasetone but feel a little lost.
Think I might use a graph for guidence as well.
I have a basic understanding of the time, frequency stuff...how different frequencys are different wavelenghs etc.

Thanks I've got a lot to try out now.:)

[lebouche]

I check mine by ear.

I always set out using one specific mic as my reference (say, the left overhead), pan it over to one side so I am listening to one speaker, and then bring up the other mics one by one with it. Then, I flip the polarity switch on each one, and listen for the best tone.

Do you listen to evreything through one side or do you bring up the others just wherever they are going to stay in the mix.

Cheers

[otek]

Do you listen to evreything through one side or do you bring up the others just wherever they are going to stay in the mix.

Listening for polarity and phase, I keep it all to one side. The idea is that listening in mono makes phase issues much more obvious, and one-speaker mono is the most effective because all the sound emanates from a very small surface.

[lebouche]

Fantastic! My skills grow stronger:D
Thankyall

[juergen]

Just realized I left out the part about moving microphones, and fine tuning that until I'm happy with the phase relationship between the mics.

Based on what I wrote, it seems like i just put up mics, and then just click the ø, picking what sounds best at either in or out.

FWIW.

[paulcezanne]

Hi all,
I would like to kick this a little further: I am using a lot of sampled instruments with my EXS24 and I would like to know if I am the only one who struggles with phasing probs with samples. I am using a lot of classical acoustic instruments (strings, piano, winds ...) to create a classical orchestra. Often I see, when I am using sampled instruments, some phasing problems in my PAZ TDM (=Analyzer for TDM). I cannot hear any problems, but I am afraid that I am doing something wrong, because the PAZ shows me Am I alone with phasing probs using sampled instruments?

Best, paulcezanne.:Confused:

[John Suitcase]

I think it's important to clarify some terms.

Polarity is the relative voltage, in equipment like cables, microphones, etc. You should check the polarity of all of your gear, to make sure it's consistent.

Check your cables to make sure they are wired correctly, occasionally you might come across XLRs that have been wired to flip polarity, to work with some particular piece of gear.

Check your mics, by recording something with an impulse, like stick clicks. Look at the waveform and make sure it goes positive first, then negative. This is particularly important on kick mics.

Check you gear the same way. Insert a compressor (for instance) and record the stick click again. Look at the waveform. There are a few pieces out there that will flip your polarity.

You get the idea.

Next, you want to check for comb-filtering. Generally, when we use the term "phase" we mean comb-filtering. This is caused by two very similar signals, one of which is delayed by some small amount of time, being combined into one signal, as happens when stereo signals are collapsed to mono. Also, though, comb-filtering happens when you have very short reflections, drum OHs close to a ceiling, for instance, or the floor with a guitar amp. Placing a mic in front of a guitar cabinet with mulitple speakers also will result in comb-filtering, which makes moving the mic important, to find the spot with the most pleasing comb-filtering.

These short reflections and small timing differences happen all over, and our ears generally don't perceive them as being out-of-phase or comb-filtered. Our brains use these delays to perceive location, ala the Haas Effect. It's only when they are combined (electronically, typically) that we begin to hear funny things.

I just wanted to interject that there are multiple phenomena that we lump together as "phase" issues, but they have different causes, and as a result, different solutions.