going over to the dark side

[paulie]

Hi everyone,

My studio is Mac based. For a long time I have been running OS9.2 on a top spec G4- when OSX came along, I was operating on the basis of "well if it's not broke don't fix it". It would have also cost me thousands just to replicate what I already had.

Basically with my current setup I am North Korea - the only difference is I haven't done anything to piss anyone off...you get the picture.

Recently i have being working in a studio with a well functioning powerful PC based system. I marvel at it's speed and how much I can ask of that system before it begins to wobble even compared to G5's I have also used.

I have been indoctrinated into the "Mac is where it's at" school for music production especially, but I have to admit, I'm having my faith tested especially when I learn that Macs are basically becoming hybrid PC's anyway.

I feel that it's time to make a decision and come in from the cold. If I go down the Mac route, I know that I can still use Logic and PT, however I'm confused - if Mac's are going to be compatible with PC's is it not imminent that soon Logic and PT will become available for or bootable on PC's.

The only reason I ask is that the PC option seems thousands cheaper in the long run and from what I hear the software is much better supported.

I'm not really looking for a PC v's Mac schoolyard type discussion more like asking if anyone had any similar experiences and how did you deal with it?

I'm still can't find the love for computers..

Cheers Paulie.

[Comte de St Germain]

This thread has been done a million times.

IMO a well built PC costs about the same as a comparable Mac.

So to end all discussion whatever your main app works best on is where you should be.

My main App is DP and it only works on a Mac. It's stable, snappy and does more than I need it to with an older G5.

So pick your app and then your platform.

[magicchord]

I think a lot depends on your personality:

If you're a person who likes to tinker around a little bit, then you can be very happy with a Windows box. There's more room for hardware customizing and updating with that platform, especially if you get a box built from scratch by a KNOWLEDGEABLE computer tech. Name brand (Dell, hp, etc.) boxes have less options for later updates.

Logic is Mac only, but PT is available for both. I've observed the WinPTHD setup here at work and it's just as stable as Mac versions IMHO.

Not a tinkerer? Prolly should stick with Mac.

[otek]

So pick your app and then your platform.

What the Comte said.

I don't believe there's really such a thing as a "superior platform". It's all tools. You make music on them, and if you find a setup which works creatively for you, you go with it.

Personally, I'm not a techhead. I don't like to fuck around too much. I wanna sit down and make music.

Right now, I have both a PC and a Mac. I use them for different tasks, different softwares.

[srvenable]

I'm a PC guy -- never owned a Mac -- I can count the number of hours I've logged on a Mac with one hand. But I have a buddy with a Mac Book Pro, and I was floored by how fast it is -- even when it's running Windows XP in a virtual machine (I think it was using Parallels or somesuch).

I'd suggest prior to switching to a WIntel machine, that you find someone using your app on an Intel Mac -- it may be even faster. And they're reasonably priced.

[Mixerpuppet]

Right now, I have both a PC and a Mac. I use them for different tasks, different softwares.

I've been there...

I find it's similar to determining which hand you use for what and how efficient are you. 2 hands are better than one...

Logic used to support PC and so it may happen that they return just as Digidesign has. Digi can afford to dual code where as small companies may not be able to. Samplitude is still PC only which is what Im currently using.

My choice was made upon a pro's and con's list and finally investing only in something I could buy or afford. Which changes annually. Alot of it depends on what your looking to do... Pro, SemiPro or hobbiest...

[PRobb]

Logic stopped PC support when they were bought by Apple.

[seagate]

Logic stopped PC support when they were bought by Apple.

And it's not coming back!!!

[andrew schaap]

hey paulie,

i'm about to buy another pc and build it myself. i've spent a lot of time researching it and decided on some components that will be ideal for an audio computer. if you want I can email you a list of all the components with links that I'll be getting for it and you can see what you think. they're incredibly easy to put together. i would, however, definitely stay away from getting a desktop computer from a manufacturer such as Dell, etc... Dell's motherboards more often than not run into problems with audio applications. If you decide to go PC, build it yourself with components that are known to be good for audio apps.

[PSN Big Al]

If you're going to go to a PC for your audio, I would also
suggest having a look at something like Sweetwater's
custom-built Creation Stations:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/category/c859

They'll even pre-install all the apps and deliver a turnkey
system built for audio performance. They also support you
with a remote desktop app where they can take control of
your machine and look it over for faster fixes.

[Shan]

... be compatible with PC's is it not imminent that soon Logic and PT will become available for or bootable on PC's.

The only reason I ask is that the PC option seems thousands cheaper in the long run and from what I hear the software is much better supported.


I have used both PC and Mac for many years. If you are going to use PC and PTLE then I highly recommend the Quadzilla Machine. (http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB32&Number=988224&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1)

I started that madness over a year ago.:very happy: It has been nothing but rock solid stable and that's the bottom line. I dont really care what OS is on the computer. I want what we all want. And that is to wake up, turn it on, and do my 12-14 hours of work without any attention on the computer using a stable system. The Quad does exactly that.

And you'll have more power than you'll probably need even on the smallest Quad. I can play every single track that Charles has on "Mix it like a Record" no problem at all, including all the stems, every track and every plug-in. I'm talkin' the entire song in PTLE :Thumbsup: , and I still have a good 25% CPU left over.

The smallest Quad alone with PTLE will give you DSP plug-in power of an HD4(I'm talkin' plug-in instances only of RTAS over TDM). We now have Quads that are pushing almost 200 Dverbs on our Dverb test. An Accel card does 38 just to put it in perspective.

And yes, HD works amazing with it. We have many guys with systems that we call "hybrids". This is basically an HD core card and a Quad. The core card handles the I/O, PDC, track count etc and the Quad is used for some major DSP plug-in power via RTAS. Plus you get a some extra software only features.

Native is very very powerful. The road has already been paved long ago. The next spec I am putting together will give the user the choice to start with a dual core, and expand all the way to an 8 core on the same system!

What about the price? Under $1500 for a kick ass Quad. :grin:

The PC for native DAWs have come along way.

And for the record, my choice of OS is Linux. It's on my laptop and on my office computer. The only thing that keeps me with XP is PT which has been nothing but rock solid on my Quad.

Shane

[JCD]

I know thisis an old thread but I built my pc for $400.00 and It kicks serious ass, I knew a guy that worked in computer parts so I got a deal but still..I could never have got the power I have for that low cost in a mac...NEVER:lol:

[Mo Facta]

The thing is, PC's for me aren't so much reliable as simple to fix and easy to implement third party software and hardware. They can be finicky but if your computer is dedicated to audio, i.e. you have a dedicated system drive, audio drive and backup drives, if something goes wrong, it's a cinche to reinstall and customize. Macs....not so much.

Not that I have anything against Macs, I'm just used to PCs and understand how they work. After all, all computers are so unbelievably powerful and efficient these days, does it really make a difference unless you use Logic?

Cheers :)

[Toonman]

Just to add some more ketchup to the hot dog... the whole thing about PCs being less stable than MACs is a complete myth, that I think comes from the fact that most PC users are quite careless with their computers (there's more software out there to try out for this platform, and there are also unfortunately more viruses written for it), and don't know much about how to manage their systems. If you want to use your computer strictly for music, I think you'll find it to be quite reliable.

Since both PCs and MACs can be configured sorta similarly, I would say that it will come to a matter of with which OS you feel more comfortable. I, personally, never liked the Mac OS very much. I felt more at home with a PC, and I'm capable of performing hardware and OS changes on them with ease. I do recommend you get a tech-saavy friend to help you with learning how Windows works/thinks, since it is quite different from the Mac OS in how you need to mantain it. Other than that, you'll find that both OS's are quite similar it tools and capabilities (although I've seen some really nice features in OSX that Windows lacks). Remember to keep your drivers updated if you feel there's something not working right. And your DAW should run in Windows the same way it does in your Mac. Vendors who develop for both platforms usually try to make the transition as seamless as possible (this is a fact for every software I've used that is available for both platforms).

Good luck!

[meLoCo_go]

Just to add some more ketchup to the hot dog... the whole thing about PCs being less stable than MACs is a complete myth, that I think comes from the fact that most PC users are quite careless with their computers (there's more software out there to try out for this platform, and there are also unfortunately more viruses written for it), and don't know much about how to manage their systems. If you want to use your computer strictly for music, I think you'll find it to be quite reliable.
That's very true. On my home PC I've got WinXP SP2 installed since the day I bought it - more than 2 years ago.
OTOH I've got a crazy friend (did too much speed in his time) who has to reinstall system approximately every month and that's when he straight:grin:.

[Sausage Maker]

http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/13/efix.pc.to.mac.usb.dongle/

[vocalnick]

I realise this is an old thread, but I'll throw in my $0.02 incase it's useful to anyone else.

My only general piece of advice would be to seek advice from people who CURRENTLY rely on Windows for real-world, time-critical, professional creative tasks.

You'll find no shortage of Mac users telling you that you're insane, you're in for a world of hurt, you're a traitor and you make Steve Jobs cry etc. etc. And I've found those people have either:

a) never actually seriously USED Windows, and are parrotting 3rd and 4th hand "information" which is usually of dubious accuracy before it runs the Chinese-whispers gauntlet

or

b) had a bad experience with Windows98 or ME, and are still comparing their current OSX version with their memory of the decade-old MS product, generally fuelled by those in category A.

That's just my personal observation, your kilometreage may vary. Just don't sweat the zealots on either side - Windows and OSX are both just tools of the trade, and you can get the job done just fine on either one.

[paulie]

.... And I've found those people have either:

a) never actually seriously USED Windows, and are parrotting 3rd and 4th hand "information" which is usually of dubious accuracy before it runs the Chinese-whispers gauntlet

or

b) had a bad experience with Windows98 or ME, and are still comparing their current OSX version with their memory of the decade-old MS product, generally fuelled by those in category A.

That's just my personal observation, your kilometreage may vary. Just don't sweat the zealots on either side - Windows and OSX are both just tools of the trade, and you can get the job done just fine on either one.

Hear, hear.

I bought a Carillon Audio PC. It's been great for me over the last 2 years. I'm still running XP SP2 with no problems at all.

So my experience is that PC's are fine as audio computers - just DON'T CONNECT THEM TO THE INTERNET. That goes for any audio rig, but especially PC's.

I use both PC and Macs everyday and wouldn't mind either now, to be honest.

[Toonman]

So my experience is that PC's are fine as audio computers - just DON'T CONNECT THEM TO THE INTERNET. That goes for any audio rig, but especially PC's.


I respectfully disagree. The reason is, the internet is just like any city... you can go downtown and buy some shoes, or you can go in the middle of the night to the ugliest sector. Your choice.

The internet by itself is harmless. Danger only comes from not knowing where you're going, or what to do there. My computer, which I use to produce music (and other things) is on-line 24/7, and I've NEVER had any problems coming from the internet. Wanna avoid problems in the web? These would be my guidelines...

1. Install a reliable firewall, an antivirus program, and anti-spyware (my personal choices for these are Zone Alarm, AVG, and Ad-Aware, respectively. They all have free editions).

2. Stop using Internet Explorer immediately. Install Firefox 3, and load it with NoScript and CookieSafe (they're extensions). Use Internet Explorer only for critical things on sites you know well (such as on-line banking... NoScript might give you a hard time with these).

3. DO NOT OPEN EMAILS FROM UNKNOWN SOURCES! It doesn't matter if the chick telling you she wants to meet you is uber-hot, or if that trip to Disney looks great... you open it, you pay it...

4. If you use any form of instant messaging on your computer, DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS THAT APPEAR ON AN ONLINE CONVERSATION, without first confirming with the source that they are actually sending you a link, and what it contains. I've seen many fall for this one... and pay for it.

5. Of course, DO NOT GO TO DARK ALLEYS IN THE INTERNET, unless you have protection (see points 1 and 2). And even then... exercise caution (you KNOW what I mean by DARK ALLEYS... the ones with red neon signs...)

6. Keep anti-virus updates current at all times.

I guess these are the main ones. As I've said, I've never had problems being on-line permanently. I can get drivers fast, buy software quickly, and check this forum anytime. The only problem is when I spend more time posting here than making music, I guess... :very happy:

The Internet is not evil... just misunderstood... :Coolio:

[paulie]

Fair enough. All excellent points, except..


5. Of course, DO NOT GO TO DARK ALLEYS IN THE INTERNET, unless you have protection (see points 1 and 2). And even then... exercise caution (you KNOW what I mean by DARK ALLEYS... the ones with red neon signs...)


Stay away from dark alleys? Popping out for some shoes?

Not for me. YMMV.

Gotta be THE main reason for having a dedicated internet computer!

How did you manage to find THIS place?:lol:

Kidding, kidding....

[Brendo]

My only general piece of advice would be to seek advice from people who CURRENTLY rely on Windows for real-world, time-critical, professional creative tasks.

You'll find no shortage of Mac users telling you that you're insane, you're in for a world of hurt, you're a traitor and you make Steve Jobs cry etc. etc. And I've found those people have either:

a) never actually seriously USED Windows, and are parrotting 3rd and 4th hand "information" which is usually of dubious accuracy before it runs the Chinese-whispers gauntlet

or

b) had a bad experience with Windows98 or ME, and are still comparing their current OSX version with their memory of the decade-old MS product, generally fuelled by those in category A.

That's just my personal observation, your kilometreage may vary. Just don't sweat the zealots on either side - Windows and OSX are both just tools of the trade, and you can get the job done just fine on either one.

Ok, how about this - I could run PTLE 6.9 flawlessly on Tiger with all my crap installed, but it barely even started on a fresh WinXP install with all Digidesign's suggested setting changes, on the same machine in Bootcamp... let alone trying to run the same sessions. I had to do this at one point to convert a whole bunch of sessions not saved with PC/Mac compatibility switched on and it was painful to say the least.

[meLoCo_go]

Bootcamp...
.

[Brendo]

Bootcamp is not virtualization, it's using the mac as a pure windows PC. Bootcamp was not the issue, not at all. I had all the correct drivers, etc, did all the digidesign recommended tweaks.

The point is, on the same machine PT:Win ran like a dog, and I gave it every chance to succeed.

[Bob Olhsson]

On a real PeeCee 6.9 was rock solid and actually ran circles around the Macs where I was teaching at the time.

My understanding is that Digidesign uses their own disk routines rather than system calls so it shouldn't be surprising that it might not work very well on an unsupported system. Unsupported means that they haven't tested the configuration or fixed any bugs.

[Brendo]

I don't see much point in taking this particular thread of conversation any further - I've put my experience out there, and if everyone's just going to pile on again and tell me I'm wrong, well, what's the point.

Original poster: Protools works fine and gives rainbow blowjobs on windows in all situations and you should never buy a macintosh computer because they kill your wife and children. :lol:

[Bob Olhsson]

I'll take it one step further and add that the second post is absolutely right. A comparable PeeCee to a Mac is not any cheaper.

[otek]

I'll take it one step further and add that the second post is absolutely right. A comparable PeeCee to a Mac is not any cheaper.

Precisely.


otek

[vocalnick]

I'd agree with that, with just one caveat - There's a big price and spec jump from the iMac to the Mac Pro, and I've seen a lot of people calling for a machine at this level - sort of a Mac-Pro-mini if you will. An easily expandable mid-tower with some PCI and PCIE ports and room for a few internal drives. Very easily built with PC components, but on the Mac, you're stuck with one or the other.

But I admit that's a fairly niche market point, so the choice ultimately comes down to either workflow preference or dogma.

[Bob Olhsson]

I went that route for my first PeeCee but frankly my big Dell workstation turned out to be well worth the extra money over the home-brew.

[vocalnick]

Yeah, that's probably where I'll go for my next upgrade too, I've had a good run with Dell laptops in the past. I guess the expanded version of my point is that even with the pre-fab workstations you have a wider range of configurations available on the PC side so you only need pay for the spec that you need.

I guess the obvious flip-side to that is you theoretically run the risk of more compatibility problems as your configuration choices increase. Particularly with DAWs that are more finicky about the hardware you run them on (Pro Tools being the obvious example!)

[Brendo]

Dell? *shudder* I'm sorry, but I'm not a fan.

[Bob Olhsson]

From what I've seen Dell's consumer computers often deserve their reputation.

The workstations that Dell sells to scientists and engineers are a completely different story in terms of configuration and support.

[Toonman]

The workstations that Dell sells to scientists and engineers are a completely different story in terms of configuration and support.

Completely agree. I have been a Dell customer for more than 8 years, and have NEVER had any problems... quite the opposite. I've never bought their "home PCs" for my work (we did buy one for my mother in law, and it has turned quite alright for what she does). If you buy from them, its their Precision workstations what you want. Rock-solid, reliable, and their customer service is very good. This is, of course, just my experience with them.

Last year I decided to jump the fence, and I assembled my own system for the first time. I was hellbent on world domination, but on a limited budget. I got a dual-Xeon quad-core (8 cores in total) PC for 1K less that what Dell had on their website... big savings, big performance. But I definitely don't recommend putting a system together for those with no experience in it... a wrong choice of RAM modules, and you're down for a ride in the "Crash Train From Hell"... you'll puke and yell a lot... I've seen it, and it ain't pretty...

Anyway... nice memories... :)

[Mick Stuart]

Most of it comes down to the quality of components installed in the PC.

I have been through many Dells at work (no work stations though, cost prohibitive for office duties). They run for a few years then the motherboard or hard drive goes out. I have had no less than 4 Dell PC’s die on me, most while working with customers waiting.

I will stick to building my own as the difference in checking what goes in my basket at Newegg is not much different that ordering at Dell. Plus I get to add the latest and greatest rather than select from a list Dell gave me, certified compatible or not.

To me Dell does to PC what Wal-Mart did to stores.

[qharley]

The problem with home brew mainly is this:


People go for cheaper options
Never underestimate the effect of a great quiet, well ventilated enclosure
Home builders seldom (if ever) work in anti static environments, and most do not even have an anti-static strap
Some hardware components compete for resources - not intended but it happens, causing intermittent trouble


Given the above, it is still possible to home-build an excellent audio system. Mine is a good example, though I had to change the GPU card because of a hidden incompatibility.

[Mo Facta]

Speaking of which, since this thread started I've been having PC woes. It's acting very strange and I can't for the life of me figure it out.

Firstly, something is causing it to fail the power-up test. When I turn the power on, it keeps powering off and on and it takes me a while before I can get it to actually boot up. Then, on one certain project, IF it let's me into the project (it goes right to blue screen on execution), it won't let me export a mixdown and goes straight to blue screen. But like I said, only on one certain project. I've tried uninstalling free plugins. I've tried disabling both my UAD cards. I've tried re-seating both my ram and my PCI cards, including the graphics card. No change. I have a feeling that either one of the ram chips is gone or it's one of my UAD cards. Or the graphics card. Or the MOTU card. :Uh oh:

Eventually I was able to get into said project and re-inserted my plugins. I thought it might be a channel recall thing (Cubase, at least with me, has a bug where sometimes you get internal errors if you recall channel settings for multiple channels at once) and it stopped blue screening on execution but still gave me trouble on export.

One question I have is, if the power supply is faulty can it cause blue screens?

Cheers :Confused:

[Dave Perry]

Never owned a Mac but my understanding is they are all pre-built and I don't know what the upgrade options are. On the PC side, if you DIY you have a gazillion h/w options from the mo/bo and CPU right down to the fancy neon light show and kryptonite cooling units so if building for very souped up specs is your cup of tea, that may be something to consider.

[Sam]

Hey Mo,

PSU can affect a lot of things in weird ways....the powerup problems are interesting and I have had stuff like this be due to flakey PSU's before - be sure they are not all made equal!!! The guy that builds my rigs these days swears by the Cosair PSU's and only a handful of others....it would be a good place to start thats for sure....

When the bluescreen happens does it say anything - often if it is a driver causing the issue it will be listed here....the fact that the other powerup issues are there first then these other bluescreens makes me thing hardware rather that driver stuff....if you need to, strip the whole thing back to MB, GFX and HDD and add cards back until you find an offender?

I dont agree about a comparable machine being on price par though, well not here in Australia anyways.....comparable machine to a new MacPro here comes out around 2kAU cheaper even when built turnkey by my DAW guy.....and even then it can run OSX if it needs to :) DIY would be cheaper again....

Good luck with it....

Sam

[Mick Stuart]

Mo,

Did you build this system? Are you giving enough juice to the RAM? Or have you tried different RAM? Is the RAM in the right channel order? Does it match if more than one?

[Toonman]

I would start by pulling off everything from the computer, except the keyboard, mouse, and graphics card. See if you still have problems. Then start adding back components one by one... you should be able to tell what's causing the trouble. If you still have problems with everything disconnected, then boot in safe mode, check your RAM (I believe there's a memcheck application out there... from Kingstone, maybe?), drivers, etc. Also check all your fans are working... a dead CPU fan can be a problem.
Hope these help!

[musicdog]

Hey there,

Euhm, for what it is worth. I once had a wireless card inserted in a slot of my motherboard. When just installed, it all worked great for about 3 months. After that, my system was crashing and i couldn`t figure out what it was.

Re-boot and stuff didn`t help all the time, so i asked a friend to help out. He builds his own systems everytime. He couldn`t figure it out as well. So we decided to install XP over again.
After about 3 months it started to crash again, so i talked to my friend again. After a while i remembered the wireless card and asked him about it, but he said that it was most improbable. One thing that could be done to make sure it wasn`t the card, was change it to another slot. That only helped for a while (again about 3 months) then it started all over again.

Anyway, I finally threw the wireless card out of the system and it worked like a charm. It was stable since then and in Cubase SX2, it could do up to 20 tracks with lot`s of plugins on a 2.6G. :Surprised:

Nice story huh!

[Brendo]

Never owned a Mac but my understanding is they are all pre-built and I don't know what the upgrade options are. On the PC side, if you DIY you have a gazillion h/w options from the mo/bo and CPU right down to the fancy neon light show and kryptonite cooling units so if building for very souped up specs is your cup of tea, that may be something to consider.

You can upgrade ram and hard disk in the laptops or imacs (same as any laptop) and in the mac pros, you can change out the CPU, ram, video card as in a regular PC.

Also, how many fucking options do you need? Apple pick the best bits (example, the use of the nvidia chipset instead of intel's centrino platform, and then broadcom for wifi instead of intel etc)

[qharley]

Firstly, something is causing it to fail the power-up test. When I turn the power on, it keeps powering off and on and it takes me a while before I can get it to actually boot up.

My wife's pc had this problem once, and it turned out to be a faulty power-on button. It would intermittently get stuck, turning the computer on for about 5sec before turning it off again...

Your problem does not sound so simple because of the blue screens, but sometimes the solution is so simple you do not even consider it as an option.

[Mo Facta]

Did you build this system?

Yes, it is a custom PC, built by my partner, a guy who has specialised in building custom audio computers for about 10 years. It's been stable as hell forever but now this, which makes me think something has just gone...

Are you giving enough juice to the RAM?

Juice to the ram? All I know is that it has 4GB of Corsair DDR2. Would there be another ram power parameter that I am unfamiliar with?

Or have you tried different RAM?

Well, this is the second batch of ram that we put in as a result of other problems we had a couple of years ago. But this problem has started since I upgraded to Cubase 5.0.1. No matter what happened, Wavelab never gave me problems but yesterday it crashed during an instance of the program when I was changing the buffer size of the MOTU PCI-424 card. Bummer. I am beginning to think it's the MOTU card. Unfortunately I can't troubleshoot without it because if I remove the card, I can't run my audio programs. Catch-22.

A Mac is sounding better every minute :Roll eyes:

Is the RAM in the right channel order?

As far as I know. How would I check? I re-seated the ram a couple of days ago and even though they all appeared to be seated correctly the BIOS told me that system memory was lower and that the third slot (B-0?) wasn't registering. I re-inserted it and it came up fine.

Does it match if more than one?

Not following. Please clarify.

Thanks!

Cheers :)

[musicdog]

Well, this is the second batch of ram that we put in as a result of other problems we had a couple of years ago. But this problem has started since I upgraded to Cubase 5.0.1.
Thanks!

Cheers :)

Hey Mo Facta,

Did you check for an update om CB? When i installed CB5 it gave me a hard time, and so it did many others. Aspecially when trying to import or export stuff.
There was a thread on the Steinberg community formum (or so) I`ll see iff i can find the thread again.
http://cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=111480 (http://cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=111480)

[Toonman]

Juice to the ram? All I know is that it has 4GB of Corsair DDR2. Would there be another ram power parameter that I am unfamiliar with?


I think he means if you're providing enought voltage to the RAM. Commonly, people don't realize that their computer could be under-powered. This happens when you start hooking up USB or Firewire devices to your computer that are powered through the port. This drains power from the power supply. If your power supply is not big enough, you could be starting to under-power your system. This can cause a load of nasty problems. The size (capacity) of the power supply your system needs will depend on how many devices will need power from it. This includes number of hard drives, RAM, external devices, and the video card.


Not following. Please clarify.

Thanks!

Cheers :)

I think he means you should check that your DIMMS are all the same brand, type, and maybe even size (although this is not strictly necessary). Don't mix-n-match different brands or types of RAM. And try to keep the physical amount of RAM in the system down to powers of two (i.e.... 4 GB RAM... don't install 7 MB of RAM). I'm just guessing that's what he meant...

[Mick Stuart]

Yes, it is a custom PC, built by my partner, a guy who has specialised in building custom audio computers for about 10 years. It's been stable as hell forever but now this, which makes me think something has just gone...


Maybe a RAM stick is bad. The problem with RAM is it's divided into sections and if one section has an issue, and that section is never or seldom accessed then you never or seldom see the problem. Only when the RAM is pushed to maximum capacity. A good example is an increased buffer setting.

Juice to the ram? All I know is that it has 4GB of Corsair DDR2. Would there be another ram power parameter that I am unfamiliar with?

Your BIOS can (some motherboards don't, most do) allow you to change the voltage that is given to your RAM. The RAM your using needs a certain amount of voltage to run properly. If it does not have enough, bluescreen. And it's not always going to happen at the same time. Check on the Corsair site and get your exact RAM specs to see if your BIOS is set to give the right amount of voltage. You can also add too much (over clocking) which is good and bad. Over clocking can help the RAM run better at the cost of burning out the RAM sooner because your applying more voltage than the RAM is made for. You don’t need to over clock, but you need to make sure the voltage is what the manufacture suggests. Also, sometimes you have to apply more voltage than what is recommended. The reason is some motherboards and power supplies don’t give accurate amounts. This is where quality of parts come into play.



Well, this is the second batch of ram that we put in as a result of other problems we had a couple of years ago. But this problem has started since I upgraded to Cubase 5.0.1. No matter what happened, Wavelab never gave me problems but yesterday it crashed during an instance of the program when I was changing the buffer size of the MOTU PCI-424 card. Bummer. I am beginning to think it's the MOTU card. Unfortunately I can't troubleshoot without it because if I remove the card, I can't run my audio programs. Catch-22.

Not really a cost effective approach, but you might want to try some different RAM. What is the make and model of your motherboard?

A Mac is sounding better every minute :Roll eyes:

Well either you pay MAC to figure all this stuff out on what works with what and pay the price. Or you do the work your self. The good thing about doing it yourself is you don’t question what’s wrong next time, you know what it is and you fix it and move on. Or you can pay the extra cost for a MAC and use it right out of the box.


As far as I know. How would I check? I re-seated the ram a couple of days ago and even though they all appeared to be seated correctly the BIOS told me that system memory was lower and that the third slot (B-0?) wasn't registering. I re-inserted it and it came up fine.

How is the 4 gigs you have broken down and how many RAM slots are on your motherboard? There is an order in which they need to be installed to work correctly. This depends on you motherboard. You might have a bad motherboard as well if it does not account for what is installed.

Also, are you running Windows XP or Vista and is it 32 bit or 64 bit? 32 bit will only recognize the first 3 gigs of ram in Windows.

Not following. Please clarify.

Again, depending on your motherboard, memory needs to be installed in a certain order and like mentioned about mixing RAM (size, manufacture & type) is not good.

[Mick Stuart]

Toontman made a good point on the power supply. I would need a complete list of what your PC has to tell you what you need as far as power supply goes. I can say this, go over, way over what’s needed. Video cards are bad about being power hungry. USB and FireWire are not so bad, but do add up. Other things like drives and PCI cards have a large affect as well.

[Brendo]

The good thing about doing it yourself is you don’t question what’s wrong next time, you know what it is and you fix it and move on. Or you can pay the extra cost for a MAC and use it right out of the box.

I guess that's why you see Macs a lot in professional studios then - because they don't have time to stand around with their dicks in their hand tweaking the RAM voltage up 0.1v and then running benchmarks to see if the computer is more stable.

[qharley]

I guess that's why you see Macs a lot in professional studios then - because they don't have time to stand around with their dicks in their hand tweaking the RAM voltage up 0.1v and then running benchmarks to see if the computer is more stable.

This may be true for some, but if you have the technical know-how, why settle for machine that should only be serviced by "Qualified Engineers"

Computer hardware fails every now and again, and if something fails on my system, I can fix in the same or the next day, where sending a PC in for repairs sometimes takes weeks here in our sunny southern country - if you are lucky.

Not that I would mind having one of those high end Mac's though. They know how to make computers very very pretty :Wink:

[Bob Olhsson]

If more pro facilities knew about Dell's workstation tech support, they'd probably switch!

They'll show up in your shop the next day and fix the machine on site for the first three years and it's included in the price of the computer.

[Mick Stuart]

I guess that's why you see Macs a lot in professional studios then - because they don't have time to stand around with their dicks in their hand tweaking the RAM voltage up 0.1v and then running benchmarks to see if the computer is more stable.

That’s one way to look at it. For me, standing around with my dick in my hand has never taught me a thing. But finding out why I got a bluescreen has.

Its part of “building” your own PC, to know how to build it.

Your synopsis is very similar to the common man. Let’s depend on something to an extreme and not know a God damn thing about how it actually works so when it tanks all we can do is rely on someone else to fix our mess. And don’t feed me any bullshit on how a MAC never fails.

Personally I would rather have the know how than pay someone else to know how. But I’m a hands on guy, dick in my hand or not.:Coolio:

[vocalnick]

Blah, never mind...

[Brendo]

That’s one way to look at it. For me, standing around with my dick in my hand has never taught me a thing. But finding out why I got a bluescreen has.

Its part of “building” your own PC, to know how to build it.Sure, I've built PCs before, and I used to work in IT support. I get what you're saying. The mac, straight out of the box, just works. On the other hand, I once had a batch of Windows machines where 25% of them bluescreened straight out of the box. Huh.

Your synopsis is very similar to the common man. Let’s depend on something to an extreme and not know a God damn thing about how it actually works so when it tanks all we can do is rely on someone else to fix our mess. And don’t feed me any bullshit on how a MAC never fails.

Oh, macs fail - but Applecare is a great thing. I got a brand new laptop to replace my dying 2 year and 8 month old one, under Applecare.

Again, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to build your own computers - if I was on something other than ProTools I would... but I just can't be bothered trawling through Digi's recommended hardware list to find things that are going to work but are far less than bleeding edge, since they take so long to update the list.

[Mick Stuart]

Sure, I've built PCs before, and I used to work in IT support. I get what you're saying. The mac, straight out of the box, just works. On the other hand, I once had a batch of Windows machines where 25% of them bluescreened straight out of the box. Huh.

Everyone will hit a road block or issue with their computer if they use it. Blaming issues on what type of platform it is is pointless as they all have issues.

Oh, macs fail - but Applecare is a great thing. I got a brand new laptop to replace my dying 2 year and 8 month old one, under Applecare.

Again, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to build your own computers - if I was on something other than ProTools I would... but I just can't be bothered trawling through Digi's recommended hardware list to find things that are going to work but are far less than bleeding edge, since they take so long to update the list.

Thats great they replaced it, you pay for that option and it’s good to here they fulfill their duty to their customers. Like Bob said, Dell offers the same thing as do many manufactures, when you pay for it.

I can understand you don’t want to be bothered with computer specs, you would rather track. I like knowing if it goes down, I can bring it back up. In small business I have to in order to survive.

[macr0w]

I'll take it one step further and add that the second post is absolutely right. A comparable PeeCee to a Mac is not any cheaper.

Precisely.


otek

BEEEEEP!!!!!

That is incorrect sir.

I just built an i7 that will run circles around any mac you can pull up for about $1200.00.

And that includes two 1tb drives that I added. :lol:

Ok, next question please.

[otek]

Not that it REALLY matters to me either way....

but I would say "run circles around" in this context is a case of sky-high rhetoric.



otek

[Bob Olhsson]

...Dell offers the same thing as do many manufactures, when you pay for it...What Dell gives you with their workstations is considerably better than Applecare. They send a technician to your site the next business day who fixes it on the spot. You can pay extra for a three hour service contract but the computer already comes with three years of next day on-site service.

I used nothing but Macs for 15 years and still use my G-3 accelerated 7500 for e-mail and bookkeeping. That's 24 years of Mac use. Applecare used to be way overpriced and involved losing the machine for at least a week. Hopefully it's better than that now.

[Brendo]

Applecare can be had for cheaper on ebay, or usually I find I can haggle the store down to below the cost of the computer, and get applecare thrown in.

As I understand it, you can pay to jump to the front of the applecare queue, but yeah, that's not onsite service.

[Mick Stuart]

BEEEEEP!!!!!

That is incorrect sir.

I just built an i7 that will run circles around any mac you can pull up for about $1200.00.

And that includes two 1tb drives that I added. :lol:

Ok, next question please.

Sense they are both running the same brand of chip now, it’s hard to think one is far better than the other. When fairly compared.

[vocalnick]

Sense they are both running the same brand of chip now, it’s hard to think one is far better than the other. When fairly compared.

I think his point was that by undertaking the assembly and configuration yourself, you can spend more of your money on horsepower, and less on subsidising Apple's feelgood marketing scheme.

With that said, I'm still keenly eyeing off the unibody Macbook Pro... le sigh.

[Brendo]

Right, but that shouldn't be anti-mac bias then, but rather anti-computers-made-by-any-company-of-equivalent-quality bias then.

You know, that includes your Lenovo, HP, Dell etc.

[Mick Stuart]

I understand the point of DYI = savings. But a DYI runs circles around a MAC of the same price? That’s not something I can believe.

As fast or comparable, maybe, run circles around, No.

[Bob Olhsson]

I learned the hard way that DIY only runs circles around a Mac for a while. The Dell I'm using that cost as much as a Mac seems at least as reliable as a current Mac.

[vocalnick]

Right, but that shouldn't be anti-mac bias then, but rather anti-computers-made-by-any-company-of-equivalent-quality bias then.

You know, that includes your Lenovo, HP, Dell etc.

Agreed.

[Brendo]

I learned the hard way that DIY only runs circles around a Mac for a while. The Dell I'm using that cost as much as a Mac seems at least as reliable as a current Mac.

Yeah - really I think it's a case of "you get what you pay for".

[edhombre]

Sometimes you can pay that cost with your own time though... We've had immense luck with the PC quadzilla setup we built from the instructions on the DUC. (Shan is your man over there) Runs Protools LE like a champ (200+ dverbs) and crashes rarely. Yeah, it's been a a bit if a hassle and we've had to get our hands dirty quite a bit but if you have good PC/XP skills I'd recommend doing this over buying any generic off the shelf PC as at least this way you know for a fact that all the physical components are protools compatible and windows protools is SUPER finicky... We've had a solid system for the last year. Any problems we've had can be totally traced to unique occurences within projects and in day to day use it just churns through it.

It definitely works well for us in our world!

edx

[dandeurloo]

Im thinking of upgrading to an I7. Does anyone know what components work best? Also, since they do use the same processors now has anyone tried to run a hackintosh off of their windows machine?

Also, is it a point in MAC's favor that you are not limited to a few gigs of ram? I heard MAC's can stack it up.

[Brendo]

Well, is windows still limited to like, 3gb of ram?

the biggest thing about macs to me is the OS, but then also the fact that I don't have to do an inordinate amount of dicking around to get that OS to run, and then with PT, digidesign will qualify entire systems, not say "ok, so you need to buy THIS motherboard, but then unsolder the two capacitors near the CPU socket and replace them with THESE ones, and then the..."

[meLoCo_go]

Well, is windows still limited to like, 3gb of ram?
Any 32-bit system has such limit. With 64-bit windows you can put any amount of RAM your motherboard permits.

the biggest thing about macs to me is the OS, but then also the fact that I don't have to do an inordinate amount of dicking around to get that OS to run, and then with PT, digidesign will qualify entire systems, not say "ok, so you need to buy THIS motherboard, but then unsolder the two capacitors near the CPU socket and replace them with THESE ones, and then the..."
I never had to do any inordinate amount of dicking around to get any windows system I had to run.
My current WinXP installation is two years old.
Am I lucky?

[Bob Olhsson]

I have been a Mac user since 1986.

When CD-Rs turned into a cheap generic commodity with error-rates all over the map, I was forced to buy a PeeCee because there was/is no mac software available that can test CDs for errors. An old friend of mine put together a machine following the advice given on the DUC. This was right around the time that system neXt was introduced for the mac.

I quickly discovered that despite the decade of horror stories I had heard, windoze xp was solid as a rock and no more complex to set up than my macs had been. I had an extra digi AudioMedia III card so I popped it into the new PeeCee and dusted off the PeeCee slowTools installation disk that was packed with my last software update disk. Lo and behold, pt5 was running way faster on this new amd beast than it had been on my g3 so I contacted all the plug-in developers and an hour later everything I owned was running on the PeeCee. A little DUC research turned up a utility called macDrive and by the end of the same day I was playing mixes from my mac-format audio drives on the new machine.

Meanwhile I was getting endless calls for advice from my friends back in california who were absolutely struggling to get system neXt to work with audio on their new g4s.

[Brendo]

Right, how many daws run on 64 bit windows? how many device drivers etc?

[qharley]

Right, how many daws run on 64 bit windows? how many device drivers etc?

My daw runs in 64bit, with all the right drivers for my hardware - on a PeeCee :Roll eyes:

[meLoCo_go]

Right, how many daws run on 64 bit windows? how many device drivers etc?
All of them?
WinXP64 is around for quite a while and all major DAWs have it's versions for 64-bit.

[Mick Stuart]

Im thinking of upgrading to an I7. Does anyone know what components work best? Also, since they do use the same processors now has anyone tried to run a hackintosh off of their windows machine?

Also, is it a point in MAC's favor that you are not limited to a few gigs of ram? I heard MAC's can stack it up.

Windows XP32 has a 4 gig limit. Vista32 is 4 and Vista64 is 8.

Windows Server32 can use 64 gigs.

Not sure on MAC.

[meLoCo_go]

Windows XP32 has a 4 gig limit. Vista32 is 4 and Vista64 is 8.
This is true for Vista Home Basic, while at Home Premium you can have 16 gigs and all higher versions are up to 128 Gb.
If you wait a bit for Windows 7 retail versions you can have up to 192 gigs at all versions except basic (on 64-bit system).

[Brendo]

My daw runs in 64bit, with all the right drivers for my hardware - on a PeeCee :Roll eyes:

thanks for piping up, linux-boy. i said windows, which is the predominant os on pc.

[Brendo]

This is true for Vista Home Basic, while at Home Premium you can have 16 gigs and all higher versions are up to 128 Gb.
If you wait a bit for Windows 7 retail versions you can have up to 192 gigs at all versions except basic (on 64-bit system).

goddamn. this is what i hate about microsoft. i could deal with two versions of windows xp - home and professional. then they started making more and more and now there's like 50 different versions, none designed specifically for audio work.

linux... thousands of variants there, and again it's hard to know which to choose.

mac? one OS.

[meLoCo_go]

goddamn. this is what i hate about microsoft. i could deal with two versions of windows xp - home and professional. then they started making more and more and now there's like 50 different versions, none designed specifically for audio work.

linux... thousands of variants there, and again it's hard to know which to choose.

mac? one OS.
Well, there's a point in it and I sorta agree with you.
OTOH PC is much more widespread and covers much wider markets so charging regular Joe for features that he never uses is also not the best solution.

[qharley]

thanks for piping up, linux-boy. i said windows, which is the predominant os on pc.

Yes...

It was so nice to see my brother in law show off his brand new vista based super laptop... freezing and waiting and doing everything but impress the crowd.

While everyone else waits for Windows 7, I'll just enjoy doing everything I need on my lowly linux box. Thanks!

[meLoCo_go]

While everyone else waits for Windows 7, I'll just enjoy doing everything I need on my lowly linux box. Thanks!
I'm still happy on WinXP)))
Actually I'm quite interested in Linux. Maybe some day...

[Immanuel]

I just skipped Vista. It is amazing how much faster many PCs would get from upgrading from Vista to XP.

[Mick Stuart]

I just skipped Vista. It is amazing how much faster many PCs would get from upgrading from Vista to XP.

Sad, but true. I want to see what W7 can do as far as speed.

[Mick Stuart]

This is true for Vista Home Basic, while at Home Premium you can have 16 gigs and all higher versions are up to 128 Gb.
If you wait a bit for Windows 7 retail versions you can have up to 192 gigs at all versions except basic (on 64-bit system).

Can you find a PC motherboard that can take more than 24gb? Not much use in high specs when there is no hardware out that can use it because the OS is not the only limiting factor in memory capacity.

[Immanuel]

Can you find a PC motherboard that can take more than 24gb? Not much use in high specs when there is no hardware out that can use it because the OS is not the only limiting factor in memory capacity.
If MS didn't spec up Windows, the hardware manufacturers would not spec up either. A new OS has to bee ahead of hardware in this respect. Othervise the hardware evolution would stop (in this respect)






... and then MS can not sell their W8 in some years time.

[Mick Stuart]

If MS didn't spec up Windows, the hardware manufacturers would not spec up either. A new OS has to bee ahead of hardware in this respect. Othervise the hardware evolution would stop (in this respect)






... and then MS can not sell their W8 in some years time.

Lol, that’s like the chicken and egg theory.

Spec’s don’t matter if they can’t come into play.

[meLoCo_go]

Can you find a PC motherboard that can take more than 24gb? Not much use in high specs when there is no hardware out that can use it because the OS is not the only limiting factor in memory capacity.
I posted this because Brendo hinted that MacOS X has advantage in that respect. Even if it does have advantage your point proves that it is negligible.
I'm not sure how cluster systems are built. You can probably use Windows server for that? Maybe this limit may be useful for such system?

[Mick Stuart]

I posted this because Brendo hinted that MacOS X has advantage in that respect. Even if it does have advantage your point proves that it is negligible.
I'm not sure how cluster systems are built. You can probably use Windows server for that? Maybe this limit may be useful for such system?

I see your point.:Thumbsup: