Compressor attack

[Azalia]

I've been listening to Charles Dye's explanations of compression over the last few episodes of the PSN podcast. After years of struggling to truly understand compression, and how to apply it, things are now starting to make themselves a bit clearer to me thanks to Charles. However, there was one comment I didn't quite understand so perhaps someone here can enlighten me.

I'm paraphrasing badly here but I recall that Charles explained that "attack" was the amount of time it took a compressor to apply the compression to a signal exceeding the threshold. What is actually meant by this? Does this mean that the instant a signal exceeds the threshold the compressor starts to reduce the level of the signal but that the length of time it takes for the signal to reach its maximum compression will depend on the attack. Alternatively, does it mean that the attack setting almost works like a gate in that no compression is applied unless the signal has exceeded the threshold for a certain length of time (the Attack).

To give an extreme example, if I set the threshold at -20db, the attack to 50ms, and the ratio to act as a hard limiter (10 or infinite) then in the event that the signal exceeds the threshold, does Charles mean that A) the compression will kick in instantly but it will take 50ms to reduce the signal right down to -20db or B) that unless the signal stays above -20db for more than 50ms the signal won't be compressed at all but, if it does, then after 50ms the compression will kick in and the signal will instantly be reduced to -20db?

Clearly I'm not as good at explaining things as Charles but hopefully someone will understand what I'm getting at...

[MacGregor]

B) that unless the signal stays above -20db for more than 50ms the signal won't be compressed at all but, if it does, then after 50ms the compression will kick in and the signal will instantly be reduced to -20db?

Clearly I'm not as good at explaining things as Charles but hopefully someone will understand what I'm getting at...

Answer B) is more or less correct.

Explanation of compressor controls:


Threshold: Sets the level at which the compressor starts reducing level. The compressor won't (hopefully) change signals below that level.

Compression Ratio: Sets the amount of gain (level) reduction. The degree to which the dynamic range is reduced. It's a factor, not an absolute value.

Attack: Sets how quickly the compressor reduces the level after the threshold is reached.

Release: Sets how quickly the compressor restores the level to the original amount when the signal falls below the threshold.

[PSN Big Al]

I'm sure Charles will step in here, but in the meantime, here's a quote from the SAE Institute:

"The attack time determines how quickly the the compressor reacts to signals above the threshold. Signals have short sharp peaks called Transients that can easily trigger a compressor to act. The attack time determines how long the peak should be above the threshold before compression takes place.

"These short transients are important in the clarity of a sound but don't effect the loudness of the sound. The aim of compression is to make the instrument sound louder, to squeeze the dynamic range, therefore you may wish to lengthen the attack time and let the transients through (to be dealt with by a limiter if necessary) and the compressor will then be working on sustained levels above the threshold."

[PRobb]

I think you've pretty much got it. Think of a compressor as an automated fader. If the ratio is 10:1 then once the input crosses threshold, it takes 10dB increase in input to produce 1dB increase in output. So if the threshold if is -20 and the input is under -20 the fader is set to unity since you're under threshold. If the input goes to -10, it's 10 over threshold. Since the ratio is 10:1 the output should be -19 (a 1dB increase in output for the 10 over threshold increase in input). So the fader has to come down 9. How quickly it comes down is the attack time. For a drum with a fast transient, if the attack is slow, the transient will be back under threshold faster than the fader can react.

That's a bit simplified, but I hope it makes sense.

[Charles Dye]

Hey Azalia,

Glad to hear it's helping. Thanks!

Does this mean that the instant a signal exceeds the threshold the compressor starts to reduce the level of the signal but that the length of time it takes for the signal to reach its maximum compression will depend on the attack.

Yes.

Alternatively, does it mean that the attack setting almost works like a gate in that no compression is applied unless the signal has exceeded the threshold for a certain length of time (the Attack).

No.

And I'm not sure about the gate description, cuz that's not how gates work that I'm familiar with.

To give an extreme example, if I set the threshold at -20db, the attack to 50ms, and the ratio to act as a hard limiter (10 or infinite) then in the event that the signal exceeds the threshold, does Charles mean that A) the compression will kick in instantly but it will take 50ms to reduce the signal right down to -20db or B) that unless the signal stays above -20db for more than 50ms the signal won't be compressed at all but, if it does, then after 50ms the compression will kick in and the signal will instantly be reduced to -20db?

A is true.

B is false in any compressor I've ever used.

I hope this helps to further clarify.

[Charles Dye]

I see in reviewing the thread there is NOT agreement. This is a good thing. Let's see where this goes...




Batter UP!!

[Dion Stewart]

Fairly clear explanation here...

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_understanding_compressors_compression/index.html


Dion

[MacGregor]

[...]
To give an extreme example, if I set the threshold at -20db, the attack to 50ms, and the ratio to act as a hard limiter (10 or infinite) then in the event that the signal exceeds the threshold, does Charles mean that A) the compression will kick in instantly but it will take 50ms to reduce the signal right down to -20db or B) that unless the signal stays above -20db for more than 50ms the signal won't be compressed at all but, if it does, then after 50ms the compression will kick in and the signal will instantly be reduced to -20db?


Hey Azalia,

A is true.

B is false in any compressor I've ever used.

I hope this helps to further clarify.

Hmh, I hate to disagree here (wait, no: I LOVE to disagree here),
but the manual of my (rarely used) dbx compressor matches
what I've said in my posting above: the compressor WAITS this
long before chiming in.

[Skwaidu]

The word "instantly" at least is false in B) above... This is what we call "knee", and it seldom is instant...

[Charles Dye]

My ear tells me A is absolutely the right answer + my brain tells me B doesn't make any sense.

Besides, the definition you quoted, MacGregor:

"Attack: Sets how quickly the compressor reduces the level after the threshold is reached."

Seems to be in complete agreement with A, while contradicting your own statement in the same post.

And that dbx manual seems to be an over simplified explanation. Plus, as Skyy said, the "instantly" makes no sense whatsoever + would also sound like crap. Like a delayed hard inverse gate.

The answer is A.

I could be missing something here, but that's how I'm seein it.

[Pimp-X]

Compressor Attack is a great name for a psycho movie about outboard gear turned homicidal.

Or, plugins turned suicidal as the case may be. ;)

[PRobb]

When the input crosses threshold the compressor detects it and begins to react. How quickly it does what is determined by parameters like ratio, attack time, knee, etc.

[con mucho gusto]

sheiitt....had to delete this post...i clearly was thinking azalia was asking about something else...

[MacGregor]

My ear tells me A is absolutely the right answer + my brain tells me B doesn't make any sense.

Besides the definition you quoted, MacGregor:

"Attack: Sets how quickly the compressor reduces the level after the threshold is reached."

Seems to be in complete agreement with A, while contradicting your own statement in the same post.

And that dbx manual seems to be an over simplified explanation.



That wasn't quoted from the manual, that were my over
simplified memories of the manuals contents.

The exact quote is:
"The ATTACK control sets the amount of time it takes the 166XL
to begin compressing a signal once the dedector has sensed a
signal above treshold."

Maybe it's wrong or dbx specific, but at least it supports my
answer.


Plus, as Skyy said, the "instantly" makes no sense whatsoever + would also sound like crap. Like a delayed hard inverse gate.


Agreed, that's why I wrote "Answer B) is more or less correct."
in my first posting


The answer is A.

I could be missing something here, but that's how I'm seein it.

I'll buy an 'E'.

[Ethan Winer]

Hmh, I hate to disagree here (wait, no: I LOVE to disagree here)

ROFL, me too.

> the manual of my (rarely used) dbx compressor matches what I've said in my posting above: the compressor WAITS this long before chiming in. <

Not sure if dbx uses special trickery, but in the classic sense these time constants are determined by resistors and capacitors. So most things happen gradually over time, versus doing nothing for a fixed duration then acting suddenly. In a purely analog circuit using old-school designs, the attack and release would both be gradual. Then again, dbx is well known for sophisticated innovations.

--Ethan

[Mixerpuppet]

In a purely analog circuit using old-school designs, the attack and release would both be gradual. Then again, dbx is well known for sophisticated innovations.

--Ethan

I think the term "instant" should be used when using VCA's and some modern detect circuits that are exceedingly quick compared to older Tube and Optical schematics... but the definition of fast in a software based compressor is even another twist...

The ability to do "look ahead" and other Einsteinian tricks can easily be foiled by the brain's ability to hear 9 pico seconds of attack.

Why do they call it attack BTW?

Shouldn't it be something like "post threshold crossover amplitude reduction delay engagement nibnob potentiometer tactile interface"?

In drag racing it's called reaction time... :Surprised:

[Charles Dye]

Compressor Attack is a great name for a psycho movie about outboard gear turned homicidal.

Or, plugins turned suicidal as the case may be. ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[PSN Big Al]

"In a world...where no one knew your true function..."

[Charles Dye]

I'll buy an 'E'.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The exact quote is:
"The ATTACK control sets the amount of time it takes the 166XL
to begin compressing a signal once the dedector has sensed a
signal above treshold."

Well, actually, as I'm reading the above quote, it again seems to agree with A. I realize it could be read in a way that seems to make sense with B, but just think about what B would sound like, if that was how a comp worked.

If B were true + the attack were set to 50ms, then after the threshold is crossed the compressor would wait 50ms + then instantly compress the signal. I don't know of a comp that works this way + if one did, it would sound very abrupt + amusical.

Try testing it yourself with your own compressors + see if they seem to delay the compression for the attack time, or if the attack time is how long the compressor takes to reach full compression.

[Azalia]

Thanks for all the responses thus far. I hadn't anticipated this turning into such an interesting debate! Maybe a topic for a future episode of PSN?


Neil

[PRobb]

If B were true + the attack were set to 50ms, then after the threshold is crossed the compressor would wait 50ms + then instantly compress the signal. I don't know of a comp that works this way + if one did, it would sound very abrupt + amusical.

That's how I'm reading it. Once threshold is crossed, the compressor reacts immediately and starts to do it's thing. In the above example, the thing would be done over a period of 50ms..

[volthause]

Wow this is getting convoluted.

The response time of the compression circuit is *usually* fixed, and is (as Skai stated) usually called the "knee".

Now, the way I've always heard it explained and the way it sounds to me, is that attack is the amount of time AFTER the threshold has been passed, that the compression circuit starts to compress. Thereafter, the knee characteristic dictates the time elapsed from zero to full compression of the audio source.

[Azalia]

Now, the way I've always heard it explained and the way it sounds to me, is that attack is the amount of time AFTER the threshold has been passed, that the compression circuit starts to compress. Thereafter, the knee characteristic dictates the time elapsed from zero to full compression of the audio source.


You might be right. Personally, I had always thought of the "knee" setting by thinking analogising the operation of compressors to the stretching of an elastic band because compression isn't linear. The more you stretch an elastic band, the more difficult it gets to stretch it further. Similarly, I had always thought that compression was similar in that the more a transient exceeds the threshold the more it will be compressed (therefore the ratio is, to an extent, flexible). Transients which only slightly or moderatley exceed the threshold will be reduced in volume more linearly than those which are way way above. Hence, when you look at a compression graph you see that the compression starts as a relatively consistent gradient but then start to peter off near the top. The knee setting can be changed between "hard" and "soft" on some compressors to set just how linearly signals which greatly exceed the threshold will be compressed. Then again, this is probably total nonsense... :lol:

[Azalia]

If B were true + the attack were set to 50ms, then after the threshold is crossed the compressor would wait 50ms + then instantly compress the signal. I don't know of a comp that works this way + if one did, it would sound very abrupt + amusical.[/I]

I tend to agree. Prior to listening to Charles' explanations on PSN I had always thought that B was the way things worked. While listening to what was being discussed on the show, particularly the analogy to ADSR envelopes, I started thinking of compression more in terms of A and I just thought to myself "Yeah, that makes a lot more sense musically". A to me also better ties-in with the practical techniques that you always hear about for the use of compression like smoothing out a vocal, adding attack (in the more conventional musical sense of the word) to a drum hit or adding sustain to an instrument. To my mind, these things just wouldn't work if the compression works in such a time-delayed, on/off fashion as B suggests.

[Trazan]

"Knee" as in "soft knee" and "hard knee"? You guys may be talking about something else, cause that's to do with compression ratio (i.e. ratio gradually going from 1:1 to chosen ratio over a certain amount of threshold dB's) and has nothing to do with attack slope.

I'm in the camp that says attack means the time it takes for the compressor to reach full compression. It's attack and not hold. How about if release means it waits the set amount of time before it starts to release, instantly? :Razz::Razz:

I'm just guessing though, like everybody else here...


I remember the "compressor" in the Ensoniq Paris system...weirdest thing I ever tried. Setting attack time meant setting the time it took until full compression was reached...fine, but it wouldn't act on any signal (above threshold or not) until it had fully released again. Now try using something like that with slow release times :Roll eyes: . Actually sounded quite good with fast settings though.

[Trazan]

Well I have to back myself up!

From ManleyLabs site: "Another important time parameter is Attack Time. Its definition is a bit loose. Sometimes it means the amount of time it takes for the compressor to reach full gain reduction when triggered by an over-threshold input, sometimes it's defined as the time required to get most of the way (I've seen 67% in print) there."

And according to Rick Kreifeldt, Director of Engineering at Dbx Professional Products: "Compressor attack time is defined as:The time it takes for the compressor to enter full gain reduction."

http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-1023.gif

[MacGregor]

Well I have to back myself up!

From ManleyLabs site: "Another important time parameter is Attack Time. Its definition is a bit loose. Sometimes it means the amount of time it takes for the compressor to reach full gain reduction when triggered by an over-threshold input, sometimes it's defined as the time required to get most of the way (I've seen 67% in print) there."

And according to Rick Kreifeldt, Director of Engineering at Dbx Professional Products: "Compressor attack time is defined as:The time it takes for the compressor to enter full gain reduction."

http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-1023.gif


Well, finally first hand information. Thanks a lot.
Send over a warm hello to Rick and ask why the manual of his
dbx 166XL states what I've mentioned above whereas the
manual of the dbx 160A says what you've quoted above.
Hehehe...

Anyway, I stand corrected.

[PRobb]

That's the way I've always heard it. The time it takes to reach the target amount of GR. That's why if the signal is only briefly above threshold, the compressor will begin to attack, but will start to release before reaching full GR.

Knee is not a function of ratio, but of shape. Think of the gain as a line. When the signal is below threshold, the line is flat (unity). Once the signal crosses threshold, the line starts to bend down. The point where the downward bend begins is the knee. If the angle is sharp, it's a hard knee. If it it starts slowly, then gets faster, thats a soft knee.

[imagineaudio]

Knee is not a function of ratio, but of shape. Think of the gain as a line. When the signal is below threshold, the line is flat (unity). Once the signal crosses threshold, the line starts to bend down. The point where the downward bend begins is the knee. If the angle is sharp, it's a hard knee. If it it starts slowly, then gets faster, thats a soft knee.


In a soft knee compressor the ratio will gradually increase from 1:1 to the current setting over a certain level range (ie, 6db). The ratio is between the incoming and outgoing signal. When there is no compression, the input level should be the same as the output, 1:1. The ratio of the input to the output will gradually increase to the full ratio setting, the maximum difference in gain between the input and the output signal.

[Trazan]

Knee is not a function of ratio, but of shape. Think of the gain as a line. When the signal is below threshold, the line is flat (unity). Once the signal crosses threshold, the line starts to bend down. The point where the downward bend begins is the knee. If the angle is sharp, it's a hard knee. If it it starts slowly, then gets faster, thats a soft knee.

That's the effect of the knee, but it's caused by a change in ratio. Hard knee will start compressing at a set ratio as soon as you reach threshold, soft knee will gradually increase the ratio as the signal approaches threshold.

imagineaudiodude, stop making my posts pointless! :Uh oh::Razz:

[Spock]

On a compressor you need some type of attack or you can run into some bad things.

For example.

If you put a nice low sine wave into the comp. that exceeds the threshold, and you had no attack/delay at all, you would start flattening the tops and bottoms of that sine wave. We don't want that.

So you put the input singnal into a variable resistor (your attack time knob) and then to a cap. This way the signal needs to charge up that cap a certain level before the gain starts to get reduced. A steady sine wave is going to take X amount of time before the cap. is .67 percent charged, and this is the "time constant" of that resistor/cap pair.

Another way of looking at it is you care about the average RMS level of the waveform. The attack time sets time window of time over which you are taking that average.

The ratio and hard/soft knee describe the shape of the transfer durve, not how fast it is applied.

[PRobb]

That's the effect of the knee, but it's caused by a change in ratio. Hard knee will start compressing at a set ratio as soon as you reach threshold, soft knee will gradually increase the ratio as the signal approaches threshold.

That's probably a better way to say that.:Thumbsup:

[Pimp-X]

ROFL, me too.

> the manual of my (rarely used) dbx compressor matches what I've said in my posting above: the compressor WAITS this long before chiming in. <

Not sure if dbx uses special trickery, but in the classic sense these time constants are determined by resistors and capacitors. So most things happen gradually over time, versus doing nothing for a fixed duration then acting suddenly. In a purely analog circuit using old-school designs, the attack and release would both be gradual. Then again, dbx is well known for sophisticated innovations.

--Ethan

Agree.

Also, fantastic to have you here, Ethan!

[Charles Dye]

Yes it is. Welcome, Ethan!!

[Bryson]

It's kinda both A+B...... ramp time and delay.
Peaks shorter than the AT will not see compression, though an innocent lower level signal following a peak might (get blamed for exceeding the threshold).

I have seen AT described as the time taken to reach full GR, and as the time I takes for attack to begin.

Whatever.

They all behave differently...feed fwd, feedback, vca, el-op, variable-mu......

[jfee]

It's definately A...the reduction is gradual. But Bryson's right in that there are some compressors that do little of the 'targetted gain reduction' in the beginning of the 'attack time window' and lots of the 'targeted reduction' towards the end of the 'attack time window'. I think when people say thing's like 'grabby' or 'agressive' when describing compressors a lot it has to do with the 'shape' of the attack compressors have when applying reduction...

[Drummerboy]

I made a little test with my samplitude standard compressor and a sine wave. The compressor starts after the signal has exceeded the attack time and reduces gain gradually. Then I set the signal to be under the threshold again and the compressor actually starts to make the signal louder BEFORE it exceeds release time. Could it be that release time depends on how much the signal falls under threshold?

Sine wave was -6dB at the beginning. Threshold is -10dB, attack time 100ms, release 150ms and ratio 10. After 100ms of gain reduction I set the gain of the source signal to be a bit under -10dB again.

I am fully aware that my test is absolutely useless, fullofshit and has no point at all, because we'd never compress a sinewave anyways... :Roll eyes:

[otek]

Like a delayed hard inverse gate.

Somehow, thinking about the operation of a gate was what made it easy for me to grasp this.

If B) were true, then a gate set with a long attack time would open abruptly after the attack time elapsed, causing a sharp (Fourier) click as it lopped off the start of the waveform - the file would appear to start playing late.

Instead, on every single gate I've tried, it softly ramps up, which is generally why we bother to adjust the attack on a gate anyway.


And Ethan, good to have you here!

otek

[Bryson]

....there are some compressors that do little of the 'targetted gain reduction' in the beginning of the 'attack time window' and lots of the 'targeted reduction' towards the end of the 'attack time window'. I think when people say thing's like 'grabby' or 'agressive' when describing compressors a lot it has to do with the 'shape' of the attack compressors have when applying reduction...

160VU

[Ethan Winer]

I am fully aware that my test is absolutely useless, fullofshit and has no point at all, because we'd never compress a sinewave anyways... :Roll eyes:

LOL, sine waves are about the only thing I ever compress! :Razz: :very happy:

Inspired by your post I did the same thing using Sound Forge and the UltraFunk compressor, and the results were exactly as I'd expect. The first image below is the test wave file showing the levels. I created a 1 KHz sine wave at three levels, then copied that block and processed it:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/misc-content/comp-test1.gif

Here's the compressor screen showing the 100 ms attack and 500 ms release times:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/misc-content/comp-test2.gif

Here's a close-up of the attack portion:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/misc-content/comp-test3.gif

The full amount of gain reduction isn't reached until well after 100 milliseconds, but this is as expected. I believe time constants are measured to the point where the level reaches 0.707 of the eventual target.

Here's a close-up of the release portion:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/misc-content/comp-test4.gif

Here too the same 0.707 applies, so again the measured and predicted times seem to agree pretty closely.

--Ethan

[Shan]

Great info on all this Ethan!!!

This would be an interesting test to also do with hardware and other software compressors.


...and for the record, I just finished mixing a track that had a sine wave synth melody...and I did compress it. :grin: :grin:

Shane

[nobby]

Where it starts getting "interesting" for me is the knee.

Because it isn't simply "hard" or "soft". There are different devices with different knee characterisics, and/or adjustable knees.

Depending on how much you paid for your prosthesis.

Sorry. Bad joke. But, in any case, the attack/ release characteristics need to be taylored to the attack/ release characteristics of the sound source.

Since I have only a vague understanding of this, I just fuck around with the parameters until it starts to sound less crappy :grin:

[Charles Dye]

Ethan, you kick @ss!!!

Thank you. Very cule.

[Brendo]

So based on Ethan's diagram, we can safely say that at least in the case of THAT compressor:

Attack is the "fade down" time, from as soon as the compressor sees a transient.

Release, is the time for it to fade back up to no GR, after the signal passes below the threshold again.

[Mixerman]

I've been listening to Charles Dye's explanations of compression over the last few episodes of the PSN podcast. After years of struggling to truly understand compression, and how to apply it, things are now starting to make themselves a bit clearer to me thanks to Charles. However, there was one comment I didn't quite understand so perhaps someone here can enlighten me.

I'm paraphrasing badly here but I recall that Charles explained that "attack" was the amount of time it took a compressor to apply the compression to a signal exceeding the threshold. What is actually meant by this? Does this mean that the instant a signal exceeds the threshold the compressor starts to reduce the level of the signal but that the length of time it takes for the signal to reach its maximum compression will depend on the attack. Alternatively, does it mean that the attack setting almost works like a gate in that no compression is applied unless the signal has exceeded the threshold for a certain length of time (the Attack).

To give an extreme example, if I set the threshold at -20db, the attack to 50ms, and the ratio to act as a hard limiter (10 or infinite) then in the event that the signal exceeds the threshold, does Charles mean that A) the compression will kick in instantly but it will take 50ms to reduce the signal right down to -20db or B) that unless the signal stays above -20db for more than 50ms the signal won't be compressed at all but, if it does, then after 50ms the compression will kick in and the signal will instantly be reduced to -20db?

Clearly I'm not as good at explaining things as Charles but hopefully someone will understand what I'm getting at...

Holy fuck. I just twiddle the knobs until it sounds good. And if that doesn't happen, I move on to the next avialble compressor.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[Kenny Gioia]

Holy fuck. I just twiddle the knobs until it sounds good. And if that doesn't happen, I move on to the next avialble compressor.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Kind of what I was thinking.

But I don't want to poo poo the conversation.

I think it is interesting to discuss but I'd like to hear how it applies to the real world.

Every compressor is probably very different which is why (in part) we choose different compressors for different sources.

In the real world we just have to choose what sounds good and most or all units (that I've seen) don't allow for this type of fine adjustments.

You get a fixed attack or a variable time one. Not an attack knee adjustment or the ability to tweak whether the compressor waits or slopes. I could be wrong.

As I've said, it's interesting to discuss these things but you really need to hear what it's doing (good or bad) and most likely your compressor choices will have more differing parameters than just attack knee.

Although, who knows. Maybe the difference between an SSL 384 and a Neve 2254 is the attack slope. You do have to choose one of them though. You can't get one with the other's attack.

(mod edit: after re-reading my post I realize that I've added nothing. But the post stands.)

[Charles Dye]

(co-mod edit: after re-reading Kenny's post I realize he's added nothing. But am not surprised.)

[Azalia]

(co-mod edit: after re-reading Kenny's post I realize he's added nothing. But am not surprised.)

:lol:

[Ethan Winer]

Kenny,

> But I don't want to poo poo the conversation. I think it is interesting to discuss but I'd like to hear how it applies to the real world. <

Agreed. In the end what matters is how it sounds. But if you understand what the controls do you can get there a lot more efficiently!

I've seen people twiddle the knobs hoping to stumble upon a combination that sounds good. I watched one guy waste five minutes doing that, but all he accomplished was making the track louder with the makeup gain. He really thought he improved the sound! But he never touched the Threshold control, so all that time the compressor was doing nothing at all. :Roll eyes:

--Ethan

[PSN Big Al]

I watched one guy waste five minutes doing that, but all he accomplished was making the track louder with the makeup gain.

Oh DANG it! That's my favorite knob! (Especially the analog modeled make up gain ones.)

And now you're telling me....oh, just kill me now. :Coolio:

[Kenny Gioia]

Agreed. In the end what matters is how it sounds. But if you understand what the controls do you can get there a lot more efficiently!

--Ethan

Very true. I used to have a B team working in our second room that would write and produce for me.

I used to look at there EQ's and ask,"What the hell were you guys thinking". They'd say. "I don't know, I would just turn it til it sounds good".

The EQ graph would be in circles that would make Rupert Neve's head spin. Sometimes it would sound interesting but most times I would just delete it. I do think it's important to know what you want to achieve before you plug a piece of gear in but I also understand that that can be a limitation. You never know what you'll get when you don't know what you're doing.

My only point (although it was hard to find) is that most great compressors do not have fine attack adjustments. You get what you get. So picturing what you want is nice, but you're just going to have to plug them all in. (I guess you can build one :) )

And, thanks for being here Ethan. I've always loved your posts at GS.

Peace. (it's the new War)

[Charles Dye]

Great points, Ethan + Kenny!

The whole "I just twiddle the knobs until it sounds good" (what mixeridiot said that?!) approach is pretty silly.

But seriously, M's a smart guy (albeit irreverent poster) + I'm certain he actually knows what every effin knob on his boxes do + chooses his compressors based on the sound he knows each will give him. Which is what any experienced engineer would do.

Clearly, tweakin till it sounds great iz what we all do.

But MM's post can be a bit misleading, cuz it implies, if ya don't know how to use a compressor... that's okay. Just tweedle-dee-dum the knobs till it sounds good + you'll be rockin!

And quite obviously, nuthin could be further from the truth.

In reality, knowing what the knobs do to your sound allows you to imagine a sound in your mind + recreate it in the speakers; choosing + using the exact tools you know will be right for the job.

And even more importantly, knowing what you did, how you did it, + the impact that it had on your sound, will allow you to repeat your success in the future.

Thanks again, everyone for all these awesome posts.

And let me say 1 more X that Ethan's pix are killer. I'm kinda a visual person + seeing what a compressor is doing really helps me hear what it is doing. Thanks, Ethan, for taking the time to do the tests, take the screenshots + to post them up here. Raisin' the bar.


:movingsinewave: :movingsinewave: :movingsinewave:

[bunnerabb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_level_compression

[Ethan Winer]

Kenny,

I do think it's important to know what you want to achieve before you plug a piece of gear

That's a great point. The same beginner friend I watched waste five minutes with a compressor once asked me what combination of plug-ins he should use on all his voice-over tracks. I told him that voice-overs usually don't need anything at all!

--Ethan

[Mixerpuppet]

But MM's post can be a bit misleading, cuz it implies, if ya don't know how to use a compressor... that's okay. Just tweedle-dee-dum the knobs till it sounds good + you'll be rockin!

And quite obviously, nuthin could be further from the truth.

In reality, knowing what the knobs do to your sound allows you to imagine a sound in your mind + recreate it in the speakers; choosing + using the exact tools you know will be right for the job.



In a way Mixie is right with his "sillyness"... Just twisting the knobs when you don't know how to do something may not be optimum, it begins the ear to brain association required farther down the road as you progess in skill.

How far would most 16 year olds get in Drivers Ed by explaining the gear ratio of the steering box and why beveled gears mesh better than straight cut?

They learn by twisting the wheel until they understand the fundamental of control before moving on to the finesse of NASCAR. Learning is a process not a goal.

Mixie has mentioned colossial screw ups with compression in his earlier days. By experience he knows when new gear shows up, what the knob says if often not exactly what knob sounds like...

The same goes for reverbs, delay, eq... somehow you have to begin to train your ears. Understanding the technical aspects does not always equate to artistic application.

No wonder most engineers fail in the proper artistic application of sex...

I say grab it, start twisting and see where you go...

Now your rockin!

[Kenny Gioia]

Mixie has mentioned colossial screw ups with compression in his earlier days. By experience he knows when new gear shows up, what the knob says if often not exactly what knob sounds like...



Correction. He knows what he expects it to sound like.

None of us know what a new piece of gear sounds like. They're all different and although the knobs might be in the same place, they rarely act the same.

That's why we need to own all of them damn things.

I own a Daking EQ which, according to my vast knowledge, must have all the EQ points labeled wrong. :lol: :lol:

[Mixerpuppet]

Correction. He knows what he expects it to sound like.

None of us know what a new piece of gear sounds like. They're all different and although the knobs might be in the same place, they rarely act the same.

That's why we need to own all of them damn things.

I own a Daking EQ which, according to my vast knowledge, must have all the EQ points labeled wrong. :lol: :lol:

heh heh...

Behringer Gear sounds the same whether you've heard it before or not.... :Razz:

This is not reaeeeally a correction just semantics... :grin:

Expectations are imaginary predeterminations remotely related to reality.

Which is why what the knob says is always different from how it sounds... Evil! (actaully knob don't make noise unless they have detents)

But is that because of variations in the gear or other "outside" influences? (IMO it's potentiometer variability syndrome)

Sounds like your Daking is broke...

I can fix it...

Unless you can do Re-nob it yourself!!!

ITB there are no knobs!

Just Gooey stuff..

NTTWWT

[jord]

Correction. He knows what he expects it to sound like.

None of us know what a new piece of gear sounds like. They're all different and although the knobs might be in the same place, they rarely act the same.

I'm living this crap right now...

I picked up a Focusrite Liquid Mix last month and despite knowing what each knob does on it, the different compressor emulations totally blow my expectations of what things should sound like (sometimes in a good way and others just make me want to scream bloody murder :Mad: ). I finally got to the point where I am making notes in my computer as to which compressor (and EQ) work with which instrument/audio in a certain mixing situation.

jord

[jord]

No wonder most engineers fail in the proper artistic application of sex...

I say grab it, start twisting and see where you go...

Now your rockin!

Are we talking about compression or expansion in this case? :very happy:

jord

[Kenny Gioia]

heh heh...

Behringer Gear sounds the same whether you've heard it before or not.... :Razz:

Well ya got me there.


Expectations are imaginary predeterminations remotely related to reality.

Whaa?

Which is why what the knob says is always different from how it sounds... Evil! (actaully knob don't make noise unless they have detents)

But is that because of variations in the gear or other "outside" influences? (IMO it's potentiometer variability syndrome)

I'm not talking about the difference between 2 1176's.

I'm referring to the difference between an LA3a and a LA2a.

They both have gain and peak reduction buttons but they don't react the same.

[Mixerpuppet]

I'm referring to the difference between an LA3a and a LA2a.

They both have gain and peak reduction buttons but they don't react the same.

I knew what you were talking about roughly without specific part numbers.

Buttons are like Presets? I thought you didn't use presets?

I wouldn't expect a "newbie" to fully comprehend why to "expect" a solid state compressor to behave differently than a tube or an digital compressor.

You might be able to hear 1/2 db of gain reduction but someone with alot less experience may not hear 6db of gain reduction. Twist the knob until "you" hear what it is doing to the sound is ultimately how your brain will associate an expectation of a LA3A or LA2A.

I will add that my mentor forced me to turn the knobs until I heard something change so that he could explain to me what was happening. Sure the day will come where you have to explain the benefits of using something with frequency dependent ratios and thresholds but maybe not for a while...

Memories are imperfect....

[Kenny Gioia]

Right!!!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1065000/images/_1065409_mikemyers1150.jpg

[Brendo]

Are we talking about compression or expansion in this case? :very happy:

jord

Heavy compression resulting in pumping and breathing.

[Charles Dye]

Maybe this is just me, or possibly me, Kenny + Austin, but...


What the heck are ya talkin bout, MP?

[LiYing]

Thank you all guys.

BEFORE yesterday, I have a mistake understand with compression attack .But, at this time ,I Think i am understand!

Thanks !


BTW, did you even use Expender??

[Mixerpuppet]

What the heck are ya talkin bout, MP?

:grin: The Psychology of Learning via Kinetic Associativity in a Psychoacoustic Environment :grin:

Uh.... ear training...

In addition to peppering it with cryptic humor and references to sex...

Trying to be funny...



Must not have worked huh? :Uh oh:



Tough crowd of right handers in this thread...



You try living with a psychologist for a few years (my sis) and see what happens to your brain.... :Razz:


Dang!

[Charles Dye]

uhh... i guess i'm a slooow right-hander.

sorry dood.

keep up the hi comedy. i'll catch up wichya.





From Hagar the Horrible:

[comedian in viking night club... ]

Do we have any Burgundians in the audience?

[waits... no answer]

Oh, good. Well, you all know how slow Burgundians are. So, this Burgundian walks into the...

[guy interrupts... ]

Oh... I'm a Burgundian.



:dumblookingoafscratchinghead: :dumblookingoafscratchinghead: :dumblookingoafscratchinghead:

[Mixerpuppet]

Seems that your attack settings are advanced in the clockwise rotation... that makes it hard to catch the ADHD transients in time. :)

Your not slow in my estimation, Im just strange and unusual to the point that 97% of the Universe thinks of me as an "Anomally"

My wife prohibits me from telling jokes in public because Im too "obtuse"...

or was it because Im retarded...

I gorfet teese tings...







I think the comedian should have known the Burgundian's answer would have been late and delayed the joke telling a few minutes extra. But if the comedian had the predelay box checked in combination with the lookahead detector the joke would have become just another mundane viking statement...

Its amazing but the Hagar Joke explain's Attack settings pretty well... However the level of a Burgindians drunkeness changes everything...

[Mundox]

I'm referring to the difference between an LA3a and a LA2a.

They both have gain and peak reduction buttons but they don't react the same.

I believe La3a is a solid state unit where as La2a is a valve gear. Solid state electronics are faster than valve designs. That might have an effect on how those units react differently at similar settings.

[nomad]

Deleted.

[otek]

I own a Daking EQ which, according to my vast knowledge, must have all the EQ points labeled wrong. :lol: :lol:

...And the knobs aren't center detented, either. :Confused:

[chrisj]

I thought it was:

attack is how quickly it can squish down
release is how quickly it unsquishes
it's always either squishing down or unsquishing, end of story.

:icon_eek:

But I just program the little fuckers...