Mr frustrated is back!

[strangedays]

Ok its great Mixit makes you thing you can mix but what a lot of bollox, I challenge the to do the same from tracking! Thats where is at I thout mixing was hard but recording is the real bitch no matter what I do I can get good sounds and so I presume the fillowing:


1. Unless your mic pre is worth $/£11500+ forget it


2. Unless you have a room developed for recording forget it


3. Ignore the bullshit studio muso



We've been mislead by dance music deveopers (who can perform great stuff on a nintendo but hey ho thats dance music)


Recording suff is a bitch in our own edroon, and I know there are many here who are proper artists, ie you record in a smart enviroment, ths is not for you.


a words Behirnger FUCK OF

2 Sound on sound um, same to you and 3

I hope this music industry gives the rest of us who actually wanna do the job of making music a chance and not all the Simon Cowel wannabys.


Now I slither away back into my dark patch wishing for tomorrow to be better.


um and sorry if you think I've gone mad I just wish sometimes I could achieve a few things with my damb existance!

[qharley]

Frustration is good...

Just don't do something stoooopid!

You can get decent results with all of the above - just as it is possible to produce utter horse crap using the best kitted studio in the world.

Keep trying and you will prevail. What you are doing might be better than "commercial" music out there. At least you know you can do better!

[Knastratt]

Waiter - can I have the same he's having? :grin:

[strangedays]

ok tonight my girl (shes a great muso) has been helping me record a project for a music CV to demo my skills, i want to lot to tell me whats up. Im not there yet and yes some booze has been envolved although not over the whole project. We have written the song so this can show us all what can the WOMBB edeo fo the bedroom muso, lets see! I am determined to finish this with a degree of success, i don't want it to be "just like" within temptation" or just llike "radiohead" but i want it to sound pro!


I recommend those who haven't heard it Paradise Losts' HOST, a great album that uses lots of different sounds and is revolutionary in view (specially from goth perpective - very electronic)

[strangedays]

oh dear appologies for the first post, i was in full merry swing.

Hey its easy for some of us isn't it, if I don't make it as a sound engineer, im gonna be the vodka monsta!

[gronk]

oh dear appologies for the first post, i was in full merry swing.

Hey its easy for some of us isn't it, if I don't make it as a sound engineer, im gonna be the vodka monsta!

ahhh...now it makes sense!

I typed that into babel fish, and it translated to "42"

I think I know what you mean now.

[otek]

Thats where is at I thout mixing was hard but recording is the real bitch

This is a pretty good insight to start with.

Next, realize the room and equipment are important but not the be-all, end-all. Your creativity, ears, vision and persistence are much more important in the end.

Recording suff is a bitch in our own edroon

New sig! :D


otek

[strangedays]

and the next morning moan..

I wish I wouldn't mix and mix - Wine and Guinness are lethal!

Great sig by the way otec

[elborgan]

1. Unless your mic pre is worth $/£11500+ forget it


Not true at all. Pre's are such a small factor when you consider performance, mic positioning, monitoring etc. You CAN get great sounding recordings with cheap mic pres. But you can't get great room sounds without a great sounding room.

2. Unless you have a room developed for recording forget it It in no way has to be 'developed for recording' in fact I've recorded in places where the stair well or hallway sounds better for certain things than the 'developed' room next door. Look around for a space that might not be an expensive studio but sounds great non the less.

Recording in 'edroons' doesn't mean you will automatically get a bedroom sound but there are things you just can't do with small spaces.

[meLoCo_go]

I think it is time for "don't drink and post" compaign:lol:

[AxeSlash]

Dude.



It's not the gear.


Yes, great gear helps, but man...


I'd love to show you around my joke of a studio. It's a fucking hovel, full of cheap shit gear (some of which doesn't work properly). It's a one-room shop with some extremely home-made quick-bodge treatment (it's hilarious).

Better than that, get this:


I HAVE A BEHRINGER DESK IN THERE.


Yet I still get results. Good fucking results.

Or so I'm told, I'm normally too modest for the ego trip, but hey :P


The lesson? Great gear helps, but if you really learn how to eek every last drop of usability out of shit gear first, you're gonna be far and away ahead of the rich kids who start of with the best gear money can buy and can't mix for shit.


I'm not denying that a lot of the art of this game is getting things right at the source, and that takes time and perseverance. But great gear doesn't instantly make great sound. Knock that idea on the head right now, I've heard fucking DREADFUL excuses for a mix done on some frankly fantastic gear.


I will concede that a good room will do wonders (especially when it comes to drums), but I've got by with a variety of shit rooms so far (some of which some guys here would spew just to look at), so you've got no excuse :P



Oh and one thing you should know: if you're still in this game 10 years from now, you'll still feel exactly the same. You'll still feel like you need better everything and that it's a pain in the arse to get it right. You'll be considerably better than you are now, but you'll still look up and see a mountain that you've barely started to climb.

Why?

Because this is - in the words of Our Glorious Father Slippy of the 14th Church Of Heavy Guitar - "a life pursuit".

Don't fool yourself into thinking that one day you'll be able to record great records; if you ever think that you know it all and that you're amazing, a) you have an ego problem and b) you're probably still having your ass kicked by other guys in the business, but you're too blind to see it.

No-one ever achieves perfection in this business, but we all go on learning every day. Every fucking day. Every day that I touch a piece of studio gear I learn something new. I shit you not.



Meh, thread derailment over, normal service will be resumed shortly...

[Eddie G]

I recorded some shit in my edroon that was pretty good.

Made a whole record this last spring.


I learned some really sound techniques here, such as getting fat signals and paying very close attention to performance.

One good mic and one good pre should give you a good starting point.

Keep rocking the edroon, dude.


Eddie

[strangedays]

I call it an edroon, its more of a udyst with a udiost in it.


I just need to hear all you pros out there tell me on a regular basis that you feel your works shit in your eye, that will keep me pursuing this at a nice steady pace.

But seriously, I have checked out various forum members work more so since I have posted here and I love hearing the little traits you all have, I guess for me I would love to know I could have a marker that makes a mix mine, or even emulate that to some degree.

I love it, its addictive and I tell you something I have been up and down with gear I even had a DAV (decca based) recording pre-amp, for the bedroom studio thats £500 worth of gear. I sold it DAMB ME! I loved that thing it was like 2 seriously high quality pre amps and what have a got now, and RME fireface 400 and some cheap valve mic pre's.

But you know what, I aint gonna buy myself one more thing until I start getting some more positive results.

Is that the right attitude? Should I go out there and buy a neve pre? I don't want to keep throwing money at it.

I'd rather pay one of you experts on here £500 for a few days of serious training.

[MacGregor]

The lesson? Great gear helps, but if you really learn how to eek every last drop of usability out of shit gear first, you're gonna be far and away ahead of the rich kids who start of with the best gear money can buy and can't mix for shit.


As a side effect this way you'll learn A LOT about audio processing.

Mac
.

[Tommy Fobia]

As a side effect this way you'll learn A LOT about audio processing.

Mac
.

An electronic maintenance! :lol:

[AxeSlash]

As a side effect this way you'll learn A LOT about audio processing.

Mac
.

Yep, learn to mix and get good results on utter shite, and when you DO get your mitts on some serious gear (and serious musicians), you'll be a god.

My analogue life started out on a little Yamaha 20 channel (and that's stretching the definition - had about 12 actual mic channels IIRC) bag of shit with inbuilt effects and a 3 band non-parametric EQ. Just bass middle and treble.

At the time I thought it was the mutt's nuts, and I abused it regularly and learned how to get at least SOME sort of sound out of it.

And then as I moved on and got to get to grips with the better gear, I discovered that starting on a bag of shit enabled me to get the best out of everything in a minimalist sort of way, allowing me more room to fuck with stuff, rather than e.g. wasting a band of EQ on something that's best left alone etc. Although it has taken away an excuse for when things don't go right ;) It also taught me to focus FIRST on the big picture rather than the details. The details can come later when you have time to fart about. That in itself is an important thing to learn that often a fully kitted out DAW won't give you right off the bat.

Meh, whatever, you seem to have the right mindset - learn first, buy later. I know far too many people who have that the wrong way around.


I suppose this is the advantage of growing up in the world of live sound - a) you rarely get to touch any "does the washing up too" software, and b) nobody will let you loose on good gear on a good gig until you've proved you can make the 25-year-old on-its-last-legs pre-behringer bag of shit through a set of blown Peaveys sound good.

Thus, you have even more motivation to learn, and there's no shortcuts or distractions in the shape of SSL compressor plugins to put on your mix bus...ahem...

Some of the newbies (who shall remain nameless) around here would benefit from some time in that arena I think...



But hey, you've discovered some truths and got the approach right early on. That already puts you way ahead of the other bedroom cubase students who are wondering why their extremely expensive (and/or extremely illegal) plugins sound like shit...



OK DAW-newbie rant over. You may continue.


EDIT: If only software houses made their DAWs like games, i.e. you have to prove you've actually learned and got skills before it will let you advance to the next level...man that would solve some problems...

Hehe, wishful thinking :P

[Dave Perry]

Here's a question that may have been asked already but...has anyone else told you your mixes are shit?

It sounds to me like you need constructive criticism and possibly some compliments you weren't expecting in order to move forward. Remember that frustration feeds back on itself and eventually you see everything through shit colored glasses. :)

Maybe you aren't actually the best person to judge your own work at this point.

[MacGregor]

EDIT: If only software houses made their DAWs like games, i.e. you have to prove you've actually learned and got skills before it will let you advance to the next level...man that would solve some problems...


- one additional track if your mix reaches the top 100
- one additional pan knob if it reaches the top 50
- one equalizer if it reaches the top 10 (maximum: 3)
- one reverb if it reaches the top 5 (maximum: 2)
- one compressor if it goes up to place 1
- a 2-bus if it stays there for 4 consecutive weeks

"Mixer Hero[tm]: soon available in the stores"

You heard it here first.

Mac
.

[HalfBlood]

Hey Strange... I agree with the tracking thing and I feel where you're coming from but just a quick piece of very human advice.

- Remember you've got to have fun or you'll start hating the very thing you love because you're obsessed with it being "pro" or not. I'm starting to hear my stuff rock since I just started taking it easy.

- You are you're own hardest judge which is useful but not when it overrides its purpose. Kind of like when you have so much fear that you function poorly. Fear is useful at times but sometimes you just have to turn it off. Same with judgement.


- Don't just think about music. Do some sport.


- Relax. We all die anyway. Nothing we do is of any transcendent meaning so just choose your own meaning and fall in love with it.

- Learn to love yourself and believe in what you do. Yeah, that sonds wimpy but really. Noone else is gonna satisfy your questions about what you do.

- Stop worrying about not making it in sound engineering. You may and you may not (same applies to me, I'm 28 too). That's not the point, it really isn't. The point is that you can do your best, but only if you're not getting down about it all the time. That's all any of us can do. In any field. No point worrying. Just do what you can.

- My most common mistake is facing emotional problems with rational thought and practical problems with emotional overloads. If this is your case, learn to be aware of it and gradually correct it.

- Allow yourself to suck at times. That's what makes people learn.

From an ex-worrier

:Wink:

Oliver

[gronk]

"Mixer Hero[tm]: soon available in the stores"

You heard it here first.

Mac
.

Daw Wars[tm] is already out...I have the beta version, but I can't get past the multi-band compressor on level -8db. How fast is a fast attack in ms????:Mad:

[strangedays]

Ok I've edited this post cos as usual Ive made a mistake, I know what my issue is and I'll leave it at that to save embarassment


(ok you wanna know, 1. My bass guitar is a £150 6 year old washburn.... not so bad? Ok um... the strings are 6 yrears old - yes 6 years old and for the past three years its been totally useless)







ok confidense wont leave.

But tell me something cos im closer than I thought possibly (well i am now) to getting what i want..

I think my issue consistantly lies with the bass,

I want is to sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z1lntprsUw

Now I ain't gonna moan about not ever being able to get it quite as good but where do I start.

[strangedays]

Ok im a dick...



actually I learnt a lot via this exprience.... but it concerns me a bit about my methodolgy.


I listen to my fav mixes and its become clearer:

1. The perforamce,
2. The actual instruments themselves
3. The Mix Engineer + Production.
4. The Kit



And from what I gather only 1 is important to most listeners..

of course thats bollox, they just don't see the other 2,3+4

[qharley]

Hi Strange...

If your bass stings are 6 year olds, one of these must be true
1. You strings are completely and utterly Fubar. Get new ones
2. You have not been practising enough, and the strings are actually completely and utterly Fubar from oxidising under tension. Get new ones.

:grin:

[strangedays]

Either that or I need one of these babies.

That would make it more expensive than my main guitar.

Anyone into bass what make is worth it to get that nice smooth growl similar to the Warick basses

[strangedays]

ok new bass inserted, it just all feels so up front even with reverb.

[qharley]

Sounds fine to me...

If you want it more to the back, drop it ( a very small bit) with the fader first. Don't try to put it back using reverb, it sometimes accentuates the bass even more!

[strangedays]

After many an hour there is definitly a secret, be it one plug in or a 10 years lesson is karate bass one could not say.

I love mixing, and i love recording i keep at it, but i hope i get it, i love that tight end thats in everything i listen to, i just wish i knew the secret.

My duende may lay to rest though cos I am concerned that im trying to mix engineer when im an IT techy (yea great!)

[otek]

Karate bass? :Confused:


otek

[Dave Perry]

Karate bass? :Confused:


otek

A bass boot to the head, I guess.

[strangedays]

im hoping to answer my own question, i feel more satisfied when i do that.

Karate bass possibly answers it for me. - Maybe i just need to spend more time learning to play the bass.

Theres this real chunky sound at the low end of stuff and its all really hard to fucking hear. I can hear additional guitars used to create more attack, I can also hear in one album stereo bass - ive heard about using stereo bass with a distorted line in the middle but thats a real complex beast in my view.

but it isn't that low, the frequncies on my speccy analizer (forgive the spelling) look fine to me, maybe i don't know how to read em?

I know my speakers go down to about 45hz so ibelieve a sub to not be so useful and besides most of it seems like i shoulbe be listening to 80hz+ for bass and no lower than 60 for kick (depending on the key of the song).

[Dave Perry]

This was posted on a Bose forum by one of the techs/designers at Bose. It may shed some light on how low the frequencies that you need to be concerned with will be:

"Many people think that a 5-string bass need a speaker with a frequency response down to 30 Hz or you wouldn’t be able to hear the low B “properly”.

That’s really not the case. The sound of the bass does not only consist of the actual “fundamental” tone (i.e. 31 Hz in case of the low B) but also many multiples of that frequency (i.e. 62 Hz, 93 Hz, 123 Hz, etc.), which are called the “harmonics”. In fact the amount of energy in the fundamental is relatively small as compared to the rest, so you really don’t loose much by keeping the response low at 30 Hz.

Furthermore, very low frequencies (say below 50 Hz) are not perceptually associated with “bass” or “thump” or “punch” but are much more like an indistinct rumble. We actually have analyzed the frequency content of a lot of recorded music and there is little energy below 50Hz and virtually none below 40Hz. The only type of content that uses very low frequencies regularly is movies. But there it’s not used for musical purposes but as a sound effect, e.g. explosions, starting rockets, a T-Rex stomping along, etc.

In live sound situations very low frequencies tend to make the sound very muddy unless it’s carefully designed fixed installation (as it is in theaters), so most live sound amplification gear will not go particularly low. For example an Ampeg SVT cabinet is only specified down to 55 Hz and most people would claim it does a very adequate job on a 5 string bass."

[strangedays]

i suppose all those very slow moving frequencies just kill the cones as well. I knwot he bass is always to do with low mids more thn anything else (200 hz)


I've been playing with EQ'ing. I have yet to get too involved with quad guitars at this point mainly because im checking out EQ and Panning.

Now from what i gathered if you treat both left and right guitar exactly the same they actually loose some of the stereo image narrowing more into the centre which interfears with the bass separation.

But treating the left and right guitars as different allows one for more of the top fizz (just a little wooshynes) and the other as mean and mr chunky.

Now i have yet to see how this works with 4 guitars cos either you can pan everything equally resulting in my first issue, the narrowing of the stereo field or pan 2 chunkys left and 2 fizzys right or mix up all the frequencies to create 4 indistict sounds blended together from low chunk, mid chunk low crunch to top fizz.

make sense...?

I can hear on a lot of albums when I AB stuff that my mix always sounds very flat and symmetrical with regards to frequency spread, not so much with other mixes and its this that I think helps with stereo serparation.

If I carry on like this im gonna have to stay sober right Knastratt?.

One thing definitly gonna u[lift my spirit on this an have fun finding out cos actually i realised my problem is I need to focus...

[meLoCo_go]

Now from what i gathered if you treat both left and right guitar exactly the same they actually loose some of the stereo image narrowing more into the centre which interfears with the bass separation.

But treating the left and right guitars as different allows one for more of the top fizz (just a little wooshynes) and the other as mean and mr chunky.
Don't think that is true. Umm, not that it is WRONG, but having different sound left and right is probably more of artistic decision than a trick to make something wider or narrower.

Now i have yet to see how this works with 4 guitars cos either you can pan everything equally resulting in my first issue, the narrowing of the stereo field or pan 2 chunkys left and 2 fizzys right or mix up all the frequencies to create 4 indistict sounds blended together from low chunk, mid chunk low crunch to top fizz.
Sounds like more of a player technique problem. If you want 4 tracks, make sure it is played VERY tight. If you have mumble left and right, your stereo image won't be well defined.

[eagan]

More carts before horses here.

Stop.

Change strings.

Resume.

THEN talk about what you do or don't have in your bass tracks.


JLE

[qharley]

Stop.
Change strings.
Resume.


As I said. If it sounds bad when you are playing it you have a serious problem my friend. New strings could just make that difference. You remind me of someone I know that would complain about her car's breaks sounding like steel on steel, but never bothered to have it checked out. :Roll eyes:

[strangedays]

I changed the whole bass mate!

and its helped but that real shine that i hear on material it is i have concluded pure magic, devil stuff i swear!

[qharley]

I changed the whole bass mate!

That also works...

The nice thing about having a console is that I can easily tweak things until it sounds right to me. I record raw, and tweak afterwards, having a digital desk makes it easier that way around.

Added advantage for me is that I have the performance as if live into my console as I play it back from the DAW...

[otek]

Dave Perry said something before which I think is worth examining a bit. He talked about fundamental versus harmonics.

In a lot of bass sounds, what really makes that growl is not the sub bass, because you can hear that growl also on tiny speakers. The harmonics are what really makes the bass stand out, and gives it depth.

You are referencing a lot of rock and metal bands for tone. I can tell you there is often some kind of distorted signal in there, whether it's apparent or not. Try using a guitar amp to blend with your bass amp. Also try using a distortion box and some pedal EQ to shape the tone. The distortion in and of itself doesn't have to be fat sounding - in fact, it's often better if it isn't. You get the fatness from the clean bass amp part of the signal.

The distortion may not always be really prominent in the mix, but it helps the bass stand out and also blends it nicely with the guitars.


otek

[Zoesch]

Mr. Frustrated is back?

Did I ever leave? :lol:

[Dave Perry]

Mr. Frustrated is back?

Did I ever leave? :lol:

Yea, I think he was cloned many times over the course of human history. :grin:

[strangedays]

Its good to be frustrated:icon_eek: keeps me of the drugs..:lol: