Airwindows ADClip Release- plugin converter clipping!

[chrisj]

Okay, so this is the main big deal for the time being... actual A/D converter clipping in a plugin! This is NOT NOT NOT a soft-clip. It will produce absolutely as much level as flat-out digital clipping, BUT it will control high frequency harshness very much while doing so. Nothing else like it barring real expensive converters and slamming them- and even that might not control the high frequency harshness as well as this does.

ADClip is an AU (Audio Unit) plugin for Macs, for use with DAWs like Logic.

Check this out.
'Somebody' at plus eight db: http://www.airwindows.com/m/Somebody-ADClip+8.mp3

'Superstar' at plus nine db: http://www.airwindows.com/m/Superstar-ADClip+9.mp3

Or compare it to raw digital clipping-

Raw digital clipping, +18 db: http://www.airwindows.com/m/Somebody-DigitalClipping+18.mp3

ADClip also at +18 db: http://www.airwindows.com/m/Somebody-ADClip+18.mp3

All at http://www.airwindows.com/index.html where ADClip is $60. Good luck finding a converter that can handle obliteration this gracefully for $60! ;)

I've also released the full version of Ditherbox, and a slapback effect called BackWall. But I think ADClip is a lot closer to what people are after at the moment. I've compared it to raw digital clipping and to Elephant's clipper courtesy of a user who's asking for this type of effect, and it's way less nasty than digital clipping and way hotter than Elephant- I'm not even sure that one's a clipper, it acts almost like a limiter and does weird things to the tips of big transients.

Enjoy- ADClip (and the other ones) are available right now.

[David Aurora]

dude, some time in the next month or so im gonna have to buy a few of these new plugs of yours. good stuff man, keep pumping them out. iron oxide fucking changed my world man

[Skimmer Harris]

I'm obviously missing something here.

(sorry if the answer is obvious but....)

What is the practical application of this plugin?. I'm aware of clipping but why not just 'not clip' things rather than trying to make clipping sound better?

Is this something that will help push the overall volume of a mix?
:Confused:

[David Aurora]

I'm obviously missing something here.

(sorry if the answer is obvious but....)

What is the practical application of this plugin?. I'm aware of clipping but why not just 'not clip' things rather than trying to make clipping sound better?

Is this something that will help push the overall volume of a mix?
:Confused:

yeah man i know it seems counterintuitive to try to clip shit when you spend most of your studio time trying to stop shit clipping :lol: :lol:

but think of it this way- there is no better peak limiter than something that just flat out WILL NOT allow more level through.

its not like we just crank shit up til it clips all the time, but often you find that careful clipping can have far less noticeable side effects than regular peak limiting.

the smart approach is using a variety of techniques, whichever sounds best, and sometimes this type of clipping wins.

[Skimmer Harris]

Thanks David.

I think I get it. Instead of using a limiter to raise the volume of your mix, some people just push the master fader until they hear clipping? with this plugin you can do the latter technique with more success?

Interesting, I thought pushing the level into the red was a definite no go area.

Where does the AD converter come into it? I'm assuming that 'AD' means Analog - Digital?

[David Aurora]

Thanks David.

I think I get it. Instead of using a limiter to raise the volume of your mix, some people just push the master fader until they hear clipping? with this plugin you can do the latter technique with more success?

Interesting, I thought pushing the level into the red was a definite no go area.

Where does the AD converter come into it? I'm assuming that 'AD' means Analog - Digital?

ummm.... not really dude. i think you have the right idea of what is being done but not the right idea of how it is executed.

for starters, you said:

some people just push the master fader until they hear clipping

NO! (well, ok, maybe the people responsible for metallica's last two....). its intended to be done inaudibly. you'd be surprised how much you can clip most mixes before anyone can hear it. you shouldn't really be clipping the meat of the song, it's transients we are trying to cut down in level. herein lies the key to why this is sometimes cleaner than limiting.

with a limiter, it takes time for the transient to set the limiter off, and then it takes time for the limiter to release and return to no (or some, depending on the application) gain reduction. clipping a converter doesn't have the same limitations- when the level hits the ceiling, that's it. there's no reaction time, there's no waiting for release, and it doesn't fuck with the meat, just the peak whereas a regular limiter will drop EVERYTHING down for a split second.

of course, we have lookahead limiters with ultra fast release times available everywhere now, so for attack/release times thats no longer an issue, but not messing with the meat is still relevant.

next point is that you mentioned pushing up the master fader to do this. nope. well, maybe on some systems, i don't really know much about how digital mix busses work when they clip, i think it depends on things like whether its 32 or 48 bit etc, etc. i would be interested to have somebody explain this though. on an analog console, you have a certain amount of headroom before you hear clipping, but how does it work in a typical digital mix buss?

but yeah, what we are talking about is clipping the actual converter. this results in a file that technically is under 0dBFS, so we could set it up to peak at say -0.3dBFS for the final cd, but it has had its peaks clipped to increase the RMS level. on a lot of sources you can gain a metric shitload of extra RMS level here, without any pumping from limiters.

as for your comment about going into the red being a no-go.... yeah, its a good rule of thumb, ESPECIALLY if you dont know how to USE THE RED yet. its like how shit always says "NO USER SERVICABLE PARTS INSIDE. DANGEROUS VOLTAGE....etc". its a good rule of thumb not to open it :lol: but when you recognise the smell of a blown electrolytic capacitor, and you have a soldering iron handy which you know how to use.... well..... you could have the thing working in less than the time it takes to find the number of a repair place.

[chrisj]

David Aurora is da man- all that is exactly right. The point of ADClip is that if you do hard, hard clipping, it always makes the highs really hard as well. This is hard, hard clipping but it totally does not make the highs hard at all. It's some voodoo shit but it worked, and I'm hoping it will help people do what they do and retain more pleasing qualities to their sound.

[Ashermusic]

I guess I can only say that I have nothing in common with folks who think that a primary goal of a mix/mastering should be to get it to be perceived as loud as possible.

I realize that the marketplace is demanding this, but I think it is just sad.

[Skimmer Harris]

Just had a look at your site Chrisj.

Why don't you make these plugins available to protools users as well?

I have to say that the 'look' of the plug-in is genius. Would attract many pro users I would think (does what it does and no need to make it look like an old piece of gear) :Thumbsup:

Are they any good? Don't know, I can't use them. :Sad:

[David Aurora]

I guess I can only say that I have nothing in common with folks who think that a primary goal of a mix/mastering should be to get it to be perceived as loud as possible.

I realize that the marketplace is demanding this, but I think it is just sad.

dude, i dont think you really get the uses of this. theres more uses than simply "louder". as i said, its like the fastest peak limiter on the planet. believe me, there are things you can do besides just smashing masters

Just had a look at your site Chrisj.

Why don't you make these plugins available to protools users as well?

I have to say that the 'look' of the plug-in is genius. Would attract many pro users I would think (does what it does and no need to make it look like an old piece of gear) :Thumbsup:

Are they any good? Don't know, I can't use them. :Sad:

yeah, they ARE good dude. when i was in pro tools i always wondered the same thing. i watched chris announce new plugs and always wondered what they were like. then when i switched to logic, i tried the freebies and some made me nearly shit my pants. so i bought some and use them non stop now.

[Ashermusic]

dude, i dont think you really get the uses of this. theres more uses than simply "louder". as i said, its like the fastest peak limiter on the planet. believe me, there are things you can do besides just smashing masters




OK, then clearly I am ignorant on this issue. Please tell me what I can accomplish by clipping the converters that I cannot accomplish without clipping the converters?

[Fulcrum]

By way of response to asher's queries, it sounds to me like this effect is in the category that KVRaudio calls FSU; i.e., Fuck Shit Up.

There is a difference between someone who clips the converters out of ignorance, and someone who is clipping the converters intentionally-- someone who knows that that is the effect he wants and is able to get it that way. No, it's not always about louder-- assorted tracks on Peter Gabriel's recent albums have rather strident distortion all over them and (a) I don't think I would consider the overall mixes loud, and (b) does anyone really think PG employs engineers who clip the signal by mistake?

As for Skimmer's question, the AU-only nature of ChrisJ's plugs, I can conceivably take advantage now that I am using Logic, but people here have been screaming for VST versions for a while now, and yours is the first post I can recall asking for TDM or RTAS. I'm not sure but I think the cost of the assorted SDKs has something to do with it-- that and the time associated with the learning curve.

[MacGregor]

I'm not sure but I think the cost of the assorted SDKs has something to do with it-- that and the time associated with the learning curve.

At least the VST SDK is free, but time is always a problem. Remember that after the development of a plug-in is completed you have to do some maintenance, and Chris is a one man show.

Mac
.

[otek]

Would attract many pro users I would think

And does. :D


otek

[Ashermusic]

By way of response to asher's queries, it sounds to me like this effect is in the category that KVRaudio calls FSU; i.e., Fuck Shit Up.

There is a difference between someone who clips the converters out of ignorance, and someone who is clipping the converters intentionally-- someone who knows that that is the effect he wants and is able to get it that way. No, it's not always about louder-- assorted tracks on Peter Gabriel's recent albums have rather strident distortion all over them and (a) I don't think I would consider the overall mixes loud, and (b) does anyone really think PG employs engineers who clip the signal by mistake?



Well, that explains it. I just do not relate positively to the aesthetic of "rather strident distortion" of a digital nature or "Fuck Shit Up."

It is what I have have spent a lifetime learning how NOT to do, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I guess I am just old, but it makes me very glad that I will probably not be around long enough to see exactly the level musical aesthetics will eventually devolve to.

[otek]

Well, that explains it. I just do not relate positively to the aesthetic of "rather strident distortion" of a digital nature

Well, I don't use the "A/D version" of this trick much myself, but I've heard it put to use plenty of times, so I will tell you that the very idea of this technique is that the clipping is NOT, in fact, very "strident" - exactly what makes it useful to people who want to take a different tack on regular hard limiting.

When you limit something, especially using the typical "maximizer" style applications, you normally have a gradual softening of transients when approaching your target ceiling - this is how maximizers get away with the amount of gain scheduling they are able to perform.

Clipping a (good) converter, however, doesn't produce this kind of softening (unless some kind of soft clipping is inherently part of the converter's design). This produces a different sound - actually the Logic Bit Crusher set with linear bit/sample rate reduction (only using the gain control) can accomplish something similar, though I am willing to bet not as smooth as Chris's plugin.

I actually do use this technique (by way of the Bit Crusher) on occasion when having to deal with unruly toms, kicks and snares. I insert it after a compressor on individual tracks to smash down the overshoot (though you should also try inserting it before compression). It really increases the amount of oomph and projection, and seems to change the entire tonal curve of the drum somewhat.

This is where I would think Chris's plugin could be put to great use! I am really stoked to try it!


otek

[myrtlebacker]

In past times, people called this solid state clipping and it was considered appalling ;)

[David Aurora]

aaaaargh there is nothing more frustrating than people who dont get a technique getting high and mighty about its flaws. i may have to kill one of you fuckers soon :grin:

if you dont understand the technique, fine. but dont sit there going "well, IIIIIIIII never clip signals...." as if it makes you a better engineer or a purist or something. eat my balls. as a few of us have already said, IT'S NOT ABOUT CREATING DISTORTED AUDIO!!!!! how many times do we have to say this??!!! its about dealing with transients in a less obvious way than limiting.

YES, we can all hear the distortion in the extreme examples chris posted. he's not illustrating distortion as the goal, he's illustrating the difference between his effect and raw clipping. it's not like people are actually salivating going "oh fuck yeah! im gonna push to +18!!!".

[Ashermusic]

I am still waiting for a description of the aesthetic improvement that this can bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by non-clipping techniques.

I am primarily a composer, not an engineer, but even I have never had a problem getting subtle and yet effective limiting with limiters and compressors, and that is all I have seen mentioned so far. "dealing with transients in a less obvious way than limiting" is pretty vague

The plug-in seems to me to be a solution for a problem that is not really problem, but please believe me, my mind is open if this can be better explained.

And I betcha there are indeed people who "are actually salivating going "oh fuck yeah! im gonna push to +18!!!".

[otek]

I am still waiting for a description of the aesthetic improvement

Instead of us sitting around talking about it, you can demonstrate it to yourself very easily.

Make two copies of, say, a snare track. On one of them, strap the Logic limiter (or the AD limiter if you wish). On the other, strap a Bitcrusher (it probably doesn't do this exactly the same way as ChrisJ's plugin, but in principle, it's the same).

Begin slowly increasing gain on the plugins. Take note of the character differences between using limiting and clipping. That's all it is. If you don't like what it does, don't use it.


otek

[otek]

In past times, people called this solid state clipping and it was considered appalling ;)

In past times, people didn't bathe more than once a week! :lol:


otek

[zoff]

Is there an RTAS "bitcrusher" in PT V8?

[myrtlebacker]

In past times, people didn't bathe more than once a week! :lol:


What do you mean with "past times" ? A decent hautgout takes its time. :lol:

[David Aurora]

I am still waiting for a description of the aesthetic improvement that this can bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by non-clipping techniques.

I am still waiting for a description of the aesthetic improvement of somebody who clearly doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about, yet continues to whine about not having it spoon fed to them. "YOUR METHOD IS AWFUL!!! WHAT IS YOUR METHOD, BY THE WAY??"

I am primarily a composer, not an engineer, but even I have never had a problem getting subtle and yet effective limiting with limiters and compressors, and that is all I have seen mentioned so far. "dealing with transients in a less obvious way than limiting" is pretty vague

Are you fucking kidding me? Shit, I better cancel my sessions. In all these years I've been cutting records for a living I had no idea a composer could so easily do my job better. Thanks for letting me know man, I'll have to send my clients your way! That was a lucky find!

I'm guessing it hasn't occurred to you that sometimes things appear vague because there's quite clearly holes in your knowledge? Even though you yourself said you aren't primarily an engineer, yet most of us are, you're standing there telling us that problems with tools we have discovered over thousands of hours of intense listening don't actually exist. And the solution to the problem, while you don't understand it at all, is definitely the wrong solution.

It's like we're standing here discussing the audio equivalent of 1+1=2 and you're like "Slow down egghead, we're not on the moon yet"

Is that an accurate summary of this discussion so far?

The plug-in seems to me to be a solution for a problem that is not really problem, but please believe me, my mind is open if this can be better explained.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Again, you have a thread full of full time engineers saying "Dude! Believe me, it's a very usable plugin". In the same thread you have consistently proven you don't know what the fuck you are talking about with this technique. You have also spent the whole time arguing that it's a stupid idea. But you're open minded..... :Roll eyes:

And I betcha there are indeed people who "are actually salivating going "oh fuck yeah! im gonna push to +18!!!".

I guess you'll pass this statement off as a joke to save face, and honestly I'd strongly recommend that you do cause only an incompetent, deaf as fuck cock-jockey would believe something that ridiculous.

Peace, love and all that bullshit.

[Ashermusic]

Obviously, David, you feel that the more vulgarly you express yourself, the stronger your point becomes. It doesn't, it just reveals you as vulgar and out of of control.

I am STILL waiting for a succinct description of what this does that a bitcrusher/limiter cannot also do without clipping the converter. So far the only answer I have read is that it is smoother.

Apparently, you missed the part where I said that if someone could explain it to me, my mind is open.

Right now, I hear tons of records that are over-compressed, actually distorted sometimes, and crappy sounding, no doubt mixed and mastered by engineers mostly, so please do not expect me to say,"well these engineers who make records for a living say so, that is enough for me."

I have huge respect for good engineers and I have worked with some famous ones. I do not know what a good engineer knows and that is why I am here, but that does not mean I have to swallow everything that is said here whole.

I think I will run over to another forum I go to and see what Terry Manning and Bob Ohlsen have to say. At least there, whatever response I get will not be given crudely and rudely as unlike you, they have class.

[David Aurora]

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Dude, thanks for the laugh, it was refreshing. I haven't wasted time with a tool like you on here for a while, I had been working the polite angle for quite some time. But your continued arrogance and ignorance, which was so annoying that I actually got P.M's of disbelief from other forum users, finally made me decide to try the straight to the point angle.

And unfortunately, it has further proven your jackassery.


Obviously, David, you feel that the more vulgarly you express yourself, the stronger your point becomes. It doesn't, it just reveals you as vulgar and out of of control.

I'm gonna start with the vulgarity issue. Let me preface this by saying the following- get fucked, you fucking fuckwit. See here's the thing- I'm a grown man. Sometimes I use words like fuck, shit, cunt, dickhead or Miley Cyrus. The reason for using these words, is they help me not only express what I'm trying to say, but also the mood. See assholes like you might stand there doing the verbal equivalent of strumming a C major chord all day long and, but I like to add some melody to get the point across with little to no misunderstanding. I like a little spice. But every now and then, a little bitch like you comes along who has no better response to having his ass handed to him on a plate than "Well.... umm.... at least I don't swear".

As for "out of control"... out of whose control? Whose control do you suggest I should be under? Sorry dude, I left home many years ago now, I decide things like my bedtime, my language and when I can go out.

Now, back to the task at hand.


I am STILL waiting for a succinct description of what this does that a bitcrusher/limiter cannot also do without clipping the converter. So far the only answer I have read is that it is smoother.

Apparently, you missed the part where I said that if someone could explain it to me, my mind is open.

You're "STILL waiting for the explanation", that's right, I remember now. And you're open minded too apparently. It's funny, we've explained it a few times now in this thread, and you still don't get it. I can only deduce that's because you don't know your ass from your head. Which is fine, nobody knows everything, everyday we all learn new shit and that's the beauty of how our brains work. The problem though is assholes like you who are incapable of learning new shit because it's hard to hear with your head up your ass. You keep completely missing our points, then getting angry at us for your own ignorance. So sorry, but I'm not about to write "A/D Clipping for Dummies". You'll get the explanations you're given around here. We aren't your paid teachers, we are engineers sharing information with each other. If you are incapable of learning from our explanations, we actually couldn't give a shit.


Right now, I hear tons of records that are over-compressed, actually distorted sometimes, and crappy sounding, no doubt mixed and mastered by engineers mostly, so please do not expect me to say,"well these engineers who make records for a living say so, that is enough for me."

I have huge respect for good engineers and I have worked with some famous ones. I do not know what a good engineer knows and that is why I am here, but that does not mean I have to swallow everything that is said here whole.

Congratulations, you must be gifted to hear that there are overcompressed and distorted records out there. If you knew a damn thing about audio you would realise it's just as easy to distort audio with a limiter, overloading busses, clipping plugins etc as it is with A/D clipping (actually, it's easier, cause with A/D clipping you have to consciously decide to do it), but in your feeble brain I'm sure the blame has already landed firmly on A/D clipping. What is pretty funny too is that you are getting shitty as if I said every engineers word is the gospel, but in the next part of your post you start name dropping engineers who you're gonna ask for answers :lol: :lol:


I think I will run over to another forum I go to and see what Terry Manning and Bob Ohlsen have to say. At least there, whatever response I get will not be given crudely and rudely as unlike you, they have class.

And there it is- "I'm not just gonna believe what engineers tell me..... well, unless they have a cult status among noobs on audio boards". I mean no offense to either of those guys by the way, they are both great engineers. The offense is aimed squarely at you, beyatch.

It's pretty funny that if I went back and took the word fuck out of my previous responses you would apparently now be understanding this discussion. How DO you get by in real life man? I can just see you now, running down the street with tears in your eyes, your pigtails coming loose as the ribbons fall out of your hair, cause the bad man on the corner said "SHIT!" when he kicked his toe on a rock. Must ruin your day.

So yeah, enjoy the R/E/P, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[David Aurora]

HAHAHAHA I was actually being a smartass about the R/E/P, but curiosity got the better of me so I went to have a look.

Yep, it actually was the R/E/P. (http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/26526/0/)

[Ashermusic]

More of the same, I should have expected it. You simply lack the mentality. And please do not think I will be intimidated by it. It is very easy to be a tough guy on the internet, isn't it?

And the control you are out of is self-discipline. You may have heard about it once. But no doubt you reject the concept.

So genius, why not simply break it down into simple terms that even an idiot like me can understand?

No? Can't be bothered? No matter. someone else will, and if I conclude that I did not understand and was wrong, I will say so and learn from it. My ego is not involved.

However skilled you may or may not be, your behavior does not speak well for you.

[David Aurora]

Tough guy? What the fuck are you talking about? Was there a subliminal message in my posts that said I was gonna come over and beat you with a LDC power supply? Jesus christ, you really are a prissy litte bitch aren't you? :lol:

By the way, if you wanna talk about self discipline you might wanna learn a bit more about me than my views on clipping and retards who don't understand it. Come on man, if you're gonna go personal to try to prove something why not put in a little more effort? "You lack self discipline!" "Ummm.... ok..... ?"

Again, read this fucking thread, numbnuts. It has been explained over and over again by myself and others. If you can't grasp it, just shut the fuck up and go discuss something you do understand. Nobody will think less of you. We will, however, think less of you for continuing to make an ass of yourself with your ill-informed, yet holier than thou attitude to the discussion.

[otek]

I am STILL waiting for a succinct description of what this does that a bitcrusher/limiter cannot also do without clipping the converter. So far the only answer I have read is that it is smoother.

Some of these things aren't all that easy to describe in words. And if you think about it, it's not the first time in recording history gear has been used to ends not intended in their design.

Take Dolby A for example, and how it was popular for a while to add "breathiness" by encoding a vocal track without decoding it. Now, you might say it's nothing that couldn't be achieved with EQ and compression - which is essentially what the Dolby A units did - but those units did it in a way that had a very special character. Same goes for the old tube limiters like the BA-6A that was used for clean mic gain instead of a mic pre. The list goes on.

The Airwindows plugin of course emulates this sound, so it is, in and of itself, a way to get an approximation of the effect without clipping the converter - just like you wanted.

But really, we can sit around and try to explain it all day, and it really is no substitute for trying it yourself. Whether you end up liking it or not is a matter of personal preference of course.



otek

[Ashermusic]

Some of these things aren't all that easy to describe in words. And if you think about it, it's not the first time in recording history gear has been used to ends not intended in their design.

Take Dolby A for example, and how it was popular for a while to add "breathiness" by encoding a vocal track without decoding it. Now, you might say it's nothing that couldn't be achieved with EQ and compression - which is essentially what the Dolby A units did - but those units did it in a way that had a very special character. Same goes for the old tube limiters like the BA-6A that was used for clean mic gain instead of a mic pre. The list goes on.

The Airwindows plugin of course emulates this sound, so it is, in and of itself, a way to get an approximation of the effect without clipping the converter - just like you wanted.

But really, we can sit around and try to explain it all day, and it really is no substitute for trying it yourself. Whether you end up liking it or not is a matter of personal preference of course.



otek

Thank you, Otek, the analogy is apt and your point is well taken. I will try it and see whether it adds anything I find desirable.

Thank you for being both helpful and courteous.

[Brendo]

Just had a look at your site Chrisj.

Why don't you make these plugins available to protools users as well?

Are they any good? Don't know, I can't use them. :Sad:

1) Supporting RTAS incurs a hefty fee for the developer, hardly the thing a small independent programmer needs to deal with.

2) You do realize you're reading the LOGIC part of the boards?