Here goes nothing

[Cheech]

The way I see it is that this is like taking medicine or getting a shot the faster you deal with the pain the faster you get to healing. I know I have tons of issues, but I would like you guys to give me some perspective as to where to START correctiong things, and if I have to start from ground zero, then so be it.

Thanks for the opportunity to post, and learn.

Here is a song I just recently mixed for a band I play with...

Have at it.

[Carlo]

The song sounds great to me...exciting and fresh. I would comment that the lead vocals need to make a stronger entrance, to get on top of the instruments...by the chorus, etc., the levels work out.

Again, nice to listen to Cheech! What did you play on this piece?

[Mixerman]

Sounds like you're adding 16k to every channel. To bright and too small to me. Your job is to invite me in. Not to repel me away. More fundamental, less high end EQ on all of your instruments.

The right guitar is 3db too low.

The vocal is too low.

Mixerman

[Cheech]

The song sounds great to me...exciting and fresh. I would comment that the lead vocals need to make a stronger entrance, to get on top of the instruments...by the chorus, etc., the levels work out.

Again, nice to listen to Cheech! What did you play on this piece?


Carlo thanks so much! Man I gotta be honest...I was expection a lot worse. Anyway, I threw the mix down last night, and when I played the disc in the car I did realize the Vocal was low in some places. Its amazing what I dont hear in my room.:Confused:

I played guitar on the project, engineer, production and mix.

Carlo thanks again for listening!!!!!!

[Cheech]

Sounds like you're adding 16k to every channel. To bright and too small to me. Your job is to invite me in. Not to repel me away. More fundamental, less high end EQ on all of your instruments.

The right guitar is 3db too low.

The vocal is too low.

Mixerman


Mixie first of all I am honored that you even listened. Uhhhh I do have a high shelf on the 2 bus maybe boosted about 2db. Maybe I should just flatten that out.

1. What do you think would be contributing to the smallness of the mix? Not enough fundamental?

Originally I thought the left guitar was a little hot..... I guess I get a little shy being the guitar player who just so happens to be the guy mixing it, and I would not want anyone getting the wrong idea that I am trying to showcase myself, but they trust me... they better anyway.

Well, I will get to work on this tomorrow, and post an update ASAP.

Mixie, I know I dont have the highest post count, and I guess would be considered a troll, but I have been following you guys for quite a few years. You actually helped in a big wayto make my decision on getting the Radar24 as my main recorder, and I must say that it has been THE best purchase I have made to date for my humble set up.

I think it was my 2 years experience with PT LE that yielded poor results for me personally, and the fact that you and a few others here had a serious disdain for ProTools, and thought that Radar was acceptable.

(disclaimer) I dont hate PT's I just struggle to make it work for me.

Anyway, I'll shut up, and get to work on my mix.

Again THANKS

[Mixerman]

Mixie first of all I am honored that you even listened. Uhhhh I do have a high shelf on the 2 bus maybe boosted about 2db. Maybe I should just flatten that out.

1. What do you think would be contributing to the smallness of the mix? Not enough fundamental?

Everything is just sizzling. You're lacking mid range. Rock is about the mid range man.

And take that reverb off those drums! If you want reverb on the drums, then pump them into a decent sized room and record that.

Originally I thought the left guitar was a little hot..... Well, they're not even. You might bring the left down 1.5 and the right up 1.5db. But I'd make them even. I'd also have recorded them less precise, and with a different guitar and amp combo, but I personally hate left and right guitars sounding identical. If that's not an option, and you want to spread those a bit more, you can always delay one side by 10ms.

I guess I get a little shy being the guitar player who just so happens to be the guy mixing it, and I would not want anyone getting the wrong idea that I am trying to showcase myself, but they trust me... they better anyway.You're not in danger of this being a guitar players mix.

Mixie, I know I dont have the highest post count, and I guess would be considered a troll, but I have been following you guys for quite a few years. You actually helped in a big wayto make my decision on getting the Radar24 as my main recorder, and I must say that it has been THE best purchase I have made to date for my humble set up.

I think it was my 2 years experience with PT LE that yielded poor results for me personally, and the fact that you and a few others here had a serious disdain for ProTools, and thought that Radar was acceptable.

(disclaimer) I dont hate PT's I just struggle to make it work for me.

Anyway, I'll shut up, and get to work on my mix.

Again THANKSI understand.

Mixerman

[seagate]

+1 on the highs and not enough mids.

I actually like the fact that the left guitar is louder, but +1 on retracking the right one with a different amp.

All in all I really like the track!!! Well done...


Mixerman, what's your definition of a guitar players mix?

PS: What the heck is a "Turkey vulture soup slurper"?

[Cheech]

MM: I'm on it. The most work will be the no reverb on the drums, and recording that pumped through a decent sized room.
(I dont have access to a decent live room is my issue, but I will see if I can get creative.)

And retracking the guitar with a different guitar amp combo, but I can make them happen.


SEAGATE: Thanks so much!!!!!

I was scared to death to post anything up for obvious reasons. Its been known to get a little harsh round these guys, but at this point I needed a good fire lit under my @$$ to get cracking on taking my work to a new level.

Im gonna go get to work, and see what I can do with you guys suggestions.

[Mixerman]

MM: I'm on it. The most work will be the no reverb on the drums, and recording that pumped through a decent sized room.
(I dont have access to a decent live room is my issue, but I will see if I can get creative.)

And retracking the guitar with a different guitar amp combo, but I can make them happen.


SEAGATE: Thanks so much!!!!!

I was scared to death to post anything up for obvious reasons. Its been known to get a little harsh round these guys, but at this point I needed a good fire lit under my @$$ to get cracking on taking my work to a new level.

Im gonna go get to work, and see what I can do with you guys suggestions.

Are you a part off a church? Do you have a friend who is? Do you have any friends with harwood floors in their houses? Or their parents houses? How about a local sudio? Rent the studio for 2 hours. Tell them what you ned to do. Have them set it up for you. Record the mics. $100 later, you have room on your drums. How about during the day at a local nightclub?

Get creative. Find the space, borrow the space (everybody out!), get a PA, pump the drums into the space, record the space.

If you manage to set this up, post here and I'll give you the detailed instructions on how to do this, geting the most out of your room recording.

Reamping the drums and recording a room will make your drums bigger, which will make your song rock more, which will make your mix better. To me, aside from the EQ issues, this is one of your main problems here. Even if you did all this and decide you don't like the drums roomy, you can still use some of that signal to help gel things together.

Mixerman

[Cheech]

I do have access to a fairly large church, and I run the sound.
The house system is ran in mono... its one of those cluster systems hanging from the ceiling. I could patch my set up, or Just burn a CD of the drums tracks and play through the system.

What would be your suggestions on reamping the drums given the options I have. I do not own, and super moist mics or preamps. Should I set up 1 mic, 2 mics?

Instruct me wise one.



Um on the other EQ situations....

I have another guitar track done, with a different guitar, but the same amp through a different cabinet.

I remixed the drums dry. And I feel like I have a good bit more midrange in the mix.

One issue that I notice I run across a lot is a muddy low end that does not allow the mix to have any clarity. One mastering engineer said he noticed a good bump in my mixes between 130 and 160 hz. I am pretty sure its more of a room problem, that I need to take care of.
Anyway I'll wait on those reamping instructions, and post something ASAP.

Thanks for your time MM!!!

[Mixerman]

I do have access to a fairly large church, and I run the sound.
The house system is ran in mono... its one of those cluster systems hanging from the ceiling. I could patch my set up, or Just burn a CD of the drums tracks and play through the system.

What would be your suggestions on reamping the drums given the options I have. I do not own, and super moist mics or preamps. Should I set up 1 mic, 2 mics?

Instruct me wise one.

It's okay if the drums are pumped out mono. Better stereo, but okay mono. What you are going to do is collect room information from two different sides which, due to variations in room reflectivity along with distance from the source, should provide you with a decent stereo image of a mono source.

If it's a really large church with loads of concrete it will be too live. But it will be a hell of a lot better than that digital reverb you're using. You can always gate the reverb, and bring back that glorius sound that Phil Collins made famous, and which was the sound du jour for about 4 years. Yes, I just saiid "sound of the day for about 4 years." Thanks.

As to your questions about gear. I am going to pass down to you one of the most critical lessons, nay credos necessary to accomplishing anything important to you with little to no money and/or equipment. The sooner you acknowledge, memorize, and live by this credo, the better.

Beg, borrow, and steal. (BB&S)

That's it! But don't steal. That's a saying. We used to steal. But we don't steal anymore because stealing is wrong and hurts others. Besides, you're recording this shit in a fucking CHURCH. You're going to STEAL to go record in a church?

Right.

Now, you can't BB&S on every project, and when you BB&S, you will be required to return the favor down the line. Otherwise, the next time you pull the BB&S routine, you will be shunned and shut out.

With credo in hand, this is what I would like you to acquire for your church recording session. Bring two condenser mics (large diaphragm, small diphragm, or one of each, whcatever you can get your hands on. This is mono rock drums. You don't necessarily want a calibrated stereo pair here.

Along with your pair of condensers, bring two SM57s. Worry not. You only need 2 mic pres. You won't be recording all the mics at once. You might not even use the 57s.

Get yourself two quality mic pres. They can even be RNPs. Whatever. Just no bullshit. You and I, we know what is bullshit. Don't make me say it here. Ceratinly you know someone with a decent mic pre. Borrow it, and promise a favor in return.

Once you have that all lined up you let me know. I'll give you your next set of instructions.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[Mixerman]

Mixerman, what's your definition of a guitar players mix?

A mix that sounds like it was mixed by the guitar player.

Mixerman

[Cheech]

OK mixie this is what I got:

1 - U87

1 - Blue Baby Bottle

1 - AKG C451 EB (whichever is the original) SDC

1 - Pair of Rode NT5's SDC

1 - Shure SM 81

5 - SM 57's

You pick.

Ok on preamps...... this is what I got ( may be BS in your book im sure)

I have a presonus MP 20 amd an M80.....:D

I have the Avalon 737 VT whatever.

I dont have any friends locally that I can borrow anything that is not BS. I can however order me a couple of RNP's from Fletcher if need be. Or buy one of those Presonus ADL from Banjo Center then return it..... That aint stealing :D

You tell me.

The Church its large, but not too lively...not any brick at all. It has a balcony, and its fan shaped. The cluster is set up in the middle and suspended from the ceiling. Lots of padded pews, and carpeted back walls.

Balls in your court

[Cheech]

Yo MM Im waiting on those instructions.

[Mixerman]

Ah yes, so sorry.

Any of those mics are fine. Your mic pres are fine. (I've never heard either of them so I really have no idea, but if they pass signal, then we're good to go.)

Now, you need to be able to excite the room. Drums are loud instruments. When you stand next to an aggressive drummer, it can be louder than the threshold of pain. This means they are over 100db right next to the drums. So you're going to have to play them loud out of the speaker. Please send the Priest or Pastor out to the store for some Jesus candles while you do this.

Since this is a mono source, we're going to have to pick up unique reflections. Using two different mics will help. Putting them different distances from the speakers will help. You want reflection, so point the mics towards walls, ceilings, floors. Here's the thing though. It's best to find good room positions by ear. Unfortuntately, you won't have a control room, so you're going to have to record a bit, then listen in headphones.

The most important part of this is the mix coming out of the PA. You don't necessarily want a realistic drum mix when reamping like this. You are most likely going to use less overhead than you would in an actual mix, because you want to reduce the amount of cymbal information exciting the room. You can't eradicate them completely, because some of the openess to the drum sound comes from thos overheads.

Ultimately, I can only give you these pointers. You have to listen to it, try to mix the rooms in, and find the right distances and reflectivity for your particular production and recording.

Lastly, the 57. After you record your stereo condenser microphones, try recording a 57. Start with it all the way in the back of the room. If you think the 57 provides you with a better room sound then record two of them. If you think it's just different, then recod just one of them. Don't worry too much about the 57. If it sounds great, that's good. If it doesn't, just bag it.

Okay. There you have it. After you record your rooms, please supply us with some wave files to listen to. We would like to hear your room mics alone. Your 57 room mics alone (if you use them). And then give us MP3s of your drum mix as it stands now. And an MP3 of the drum mix with the new rooms (as you think they sound best).

Before you record the rooms, are there any questions?

Mixerman

[Mixerman]

Oh, and one last thing. This could be a disaster. It could be an abomination. I have saved more than one drum recording using this method. Often times I am using the main room as a chamber while I'm mixing.

The problem in your case is, I don't know the acoustics of the room. I don't know how powerful the PA is, or if it even sounds good PA. I don't know if you have the tools or the patience to find the ideal setup for this. There are far too many variables to predict success with any kind of confidence. But no matter what, I think you'll learn something out of the exercise. So in that regard, it's probably worth it.

Good luck!

Mixerman

[ajcamlet]

are you just placing these mics at points pleasing to the ear- do you worry about phase at all between the two?

[Mixerman]

are you just placing these mics at points pleasing to the ear- do you worry about phase at all between the two?

The mics shouldn't be anywhere near close enough for there to be any phase coherency issues.

Mixerman

[Cheech]

Ah yes, so sorry.

Any of those mics are fine. Your mic pres are fine. (I've never heard either of them so I really have no idea, but if they pass signal, then we're good to go.)

Now, you need to be able to excite the room. Drums are loud instruments. When you stand next to an aggressive drummer, it can be louder than the threshold of pain. This means they are over 100db right next to the drums. So you're going to have to play them loud out of the speaker. Please send the Priest or Pastor out to the store for some Jesus candles while you do this.

Jesus Candles:lol: . I'll make sure and recomend that.

Since this is a mono source, we're going to have to pick up unique reflections. Using two different mics will help. Putting them different distances from the speakers will help. You want reflection, so point the mics towards walls, ceilings, floors. Here's the thing though. It's best to find good room positions by ear. Unfortuntately, you won't have a control room, so you're going to have to record a bit, then listen in headphones.

The most important part of this is the mix coming out of the PA. You don't necessarily want a realistic drum mix when reamping like this. You are most likely going to use less overhead than you would in an actual mix, because you want to reduce the amount of cymbal information exciting the room. You can't eradicate them completely, because some of the openess to the drum sound comes from thos overheads.

Ok I was going to ask that. How much of each Drum to put in the mix. Im my mind I am thinking I want the snare to be the most affected drum out of all this... So I should just get a good drum mix going, then drop the over heads a bit?


Ultimately, I can only give you these pointers. You have to listen to it, try to mix the rooms in, and find the right distances and reflectivity for your particular production and recording.

Thanks a million!!

Lastly, the 57. After you record your stereo condenser microphones, try recording a 57. Start with it all the way in the back of the room. If you think the 57 provides you with a better room sound then record two of them. If you think it's just different, then recod just one of them. Don't worry too much about the 57. If it sounds great, that's good. If it doesn't, just bag it.

Okay. There you have it. After you record your rooms, please supply us with some wave files to listen to. We would like to hear your room mics alone. Your 57 room mics alone (if you use them). And then give us MP3s of your drum mix as it stands now. And an MP3 of the drum mix with the new rooms (as you think they sound best).

Before you record the rooms, are there any questions?

Mixerman

Ok, im gonna try and get to this tomorrow evening, its gonna require some set up time, and I am heading up your way to the NAMM show this weekend, so I will post all that you asked for ASAP.

Thanks Again!

[ajcamlet]

The mics shouldn't be anywhere near close enough for there to be any phase coherency issues.

Mixerman

Thx! ive never tried this with two mics..

[Mixerman]

Thx! ive never tried this with two mics..

It's better to record the room with the drums, but if that's just not an option, this is an acceptable fix. You're basically just putting together a makeshit chamber, which is usually preferable to a digital reverb.

Mixerman