Thread: Brutally honest predictions

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    I feel for anyone in the biz struggling to make ends meet, but life doesn't owe anyone anything. No need to disparage others about it. People used to deliver ice door to door for a living. Now people sell refrigerators. Things change. Deal with it.
  2. #42
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Heh, maybe "brutally honest" wasn't the best tack here.

    The hard truth is this thread, not just this issue overall, is careening towards becoming personal.
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Well, just as long as you realize that it's all your fault...
  4. #44
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    I think we should try to tread lightly, though.

    For obvious reasons this is a touchy issue. I'm not getting the impression that you make much (or any) money from music MGMc, but some people around here do and we shouldn't throw a c'est la vie in their face about the massive deterioration of an entire industry that they rely on for daily sustenance. For one thing, music professionals host this website, and have offered a lot of (free) helpful advice to other pros and amateurs alike.

    I'm in a situation where I wish I could make money from music, especially since the very real possibility exists that I may be laid off soon from my day job, so the issue is a bit sensitive for myself as well.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Yeah, things are tough all over. The agency I work for is doing it's best to clusterfuck itself into oblivion.

    C'est la vie, indeed.
  6. #46
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    We're stronger together than divided.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Unless we're all together in the unemployment line.
  8. #48
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Let's not talk about that.
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  9. #49
    Ducked in here to avoid the paparazzi Has every David Cassidy record!
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    My brother works at the place (BNL) that has the largest collider that actually works (I think). The one in Cern I believe has been mothballed. He plays wedding gigs (not so much now, due to the economy) and has little time to do anything creative musically.
    Hello

    I worked 4 years at BNL, at the RHIC collider. I had a guitar with me in the "counting room" You never know, alone during night-shifts, inspiration may strike

    Most of us who love music would at least like to have the opportunity to spend most of our time with music, and in order to do that one must derive income from it.

    It's really quite simple.
    No it's not as simple, it's more nuanced than that.

    I live with music all the time. When not playing or at the studio, I compose or arrange in my mind, while programming or eating or taking a dump, etc. And yet, this is not my official job. Again, I am not considering music as a hobby. I value this activity above all others because, simply put, I cannot help it. If I turned it into a paid job, I would soon or later meet contraints that could turn me away from it.

    Your compromise is to derive an income from it, so you can fill up most of your time with music. I compromise my time devoted to music so I do not compromise it with other constraints (commercial deals, time schedules, artistic bias - aka marketing - etc). I did that with research, turned it into a job and I ended up giving it up entirely. As mentioned above, c'est la vie. But I sympathize with ppl having a tough time due to too much compromising. I have been through that and perfectly understand your concerns. Where I am not empathetic is a more "philosophical level" : we don't need an "industry" to enjoy music. I am not against it, I simply won't miss it.

    This is not saying that I am against the majority of ppl dwelling in this forum, not at all. I am glad that you guys made that compromise so that more music were available to a larger public. But you should know that this is not sustainable in the long run. That's not your fault, that's the dynamics inherent to most industries. It is programmed to be so. Knowing that, I'd rather not cry about the inevitable downfall of industry (I have a couple of songs that were inspired from this ).
  10. #50
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    When I've studied history and music history, I've never found much evidence of this. There has always been some but it was never something the average person embraced prior to the rise of a music publishing industry during the latter part of the 19th century.
    you are talking about mass access to ready made music. I was referring to music. Some music instruments date from prehistoric times. So music has by all means always been around, whether made by a couple of musicians in the tribe or edited by industrial modern means.

    I have actually a question to the OP and other industry pros: what is it that really concerns you in a probable downfall of the music industry (by "industry", I mean "as we know it today)" ? Think carefully about that, it is not clear to me that your concern is mainly about music itself. I am very curious about your different answers.
  11. #51
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    But you should know that this is not sustainable in the long run.
    You might add that the entire human race is probably not sustainable in the long run.

    But let's not get too existentialist here.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    ach! I guess the human species is a bit more resilient when it comes to that

    seriously, I am not trying to drift towards some misplaced existentialism, even though recent global events tend to tease the "J.P. Sartre" in all of us

    So, what is your real concern ?
  13. #53
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    you are talking about mass access to ready made music. I was referring to music.
    No, he wasn't talking about mass access, he was talking about quality of music through mastery of the art form. He and I disagree that that is likely to arise in a world with no music professionals, except in rare exceptional cases.

    Vincent Van Gogh is one of the rare examples of a true master of his art who was never able to make any income from it, but I'm not sure there are too many more examples.

    I have actually a question to the OP and other industry pros: what is it that really concerns you in a probable downfall of the music industry (by "industry", I mean "as we know it today)" ? Think carefully about that, it is not clear to me that your concern is mainly about music itself. I am very curious about your different answers.
    Obviously there is self interest at work here, but that is true when anyone is facing a possible end to their livelihood, no?

    I think there is no disagreement between us as to whether professionalism is necessary for music to exist, but rather the disagreement is about whether professionalism is desirable in the music context. I can't speak for everyone who comes here but I think in most cases we think that it is.

    From there you should be able to deduce why we are worried about a total collapse of the music industry.
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Itís a great question Dave. Things are in flux and I have no idea what will happen, but honestly I'm optimistic. .
    Hey, MGMc, what happened to your optimism? It seems to have taken a powder today.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    ach! I guess the human species is a bit more resilient when it comes to that
    Well, since we are talking about "inevitable collapses", why not cut to the chase?

    On a slightly smaller scale, some feel there is an impending global economic collapse. Shall we entertain that as a possibility as well?

    Why stop at music?
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    global economic collapse ? probable, just another iteration of the same phenomenon: any attempt at linearising the dynamics of a fundamentally chaotic system at large scales is doomed to fail. We should know better

    But there are other places for doom-and-gloom predictions. But to come back to the original question: if you see music industry collapsing in a mid to long term future as something inevitable, do you have a plan-B ? I am very serious when it comes to this question because my own income is derived from unsustainable activities. What will I do when the "party is over" for me ? Your topic opens very challenging questions that link the personal and the collective in deep ways. Music will survive for sure and that's comforting.
  17. #57
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Hey, MGMc, what happened to your optimism? It seems to have taken a powder today.

    My optimism is from the perspective of a music lover frustrated with a music industry that fails to deliver great music to my ears on a regular basis, not as someone hoping for a lifetime of paychecks from that industry.

    So yeah, I feel optimistic that Music Industry 2.0 will beat the snot out of what Music Industry 1.0 is doing for me, the consumer.

    I have not doubt that the industry will figure out how to make money again. I just hope a better product will be part of the equation.
  18. #58
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    Originally Posted by thorgal
    Compromises (...) commercial deals, time schedules, artistic bias - aka marketing - etc (...) compromises
    The fact is that, throughout history, all the music (all the works of art, really) that we simply ever got to known about, and loved, and praised, has always been the product of some form of compromise or another. Be it with the local nobility or clergy, then with the early publishers, then with today's labels.

    The format constraints imposed on music producers today are an absolute joke compared to, for example, the rules of counterpoint imposed by the church in the baroque era, which were incredibly drastic, and which gave us the incredible J-S Bach masterpieces, among others, with the richest, most beautifully inventive melodic and harmonic combinations a human brain could ever come up with.

    It seems like the outside world's constraints always challenged, stimulated, excited the true artist's imagination, and made it be all it could be. That is their sole virtue, but it is very important.

    Seeing only the economic/ social aspect of them is missing the point entirely. You can observe the same phenomenon in film history, even in the tough dialectics which drove some directors to emancipate from Hollywood and spawned an entirely new movie aesthetic.

    It is only in the collision of the artist's ideas with the constraints of the real world at a specific point in time that an appropriate universal communication can take place.

    When you are still able to express your personality and freedom inside of that seemingly annoying frame, maybe then, your production will have the slightest chance of getting a shot at relevance. And if you ever go beyond that, transcending the current formats entirely and ending up enlarging the frame a little for everybody else, making your own rules rule, then you're the coolest.

    Otherwise it is just masturbation in dreamland (which can be fun too, I wont deny it )

    Who cares whether the industry is dying ? it will go down the drain just like other aspects of our industrial society. Life moves on nonetheless and music is just an expression of the latter.
    Posing as if you were completely detached from the miseries of this world and couldn't care less, often reveals immaturity and naivete. Unless of course you are a wise, holy man, or... or...

    if you are a steeeenking communist!!!

    Are you? Are you?

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    Last edited by TubaSolo; August 27th, 2009 at 12:25 PM.
  19. #59
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    ah damn, I'm exposed!!!

    your analysis is fair. I just don't share it on a personal level. This is different from a more statistical approach (yours). Objectively, any activity that is producing some work is a compromise (expressed in the form of entropy, yeah, I am a bit biased by my background, I reckon ). The personal freedom lies in the choice of where you want to have this compromise. My creation process tends to be a slow one due to other time constraints. I accept that. You may have a different approach, which is perfectly fine as well. I won't qualify it as masturbation though, as I am not that fast at placing judgments based on a couple of misread statements in an anonymous forum post
  20. #60
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    Default Re: Brutally honest predictions

    This is different from a more statistical approach (yours). Objectively, any activity that is producing some work is a compromise (expressed in the form of entropy, yeah, I am a bit biased by my background, I reckon ).
    My point precisely: could an approach deemed as objective be anything less than statistical (reproducible)? Are singularities ever accounted for in science? They haven't been officially observed if they haven't been reproduced, therefore they don't exist. Unless your compositions are (re)produced, and put out there, if possible trough the most efficient distribution channels available, it's the same as if they didn't exist. Even if, since the advent of Myspace and other infinite music warehouses, that argument is now theoretically flawed.

    A musical idea has probably some things in common with a scientific one, when it goes from the demo stage, through the crucible of studio work, involving team dynamics and dealing with fund providers.

    When, and if, it eventually it comes to fruition, from my experience I've noticed that the whole process, even if difficult at times will, if anything, negate entropy, in that your original idea will in the end be presented in its full potetial glory, backed up with way more energy and authority than it started with. And that, in turn, will begin a new cycle based on audience feedback.

    I won't qualify it as masturbation though, as I am not that fast at placing judgments based on a couple of misread statements in an anonymous forum post
    I agree that was a bit harsh and uncalled for.

    Besides, I think the word masturbation should not be used with a negative connotation. Especially when one uses the sig line below Sorry 'bout that.
    Last edited by TubaSolo; August 27th, 2009 at 04:01 PM.

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