1. #21
    Has Many Personal Intergritys Expensive Boat Anchor
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    just to be clear AGAIN:

    I am more than happy to go and compare a soundblaster to an ATR102 playback of the master

    if ANYONE can tell the difference repeatably, then Ethan needs to say so all over the internets

    if anyone CAN'T, then their hearing-aid batteries will be replaced free of charge. On me.

    other more convoluted and purposely confusing of the issue 'tests' can be discussed after this simple one.

    the statement was a soundblaster is "better fidelity' than any analogue equipment.
    so it seems to me that it should be that perfect reproduction with no detectable difference from the 2 tk original.

    if that first premise is 'wrong' (as if "if" is even a question here) then all else follows.

    that's point one.
    I am down to to test the PREMISE that even basic digital is near perfect reproduction.

    two:
    is that I am (happily) BUSY
    I'm mixing a record, I played two shows on the west coast over the weekend, and as soon as this record (which is 100% analogue) is mastered (at Sterling, and not through a soundblaster), I start another one, I have another long awaited, totally cool, one coming together in the wings, and we're already booking summer touring

    so yes I want to do it. But no, I can't drop everything to do so for the sake of a pointless argument on a site full of sour grapes wannabe label hating time wasters; or to sell more anything to anyone.


    that I am being characterised as 'ducking' or unresponsive is wholly inaccurate. And if not intentionally deceptive, then oddly obtuse. I assume Ethan has acceptable reading comprehension skills, so I have to assume the former.
  2. #22
    A Top 10 Beaver Licker Manet, not Monet!
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    On the one hand, go for gold, fellas.

    On the other hand - use that wasted time for something actually productive? Like making a record (which incidentally, for Ethan, is about as possible as a trip to mars) (although sometimes I wonder if he came from there) (and other times I wonder if he should be sent there).

    Am I the only one, that when I think of Ethan, I think of words like Mountebank? Shyster? Charlatan? Quack? Imposter? Fraud? Numpty? Dunderhead? Lummox? Oxygen Thief? Time Waster?

    Probably not.

    But as I said earlier, if you're really keen on this 'test', (personally I'd call it a repeated demonstration - however it's only a demonstration if the witnesses have sufficiently developed senses to perceive the information) then knock yourselves out. Even if Ethan DID perceive the not insignificant difference, he would immediately internalize his conclusion, and never, EVER admit that his significant legacy of idiocy was, in fact, totally wrong.

    There are no winners here. There are only people who can hear the difference clearly (and make records - go figure) and people who can't. And it's OK to not be able to hear the difference. My wife can't. Yet, she still loves some great sounding records made by people who could.

    She'd be the first to admit she couldn't hear the difference. That doesn't mean the difference doesn't matter.
  3. #23
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    We fish for charlatains here with dynamite...

    I guess, the thing is I hope it goes down it's just that some of us have already jumped through the hoop and are incredulous at the prospect that someone in the "akousticks" business is making these claims.

    Hell, there was even a test that surprised me done back in the dark ages as to whether or not a mackie 8 buss sounded better than the PT mix buss. The mackie won. Mithra help me for saying that out loud.
    The Comte


    "all is indecipherable to him who is not prepared; he can see nothing, read nothing in the interior..."
  4. #24
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    There are no winners here.
    Actually, I feel very much like a winner for not having read about a hundred of the pages of 'Pathetic" thread, the pre pathetic thread, the post pathetic thread, and the beyond pathetic thread at GS.



    You guys were led down the yellow brick road. You'll never get that time back.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
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    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  5. #25
    Voice like Marcel Marceau Aardvark makes parts of me levitate
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    So let me get this right.....


    I can stop aspiring to getting an API console in our place and instead get a 200 DJ mixer?




    BRILLIANT!



    Can anyone recommend a 48 channel DJ mixer or can I just chain 24 together and get the same results?
  6. #26
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    Toronto Maple Leafs Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    So let me get this right.....


    I can stop aspiring to getting an API console in our place and instead get a 200 DJ mixer?




    BRILLIANT!



    Can anyone recommend a 48 channel DJ mixer or can I just chain 24 together and get the same results?
    Don't be an idiot. You need extra 1202's... not a bigger DJ mixer.



    Cheers,
    IswearheisdeafVark



    .
    I actually almost arranged a successful tree incident that should have killed Slipperman. I can do it again.
  7. #27
    Only used HGH to help team Makes love just like a woman
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    The only thing that really bothers me about this whole mess is
    that, I fear it might promote a false art/science dialectic. I find that troubling.

    As for you guys, looking bad to anyone who knows, literally the first thing, about any of the deductive sciences. I really wouldn't worry about that. There is more honor than shame in being slandered by a crank, providing you can keep both your temper and your humor


    My interest in this whole mess comes from a need to understand how complex systems in general are going to be modeled in the future and what characteristics of these systems will admit formal analysis. (well more honestly and specifically how the development of such models will be funded)

    Back in the not too distant past most of the behaviors folks were interested in "proving" were fairly tightly bound. It was and is typical to prove some property of a function, an upper bound on its growth rate for example, which had a specific domain, say Z, and was completely discrete.

    Today the situation is changing pretty rapidly. Increasingly, the systems people are most interested in analyzing are much more complex. They can easily contain some combination of discrete components, continuous components, and statistical components, as well as a human component which might itself have been modeled by any combination of the above. What exactly can we "prove" about such systems? Where do we even start? Beats me but if you look at what large agencies like NSF and DARPA are throwing money at, and you need a slice of that pie to stay fed, it behooves you to find out. So honestly the larger issues expressed in this cluster fuck were anything but a waste of time, really they're the future.


    I think I said this before in one of these threads but I was really impressed by how all you guys handled this. Yeah I know it wasn't ad hominem free, but really it stayed pretty sane and civil for quite a while and it does seem to gravitate back to that.


    And as for having some kind of bad boy image at GS, how could that possibly be a bad thing?



    I salute all you guys who made so many fine and excellent contributions to whatever the fuck this thing was actually about. Seriously the discussion was VERY educational for me and I learned a ton.









    -mous

    All programmers are optimists. Perhaps this modern sorcery especially attracts those who believe in happy endings and fairy god-mothers.

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  8. #28
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Originally Posted by posted by deybwah on GS
    So I went over to the "other side" and maybe I've been spending too much time "making music" but what the hell is up with that forum?? Does this Mixerman guy actually record music? I've heard of his book in other forums as being an entertaining read. It seems like the guy just likes to bash on people in a really immature and arrogant way. Is that how his book is written and why it is so "entertaining?"
    Why yes, I do record music! Thank you for asking. I record more music in any given month than Mr. Winer has recorded in his entire lifetime. And unlike Mr. Winer, I have a verifiable discography. I even have a new book coming out this Fall called Zen and the Art of Mixing. A book that will be unlike any book you've ever read on mixing in which I reveal everything I know on the subject (90,000 words or about 350 pages give or take). A book that has one of my good friends slightly annoyed at me for "giving away the farm" on mixing (as he put it). In fact, I'm fairly certain my book could open your eyes up to a great many things outside of your current scope. Watch out for it!

    I'm probably risking sounding like... well, like I don't know what is going on as far as forum politics/debates are concerned, but that's maybe because I don't! I stay away from partaking in endless debates. Time is sort of a precious commodity and I'd rather spend it researching and learning, opposed to shoving my dogma down another person's throat, or arguing with people if I don't agree with them. Honestly... this kind of behavior is just pointless.
    Really? You think it's pointless for us to ridicule the fact that AES let a guy present AT THEIR LAST SHOW, who doesn't have the most fundamental understanding of how important monitoring is, and who screams mythology regarding everything we know (as a society) about the sonic differences between cheap digital and great digital?

    I don't think that's pointless, my man. I think there is a very fine point indeed, and believe me, the AES is going to be hearing about it.

    If you're a professional, you should be horrified by what this Wingnut is saying. If you're an amateur, perhaps you should let the professionals handle this, and realize that maybe, just maybe, there's more at stake here than just a silly internet argument.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - NOW AVAILABLE!





  9. #29
    Scrabble Tile Arranger Theo's brother the Painter
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    The funny thing, I only asked to have the test methodology and objectives clarified so this didn't turn into a crusade against expensive gear and got locked out of the thread.

    And then... this whole thing about chaining two low end analog devices together... the noise floor alone should be a sign that the test is poorly conceived, but... does anybody listen over there?


    Coded messages in plain text...

    Originally Posted by Dwoz
    Most audiophiles could listen to PERFECT pink noise and get just as much enjoyment out of it.
  10. #30
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    THIS JUST IN!

    Weedy Wet can now post on the Open Invitation thread!

    From all outward appearances, it would seem that Ethan has used his influence as an advertiser on GS (once again), and has submitted a change to the "list" of blocked posters, thus allowing Mr. Wet to engage directly with his accusers.

    Mr. Jules Standen would not be reached for comment.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - NOW AVAILABLE!





  11. #31
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Ya know...

    About 6 years ago on PSW...

    Ahh... Ferget it...

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    SM.
    Kill me. No really. Just fucking kill me.
  12. #32
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I... Just...
    Wait a minute...
    Really...?







    I'm dumbfounded.

    .
    You've wandered into the online audio equivalent of a Black Panther meeting, dressed like a Yuppie golfer, remarking aloud that you wonder if black people really do like fried chicken, watermelon and grape soda.
    -Slipperman

    You apparently haven't read 5% of this place and know nothing of the denizens who lurk and teach or you're just begging to have a cinder block pounded up your ass with a shovel.
    -bbkong

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Just wondering - has anybody else noticed the similarity between "deybwah" and "dubya"????
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
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    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  14. #34
    Once did Lady Di on a bet Happy Roman... Gladiator
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Pax Christi,
    Johnny
    www.johnnydrums.com


    You can't take the sky from me.
  15. #35
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    If a complete blockhead (aka me) can jump in here and ask a potentially ridiculously stupid question:

    Is there anything practical that can be had out of all this Winer discussion/"crap" that can actually be useful somewhere along the line? Because if there is, I'd really love to know what it is.
    "Well, I bought a new shirt and now I gotta, like, bring my shit up to the level of the shirt." - Everett Bradley (episode 23, livefromdarylshouse.com)
  16. #36
    Frustrated Chick Rock singer...now doing jazz standards poorly! Yknee cnut
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    holy guacamole, batman. I try to have a life, not spend all day on the internet, get my piddling vanity recordings archived and totally miss out on this.

    Outrageous claims based on non-science, total recalcitrance in allowing facts, as well as opinions, to the contrary to be presented. The antagonist, whom I have absolutely no idea who he is, strikes an eerily familiar tone. Somebody from a while ago, probably 2 or 3 years back, who had the same effect of poking the hornets' nest with a stick. Who is it that I'm thinking of?

    Mixie, gonna have to check out that new book, I'll scope the banners for info.

    Oh, and before I leave, can somebody give me a brief synopsis to just WTF happened? Somebody let a tin idol do a presentation at AES? Seriously?
  17. #37
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Originally Posted by psalad on GS
    On the other hand, I also understand why some audiophiles might be nervous. Pro wine tasters have been fooled by two buck chuck, audiophiles have been fooled by a coat hanger... why can't at least SOME audio pros be fooled by a soundblaster? Who knows?

    It is understandable that the "golden ears" who are most vocal aren't going... it would be a career limiting move if they couldn't tell the difference, I'd think, it's a big risk for them.
    Mr. Psalad,

    For starters, you throw that term audiophile around a little loosely, considering it's impossible to be an audiophile and a professional mixer and get any kind of reasonable results. Mixing is an art of compromise, and audiophiles don't believe in compromising anything other than the music itself. Secondly, it is Ethan that insists on doing an audiophile test, even after the professional mixers like myself, Weedy, and Kenny have repeatedly told him that we must do the test in a production and mix environment and in a proper mix room.

    Next, as to being afraid. I personally and publicly invited Mr. Winer to fly to LA, stay at my house, and run converter listening tests at EastWest Studios, one of the premier LA complexes (formerly Western Recorders, Ocean Way, and Cello). He declined. I also told Mr. Winer publicly, that I would not be able to get to NYC until the summer, and that we could schedule an event at that time. It is Mr. Winer who has refused to wait for a time period in which I can indulge a 6000 mile round trip, and several days of my time to prove to him something I've proven day in and day out for many years now.

    We, in fact, plan to run a test, IN A PRODUCTION ENVIRONMENT for the next Mixerman Radio Show this summer. Ethan will be invited. He won't show. I can all but guarantee it.

    Now, if a bunch of you want to go to his abode and listen there, only to realize you've just wasted your time since he doesn't have anything set up properly for CRITICAL LISTENING and has no understanding of why that is, then so be it. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me or any of my friends of being afraid, since the record and the order of events regarding this matter tell an entirely different story. If you'd like to read that story, click on the Ethan Winer - Pathetic Post-it above.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - NOW AVAILABLE!





  18. #38
    Voice like Marcel Marceau Spend years studying Twisted Sister's chord structure
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I sincerely love everyone here for beating this dying (not dead, that's next) horse.

    Y'know...I've been making small notes about Ethan's Mackie monitoring for a little while now...

    But I had NO idea about the DJ mixer.

    Just when you think you're out...
  19. #39
    Voice like Marcel Marceau Spend years studying Twisted Sister's chord structure
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Fuck it, I'll highlight my own point.

    Ethan is basing his opinions on all things audio off of something that one of my best friends rightfully impaled on a spike at an AES show 15ish years ago.

    And then that rightfully spiked "mixing tablet" goes into a DJ mixer.

    At least Ethan can truly hear what his mix will sound like "in da club."
  20. #40
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    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    If a complete blockhead (aka me) can jump in here and ask a potentially ridiculously stupid question:

    Is there anything practical that can be had out of all this Winer discussion/"crap" that can actually be useful somewhere along the line? Because if there is, I'd really love to know what it is.
    It's as practical as any other dick measuring contest. No more, no less. I guess 'we' can feel good about being on the team with the biggest dicks, for whatever that's worth.