1. #41
    Voice like Marcel Marceau Spend years studying Twisted Sister's chord structure
    Join Date Sep 2008
    Location Bahstahn, MA
    Posts 285
    Rep Power 536870995

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    If we wanna have a real dick measuring thread, I'd be more than happy to submit my own.

    Of course, we have to come up with a measuring methodology. I vote for a good ol' VHS tape next to the "subject"
  2. #42
    Join Date Apr 2007
    Location Tejas
    Posts 1,865
    Rep Power 0

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

  3. #43
    Quantum Psychic Turkey vulture soup slurper
    Join Date Apr 2010
    Location South Bay LA
    Posts 233
    Rep Power 134217819

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Why yes, I do record music! Thank you for asking. I record more music in any given month than Mr. Winer has recorded in his entire lifetime. And unlike Mr. Winer, I have a verifiable discography. I even have a new book coming out this Fall called Zen and the Art of Mixing. A book that will be unlike any book you've ever read on mixing in which I reveal everything I know on the subject (90,000 words or about 350 pages give or take). A book that has one of my good friends slightly annoyed at me for "giving away the farm" on mixing (as he put it). In fact, I'm fairly certain my book could open your eyes up to a great many things outside of your current scope. Watch out for it!

    Really? You think it's pointless for us to ridicule the fact that AES let a guy present AT THEIR LAST SHOW, who doesn't have the most fundamental understanding of how important monitoring is, and who screams mythology regarding everything we know (as a society) about the sonic differences between cheap digital and great digital?

    I don't think that's pointless, my man. I think there is a very fine point indeed, and believe me, the AES is going to be hearing about it.

    If you're a professional, you should be horrified by what this Wingnut is saying. If you're an amateur, perhaps you should let the professionals handle this, and realize that maybe, just maybe, there's more at stake here than just a silly internet argument.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Hey [MM], I just wanted to apologize for my comments at the GS thread. I think it's painfully obvious that I was seriously mistaken about your credibility. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Anyway, I understand what you're trying to accomplish here now and I'm all for it. I just wish I hadn't walked in on this whole thing when I did and got myself involved.

    But yes, I whole heartedly apologize for being ignorant to the greater reality at hand. This has been a good reality check for me. Thanks for responding to my post with respect and not smashing me to oblivion.
  4. #44
    Martini Drinker Faded rockers wildlife reserve guard
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 3,523
    Rep Power 2500000000

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Hey [MM], I just wanted to apologize for my comments at the GS thread. I think it's painfully obvious that I was seriously mistaken about your credibility. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Anyway, I understand what you're trying to accomplish here now and I'm all for it. I just wish I hadn't walked in on this whole thing when I did and got myself involved.

    But yes, I whole heartedly apologize for being ignorant to the greater reality at hand. This has been a good reality check for me. Thanks for responding to my post with respect and not smashing me to oblivion.
    You're alright.

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - COMING NOVEMBER 2014!





  5. #45
    Voice like Marcel Marceau Spend years studying Twisted Sister's chord structure
    Join Date Sep 2008
    Location Bahstahn, MA
    Posts 285
    Rep Power 536870995

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I love you, too.
  6. #46
    Scrabble Tile Arranger Theo's brother the Painter
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Pretentious City, Straya
    Posts 1,844
    Rep Power 536871070

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!



    Coded messages in plain text...

    Originally Posted by Dwoz
    Most audiophiles could listen to PERFECT pink noise and get just as much enjoyment out of it.
  7. #47
    Only used HGH to help team Makes love just like a woman
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 2,057
    Rep Power 536871076

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I didn't know we had one of these!


    I love it!

    All programmers are optimists. Perhaps this modern sorcery especially attracts those who believe in happy endings and fairy god-mothers.

    -Fred Brooks
  8. #48
    Join Date Apr 2007
    Location Tejas
    Posts 1,865
    Rep Power 0

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Cool, but we're NOT touching tips. (NTTAWWT)
  9. #49
    Failed snuff radio producer Cock like a KM 84
    Join Date Nov 2007
    Location Minneapolis
    Posts 1,332
    Rep Power 44689419

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Ya know...

    About 6 years ago on PSW...

    Ahh... Ferget it...

    Attachment 8823

    SM.
    Double faceplamed despair should NOT be allowed in front of the 9098.

    Don't need to go and get any of them salty tears in the faders...
    One can kill people with many tools; the best assassins use the best and most appropriate tools to get the job done...

    -Comte
  10. #50
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 1,887
    Rep Power 536871071

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    It's seems their own moderators are a bit embarassed, at last

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5301622-post676.html

    malice
    "If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree."

    B.Ohlson, oct 2012
  11. #51
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 10,275
    Rep Power 379012223

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Hey [MM], I just wanted to apologize for my comments at the GS thread. I think it's painfully obvious that I was seriously mistaken about your credibility. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Anyway, I understand what you're trying to accomplish here now and I'm all for it. I just wish I hadn't walked in on this whole thing when I did and got myself involved.

    But yes, I whole heartedly apologize for being ignorant to the greater reality at hand. This has been a good reality check for me. Thanks for responding to my post with respect and not smashing me to oblivion.
    Heh. Heh......
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  12. #52
    Ducked in here to avoid the paparazzi Has every David Cassidy record!
    Join Date Apr 2010
    Location Melbourne, Australia
    Posts 20
    Rep Power 67108937

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    It's seems their own moderators are a bit embarassed, at last...
    Well, moderator (singular) at any rate.

    Saddest thing is the number of enthusiastic puppies falling over themselves to entertain the idea that a soundblaster through a mackie and then a rane will be indistinguishable from a pro setup.

    Fine if they have listened and can't hear a difference. But most of them don't seem to have listened. And even if they had and couldn't hear a dif, that's no reason to assume others won't hear (haven't heard) a difference.

    It's a weird religion, that is for sure.
  13. #53
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 10,275
    Rep Power 379012223

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    It's seems their own moderators are a bit embarassed, at last

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5301622-post676.html

    malice
    pwned
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  14. #54
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location 10.1.1.3
    Posts 2,175
    Rep Power 494928027

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I got locked out of that thread and i don't think i even posted in it!!
    I wouldn't know cause i can't check!

    What kind of mackie is that? Do you have your DJ mixer after it or before?
    I want to make slamming masters like yours. You feel me?
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

    >> York St Recording Studios <<
  15. #55
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 1,887
    Rep Power 536871071

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    <Test files post removed because of a complain from Kenny Gioia>




    malice
    "If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree."

    B.Ohlson, oct 2012
  16. #56
    Craves piCklEmiLk Got pregnant after eating spermicidal jelly
    Join Date Aug 2009
    Location Third Stone From The Sun
    Posts 429
    Rep Power 536870988

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Y'know...I've been making small notes about Ethan's Mackie monitoring for a little while now...

    But I had NO idea about the DJ mixer.

    Just when you think you're out...
    Equally important to note are the monitors being used.

    The jbl 4430's are -3dB at 16k and pretty much fall straight off after that. 35Hz - 16kHz

    http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf
    The bi-direction horn/tweeter is probably one of the worst designs, I've ever seen.

    ..and the Ns 10's +5 dB at 2k...not much belew 60 Hz.

    It would be good to hear from Mr. W why he thinks his setup would be considered to be even remotely accurate or useful in confirming or verifying anything that he has put in print over the last 10 years.

    I have often wondered why Ethan has not been able to hear what can easily be heard by others. Now I know.

    I am not piling on, but for all the shit Ethan has put people through on numerous forums with endless bull shit threads, I think an explanation is due, although I do highly doubt I will ever get one.
  17. #57
    once played a seventh chord in a folk song Can't believe it's not butter
    Join Date Feb 2007
    Location hammertown
    Posts 178
    Rep Power 83886176

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I'm straddling a fine line here: I like that Ethan is about facts (not just HIS own facts, but empirical data, and hard figures, not mere conjecture and chest thumping) and I'm fairly sure his heart is in the right place to dispel the myths that abound in audio recording and reproduction.

    That said, I cannot fully understand why he wouldn't do these tests in a professional environment (i.e. 'real' high profile studio) - it might stem from 'intimidation factors' - poss. association of some of you fellas' rooms and his lack of 'control' in that process, as well as personal affiliations/agendas clouding the/his task at hand. More probable is his belief that his own environment is best suited for 'critical' evaluation, which now - that his gear has been exposed - seems sadly lacking...

    I agree with y'all that placing shit level gear in the audio path (Mackie 1202/Rane DJ mixer) are NOT acceptable to anyone wanting to eliminate garbage entering the signal path: AFAIC, items like those would (IMO) obscure any real details one would hope to hear in a test this critical (NTM his monitoring - about as far from 'critical listening' as you can get?!?)

    Personal anecdote - I was at AES a couple of yrs back, and went to a listening session Benchmark put on at Avatar: suffice to say, there was a small roomful of (some well known) A/E's attending. The last test was A/B'ing a 96k source file against it run thru their gear @ 20X conversion (file played back on the 21st A/D) - not ONE person in that room was able to discern it from the source file. In a nutshell, that test totally changed my perspective on where to shift my focus WRT recording...

    I don't have any vested interest in ANY gear, nor am I interested in towing any party line, I'm merely wanting the 'truth' TM, whatever that equates to. If a Soundblaster could stand up against Apogee etc., I'd like to know, but - I'd want the test to be done in THE MOST CLINICAL/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE.

    fin...

    discuss...
  18. #58
    Quantum Psychic Thinks pizza is a meal
    Join Date May 2007
    Location Colorado
    Posts 237
    Rep Power 172618845

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    Ya know...

    About 6 years ago on PSW...

    Ahh... Ferget it...

    Attachment 8823

    SM.
    man, i so see what you've been doing wrong all these years. you are so right to cover your eyes so to avoid mixing with your eyes, but you got your thumb over your ears!!! thumbs are not acoustically transparent!!! take the thumbs away dude...

    and whats with those faders? why are they so nancy boy middle? you need to mix loud man, push the damn faders all the way up...

    arf arf...

  19. #59
    London Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft Space Station pet
    Join Date Dec 2006
    Location over there, a little to the left..
    Posts 3,279
    Rep Power 470076282

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    I'm straddling a fine line here: I like that Ethan is about facts (not just HIS own facts, but empirical data, and hard figures, not mere conjecture and chest thumping) and I'm fairly sure his heart is in the right place to dispel the myths that abound in audio recording and reproduction.

    That said, I cannot fully understand why he wouldn't do these tests in a professional environment (i.e. 'real' high profile studio) - it might stem from 'intimidation factors' - poss. association of some of you fellas' rooms and his lack of 'control' in that process, as well as personal affiliations/agendas clouding the/his task at hand. More probable is his belief that his own environment is best suited for 'critical' evaluation, which now - that his gear has been exposed - seems sadly lacking...

    I agree with y'all that placing shit level gear in the audio path (Mackie 1202/Rane DJ mixer) are NOT acceptable to anyone wanting to eliminate garbage entering the signal path: AFAIC, items like those would (IMO) obscure any real details one would hope to hear in a test this critical (NTM his monitoring - about as far from 'critical listening' as you can get?!?)

    Personal anecdote - I was at AES a couple of yrs back, and went to a listening session Benchmark put on at Avatar: suffice to say, there was a small roomful of (some well known) A/E's attending. The last test was A/B'ing a 96k source file against it run thru their gear @ 20X conversion (file played back on the 21st A/D) - not ONE person in that room was able to discern it from the source file. In a nutshell, that test totally changed my perspective on where to shift my focus WRT recording...

    I don't have any vested interest in ANY gear, nor am I interested in towing any party line, I'm merely wanting the 'truth' TM, whatever that equates to. If a Soundblaster could stand up against Apogee etc., I'd like to know, but - I'd want the test to be done in THE MOST CLINICAL/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE.

    fin...

    discuss...
    well said. we could definitely do with more facts and less pissing match mentality. personally i dont think the soundblaster theory has a hope in hell, BUT...... id like to know the details of the claim. are we factoring in the analog stages here? just the actual conversion (and which stage- A/D, D/A, A/D/A)? what is the source? how are things clocked? i mean was ethan talking about a strictly technical conversion stage or the whole enchilada from analog input to analog output?

    im one of the few who didnt read the initial clusterfuck thread. i probably would have, but by the time i noticed it the thing was a zillion pages long already. i gotta say im surprised to see the shit being flung at ethan because ive always found him to be a really nice guy on here. i didnt think thats how we treat our own around here. but hey, if some shit went down in that thread to change that relationship between people, thats their business. but if its going to be a total public mud-slinging lets see some test results to make it something worth airing in public
  20. #60
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 6,786
    Rep Power 2500000000

    Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

    There's a real problem with taking the "many-times-loopback" test for digital I/O on faith.

    It is touted as being essentially the same thing as doing multiple bounces on an analog tape deck, and was trotted out as a very embarassing stake in the heart of analog recorders, because, well, you can loopback through a digital I/O a bazillion times, and you bounce through an analog recorder TWICE and you're regretting it.

    But it isn't a valid comparison. The conclusion that is TRUE is NOT the one that everyone who sells digital I/O and evangelizes for digital SAY it is.

    The TRUE conclusion is that the digital I/O is inherently capable of faithfully reproducing it's own output.

    That says NOTHING about being faithful to input. The "many-times-loopback" test is a sham because the degradation cost is incurred on the VERY FIRST PASS.

    "BUT, dwoz....don't JITTER and QUANTIZATION error accumulate?" Yes, but because of the nature of it, in multiple loopbacks the error TRENDS TOWARD THE MEAN. (one of the very cool things about digital theory).

    SO...the takeaway is that a many-times-loopback test doesn't tell you much, if anything at all, about what the I/O does to the audio on the VERY FIRST PASS. I use the "train too tall for the tunnel" analogy...the first time through the tunnel, the train has it's smokestack sheared off, violently. On subsequent traversals of the tunnel, it has no such problem.
    "...but ma, audio engineering IS gainful employment!..."

    "...If I wuz at that club where Miles played one note I would have bounced ONE BOTTLE off his shiny fucking coconut. What? He's Phil Glass now?..." -Slipperman

    "...never attribute to magic, that which can be explained by conspiracy."