1. #1
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    I was on here a couple of month ago in a thread about a guys refusal to defend him self for spouting shite in a magazine (basically). Anyway, I made some comment about a mixing desk being much more than what most people imagine it to be, In the right hands it can be a mean machine with the ability to completely transform the vibe of the track, and lest not forget - completely arrange the song as you throw and twist those faders. Bob Olhson chipped in to say they used to do this during the Motown days where they would completely reset everything for the chorud, a bridge, etc to give it a 'sound' and then slice the tapes together. We can of course do it much easier these days, and that statement from Bob has given me plenty of food for thought.

    I made many records like this ie writing the arrangements as I looped my sequencer bringing in parts, muting them, changing Eq setting as the track bounced to Dat. Theres a helleva lot you can do with a fader, a mute, and some EQ!!. I stopped doing this when I went fully in the box ten years ago simply chucking away a amethod of working I had been doing for ten years years previously THe glint in my eye which the salesman could see was "WOW I can no do this with the coimputer and even edit bits and make the song a billion times better. 26k and three days kater I had my first pro tools Mix + system.

    Over the ten tears and despite my very best efforts and the promises of the software and hardware companies with their can do all plastic controllers I have never ONCE been able to do a satasfiying live performance mix, and believe me I have tried many times.

    So, about six months ago I started buying hardware again. I just had to see if I could still do this. To day I did my first one take off the cuff live mix/arrangement. You can tell Im a little rusty, but you can bet in a few months Ill be flying with the gods of music.

    Of course this is a not a suitable method for all styles of music. Me being electronic based lends its self quite well. But in saying that by using the Olhson method I see no reason why a guitar band couldn't do this

    Check out that video to see what I mean, and hey feel free to discuss and embellish me with some new ideas. OH, the only thing letting me down her is lack of outboard. A bit of compression on the bass, keys etc. OH, and don't laugh at the OnYX24, I like it. It actually has a decent analog compressor built in. Its nasty, but its got vibe.

    http://youtu.be/hJ9N2cqNH2A



    NAH I couldn't figure out how to upload the video image!
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Mixing with faders does look more fun than drawing lines in a DAW :-)



    Could someone rename this thread to "... performance mixing ..."?
    Intellectually perfect only means there's nothing wrong. To me, overproduction means throwing away what's right in a herculean effort to achieve nothing wrong. (Bob Olhsson)
  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    I think if you read Bob O's posts carefully, his position seems to be that arranging - or indeed re-arranging - on the console was a giant step backwards.


    Certainly the concept of punching sections of a mix and editing the results together is valid...especially if your working method doesn't include dynamic automation of everything on the channel strip...but we are talking about level/eq/dynamics decisions in a given arrangement - not re-arranging the song.


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    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Maybe I misinterpreted him? If the mix required a radical change in sound at the chorus a nifty bit of re-arranging mics, guitars, room might have done the trick - and then splice later

    But that's not really the point as that can of course be done in the DAW, The point is to arrange the track using what often isnt considered the most powerful piece of gear in the studio ie Console and Brain/
    My fist attempt after so many tears is basic to say the least, but at times Ive been known to be flying across the room in a frenzy of excitement. How often does that ever happen with a Daw?

    Neither am I saying dont use your Daw. I love my Daw, but it has to work for me not the other way around. Eventually I will get enough cards so that each channel can be recorded individually in to its own track complete with human automation.

    Its all about the moment and capturing it and during the heat of those live console mixes theres things you just wouldnt think of when fiddling with automation dots or comping and pasting bits on your Daw
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    There is no arrangement on the sequencer time line, its simply a four or eight bar repeating loop and YOU create the arrangement in real time as you mix the track down isung the mixer as the means to achieve that goal.
    Which is why I couldn't listen for more than a couple of minutes. Nothing in that console can adequately diminish the monotony of hearing an 8 bar loop repeat for ten minutes. YMMV
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Welcome to the world of manual automation.

    I get where you're coming from. I agree with with Nobby in that after a few minutes, an 8 bar loop get boring.

    I think the experiment you did was successful though, in that it showed that, yes, you can do an arrangement via faders. So hats off for the experimentation and learning something new. Now try that with 30 or 40 bars worth of tracks and see how that goes.
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  7. #7
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    As I said this was my first attempt in ten years and the more I do it the better im going to get at it. And FYI I have mixed live of the console 36 tracks. There'''s also little subtle things going on there that dudes would spend hours automating. I wasnt going for the golden globe of music. Its just a little progressive doonwtempo number that believe it or not some DJs would play.
    Theres records out there that do zero for 8 minutes, thats the point of them.

    Christ, I dont know why I bothered. I thought posting it here would have some people come across with suggesstions and ideas.

    Clearly though, I know now that very few people worked like this. and I will continue to do it and hopefully have a wee sound of my own

    Netx track I will make it very exciting for you but please a little less negative.

    Oh, and there was no processing on that, just a little compression on the buss.
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    that believe it or not some DJs would play.
    This is not a criticism of your track (which I have not actually listened to yet), but the above statement is really meaningless - some DJs will play the most horribly boring shite for hours at a time.

    That's not a standard to shoot for.

    The idea is to create interesting, engaging shite.

    Don't get discouraged. Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    I love the idea of going back to your basics - roots. Just recently I had the same problem with mixing my band, partially because I didn't have an impartial ear. The gist of the story is that I attempted to mix in PT and then in reaper, and had great difficulty getting to first base. I transferred the whole thing to adats, and mixed in on my o1v (yup still digital) however the mixes came quickly and felt great. I just went for it, which is what your supposed to do when you mix, or atleast I feel that my best mixes are the ones that I just go for it. DAW or otherwise.

    that's my 2cents.
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  10. #10
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Which is why I couldn't listen for more than a couple of minutes. Nothing in that console can adequately diminish the monotony of hearing an 8 bar loop repeat for ten minutes. YMMV
    Your wrong and you clearly dont understand what a console can do. Im not saying for one moment my first effort in ten years is the academy award winner, but I have done arrangements on the console people couldn't believe.

    Who knows , I may post something else but after this bitter affair on this thread Im not sure I would bother.
  11. #11
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    This is not a criticism of your track (which I have not actually listened to yet), but the above statement is really meaningless - some DJs will play the most horribly boring shite for hours at a time.

    That's not a standard to shoot for.

    The idea is to create interesting, engaging shite.

    Don't get discouraged. Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy.

    Just keep working, it will come.
    I agree many DJs will play shite including my effort which isnt actually shite, its a thoughtful kind of progressive track. Geee, I made the parts up in about five minutes anyway. Im not discouraged at all though. I will keep practising and my skills will rise. Eventually I will become a Jedi Knight (again) making live arrangements on the console.

    I think some of you are missing the point though. THe very act of creating the arrangement via the faders, mutes, EQ, the touch and feel of the console, the connection to the music can really bring something to a track which cant be reproduced by planning it out on a Daw time line with added automation. And for sure thus translates to the audience, they dont know why but Ive been told many times my boring music always gets then back for more listening

    I'm not anti Daw for the record. I'm seeing the possibilities of fusing both methods together BUT importantly they will work for me, not the other way around.

    And again for the record this wont work with all genres. Your typical verse chorus type song may not be the best to try it with. But in saying that Ive actually done that to.
  12. #12
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    OK, heres an album that is almost completely done live on a cheap console Mackie Sr24. I uploaded it to bandcamp to simply give it away free. Sadly though they stopped the free download thing and you have to pay as little as 0.001 cent to download the entire album or if your cheap you can just listen. Now, you tell me some o fthose tracks are meaningless, without emotion etc. They are all made with loops. When you hear a drum fill its me fading in that channel quickly. Just after that album I stopped doing the live on the console mixes. Big mistake in my opinion

    http://chriscowie.bandcamp.com/album/best-behaviour
  13. #13
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Your wrong and you clearly dont understand what a console can do. Im not saying for one moment my first effort in ten years is the academy award winner, but I have done arrangements on the console people couldn't believe.

    Who knows , I may post something else but after this bitter affair on this thread Im not sure I would bother.
    If this weren't so snarky it would be funny in its pure idiocy.

    The arrangement of a song is defined as who plays what part and where they play it.

    What you're describing is mixing a song. Not arranging.

    So to avoid the semantic pissing match that is to come, call it whatever you want, do it however you want. Just understand that the REST of us are going to consider what you're doing "single pass mixes" rather than "arranging". But for the love of God please, when people don't respond orgasmically to your stellar idea of "arranging via faders" (a.k.a. "mixing") then don't be such a whiny little cunt, ok? It's unbecoming.
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  14. #14
    Bassist/struggling pizza boy! Thinks Ringo's wife is a famous Classical Composer
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    If this weren't so snarky it would be funny in its pure idiocy.

    The arrangement of a song is defined as who plays what part and where they play it.

    Ive played all the parts, whats your point
    What you're describing is mixing a song. Not arranging.

    No,All the parts are played and recorded. There in a loop, its then up to me to decided when to bring them in and out in real time as I mix down to stereo. Yes its arranging, but not any way you have ever done before, or thought of, thats clear
    So to avoid the semantic pissing match that is to come, call it whatever you want, do it however you want. Just understand that the REST of us are going to consider what you're doing "single pass mixes" rather than "arranging". But for the love of God please, when people don't respond orgasmically to your stellar idea of "arranging via faders" (a.k.a. "mixing") then don't be such a whiny little cunt, ok? It's unbecoming.

    Hmmm nice guy arnt you. Big man behind his computer


    And again your wrong. YOU CAN arrange a song in real time using all the consoles features Ive done it on countless records which have been released. A good bit more than than a simple one pass trial.

    Im not expecting people to orgasmically throw one out at what Im saying. Im merely posting this here because I thought at least you guys would get the concept. I guess Im wrong, or your all so stuck in the past and cant see any further from A to B. Get it in to your thick skullls the console is probably the most powerful tool in the studio. Its isnt merely a thing to balance and eq levels of separate instruments. In the right hands its a fully fledged musical instrument. Every time you perform a live arrangement on the console it comes out differently. No matter how many times you play your Daws arrangement t will come out exactly the same. BUT the BIG difference is YOU FEEL IT when you do it live. DO you hear me??? YOU FEEL IT as you mix to stereo track. Your not distracted by the sound of the hi hat being a little sharp or the kik not being loud enough, you fix it there and then as you create the arrangement and 9/10 no one notices it. Well, in other words its called dynamics, no bad thing is it.

    And you know what. Its exciting doing it. Sitting there copying, pasting , editing...well I would be as well as working on a spreadsheet.

    all I was looking for was a discussion, not a crucifixion and I had wondered for sometime if this was common. I dont think it is, so as far as Im concerned its a skill that coule be utilised to give some peoplepecially in the days of DAws where multiple parts can be joined together an edge. NO worries I wont be hanging around to long.

    At least with GS theres sometimes a bit of enthusiasm for an idea.
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Your wrong and you clearly dont understand what a console can do.
    The word is you're.

    I understand that a console can't make utterly monotonous loops interesting, something that seems to escape your limited sensibilities.

    Im not saying for one moment my first effort in ten years is the academy award winner, but I have done arrangements on the console people couldn't believe.
    Do you mean unbelievably good or unbelievably bad?

    Who knows , I may post something else but after this bitter affair on this thread Im not sure I would bother.


    If you believe in what you're doing you ought not let a couple of negative opinions deter you. I've posted my music on message boards and trust me, not everyone likes my stuff. There is no universally acceptable standard for music.

    You can be a sensitive artist but you must develop a thick skin when it comes to criticism.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    To me, it appears as if you are neither mixing nor arranging the tune. You are playing your mixer like a synthesizer/sample player - the keys just have a different shape.
    Intellectually perfect only means there's nothing wrong. To me, overproduction means throwing away what's right in a herculean effort to achieve nothing wrong. (Bob Olhsson)
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    [U]Get it in to your thick skullls the console is probably the most powerful tool in the studio. Its isnt merely a thing to balance and eq levels of separate instruments. In the right hands its a fully fledged musical instrument.
    Get it through your thick skull that you don't actually know anything about music.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    I've seen 5 digit people standing/dancing for quite a while listening to music, which to me appeared quite like the Best Behaviour stuff, Chris linked to. I didn't like the specific act (I prefer Chris' stuff over the gig at Orange Stage at Roskilde Festival). But I'd be a bit stupid to say it was bad music.

    What kind of microphones do you use Nobby?
    Intellectually perfect only means there's nothing wrong. To me, overproduction means throwing away what's right in a herculean effort to achieve nothing wrong. (Bob Olhsson)
  19. #19
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    But I'd be a bit stupid to say it was bad music.
    Not stupid, just opinionated.

    What kind of microphones do you use Nobby?
    Mostly moving coil and condenser mics.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
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    Default Re: The Art OF Performace micing - Arrange the song via the console

    Here's a suggestion: Connect the DAW commands to MIDI drumpads and arrange with an electric drumset by controlling the volume via the velocity level you hit the pads with.

    Charlie pedal can select a channel and kick toggles mute.

    I'm sure nobody would understand the pure genius behind doing that though.

    - I fear anybody worried about not sounding like themselves is somebody who really doesn't want to sound like themselves. - Bob Olhsson



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