Thread: Focal Press Author Ethan Winer in TapeOp

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  1. #201
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    The very first couple of words show exactly your problem: you're obviously too old to learn anything concerning interaction with other people. You, as a guest, join the party by jumping through the door.
    Don't know Ethan but I've seen such behaviour. I live in a community where we regularly have assemblys with 40-60 people. One guy keeps stepping on other people's toes and provokes very intense reactions. It distracts the group, lessens focus on things that are important. Whether it is attention-seeking or masochistic, it seems purposeful and it's a pain in the ass. False claims are in that repertoire, too. No intentions of changing this behaviour have ever been successful. Politically correct as we are, he doesn't get kicked out either. He does get bullied though, sometimes more sometimes less. It's very odd.
    ....we're so happy, it's unbelievable. The drums rock, the guitars are freaking amazing and once we touch up the vocals this is money. It sounds better unmixed than our last records masters!!!

    We're going to have to get an OMF file so our drummer can mix this like our last record.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!
  2. #202
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    So my advice to Mr. Winer?

    Just be yourself.
    Somehow I don't see this improving things much.
  3. #203
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Somehow I don't see this improving things much.
    But I cannot think of anything more entertaining...










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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Here's to a crack in every pot.

    A Soundblaster in every acoustically treated garage.

    SM.
    Kill me. No really. Just fucking kill me.
  5. #205
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Here's to a crack in every pot.

    A Soundblaster in every acoustically treated garage.

    SM.
    A Rane DJ mixer in series with every Mackie VLZ...

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - COMING NOVEMBER 2014!





  6. #206
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    This is Ethan's chance to show he is deserving of being re-instated here. Somehow I doubt he can make two posts in a row that demonstrate he is ... but such is my decision for the moment.
    Oh great prophet of the black and white religion there's a Lotto prize about to go around these parts; can you PM me the winning numbers, I'll be sure to share the millions with you in the form of Avalons and Shure betas.

    The only reason you won't agree to that is for fear of not being able to refute something I might say, as has happened many times in the past.
    Emphasis mine. Aside from the "fear" pretense and telepathic thinking, this presents a serious fundamental problem to the Knowledge Base: that statement highlighted is not true (obv. to most but still). It is presented as true. From an information science perspective this is toxic.

    Ultimately I think this person has a knack for trolling, specifically by bringing forward arguments of Rhetoric itself. The subjective nature of Quality for example. The definition of fact, proof, sufficiency. In short, at best it's a good way of not getting anything done or discussed. At worst, it allows for the buildup of precedents for false statements, themselves (the precedents) false.

    In other words, water is wet.
  7. #207
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    In other words, water is wet.
    but is it the wettest? can you show me, with proof, how water is either more or less wet than say, diet coke? please show your work.
  8. #208
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Heeeeeeyyyy. You're talking about me, aren't you?
    You're a sharp one.


    Tue, Apr.17.2012 - Allen Farmelo wrote:
    Ok, hold on a second. I feel like a flame war started in another prominent forum has been dragged over here. I'm not any referee or anything, but maybe we can get away from old battles and keep the discussion more open and exploratory!


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  9. #209
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    You're a sharp one.


    Tue, Apr.17.2012 - Allen Farmelo wrote:
    Ok, hold on a second. I feel like a flame war started in another prominent forum has been dragged over here. I'm not any referee or anything, but maybe we can get away from old battles and keep the discussion more open and exploratory!


    If only...
    It ain't a flame war on my end. I prefer to debate cleanly. It's Ethan that turns everything into personal attacks. All I do is use Ethan's own words against him. Somehow to Ethan, that's an insult. Perplexing, really.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - COMING NOVEMBER 2014!





  10. #210
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Hasn't Ethan always maintained that he played no part in having certain members of this forum restricted from his "tests" on GS?

    Well, here's the proof that he asked (and received) said consideration:

    Message from Jules

    And in case it gets yanked, here it is verbatim:

    Originally Posted by Originally Posted by DanDan
    A converter test was botched by Ethan clicking a wrong SoundCard pref. He admitted it at the time. We all make mistakes. Pity someone didn't use their ears to judge! Again, it was the reaction which was problematic. There is no example of misbehaviour by Winer.
    Originally Posted by Reply from Jules

    Excuse me, but I went out on a big limb to let Ethan run that test, I allowed him to hand pick people to be excluded (censored I think is the word folks here would prefer) from contributing to that thread so as to allow him an 'open road' to proceed with the test and then look what happened! For someone walking an alleged scientific line wouldn't you call a failed test with such a big build up "misbehaviour"? Come on! You can't have it both ways! The many complaints about it became as problematic as some of the bitter political threads we used to have to deal with, just one more example of an 'its not my fault, its everyone else that is wrong' syndrome. Thats the pity.
    Note: emphasis added
    The emotionally and tonally deaf cannot hear the important things and never will. They will scream to the heavens the rest of us are wrong and produce useless papers to prove their point.
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  11. #211
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    For those of you who haven't been following this episode of The Winer Saga, this is a reply to Ethan that I moved from the Tape Op Blog, so as to not wear out my welcome.

    Originally Posted by Ethan Winer on Tape Op blog
    Originally Posted by Mixerman on Tape Op Blog
    Explaining your monitoring chain isn't an insult.
    I'm certain that's how you intended it.
    Do you have scientific proof of how I intended it?

    Heres my analog monitoring chain: 24 dig outs from comp to Radar, 22 analog outs from Radar to Dangerous 2-Buss, 2 out from D2B to SSL G384 to Dangerous Monitor, to HD1s.

    Here's my digital 2-track chain: 2 dig out to Radar to Dangerous Monitor to HD1s.

    Now, you may laugh at, facepalm, and dis my monitoring chain with impunity if you feel that I'm being unfair about yours. Honestly, it won't faze me in the least. My monitoring chain is bullet proof. You'd have a difficult time finding a professional who would criticize it, even if they preferred something else.

    You seem quite pleased that Mr. Barefoot has praised your article. How about we invite him here to talk about the quality of your monitoring chain? I would very much like to see if he believes your chain is adequate for critical listening.

    Originally Posted by Ethan on Tape Op blog
    Originally Posted by mixerman on Tape Op blog
    you can't critically listen to audio unless you have accurate monitoring. Your chain alone leaves much to be desired. You're using a Soundblaster converter
    First, I do not use a SoundBlaster sound card for monitoring. I've told you this a dozen times, and yet you still repeat that. Allen is correct, you are bringing friction into this discussion in part by continuing to stuff words into my mouth. Until my last computer died six months ago I used an M-Audio Delta 66 as my main playback. My new PC doesn't have the old style PCI slots, so I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 USB sound card. I do have a SoundBlaster card, but I use it (rarely) only to edit SoundFonts.
    Right. You've told me a dozen times. If your story didn't constantly change, it'd be a little easier to follow. So and M-audio Delta 66 card. It's still a card. It's not a professional grade stereo converter.

    So, how about you write to your buddy Mr. Barefoot, and ask him to tell us all how great your monitoring chain is, and how it would provide you all the transparency necessary to make critical judgments in audio.

    Here's your monitoring chain:

    An MAudio Delta 66 into a Mackie 1202 mixer into a Rane "DJ" mixer, to JBL 4430s "bi-amped at 1,200 Hz using a Rane crossover, which feeds a pair of Crown PowerBase amps totaling just over 1 KW"

    Although Mr. Barefoot is a fan of yours I'm sure he can give an unbiased critique of your monitoring chain. Don't you?

    Originally Posted by Ethan on Tape Op blog
    Your problem is you dismiss perfectly competent pro grade equipment as sub-par with no evidence. Yes, gear with high distortion can indeed mask detail. However, many people overlook that the distortion of even very good loudspeakers is ten times higher than that of most electronic gear. If you have evidence that my Mackie and Rane equipment masks detail more than, say, going through multiple stages in an SSL console, now's the time to show it.
    Going through an SSL console? Or going through the monitoring section of an SSL console? Because those are entirely different signal paths. I mean, I'm just a dumbass who listens with his feelings. You're the one whose the audio expert. You don't know that?

    If you're so talented at measuring distortion levels with your equipment, take a day and electronically compare them. Any SSL you like. Even an E series. Then get back to me. (I won't hold my breath).

    Originally Posted by Ethan Winer on Tape Op blog
    But I know you have only beliefs, no evidence.
    I have experience and a basis of comparison. My experience says a Mackie 1202 adds a horrific and audible distortion. I determined that without any measuring equipment other than my ears and my experience. You have all the electronic measuring equipment you need, and you have no idea what you're doing to your audio and how it's affecting critical listening. So, whose way of measuring is more accurate and/or useful?

    Seriously, I want anyone willing to defend Ethan's monitoring chain to do so here. Get me ONE professional recording engineer to come here and defend that chain. Anyone. Start with Mr. Barefoot, and then when he kindly passes, you go find someone else.

    Just get me one testimonial from someone with a discography as to how your monitoring chain is wholly acceptable for critical listening.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    Zen and the Art of Recording - COMING NOVEMBER 2014!





  12. #212
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    On some level I feel sorry for Ethan because he's getting ganged up on. But yet, on another level.....he keeps talking and putting himself into these situations.....
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  13. #213
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    On some level I feel sorry for Ethan because he's getting ganged up on. But yet, on another level.....he keeps talking and putting himself into these situations.....
    well to be fair, this is a forum for knob turners.

    Ethan is a button pusher.

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    One thing I've been meaning to ask for some time, about converters:

    People who are seasoned pros obviously hear things that people like myself - who are at the beginning and make 70% of their living in other fields of work - can't hear.

    To be honest, I don't really know if I can hear the difference between two converters. I can hear some difference in preamps and I can hear the noise on a low level mixer, but all the comparisons I've heard between converters have been rather lost on me. Sure, I can hear some very slight differences but nothing I would probably notice, if I weren't looking for it.

    Apart from the fact that many of these comparisons may be a little dodgy or may just involve the whole mix going through as opposed to stacked tracks, I still feel that I probably can't hear THAT much of a difference.

    So my question is:

    Is it normal that my ear hasn't developed enough to hear this?

    What is the entity of this difference? I mean, so far my clients seem pleased. But should I be worrying about this when I buy a bigger audio interface?

    Or should I wait until the difference becomes clearer?

    Mixerman, In Zen you mention that tape will radically change the sound of a mix but also that if you are just starting out, there's no need to run out and buy a machine, so I'm wondering if this applies to converters and other chain elements... and to what degree?
    Last edited by HalfBlood; April 18th, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
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  15. #215
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Strange...Ethan is silent here when his membership is re-instated at GS...

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7793531-post44.html
    The emotionally and tonally deaf cannot hear the important things and never will. They will scream to the heavens the rest of us are wrong and produce useless papers to prove their point.
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  16. #216
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    In Zen you mention that tape will radically change the sound of a mix but also that if you are just starting out, there's no need to run out and buy a machine, so I'm wondering if this applies to converters and other chain elements... and to what degree?
    Everything has an effect on everything.

    Looking back through my own auditory experiences, I'd say that yes - listening skills develop over time, given sufficient exposure to various sources and pathways.

    One of the most eerie experiences I had just recently - my monitor amp started to pack a sad, very gradually. Something very strange has happened to it. I'd been working on a track and I was getting frustrated with it because after an hour or so of work I'd start to feel repelled and confused by the sound. I sought an opinion on this and got told that I'd lost my fucking mind or gone deaf.

    Grabbed another pair of monitors (active) and switched between them and the passives via the fucked up amplifier and the difference would leave your jaw on the floor. Anyone would hear it, though perhaps not identify just what it was.

    When I heard my mix though the monitors that were un-fucked, it was unquestionably skewed and I felt a combination of embarassment and relief.

    This said, I can remember a time in my life where I may have interpreted the difference between the two monitoring paths as one being darker than the other, but now I recognize them as having phase irregularities as well as spectral irregularities - the only way I can know this is by experience. And with THAT said - this experience still didn't save my ass from the frog-in-the-pot situation of a slowly decaying amplifier

    And to directly address the quote above, yes - converters will affect the sound, as will your monitors, amplification, attenuation and so forth. More importantly, they will affect your decisions and ultimately they will affect translation outside the mix environment.

    Don't be daunted by these truths though - I mean, Mixerman's monitoring environment is one to be truly envied, and one that requires significant investment - so long as you stay steered toward gear with a good reputation and take opportunities to hear other gear and other environments you'll fair well.

  17. #217
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    To be honest, I don't really know if I can hear the difference between two converters.
    Work every day for a month with some good ones.

    Have somebody swap them out for some junk.

    Keep every single other thing in the room the same.

    You'll be hating yer life.

    I assure you.

    SM.
    Kill me. No really. Just fucking kill me.
  18. #218
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    Have somebody swap them out for some junk.
    I'd recommend Ethan for this particular task.
  19. #219
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp



    wtf do I know...I hit mixes with sticks
  20. #220
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    Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

    To be honest, I don't really know if I can hear the difference between two converters. I can hear some difference in preamps and I can hear the noise on a low level mixer, but all the comparisons I've heard between converters have been rather lost on me. Sure, I can hear some very slight differences but nothing I would probably notice, if I weren't looking for it.

    Apart from the fact that many of these comparisons may be a little dodgy or may just involve the whole mix going through as opposed to stacked tracks, I still feel that I probably can't hear THAT much of a difference.

    So my question is:

    Is it normal that my ear hasn't developed enough to hear this?

    What is the entity of this difference? I mean, so far my clients seem pleased. But should I be worrying about this when I buy a bigger audio interface?

    Or should I wait until the difference becomes clearer?
    How do you compare the sounds of two converters?

    Just in case, I think the often mentioned double blind AB test is just nonsense.

    Try listening to one converter for at least 5 Min. really in deep, then make a short break about 10 Sec. and then listen to the other converter.... that works way better I think.


    Cheers!

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