Thread: "Internet Governance" discussion

Results 1 to 20 of 115

  1. #1
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,592
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default "Internet Governance" discussion

    Big Tech seems to always want to conflate “the ability to innovate and create" with "the ability to steal and profit from the work of others".

    I'm not sure how big a deal Netmundial is, but I think this is worth doing.

    From Copyright Alliance:

    April 18, 2014

    Dear Copyright Advocates,


    Hope this email finds you well.


    Discussions are ongoing about the future of the Internet, and it's important that artists' voices are heard.


    NetMundial, a global multistakeholder process, is meeting Monday, April 21 to discuss a Draft Outcome Document on Internet Governance. That document, available at ;http://document.netmundial.br/ shows no trace of recognition of the importance of intellectual property protection for a healthy Internet ecosystem. Paragraph 13, for example, says:

    “The ability to innovate and create has been at the heart of the remarkable growth of the Internet and it has brought great value to the global society. For the preservation of its dynamism, Internet governance must continue to allow permissionless innovation through an enabling Internet environment.”

    Another aspect of the draft that deserves comment is paragraph 2 through 8, dealing with Human Rights, which lists several rights spelled out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but omits any reference to Article 27(2), guaranteeing authors and creators the right to benefit from their moral and material rights of authorship.

    The draft is currently open to public comment.

    We encourage you to post a brief comment on the document, which stresses the need to recognize intellectual property protection and the rule of law generally as key ingredients of sound Internet governance. Here is a suggested comment that you can post: ;We think a strong vibrant internet is core to the future of independent artists but that all creative and innovative people need to respect one another's creative output and the concept of permissionless innovation rejects this notion of respect or you can write something in your own words.


    Public comments must be received by Monday, April 21, 8 am EST, to help shape the final document. We think it’s vital that artists and creators speak up during this process.


    To post a comment, go to http://document.netmundial.br/, click on “Internet Governance Principles”, scroll down to the paragraph on which you wish to comment, and click on the comment balloon on the right. You will need to provide your name (which could include affiliation) and e-mail address.


    Please let us know if you have any questions.

    Thank you!

    Best,

    Cecile Remington
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  2. #2
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,130
    Rep Power 536871376

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    Wow, what a massive rationalization for a "right" to stealing "content" and for protecting the biggest corporations.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  3. #3
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,592
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    I left a couple of pointed comments.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  4. #4
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
    Join Date Jul 2011
    Location Wellington NZ
    Posts 831
    Rep Power 469762088

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    Wow, what a massive rationalization for a "right" to stealing "content" and for protecting the biggest corporations.
    For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the ever-increasing copyright terms and maximalisation being pushed by the music and film industries.
  5. #5
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,592
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the ever-increasing copyright terms and maximalisation being pushed by the music and film industries.
    That's often used by people grasping for any excuse, however absurd, to rationalize copyright violations.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  6. #6
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,130
    Rep Power 536871376

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    There have been no "ever increasing copyright terms." That's bullsh!t.

    This is consumer tech industry propaganda. The only increases have been in a few localities to bring them into conformance with the rest of the world so that enforcement becomes practical. Obviously Google wants to avoid any possibility of enforcement.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  7. #7
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,766
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    There have been no "ever increasing copyright terms." That's bullsh!t.

    This is consumer tech industry propaganda. The only increases have been in a few localities to bring them into conformance with the rest of the world so that enforcement becomes practical. Obviously Google wants to avoid any possibility of enforcement.
    Don should know that by now. It's been explained to him often enough.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  8. #8
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
    Join Date Jul 2011
    Location Wellington NZ
    Posts 831
    Rep Power 469762088

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    Don should know that by now. It's been explained to him often enough.
    You're quite right. So maybe you should think about why I said it anyway.
  9. #9
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,766
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    You're quite right. So maybe you should think about why I said it anyway.
    So why did you say it anyway when you know it's wrong?

    Please enlighten us.

    Why should companies who had no stake in the creation of a work have the "right" to rake in all the profits from that work to the detriment of the actual creator, his heirs, and those who bankrolled the creative effort?

    And for that matter why should any Tom, Dick, and Harry be able to appropriate it for shitty "derivative works" like mashups and advertising without paying?

    Write your own goddamn music if you think you're an "artist". I'm sorry, but audio decoupage is not an art and it's not being creative.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  10. #10
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
    Join Date Jul 2011
    Location Wellington NZ
    Posts 831
    Rep Power 469762088

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    That's often used by people grasping for any excuse, however absurd, to rationalize copyright violations.
    Yes, it is. So?
  11. #11
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
    Join Date Jul 2011
    Location Wellington NZ
    Posts 831
    Rep Power 469762088

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    There have been no "ever increasing copyright terms." That's bullsh!t.
    ...
    No increases? You (should) know darn well the term in the US has increased by stages from 14 years to life plus 70.
  12. #12
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
    Join Date Jul 2011
    Location Wellington NZ
    Posts 831
    Rep Power 469762088

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    So why did you say it anyway when you know it's wrong?
    I didn't say it was wrong. I agreed it's been explained to me often enough.

    Why should companies who had no stake in the creation of a work have the "right" to rake in all the profits from that work to the detriment of the actual creator, his heirs, and those who bankrolled the creative effort?
    Do the creators have a right to a share of the profit made by UPS when they deliver a CD to your door? Is it UPS's job to open every package they deliver to determine if the contents were illegally obtained?

    For the rest, I fail to see the relevance of "derivative works" to the discussion.
  13. #13
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,592
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    So the argument sounds just as absurd here.

    No increases? You (should) know darn well the term in the US has increased by stages from 14 years to life plus 70.
    Who does that hurt? What hardship does that create?

    I didn't say it was wrong. I agreed it's been explained to me often enough.
    It certainly is taking a long time to sink in.

    Do the creators have a right to a share of the profit made by UPS when they deliver a CD to your door?
    No, UPS makes money by delivering packages. Not by stealing them and fencing them for pennies on the dollar.

    What is the analogy? What entity is UPS supposed to represent in whatever comparison it is that you're trying to make?
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  14. #14
    Joan River's boytoy FBI Agent searching hard-drives
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Bellows Falls, Vermont
    Posts 1,470
    Rep Power 536871088

    Clown Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    One thing I've noticed is that, when it's possible to repackage stuff and put your 'spin' on it (or just your name! But certainly 'remixing' with an eye to the trendy) you get a huge advantage over people who have to make stuff from scratch.

    The faster and more meaninglessly culture 'iterates' over popular things, the better you do, because you can take more shots with less preparation. And you CAUSE culture to iterate more quickly and more meaninglessly by doing this.

    Jaron Lanier's big long talk below goes into many thoughts on how the freedom and un-attribution of the internet's led to centralizing of power and made it more difficult to do things, rather than less (in the sense of managing any sort of extended project requiring actual investment). It's like turning all human accomplishment over to either those who have no stake, or nothing to lose.



    Of course I always have to throw out a counter-argument…



    This is the band Oasis, combined with drums by Gregory Cylvester Coleman by the jungle EDM producer u4ia. You might not recognize the drummer's name like you would Steve Gadd, but you should because it's him playing the 'Amen break', and all that drum insanity is from one five and a half second break in an old B-side. Even the huge atonal 'honks' that sometimes happen are drums triggered at inhuman speed so they're bass notes. The video is from yet another person, who didn't know u4ia, Coleman or Oasis.

    The result bears little resemblance to Oasis, Coleman, or anything else, but I still think it's awesome.

    (Futurama sampled Coleman, too, but u4ia actually uses the break as 'notes' to produce an utterly different 'melody', which is more than Futurama did—and u4ia is the outsider without resources, Futurama could have paid for its usage)

    Hell, the Beatles and George Martin tricked orchestral musicians playing the climax of 'A Day In The Life'. They were supposed to be paid more for doing repeated takes all of which were used. Martin and the Beatles told them the takes were being erased, on purpose. The Beatles sampled Eric Cook on 'Bungalow Bill', who played the little flamenco riff on the Mellotron. Nobody thought twice about paying that guy, though people objected to the Mellotron for the act of replacing otherwise needed live musicians. Even his name is almost impossible to dig up, though the fact that it's a Mellotron is widely known. The guy who played it? Nobody cares. Let's say he improvised that riff, composed it. How much is he owed for singlehandedly composing a few seconds of the Beatles White Album?

    Theft of musical work is a very interesting topic, but it's real complicated because of things like this. Best to look for workarounds in favor of getting more good music made, rather than trying to pick who is blameless, because the latter is impossible.
  15. #15
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,130
    Rep Power 536871376

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    How about allowing great young musicians to iterate by financially empowering them to develop new music? I'm sorry, the bottom-feeding "creative" junk yard business model that recycles other peoples' investments is bullsh!t right along with the "everybody does it" arguments.

    I also don't believe culture has really been moved in a couple decades. That's what's wrong and one of the biggest elephants in the room. I fear "successful" music is lost in an extended "Frankie Avalon" period of spruced-up '80s musical ideas having an ever decreasing cultural message.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  16. #16
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 979
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    Any profession without the financial network to allow full-time employment will lead to a degradation of craft, loss of skill and the creation of an amateur culture.

    It doesn't matter how much a person loves making music, if they have to work a day job they will not realise the potential of their talent.
  17. #17
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 979
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    Jaron Lanier's big long talk...
    That was very good, and the Horatio Alger myth is a good analogy.

    This is the band Oasis, combined with drums by Gregory Cylvester Coleman by the jungle EDM producer u4ia.
    That was an awful example of hammering a square peg into a round hole, rhythmically speaking.
  18. #18
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 979
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    I also don't believe culture has really been moved in a couple decades. That's what's wrong and one of the biggest elephants in the room. I fear "successful" music is lost in an extended "Frankie Avalon" period of spruced-up '80s musical ideas having an ever decreasing cultural message.
    I think it's more the case that culture moved at breakneck speed in the first half (edit: and-a-bit) of the 20th Century, particularly 1945-1965 (musically, the time it took for the modernist avant garde to turn into the post-modernist avant garde, and for that to begin to filter into popular culture). The deceleration appears as stagnation.
  19. #19
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,130
    Rep Power 536871376

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    From 1945 to 1965 it was not uncommon for high school kids to earn the equivalent of a week's minimum wage playing in a band one or two nights a week. One could also go out and hear great live music for under $5.00. This was the garden of creativity in front of audiences and subject to their feedback that grew the music of the next twenty years.

    A huge proportion of the people recording rock and roll were under age 20 and almost nobody other than the suits was over 25. I honestly believe we are talking about starvation as opposed to stagnation. Music went from the best of young talent and a very real path out of poverty to an upper middle-class avocation for the few who can afford to play gigs without being a star.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  20. #20
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,592
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: "Internet Governance" discussion

    The Beatles sampled Eric Cook on 'Bungalow Bill', who played the little flamenco riff on the Mellotron. Nobody thought twice about paying that guy
    George Martin got that from the EMI archives. Most likely he was paid by the hour which is how EMI paid session players. That would be a "work For Hire".

    In that case, it's possible that EMI didn't think twice about paying him; They thought once about it once, and paid him.

    How much is he owed for singlehandedly composing a few seconds of the Beatles White Album?
    Let's stick to songs instead of an 8 second guitar riff. I don't think the minor scale is copyrightable. Nor are any chords. Tell all your tech buddies
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts