Thread: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

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  1. #1
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    Default Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    Hi Folks!

    I recently switched to a Logic/Raven MTi/MacMini Setup. Came from a PC with Samplitude - liked the program, hated the OS. Felt more like "Mixing in Excel", so something had to change.

    All in all, I'm very happy with my decision so far, but came up with a potential show-stopper/deal-breaker scenario.

    Try this:
    - 1 Audio track that sends to Bus 1 with unity gain.
    - Audio Track and Bus 1 go to Stereo Output.

    Is it just me or does it phase like hell?
    I initially tried to cancel the audio track with it's bus copy by reversing polarity with a gain plug. No luck, they don't cancel. Sometimes doing this with Bus1 gives different results than doing it with Bus2 - all other things being equal!

    This first occurred to me while adjusting a simple reverb on a vocal. I happened to have some dry signal in the reverb and it would result in a slight slap-back, so I investigated further.

    Delay compensation is set to "all" in the preferences.

    I realize this might have something to do with Otek's ADC thread here.

    Is this a known issue?
    I hope the fault's on my part as I really grew to like Logic

    Cheerio
    Frank

    SOLVED:
    I ran through the OSX maintenance routine and reset p-ram. Now it works as it should. Weird but glad it works
    Last edited by Drummerboy; December 7th, 2014 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Problem solved. Kinda.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    It happens to me as well from time to time, most noticeably when I'm setting up NYC compression: huge, audible notches. Don't remember where I saw it but it seems that it can happen if you try to add the bus and FX while playing back audio, and not when there's no playback. I haven't confirmed it but I am paying a little more attention to my own workflow these days.

    When I encountered it lately, I stopped playback, created a new bus in the mixer window, changed any sends on the old bus to the new bus, moved the FX from the old bus to the new bus, and monitored for continued flanging. If it persisted I tried again with a new open bus; if it didn't, I regarded the problem as fixed.

    When I was researching it for myself, some people claim this doesn't happen, ever, and you can't get them to believe it's happening to you. Shrug.

    Good thought about resetting the PRAM though. Haven't done that lately.
  3. #3
    Frustrated Chick Rock singer...now doing jazz standards poorly! Yknee cnut
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    The PRAM worked on the MBP at home.
    I'm now in the studio and back to no-cancellation:
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    Also strange how one track is peaking at -8.0 and the other at -8.2 although the send is at 0.0

    Maybe I should get an apple support ticket and wait for Pro XII or so

    Now shit just got weirder after I re-opened logic:
    I tried your suggestion and stopped playback before creating the bus and it cancelled.
    Tried it again while audio was playing and it - again - cancelled.

    I wonder where there's logic inside logic. At least it looks good
    Drummers perspective or death. -Slippy
  4. #4
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    It happens in Sonar X3 as well - if while the track is playing you add an insert, create a send, route something to a different bus or do anything involving look ahead then delay compensation goes mad and things will be out of time. Stopping playback and restarting always seems to sort it out though.
  5. #5
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    If you're playing and insert an effect or create a bus, Logic can't calculate it on the fly. This has to be related to their audio engine. Which bothers me. The audio engine that is.

    I just stop playback and restart and its back in sync. I've not had it stay broken.
    Mike
  6. #6
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    See, I'm still on 9.1.x. Maybe the add-on-the-fly thing is working as designed.. but it appears that in 9, the issue doesn't correct itself with a stop and restart as it seems to with mmcginnis and 10.

    Again, shrug.
  7. #7
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    On my system, it takes a couple of seconds for Logic to update, but the ADC works. Mostly. Unless I'm doing side chaining stuff.

    Some Logic plugins have a selectable latency compensation in spite of your DAW settings, like the Space Designer:

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    otek
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    I tried to provoke Logic into the behavior described by the OP. Note: I am in 9.1.8.

    I loaded up a drum stem in a new session, and hit play. During playback, I then created an aux send, turned it up to unity, and proceeded to instantiate various plugins on the bus, without stopping once.

    Here are my findings:

    1) The empty aux presented no phase problems. Buses, outputs and channels show identical level readings.

    2) Waves and Slate plugins (REDD, TG12345, VBC, VCC, etc.) presented no phase problems, but there was obviously an audible "hickup" when the plugin was instantiated or removed.

    3) The Logic AD Limiter, PSP MixPressor/MixSaturator, Airwindows Sample Delay and a few others displayed various phase/echo problems. Bypassing the plugins did not fix it, however removing the plugins obviously did.

    4) The FabFilter ProQ and ProQ-2 did not display any phase anomalies, until i set them to Linear Phase Mode, at which point they behaved the same as plugins under #3.

    5) Hitting stop and then play fixed the problem in all above cases except the FabFilter EQ.


    A couple of other interesting observations:

    1) Logic's "sample accurate" volume automation has a latency of about 180 samples (Logic 9.1.8, 44.1 KHz), or 4 ms. under optimal conditions - one track/file, no plugins, nothing else in the project.

    2) Using certain latency-heavy plugins further screws with Logic's ADC. For example, inserting a FabFilter EQ in Linear Phase Mode makes volume and other automation moves sound completely different.

    3) Sidechaining becomes a game of individual track delays if one uses any plugins with any kind of latency - anywhere.


    otek
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    On my system, it takes a couple of seconds for Logic to update, but the ADC works. Mostly. Unless I'm doing side chaining stuff.

    Some Logic plugins have a selectable latency compensation in spite of your DAW settings, like the Space Designer:


    otek
    Ah, I wonder if this was causing fits when trying to loop through during recording. I was trying to generate a verb for a singer and it was putting the whole recording out of sync!
    Mike
  10. #10
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    I can't say that I've been experiencing this. I'm notorious for adding plug-ins on the fly and Logic didn't hiccup or phase out. I'm wondering if it could be something to do with the fact that I use a high sample buffer setting these days (latency hasn't been an issue since moving over to the UAD Apollo)? Mind you, UAD stuff does produce a noticeable gap at the beginning when inserting or turning on plug-ins, then everything is fine again.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    I can't say that I've been experiencing this. I'm notorious for adding plug-ins on the fly and Logic didn't hiccup or phase out.
    I should add that when I removed and re-instantiated the plugins, the phasing/echo problems in some cases did not reappear. My initial experiment was with a completely new session only.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  12. #12
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    If anything, there is one set of plug-ins that I do have this type of issue with: DCAM Dynamics and Bloom (both made by FXPansion). Although, it is more prevalent with Dynamics since Bloom is a delay FX and dialing it out works, but that's more like a "take this pill and pretend the problem doesn't exist" type of remedy.

    Believe it or not, I got the "people don't normally use it this way" response when I told them I was trying to do parallel compression on two aux channels and the phasing was noticeable. SERIOUSLY?? That's was like Steve Jobs telling every iPhone 4 user that they were holding it wrong when they clearly had an antenna grounding issue.

    I wouldn't even dignify it with a response. I just moved away from those as quick as I could and thankfully found better stuff that works how I want it to.

    jord
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    I should add that when I removed and re-instantiated the plugins, the phasing/echo problems in some cases did not reappear. My initial experiment was with a completely new session only.


    otek
    Maybe Logic sets some sort of "maximum delay compensation" based on what plugins are already instantiated and cannot grow it on the fly. Also it might have a maximum value Logic can compensate for, hence its inability to compensate for the FabFilter in linear phase mode...?
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    That's more of a case of AU's not readily revealing or reporting their delay compensation value to Logic when instantiated on the fly. Thus, Logic doesn't know what to calculate at that time.

    jord
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    That's more of a case of AU's not readily revealing or reporting their delay compensation value to Logic when instantiated on the fly. Thus, Logic doesn't know what to calculate at that time.
    And as Otek reports, and this has been my experience too, in some cases it works and sometimes it doesn't. I've closed and reopened the session, and sometimes it fixes the issue, and sometimes it doesn't. If it worked, I stopped there; if it didn't, I re-instantiate and reset the plugs, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If it worked, I stopped there; if it didn't, I deleted the plugs and the bus, created a new bus, instantiated the plugs at the new bus.. and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

    Oddly, I've even tried this last step two or three times.. and on the second or third try (second or third open bus), it worked.

    You'd think that deleting the plugs would be enough; but I've tested it with the Gain plugin and both channels phase-flipped—nothing else in the bus but the Gain plug—and when sending to the 2-bus, the output did not null. So I'm thinking that trying to create these buses on the fly, with audio actually being streamed to the sound card, might be what's doing it. It's the only thing I can think of.

    Moral of the story being, stop the audio first and then add the buses and plugs. When I'm mindful of that, I don't tend to experience the issue as described.

    I'll report back if Logic proves me wrong and combs out my audio again...
  16. #16
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation

    It really isn't much of an issue, really. Hitting stop and then play fixed the problem for me in all cases except the Fab Filter EQ, and I suspect that the issue may be with that particular plugin, and not Logic.

    It's also a pretty good habit to not instantiate plugins on the fly - I've had enough crashes happening that way to be very mindful of it.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  17. #17
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    Default Re: Solved: Logic Busses and Delay Compensation


    It's also a pretty good habit to not instantiate plugins on the fly - I've had enough crashes happening that way to be very mindful of it.


    otek
    This.
    Mike

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