1. #21
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    There is one thing that doesn't work for me, and that is when any stage performer looks to be copying a move. I see guitar players do it more than anybody. Standing around like someone's got a Michael Bay camera angle on you only works if someone has a Michael Bay camera angle on you. What works in a music video doesn't work in a club.

    don't forget that when Townshend first 'windmilled' he thought he was copying a move he saw Keith Richards do in warming up.
    of course when he told Keith he was 'borrowing' it, Keith looked at him like he had no idea what the fuck he was talking about.
    but still... it was still a "stolen" move he made his own.

    If you're going to say no one else can windmill because it 'belongs to Townshend' then can we say no one else can stand up and play because ___ already did it?
    Yes... you ideally want ot make your look/moves/personna your own.
    but we ALL build on what came before, and that means to some degree 'stealing' or 'copying' the starting points.

    I have to freely admit I take a good chunk of what I do on stage from Townshend.
    Steal from the best.
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    “As the curtain opened, Keith Richards is doing this,” the guitarist relates, standing up and demonstrating the windmill motion. “I was thinking, ‘Wow, that’s so cool!’ I thought it was part of his ‘thing.’ A couple of weeks later, we supported them again in a club in south London. I’m watching carefully, waiting, and he didn’t do it.”
    Puzzled, the young Townshend asked the Stones guitarist why he didn’t do the windmill. “He went, ‘What?!’,” Townshend recalls. “I can’t tell you what exactly what he said, but the inference was, ‘I’m Keith Richards. Do you really think I’m gonna do ballet?’ That was the inference.”
    Of course, that ended up just as well for Townshend, who has gone on to make the move his “thing” instead.

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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    I have to freely admit I take a good chunk of what I do on stage from Townshend.
    Steal from the best.
    especially from about 3:10 on,
    windmilling commences at 4:30
    and this was only from a week or so ago!

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    Default things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Who wants to see a bunch of noodlers stand stock still on stage?
    I'd almost rather see a show of half assed musicians that were selling the shit out of it.

    As a musician, it helps to see your self back in video, so you can eliminate things you think are stupid, and like weedy said, steal from the best.

    I also benefit from being quiet for the most part, but I've had a moment or two where I did ok while opening my mouth.
    But it's not reliable....

    For my part though, I like musicians that talk.... Provided, of course, that they are good at it.
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    see, with respect, that's YOUR jaded old sound guy take on it.
    (and I say that as a jaded old guy myself, so...)

    I don't see it that way.

    it's every bit as 'real' and relevant for SOME now
    I suppose. As far as being a sound guy, I'm physically sound, but I think mental health is a bit overrated. One out of two ain't bad.

    It's a matter of perspective. To me, their grandparents' stage antics aren't as interesting as their grandparents' music. Which they're also still playing and listening to, whether they know it or not or like it or not.

    NTTAWWT

    I guess the 20th century is kind of hard to beat.

    Remakes of: batman, superman, king kong, godzilla, mission impossible, charlie's angels, get smart, taking of pelham 123...

    just saying
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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  6. #26
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Who wants to see a bunch of noodlers stand stock still on stage?
    I'd almost rather see a show of half assed musicians that were selling the shit out of it.

    exactly.
    That's what I think as well.
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    I'm at least equally annoyed by watching "performers" who practised in their bedrooms so that they can 'shred', but don't have the slightest idea what performing SHOW in front of people is supposed to be like.

    .......

    I suppose.
    but again, studied indifference isn't entertainment either.
    I'll agree that there is a certain "made for tv rock band" look that I find irritating.
    but again, it's because they've never got out and played, or seen great bands play.
    they've only based their idea of how to look on watching tv.
    I agree. That's the other side of the same coin.

    What it comes down to is that a performance needs to be emotionally engaging and genuine to be entertaining. Which emotions are engaged depends on the act.
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Sometimes it's necessary for someone in the band to give others cues. That's what a conductor is for.
    Yes I understand that. But when people are sort of stopping the show and turning around and looking at eachother for 'the next part' - and I'm not talking about in a jam band session - it's distracting.


    Giving cues when you shouldn't have to but the band is ill-rehearsed is another story.
    Right, that's what I'm talking about.


    If you're going to say no one else can windmill because it 'belongs to Townshend' then can we say no one else can stand up and play because ___ already did it?
    Yes... you ideally want ot make your look/moves/personna your own.
    but we ALL build on what came before, and that means to some degree 'stealing' or 'copying' the starting points.

    I have to freely admit I take a good chunk of what I do on stage from Townshend.
    Steal from the best.
    That isn't what I'm saying (or said).

    Everybody rips everybody off all the time. But sometimes you feel like you're watching a bad impersonation of somebody who's actually famous. You see a lot of people doing things for the 'camera' (that isn't there), but from an audience perspective it isn't engaging at all.

    You can windmill all you want to. But most people look like total dopes doing it. If you can make it cool for you, great, but part of making it cool is not caring if it IS cool - and too many people look like they're trying to look cool. It's a hard balance to find.
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Who wants to see a bunch of noodlers stand stock still on stage?
    I'd almost rather see a show of half assed musicians that were selling the shit out of it.
    It depends on the act, to me. On the one extreme, people used to comment that Eric Clapton just kind of stood there. But Cream played a type of music that you can't play while jumping around.

    Much like you wouldn't expect a chamber group, classical symphony or jazz band to jump around. Because there's a limit to what you can play if you're jumping around. My understanding is that the Vienna Philharmonic doesn't do a lot of stage diving. I don't think they typically have a mosh pit at Newport Jazz, either.

    On the other end of the spectrum there are punk bands who specialize in jumping around. Music is a secondary consideration in that case.

    Bands like the Who were in a kind of middle ground between the two extremes. In the case of the Rolling Stones, the singer runs around the stage while the band mostly concentrates on playing. That's been the template for many a band.

    The showmanship IMO should be appropriate to the act, except when it's appropriate to be innappropriate.

    IOW you'd expect classical musicians wearing tuxedos but putting a tuxedo on a Rock musician with torn jeans might work in one case.

    You'd generally expect classical musicians to turn in a staid performance, but then there's Peter Shickele...



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    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
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    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  10. #30
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Name:  money windmill .jpg
Views: 168
Size:  15.2 KBYes, Cream was boring live.

    although not nearly as boring as Clapton has become without them.
  11. #31
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Name:  money windmill .jpg
Views: 168
Size:  15.2 KBYes, Cream was boring live.

    although not nearly as boring as Clapton has become without them.
    Not when my dad saw them play in Glasgow - Clapton lost his place in a solo, Ginger baker threw a drumstick straight at his head and they had a fight.

    You can take the band to Glasgow, but you can't take Glasgow out of the band.

    Wait, that's not right...
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    see?
    they should have done that every show
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Cream stole fist-fighting on stage from The Kinks.

    I too, would rather see a band that is engaged and maybe muffs a note or six on stage, rather than a band that nails everything and stands stock-still. If you can shake your behind and hit all of the notes, all the better. I didn't pay to hear the album (that I own) played as if the needle was dropped, while the band stands around.

    I like Greg Lake's thoughts on recordings:

    Originally Posted by Greg Lake
    I've got this sort of belief; when somebody is good enough to buy an album that you've made, you owe them a performance, really. I look upon it as a sort of a check that you make out from the band. The check is not the actual money. It's a sort of promise to pay. And I think the record's like that. A recording is not an actual performance. It is a kind of promise of a performance. I've always felt a kind of duty to perform, really. And apart from that, I enjoy it; I really enjoy performing. It's one of the highlights of my life. It's really what got me into the music industry. The recordings came later; you know.
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    Default things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    It depends on the act, to me. On the one extreme, people used to comment that Eric Clapton just kind of stood there. But Cream played a type of music that you can't play while jumping around.

    Much like you wouldn't expect a chamber group, classical symphony or jazz band to jump around. Because there's a limit to what you can play if you're jumping around. My understanding is that the Vienna Philharmonic doesn't do a lot of stage diving. I don't think they typically have a mosh pit at Newport Jazz, either.

    On the other end of the spectrum there are punk bands who specialize in jumping around. Music is a secondary consideration in that case.

    Bands like the Who were in a kind of middle ground between the two extremes. In the case of the Rolling Stones, the singer runs around the stage while the band mostly concentrates on playing. That's been the template for many a band.

    The showmanship IMO should be appropriate to the act, except when it's appropriate to be innappropriate.

    IOW you'd expect classical musicians wearing tuxedos but putting a tuxedo on a Rock musician with torn jeans might work in one case.

    You'd generally expect classical musicians to turn in a staid performance, but then there's Peter Shickele...



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    Can we not get like a symphony doing the Brandenburg Concertos with a "Gwar" style stage show? I don't think that's asking much.

    That guy is crazy btw.
    Last edited by giraffe; December 19th, 2014 at 05:59 AM.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Yes, Cream was boring live.

    although not nearly as boring as Clapton has become without them.
    Ok..let me get this straight...if you play fantastic but stand there, you're boring. But if you jump around and play shitty, then you're good...I see where your priorities are...I'm there to hear the music. If I want to see a bunch of jumping around, I'll go to the circus.
    Peace,

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  16. #36
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    Ok..let me get this straight...if you play fantastic but stand there, you're boring. But if you jump around and play shitty, then you're good...I see where your priorities are...I'm there to hear the music. If I want to see a bunch of jumping around, I'll go to the circus.

    yeah, like that's what I said

    I get it... you love a particularly tedious to watch band, so it makes sense

    but still,
    if I wanted to hear perfect renditions of the record while guys in street clothes stand still, I could just listen to the (inevitably better sounding) record

    no one wants to see/hear a 'bad' band.
    But I expect the good band to also put on a good show.
  17. #37
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    yeah, like that's what I said

    I get it... you love a particularly tedious to watch band, so it makes sense

    but still,
    if I wanted to hear perfect renditions of the record while guys in street clothes stand still, I could just listen to the (inevitably better sounding) record
    Yeah, but his band hardly ever sounds exactly like the record.

    no one wants to see/hear a 'bad' band.
    But I expect the good band to also put on a good show.
    Yep.
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    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    yeah, like that's what I said

    I get it... you love a particularly tedious to watch band, so it makes sense

    but still,
    if I wanted to hear perfect renditions of the record while guys in street clothes stand still, I could just listen to the (inevitably better sounding) record

    no one wants to see/hear a 'bad' band.
    But I expect the good band to also put on a good show.
    You know, I like MORE than the Grateful Dead. I think the focus these days is more on show than it is playing...Every act has to have 50 dancers on stage and the vocals are taped because the performer is too busy running around and dancing and stuff. I go to a show to see if the artists can play and sing like they do on the recording and not resort to lip syncing and tape...They don't have to stand stock still, but I don't want to see them miming to a tape machine....;-)
    Peace,

    Jerryskid

    "...An entire genre of music based around the Hail Mary rescue attempt of an un-compable Cher vocal performance. Who knew? ..."-Dwoz

    " Where'd I put my damn Metamucil? When's Paul Harvey coming on? Why are my pants pulled up around my chest?
    " ..Droolbucket



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  19. #39
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    You know, I like MORE than the Grateful Dead. I think the focus these days is more on show than it is playing...Every act has to have 50 dancers on stage and the vocals are taped because the performer is too busy running around and dancing and stuff. I go to a show to see if the artists can play and sing like they do on the recording and not resort to lip syncing and tape...They don't have to stand stock still, but I don't want to see them miming to a tape machine....;-)
    Relax. It's not a defense of shitty acts, it's an admonishment of boring ones.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: things performers do on stage at shows - what works and what fails?

    ...They don't have to stand stock still, but I don't want to see them miming to a tape machine....;-)
    I don't either.
    but that's a boring act, that needs diversions happening all around it.

    and in truth, I just spent a few months on the road with Cher (for the second time) and she does almost stand there stock still, while it all goes on around her.
    (for the record, I'm not dissing Cher. Especially at 68, she's doing just fine)

    If you can put on a show yourself, you don't need dancers and props and smoke bombs...
    the opposite of a spectacle isn't "boring", it's a good show that doesn't require the spectacle.

    you could have put dancing unicorns on stage with The Who and people would STILL have been watching Townshend and Moon.
    unicorns would be a waste of a trailer.



    but I suppose I might take issue with this implicit attitude:

    . I go to a show to see if the artists can play and sing like they do on the recording and not resort to lip syncing and tape...
    that makes it seem like a test...
    standing there, arms folded, "let's just see if these guys are any good"...

    I don't think that's how the great majority of people spend their money; to 'test' the band.
    They go to be ENTERTAINED.
    not "impressed"

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