Thread: Scenario you would choose

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  1. #1
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    Default Scenario you would choose

    In a hybrid setup, and assuming the EQ on your analog console is nice or above, which of the following scenarios would you choose for maximum efficiency/sound quality?

    On the console channel, you have low shelf, 2 parametric (low mid, high mid), high shelf.

    1) Cull the crap you really don't want with plugin EQ before going to console and use console EQ to boost frequencies you want?

    2) Cull the crap you really don't want on console EQ and use plugin EQ to boost frequencies you want?

    3) Only use console EQ?

    4) Only use EQ plugins?

    5) Expect a beating, noob, this is the Womb Forum!
  2. #2
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    My console has pretty decent EQ in it. So far I haven't had to ever patch in any outboard to a channel. I do run outboard EQ on the 2-buss.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  3. #3
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    My console has pretty decent EQ in it. So far I haven't had to ever patch in any outboard to a channel. I do run outboard EQ on the 2-buss.
    John, I was not talking about patching an outboard EQ, but using an EQ plugin in conjunction with the console EQ.

    Reason I ask is that I was fishing for crap on the console. But while sweeping, I got some spots that sounded really nice in both low and high mids. That's when a light turned on.

    Using an EQ plugin to fish for and getting rid of crap I don't want would liberate the console EQ for when I need nice sounding boosts. Might be a retarded idea. Guys with better experience than me might have something to say about this.
  4. #4
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    So the idea being to use the plugin (which is presumably less better sounding) to subtract, and the hardware (which is presumably more better sounding) to add?
    If that's what you're getting at... in my completely unqualified opinion ... that logic would seem to makes sense.
    I'm interested in hearing what the others thoughts are.

    -r
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    So the idea being to use the plugin (which is presumably less better sounding) to subtract, and the hardware (which is presumably more better sounding) to add?
    I would never be that formulaic, but very generally, I would use the console EQ for everything unless there was a specific problem which would be hard to deal with depending on the properties of the console EQ.

    I think this is what John is hinting at - using plugins if you wanted, say, a notch at 420 Hz.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  6. #6
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    So the idea being to use the plugin (which is presumably less better sounding) to subtract, and the hardware (which is presumably more better sounding) to add?
    -r
    Yep, that's exactly the logic behind my question.
  7. #7
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Some plugin EQs can get a lot more surgical, which 9 times out of 10 is about cutting stuff out. So if I needed that at some point, I'd probably use the plugin, but the console EQ would do the vast majority of the overall mix EQ - whether it be boosts OR cuts.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  8. #8
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    I would consider this question mostly from the conditions I operate. If I do attended sessions only and charge for recalls than I'd go mostly for console EQ. If sessions are unattended and recalls are often I would choose way which allows me faster recall.
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  9. #9
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Well, an outboard EQ in my rig would be analogous to an EQ plugin in yours, would it not? (Aside from the fact that you can instantiate the plugin numerous times and you can't do that with hardware.)

    Are you talking about a hardware console or a virtual console, BTW?

    As far as fishing for carp is concerned, what sort of "fish" are you talking about?
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  10. #10
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    I would never be that formulaic, but very generally, I would use the console EQ for everything unless there was a specific problem which would be hard to deal with depending on the properties of the console EQ.

    I think this is what John is hinting at - using plugins if you wanted, say, a notch at 420 Hz.


    otek
    Yeah, that's basically it. If there was something that needed surgical attention and the console EQ couldn't handle it and do any required tonal shaping at the same time I have a couple of hardware units (A SCAMP parametric that's really good and a couple of White graphics, plus an Orange Country parametric that's a clone of the ADR that I'd need to wire in) that could do the job, but I've never needed to use them.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  11. #11
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Well, an outboard EQ in my rig would be analogous to an EQ plugin in yours, would it not? (Aside from the fact that you can instantiate the plugin numerous times and you can't do that with hardware.)

    Are you talking about a hardware console or a virtual console, BTW?

    As far as fishing for carp is concerned, what sort of "fish" are you talking about?
    Yeah, an outboard EQ would be analogous to a plugin, but I doubt you have one per channel. Might be wrong though, you never know.

    We're talking hardware console.

    As for fishing, it might be for unpleasant resonances, mud, basically anything that annoys me. It also can be centers of power. Took that from SM. Might not cut if unnecessary, but it's ready if needed.
  12. #12
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Yeah, an outboard EQ would be analogous to a plugin, but I doubt you have one per channel. Might be wrong though, you never know.

    We're talking hardware console.

    As for fishing, it might be for unpleasant resonances, mud, basically anything that annoys me. It also can be centers of power. Took that from SM. Might not cut if unnecessary, but it's ready if needed.
    Well, unpleasant resonances and mud should be taken care of in tracking. Gert the sound right coming in.

    Are you talking about working of tracks you've recorded or somebody else's?

    Not sure what you mean by "centers of power".

    No, I don't have one outboard EQ per channel but if a project was that badly screwed up I'd suggest retracking it. Unless you're getting paid to clean up somebody else's mess, of course.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  13. #13
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    a couple of White graphics
    A-ha!!! So you are the guy who stole mine!

    Seriously though, what do you have? a 4400?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I used to own one but it got stolen years ago. IIRC they used to have one at Hyde Street in SF too, on top of the main monitors. I liked mine for oomphing up kick drums back in the day when I was working mostly OTB.

    Not sure what you mean by "centers of power".
    If I remember correctly in Slippynese, the part(s) of the frequency spectrum that has the most impact on the audibility or energy potential of a sound in situ.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  14. #14
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    A-ha!!! So you are the guy who stole mine!

    Seriously though, what do you have? a 4400?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	pho-4400-front-trans.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	12.5 KB 
ID:	12935

    I used to own one but it got stolen years ago. IIRC they used to have one at Hyde Street in SF too, on top of the main monitors. I liked mine for oomphing up kick drums back in the day when I was working mostly OTB.



    If I remember correctly in Slippynese, the part(s) of the frequency spectrum that has the most impact on the audibility or energy potential of a sound in situ.


    otek
    I have one 4000 and one 4400. Not quite certain what the difference is, apart from the plugin sockets on the back.

    When I was with FM Productions our #1 monitor rig had a whole rack of them for stage monitors. Guys who were used to only graphics with sliders would get the strangest expressions....

    If you're interested you can get them on Ebay quite cheap now, relative to the quality of the EQ - I think the rotary controls confuse people. One of the few real sleepers left in my opinion.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  15. #15
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Well, unpleasant resonances and mud should be taken care of in tracking. Gert the sound right coming in.
    So, you would stop the recording to hunt for a particular bug which appears once in a three minute song?
    It is not an unusual thing to happen.
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  16. #16
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    So, you would stop the recording to hunt for a particular bug which appears once in a three minute song?
    It is not an unusual thing to happen.
    I'd try to get such things taken care of in setup. But yes, if something's wrong, fix it, don't let it go to propagate more problems down the line. It's nearly always much easier to take care of it at the source. Faster, too.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  17. #17
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    I'd try to get such things taken care of in setup. But yes, if something's wrong, fix it, don't let it go to propagate more problems down the line. It's nearly always much easier to take care of it at the source. Faster, too.
    So, you hear hot spot on a bass and you yell to the band "hold it right there we are fixing it ASAP"?

    As for faster... maybe, but it will take time! And often times sharp resonances which appear in non-ideal environment are moving target. Frequency of a nasty room mode may change with the temperature and humidity etc etc. So it's not like you can set and forget.

    I agree that it is best to deal with all the problem before recording starts. But there's reality too and what I surely would not want is to put band on hold while I'm searching for problems. And often times problems are only seen after getting take. So how many times would I ask for retake before I dealt with all the gremlins which might appear?

    And another elephant in the room (a room mode obviously) -- if the problem is acoustic, i.e. the room is not perfect, where is the guarantee that the monitoring is great and what I consider a problem of recording is actually a problem of monitoring?
    Of course if you record in your own room only and you have intimate knowledge of it, you can aim for dealing with all possible problems beforehand as you know them all from your experience. But what if you don't know the room?

    And what to do when your task is only mix and you are not in control of recording AT ALL?
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  18. #18
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    Not sure what you mean by "centers of power".
    I'll quote SM here. That's where I got the idea from:

    First thing I'm trying to find out as I shift the Logic channel Eq. around on this thing, is where the obvious areas of POWER in the instrument lie.

    In this case the most dramatic change seems to occur right around the 65hz range.

    I don't know, nor do I fucking CARE at this juncture, if this is going to be a frequency I'm gonna be boosting or cutting in the long run.

    Mixing is rarely about "Set and Forget". It's usually much more about "Set and DON'T Forget"
  19. #19
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    So, you hear hot spot on a bass and you yell to the band "hold it right there we are fixing it ASAP"?

    As for faster... maybe, but it will take time! And often times sharp resonances which appear in non-ideal environment are moving target. Frequency of a nasty room mode may change with the temperature and humidity etc etc. So it's not like you can set and forget.

    I agree that it is best to deal with all the problem before recording starts. But there's reality too and what I surely would not want is to put band on hold while I'm searching for problems. And often times problems are only seen after getting take. So how many times would I ask for retake before I dealt with all the gremlins which might appear?

    And another elephant in the room (a room mode obviously) -- if the problem is acoustic, i.e. the room is not perfect, where is the guarantee that the monitoring is great and what I consider a problem of recording is actually a problem of monitoring?
    Of course if you record in your own room only and you have intimate knowledge of it, you can aim for dealing with all possible problems beforehand as you know them all from your experience. But what if you don't know the room?

    And what to do when your task is only mix and you are not in control of recording AT ALL?
    Well, back when I first started being around real studios and professional engineers and producers, when I got what experience I have of real studio situations, the people I learned from used to actually advance things like the place they were going to record in and take some time getting good sounds out of the instruments. And not just the guitar or the drums, ALL the instruments. They didn't go and set up willy-nilly and try to work with whatever happened to come out. They do preproduction with the artists before going in and they'd take the time to get sounds in the studio before the band started tracking. I think that's a good thing, It's good practice. And it's being lost to a large degree as people no longer have the benefit of working under established people.

    So hopefully I'd hear that hot spot on the bass and do something about it before the band starts actually tracking parts. Admittedly, I don't always follow my own advice, especially when the politics of working with my own band comes into play (which as we all know is one of the prime reasons not to produce or engineer your own band), but I'll tell you, I almost always regret it when that happens because I should and do know better.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  20. #20
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    Default Re: Scenario you would choose

    I think it's a matter of general policy to try and get the sounds as close as possible when tracking.

    But, at least for me, I rarely if ever catch them all right there on the spot.

    A "live spot" on a bass guitar is typically a problem with the instrument itself, and if the sound fits the song EXCEPT for that boomy G# note, I'm probably not going to halt the session to rent another P-bass. Depending on how familiar I am with the room, I may not even try to fix it right then and there, because it may be a problem with that specific room. If it's a big session, I will try to catch instrument- or amp-related in preproduction, and definitely take all instruments through a setup. Sometimes, I still miss a problem like that.

    Some problems may even occur during the rundown of what ends up being the take. If so, I'm probably not going to stop the recording just to address them.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif

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