Thread: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

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  1. #1
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    Default What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I'm thing tired of this.

    Im mixing some roughs and I did the gated toms with the trigger track thing of otek's. I moved the trigger snippets ahead 3 ms. I go back later on after doing some editing on some other tracks and they've moved back behind the original record position?!

    WTF?
    Mike
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Im mixing some roughs and I did the gated toms with the trigger track thing of otek's. I moved the trigger snippets ahead 3 ms. I go back later on after doing some editing on some other tracks and they've moved back behind the original record position?!
    I've never had the actual region moving on its own.

    What I HAVE experienced, on countless occasions, is the recording moving randomly inside the region. I suspect this to be connected to Logic's wanton disregard of what constitutes actual digital silence - the same disregard can be observed with file exports, when Logic can gladly chop off cymbals or reverberation at the end of the file (the "include audio tail" function is always mysteriously greyed out in the export dialog).

    I suppose a workaround in your situation would be to do a digital mixdown of the truncated tom snippets. A merged region (glue tool) would respond to "move to original record position" commands, should the same thing occur again.

    It sucks, regardless.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  3. #3
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Yeah, I've got everything smpte locked too.

    This stuff was recorded sans click, so I was also setting up a beat map, which is just tempo. It has nothing to do with moving audio. Well I had cut some side sticks out of the snare track so I could turn them up with clip gain, the snare then got out of time with the rest of the drum Mics. These regions were smpte locked AND grouped for phase locked editing. But they weren't phase locked anymore.

    i now know, before you do anything, trim the heads to the countoff and setup a beat map. After that you should be able to edit. Except for the weird tom snippets thing.

    Thanks otek.
    Mike
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I'm wondering if it doesn't have something to do with smpte's resolution not being high enough? SMTPE is based on timecode if I'm not mistaken, and that's at most 30 fps. What is that? 1 frame = 33ms? That's 1/10 of the resolution of Milliseconds, and I don't begin to know how much lower than samples!

    So something is getting lost in translation perhaps?

    Anorr way I've seen a region move... You can zoom in to the sample level (I was doing this to clip the count offs to put right at the beginning of a bar), and when you snip it, you'll see the audio move to the left, or earlier in time.

    there is something seriously wrong here!
    Mike
  5. #5
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Now I'm wondering if it doesn't have something to do with the anchor point?

    when you strip silence the track, it creates a new anchor point. Which also was moved in relation to where it was created/placed for the snippets.
    Mike
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I'm wondering if it doesn't have something to do with smpte's resolution not being high enough? SMTPE is based on timecode if I'm not mistaken, and that's at most 30 fps.
    You also have 80 sub frames, each of which being barely .42 ms. That said, it is obviously not phase accurate, so you should never try to lock audio which needs that amount of accuracy with SMPTE. Always keep it in the same session/project.

    Anorr way I've seen a region move... You can zoom in to the sample level (I was doing this to clip the count offs to put right at the beginning of a bar), and when you snip it, you'll see the audio move to the left, or earlier in time.
    This is what I was referring to earlier. It is, AFAIK, actually the sample moving inside the region. The region itself is not moving. This is maddening because trimming any region MIGHT move the sample (it doesn't always do it). Selecting "move to original record position" will move the files back to their "non-delayed" original state. This is a way of ensuring that the files have at least not moved randomly. After this, you can set the same delay again in the region parameter box. A bit clunky, but such is often the nature of workarounds.

    I should probably also clarify what I meant earlier. Regions will always respond to the "move to original record position" command. But if you have delayed the regions in some way, this obviously becomes problematic. Doing a digital mixdown (glue tool) will retain the delayed position, and then you can return the merged track to wherever it was created.

    Now I'm wondering if it doesn't have something to do with the anchor point?
    when you strip silence the track, it creates a new anchor point.
    Yes, and this is also tied to Logic's, ahem, rather autonomous way of looking at "signal present" in a region. The anchor point appears to be set where Logic perceives there to be "enough" signal on the track to constitute the beginning of the actual event you wanted to strip silence. This point can be just about anywhere in the vicinity of the actual event, and in the case of trimming regions, can cause the waveform to move. When you try to split a region by Flex Markers, it often acts in the same random way, presumably due to the same reason.

    Let me also add that handling small, independent regions in a tempo-mapped track in Logic, is precarious at best. Alter the tempo track in any way after the fact, or even try to move regions around, and they will respond in some fairly unpredictable ways. Use a common start point (preferably at zero) when dealing with tempo maps. At the very least, make sure your shorter regions do not cross tempo change points.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Thanks otek!

    i was trying to avoid the Delay in the parameters box as moving earlier adds latency to everything else. Perhaps this is the better way to go though. I have combined any edits to the start. Ha gotta get the order right before you start doing stuff. Apparently Apple is not aware of this issue? Lol

    I was doing the tempo map because of rubato and ritards and we've got horn section overdubs the 27th.
    Mike
  8. #8
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    You also have 80 sub frames, each of which being barely .42 ms. That said, it is obviously not phase accurate, so you should never try to lock audio which needs that amount of accuracy with SMPTE. Always keep it in the same session/project.


    otek
    I'm wondering about this? The audio is in the same project after having been brought in from PT. I was locking it to try and keep it from moving at all. Even sans tempo map. It just seems to move regardless and I thought this might help. But it doesn't, lol.
    Mike
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I'm wondering about this?
    I don't fully understand where SMPTE comes into the picture or how you have your project set up. Are you syncing Logic to another recording device? Are you keeping parts of the kit on another device and other parts in Logic? All I'm saying is that SMPTE is not accurate enough to get absolute phase lock.

    Using tempo maps AND SMPTE lock between devices in conjunction sounds like a stew about ready to explode.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I don't fully understand where SMPTE comes into the picture or how you have your project set up. Are you syncing Logic to another recording device? Are you keeping parts of the kit on another device and other parts in Logic? All I'm saying is that SMPTE is not accurate enough to get absolute phase lock.

    Using tempo maps AND SMPTE lock between devices in conjunction sounds like a stew about ready to explode.


    otek
    Ah, I see. No it's all in Logic. You can lock regions in position by 'right click' sub menu SMPTE/Lock Selection to SMPTE position. I don't know what PT calls it? Nuendo has a selection/drop down menu where you could lock position, edits, or both.

    Thats why there's all this talk about SMPTE. I'm just using Logic's term!

    On a side note...

    When I rewired the room this past January, I pulled out the Beta machine, and my balckburst generator and just went with the Orion's word clock. I do still have a MOTU midi xt that can read and send SMPTE, but that's only used if I need to send timecode down ISDN or source connect for ADR!

    Fun, fun!
    Mike
  11. #11
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Ah, I see. No it's all in Logic. You can lock regions in position by 'right click' sub menu SMPTE/Lock Selection to SMPTE position. I don't know what PT calls it? Nuendo has a selection/drop down menu where you could lock position, edits, or both.
    Ok, I think that explains it. You can force SMPTE lock in both PT and Logic, but AFAIK that means you are quantizing the audio regions to the nearest subframe. I may be missing something, but I don't quite see why you would want to do that in this case, especially when you need phase-locked audio.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  12. #12
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Ok, I think that explains it. You can force SMPTE lock in both PT and Logic, but AFAIK that means you are quantizing the audio regions to the nearest subframe. I may be missing something, but I don't quite see why you would want to do that in this case, especially when you need phase-locked audio.


    otek
    Well, I just did things in the wrong order. But I needed to do the tempo map and I wanted to keep edits where they were. But that was dumb. Do the tempo map, THEN edit. And then consolidate.

    - or -

    edit, consolidate, THEN tempo map.

    - Do NOT -

    edit, SMPTE Lock, tempo map. Disaster.

    I figured if you locked it, then it was not going to move. I was wrong.

    Oh, and I do have Phase locked audio editing in the groups enabled, and it still moves your audio. Just all together, lol.

    And Logic was moving those snippets sometime 10-18 ms. Not by sub frames, and not by my choosing.

    its working now, but it took me waaaay too long to figure it out!
    Mike
  13. #13
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    I have never successfully used tempo maps without consolidating the files with a common start point.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  14. #14
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Makes sense. Thanks man!
    Mike
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Regions sliding around when beat mapping and flexing can usually be fixed with this:

    Select all tracks
    Edit -> Tempo -> Remove Tempo Information from Audio File
    Edit -> Tempo -> Export Tempo Information to Audio File

    Seems Flex and Beat Mapping are relative to the embedded tempo in the audio file. I spent about a month pulling out my hair until I saw this on another Logic forum.
  16. #16
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Oh tip #2. Logic stuffs audio files with tons of transient markers. Thin them out in the Audio File Editor using the '-' make sure the only transients that are marked are actual transients not bleed or some thing in a cymbal crash or a held chord.
  17. #17
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    Default Re: What IS the deal with Logic moving audio?!

    Now if Logic could only trust where I put the markers and not make up its own edit points….

    Slice at transient markers is useless because Logic randomly puts the edit points where it wants to. I had to come up with a method where I put the edits in in Pro Tools, and then export the file to Logic to make each slice the exact same length using the list editor (I use this for rock solid drum triggering).

    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif

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