Thread: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany


    That it's more or less a ponzi scheme at the music industries expense?? Asking in earnest ... I see groups like Apple jumping in the market so I assume it's a viable business.
    It more or less is. And the artists are the equivalent to those Herbalife people you see who just swear that it works. Apple just wants a piece of the pie before the pie gets eaten. Same with Google. Apple has a deservedly better reputation and history of compensating artists, though. It is promising... but we have to wait and see what happens.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    You're saying they are not. That it's more or less a ponzi scheme at the music industries expense?? Asking in earnest ... I see groups like Apple jumping in the market so I assume it's a viable business.
    That's what assumptions will get you when you don't look closely at the facts.

    Apple is not a streaming company, they're a company that sells gizmos and they turn a fat profit by selling a lot of them. However Apple's gizmos require "content" in order to be interesting to the public. A very popular form of "content" is music. So Apple is more than content to run a "loss leader" operation supplying "content" to people who buy their (and others') gizmos. In fact they make a sufficient profit from gizmos that they can actually afford to pay more to content owners than other companies like Spotify, who are in fact running a ponzi scheme based on stock prices and options and are not profitable, nor are they likely to be.

    Would you pay $50/month for a streaming subscription? Because it would take at least that for the company to pay a fair royalty (fair meaning one that would compensate for lost record sales) and actually turn a profit..

    Spotify, BTW, has secured the cooperation of the major labels by giving them an 18% interest in the company's stock, which (assuming they cash out before the whole thing falls apart) is worth a good chunk of change that the companies don't have to split with rights holders because it's not royalties. This is very attractive to the giant multinationals who have gobbled up the majors. (To me it looks like a huge conflict of interest, but that's another issue.) In return, Spotify is guaranteed access to the catalogs of said record companies. That means that the artists don't actually have the option of pulling their stuff from Spotify unless they're as big as Taylor Swift and have enough sales to have their demands taken seriously by their label. That pretty much makes the somewhat naive notion of an across the boards artist revolt against the service a non-starter.
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    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
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    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    I thought that might be what you meant.

    I'm going to hold to my thoughts until I get some clarification on my last questions about the viability of streaming services in general.

    Thanks nooby

    -r
    That's nobby, dammit!



    Actually, my last post sort of summed up the book Dr. Casino was referring to.

    In the book there is a "patient zero" who started a major viral outbreak; an employee of a CD pressing plant that smuggled the material out in an oversize belt buckle (not uncommon in that region, apparently) and distributed it to piracy sites.

    I have a couple of problems with that book (you think you're cynical... HA!)

    1) The title includes the presupposition that music is, in fact, free. Done deal. Nothing to see here, move right along.

    Music is free, but pay me $28 for this book.

    2) The author states that he illegally downloaded thousands of songs in his college years, but he realizes that it was wrong now.

    Now he has a spotify subscription.

    3) I'm sure it's a well written book, but I already have the gist of it. I don't think I need to know the specifics unless there's something useful to be learned. As far as that is concerned, maybe Dr. Casino can give us a book report. Maybe I'll read it next year. When it's in the library, free

    Witt, a first-time author, comes from the world of finance, and his old-fashioned, connect-the-dots reporting presents a nuanced depiction of an issue usually reduced to emotional absolutes.

    Rather than arguing the moral pros and cons of “stealing music,” he examines the stories, and the range of motivations, behind individuals who played a part in this upheaval, from the North Carolina factory worker who became the world’s primary source for albums leaked ahead of their release dates to the well-intentioned British college student prosecuted (and exonerated) for running a popular BitTorrent site in an attempt to create a global music library.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/bo...witt.html?_r=0
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    3) I'm sure it's a well written book, but I already have the gist of it. I don't think I need to know the specifics unless there's something useful to be learned. As far as that is concerned, maybe Dr. Casino can give us a book report. Maybe I'll read it next year. When it's in the library, free
    I'll probably buy it - when I can get a used copy off Amazon for a buck....
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  5. #25
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    I'll probably buy it - when I can get a used copy off Amazon for a buck....

    Is that what you think it's likely to be worth, or are you making a point?
  6. #26
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    That's nobby, dammit!
    Shit...sorry!!

    Apple is not a streaming company, they're a company that sells gizmos and they turn a fat profit by selling a lot of them.
    They are now. I switched from Rdio to Apple Music the day it launched. I was very conveniently notified by my gizmo that it was available.

    John, you're the first person that's even mentioned the deals being made between Spotify and what I thought was the label. Which was really the point of my questioning. I thought they should share some of the scrutiny. But it sounds like the deals are being made by companies that actually own the labels? If that's what you're saying ... I'm now in the doom and gloom camp. You're over a barrel and I don't think there's anything you can do about it.
    Stopping piracy may generate more revenue, but who's to say the additional revenue would be sent back to the artist. I don't know that I'd hold my breath over a deal being made by corporations removed from the industry. At that level, it seems like companies (or their board members) rarely see their assets as more than a line on a revenue sheet.

    I still don't think I see the streaming companies as the primary enemy here, but for a different reason than before. I just don't know what you do about it.

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  7. #27
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Is that what you think it's likely to be worth, or are you making a point?
    Both. It's only been out for a month, some time between 6 months and a year used prices will be around $1-$2 for a copy in "good" condition. And yes, I was making a point. Usually when there's a new book by an author I want to support I'll order a new copy.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  8. #28
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Shit...sorry!!

    They are now. I switched from Rdio to Apple Music the day it launched. I was very conveniently notified by my gizmo that it was available.
    You missed the point.

    Have you ever heard of the marketing concept of a "loss leader"? That's when a company or store blows out a product under cost - sometimes way under cost - to attract customers who will purchase other, highly profitable items. Music is a loss leader for Apple, always has been, always will be. It helps them sell iPods, music enabled iPhones, iPads, etc, etc, etc. That's where they make their money. Sure, they'll also sell to users of other products (much like the people who visit Best Buy and only buy the featured loss leader on sale that week), why wouldn't they? Those people might become real customers. But music isn't their business. Streaming isn't their business. It's a marketing come-on. Gizmos are their business.

    John, you're the first person that's even mentioned the deals being made between Spotify and what I thought was the label. Which was really the point of my questioning. I thought they should share some of the scrutiny. But it sounds like the deals are being made by companies that actually own the labels? If that's what you're saying ... I'm now in the doom and gloom camp. You're over a barrel and I don't think there's anything you can do about it.
    Well, the deals are being made with the labels but the label presidents have to report to the board of directors of the parent company, so when the parent company says "frog", they jump. Otherwise they'll soon be ex-label presidents. And really, when revenue isn't coming in any other way they have to do something to keep the ship afloat, so in a way it's kinda hard to blame them.

    If an artist is big enough they can get Spotify to pay them too - but not everybody is Led Zepplin.

    The elephant in the room is piracy.

    Without piracy there would be no need to enter into toxic streaming agreements because there would be the possibility of sales.

    Stopping piracy may generate more revenue, but who's to say the additional revenue would be sent back to the artist. I don't know that I'd hold my breath over a deal being made by corporations removed from the industry. At that level, it seems like companies (or their board members) rarely see their assets as more than a line on a revenue sheet.
    Of course it would, subject to the same accounting merry-go-round that's been a part of this and many other businesses forever. What makes the current situation different is that Spotify has given the labels an income source that they legally don't need to pay out to the artists because the income is not royalties for content. The companies went for it because otherwise they were getting nothing from all those lost sales - this way they get enough to keep the lights on, at least, and maybe sign a new act or two occasionally. Without piracy there would be no reason to play footsie with Spotify, et al.


    I still don't think I see the streaming companies as the primary enemy here, but for a different reason than before. I just don't know what you do about it.

    -r
    The primary enemy is the pirates, but look who owns Spotify! From what I understand of Parker, this situation has been part of his plan from the beginning - he intentionally took piracy over the top to create exactly the situation we are now in. Read some of his early statements, back when he was with Napster. It's all there.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  9. #29
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    That's nobby, dammit!



    Actually, my last post sort of summed up the book Dr. Casino was referring to.

    In the book there is a "patient zero" who started a major viral outbreak; an employee of a CD pressing plant that smuggled the material out in an oversize belt buckle (not uncommon in that region, apparently) and distributed it to piracy sites.

    I have a couple of problems with that book (you think you're cynical... HA!)

    1) The title includes the presupposition that music is, in fact, free. Done deal. Nothing to see here, move right along.

    Music is free, but pay me $28 for this book.

    2) The author states that he illegally downloaded thousands of songs in his college years, but he realizes that it was wrong now.

    Now he has a spotify subscription.

    3) I'm sure it's a well written book, but I already have the gist of it. I don't think I need to know the specifics unless there's something useful to be learned. As far as that is concerned, maybe Dr. Casino can give us a book report. Maybe I'll read it next year. When it's in the library, free
    I don't know anything about the author - I'm just curious to see how the story is presented. If it is entertaining enough I'll probably pass it around, and maybe others who are less inclined to read about this stuff will get a clearer picture. One of the most interesting things about history is that big events are usually engineered by very few individuals. If something big happened, or there was a 'shift' somewhere, it's because someone wanted it that way. That's kind of the story with piracy and streaming.

    Also, $50 a month for unlimited music would have been a steal 15 years ago.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Thanks John. I get what you're saying about Apple ... makes sense. I was taking it literally, that they were or weren't providing a service.

    I appreciate the rest of your input too. You have some thoughts there that I either didn't know or hadn't considered really. Piracy being the biggest one.

    In my day to day life, since about '98-'99, I saw Napster come alive and everyone I knew was using it. But after about '03-'04 it really wasn't a thing (around me). And now days the folks I spend most of my time around don't do it at all. At least they'd never admit it. My program has a staff of about 30 people who very in age from 20's to 50's and are all capable tech people who could easily work around any filter/security net set up by our local ISP. And now I don't think we're this exceptionally moral group ... but if someone comes around and even mentions they have a movie or something, they would be looked at like they just held up a convenient store.
    I don't know if this is a product of our income(the fact that we can afford to buy the music we want), or demographic or that maybe we'er older... but within my circles, trading or downloading music or movies from the net is kind of taboo. We all still share music, but we do it by sharing within something like Apple music. It's easy to mark a song and tell the guys to check it out.
    That experience has framed what I thought was the prevailing trend ... that piracy represented a minority, not a majority like it once did (obviously my limited view must equal the actual happenings of the world).
    But because of that, I've generally dismissed piracy as a thing that happens, but not the epicenter of the issue. From there, I'd landed on the people making and/or profiting from deals involving what seemed like the headline problem, streaming.
    I think what I'm taking away from here is a change in the order of issues. The root being piracy, which is the catalyst for other decisions being made downstream.

    -r
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Napster was short-lived but the concept spawned a bunch of sites that were based on the same concept of piracy directories.

    All you have to do is type the name of an album or movie into google followed by the word torrent and you'll see what I mean.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Napster was short-lived but the concept spawned a bunch of sites that were based on the same concept of piracy directories.

    All you have to do is type the name of an album or movie into google followed by the word torrent and you'll see what I mean.
    99% of that is stuff is a honeypot or is chalked full of malicious code posing as what you want. No way I'm clicking on anything that comes up there. But I suppose if you're intent on getting it for free, you'll learn to navigate those waters.

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Napster was short-lived but the concept spawned a bunch of sites that were based on the same concept of piracy directories.

    All you have to do is type the name of an album or movie into google followed by the word torrent and you'll see what I mean.
    I think using only "download" instead of torrent gives even more results... Free, ddl, streaming and torrent most of the time are words google suggest while you're typing the name of a song or a movie

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Time for me to go light up a joint and get out the popcorn popper. Not going to read this entire thread don't have time, but I do want to make note of something that income destruction for musicians, writers and those who support them is very real. And when you can't pay your bills one way then you have to pay them another way.

    Case in point: my remix room. Still doesn't exist! But I'm setting up a woodcraft business to make fake antiques to sell to clueless tourists in places like Gettysburg PA cuz that can pay some bills very quickly. Which I hope will help debunk the argument that "not paying musicians to make music will mean the musicians will make music they actually like" - You've heard that argument posed by music critics over the years..... The fact is that if I can not pay my bills making music then I have to pay my bills with something else. And by the time my 40 hour is over with there is no time left to make music, even if its for my own pleasure because of family obligations, cutting the grass, the dentist appointment, grocery shopping and everything else that eats up one's spare time. SO!!! Those who say I shouldn't be paid for my work can go fuck themselves up the ass with a chainsaw AFAIC I'm getting sick and tired of all of this. And as far as GEMA goes I hope and pray they stick it to Google it's about fucking time.

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  15. #35
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    Time for me to go light up a joint and get out the popcorn popper. Not going to read this entire thread don't have time, but I do want to make note of something that income destruction for musicians, writers and those who support them is very real. And when you can't pay your bills one way then you have to pay them another way.

    Case in point: my remix room. Still doesn't exist! But I'm setting up a woodcraft business to make fake antiques to sell to clueless tourists in places like Gettysburg PA cuz that can pay some bills very quickly. Which I hope will help debunk the argument that "not paying musicians to make music will mean the musicians will make music they actually like" - You've heard that argument posed by music critics over the years..... The fact is that if I can not pay my bills making music then I have to pay my bills with something else. And by the time my 40 hour is over with there is no time left to make music, even if its for my own pleasure because of family obligations, cutting the grass, the dentist appointment, grocery shopping and everything else that eats up one's spare time. SO!!! Those who say I shouldn't be paid for my work can go fuck themselves up the ass with a chainsaw AFAIC I'm getting sick and tired of all of this. And as far as GEMA goes I hope and pray they stick it to Google it's about fucking time.

    +1
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    After 20 years of soul-sucking tech work to pay the bills, count me as another +1.
  17. #37
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    I'll never forget when Motorola hired the CEO of Kodak with a statement that the future lies in "user created content."

    Silly-Con-man Valley investment banksters believe this bullsh!t. "Democratization" should have created a renaissance of musical art after twenty years.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: goog tube not considered above the law in Germany

    I'll never forget when Motorola hired the CEO of Kodak with a statement that the future lies in "user created content." ...
    Well, he does have considerable experience in facilitating "user created content".

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