Thread: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    What about left-handed air drummers?

    But seriously, folks - air drummers are even worse than air guitarists - they lock their air keys in their air car with the air bassplayer and it takes forever to find an air locksmith to get them out!

    I favor audience perspective but I also favor not panning the damn drums all over the place. A drum kit is ONE INSTRUMENT and should have a localized position on the sound stage. That's the way people actually hear it.

    Unless they're air drummers, I guess.

    The key to fending off Slipperman is the use of a fifth of Lagavulin as a defensive weapon. Just set it down in his vicinity. Laphroaig will probably work in a pinch.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  2. #22
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    I favor audience perspective but I also favor not panning the damn drums all over the place. A drum kit is ONE INSTRUMENT and should have a localized position on the sound stage. That's the way people actually hear it.
    People also don't hear one guitar assault them from hard left and right in real life, but it's one of the things that can make a record sound more exciting than real life, depending on the material.

    The key to fending off Slipperman is the use of a fifth of Lagavulin as a defensive weapon. Just set it down in his vicinity. Laphroaig will probably work in a pinch.
    What about Talisker?
  3. #23
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    People also don't hear one guitar assault them from hard left and right in real life, but it's one of the things that can make a record sound more exciting than real life, depending on the material.
    When was the last time you were at a live show?

    LCR recording. There is nothing more distracting or annoying than having crap that should be localized spread all over the sound stage

    Stereo drums. Ridiculous.

    Stereo piano. Annoying, and steps on everything else.

    STEREO ACOUSTIC GUITAR fer crissake! See above, and shoot 'em inna hed for even suggesting it.*

    Get out of the studio and go to a live show.



    * - unless it's a solo guitar and vocal track. In which case special techniques come into play.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  4. #24
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    I was the kind of FOH that if (even for myself only) wanted a great stereo picture painted across the stage.
  5. #25
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    In a smaller venue the band does that for themselves. In aq larger venue it's trickier, withe nearfills and long throws.

    Drums are still essentially mono. (except maybe for special effects in a drum solo.)
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  6. #26
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    When was the last time you were at a live show?

    LCR recording. There is nothing more distracting or annoying than having crap that should be localized spread all over the sound stage

    Stereo drums. Ridiculous.

    Stereo piano. Annoying, and steps on everything else.

    STEREO ACOUSTIC GUITAR fer crissake! See above, and shoot 'em inna hed for even suggesting it.*

    Get out of the studio and go to a live show.



    * - unless it's a solo guitar and vocal track. In which case special techniques come into play.
    This may come as a shock to you since you have spent many generations in sound reinforcement, But the predominant way that people listen to music is listening to recorded music.

    I've never seen most of the musicians and bands I love play live. Not only is it cheaper and easier to listen to the radio and play records, bands are often only together for a few years before they break up or someone dies in a car crash or by drug overdose.

    So you can pull your hair out when "Are You Experienced" is playing and Hendix's guitar is being panned left and right as though he were flying through the studio like Peter Pan Pot, and I'll be thinking to myself "Wow, groovy, man!"

    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  7. #27
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    When was the last time you were at a live show?

    LCR recording. There is nothing more distracting or annoying than having crap that should be localized spread all over the sound stage

    Stereo drums. Ridiculous.

    Stereo piano. Annoying, and steps on everything else.

    STEREO ACOUSTIC GUITAR fer crissake! See above, and shoot 'em inna hed for even suggesting it.*

    Get out of the studio and go to a live show.



    * - unless it's a solo guitar and vocal track. In which case special techniques come into play.
    Hey John, did you notice the bit you quoted where I wrote record?

    And, since you asked, I saw Drumbo's incarnation of The Magic Band a couple of weeks ago. They were amazing!

    So you can pull your hair out when "Are You Experienced" is playing and Hendix's guitar is being panned left and right as though he were flying through the studio like Peter Pan Pot, and I'll be thinking to myself "Wow, groovy, man!"

  8. #28
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    I was the kind of FOH that if (even for myself only) wanted a great stereo picture painted across the stage.
    That becomes annoying if you're at the front to one side.
  9. #29
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    If I'm given multitrack to mix, I usually stick to track naming, i.e. OHL goes to the left, and then build everything to that picture.
    Often times it's audience perspective. Sometimes I talk to the band if I feel strong preference to a particular image.
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  10. #30
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    That becomes annoying if you're at the front to one side.
    Yep - call me a fascist for liking a good soundstage at mix point. Fuck the audience!
  11. #31
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    Yep - call me a fascist for liking a good soundstage at mix point. Fuck the audience!


    Spoken like a true FOH guy...

    Oh wait, that would be "fuck the band!"
  12. #32
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    Yep - call me a fascist for liking a good soundstage at mix point. Fuck the audience!
    I mixed for best sound at my listening point/mixing point too. But it was because I was lonley and it was a good way to drive people back to my general area. No regrets!!

    -r
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    A person standing in front of a drum kit would, for all intents and purposes, hear the kit as a narrow sound source unless the kit is very large and you are sitting very close to it. By the way, so would the majority of live audiences in front of a PA.

    A drummer, on the other hand, would tend to have a fairly dramatic stereo image.

    I spent years working at a studio where the best spot for the drums (in my opinion) was in front of the control room glass, facing the room. Having spent a few years looking at the kit from the drummer's perspective probably got me used to panning that way.

    And yes, it still makes air drumming less awkward. Unless the drummer is a southpaw.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  14. #34
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective



    Spoken like a true FOH guy...

    Oh wait, that would be "fuck the band!"
    Everything for the band. If they play good, and I make them sound great - they see me smiling a mile wide: they put in a higher gear and the whole room is boiling. Synergy! Then - fuck the happy audience.
    Last edited by Knastratt; December 9th, 2015 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Operationalistically
  15. #35
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective


    So you can pull your hair out when "Are You Experienced" is playing and Hendix's guitar is being panned left and right as though he were flying through the studio like Peter Pan Pot, and I'll be thinking to myself "Wow, groovy, man!"

    Sure, but that was Hendrix in the late '60s and people were eating a lot more (better and stronger) acid back then.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  16. #36
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    Yep - call me a fascist for liking a good soundstage at mix point. Fuck the audience!

    In a smaller venue I always mix(ed) mono. The band itself fills in the stereo effect.

    In larger venues it depends on the system - still usually mono except for stereo FX unless the system has cross-fills on a matrix, in which case some right gets fed to the left cross-fills and vice-versa.

    The point is to deliver a good mix to as much of the audience as possible.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  17. #37
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    No - the point is still to make the soundguy happy. And most of the audience.
  18. #38
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    Default PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    I'm 40% with John. Any more a spaced pair without a mono overhead to fill it in sounds weird and gappy to me. I pan the overheads drummers perspective, just because it's what seems natural to me, but when it comes to the toms, I sort of pan them as a matter of course, but almost never hard, and I like the floor tom in the center because it's weird(to me) to have that kind of power off to one side.
    If your kit is really wide will most people give a flying shit?
    No.
    Does it matter?
    Not really.
    Does it really hurt anything?
    No.
    But that's just sorta not where I'm at, at the moment.
    I'm a fan of cheese!
  19. #39
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    Sure, but that was Hendrix in the late '60s and people were eating a lot more (better and stronger) acid back then.
    If ya can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, gramps

    What do you mean, "Hendrix in the late 1960s"? He died in 1970. The Hendrix of the late '60s is the only Hendrix most people know about.

    Anyway, "Manic Depression: Drums mono panned hard right, guitar panned left, bleed between the two. You can hear the snare responding to the guitar. Lead vocal panned hard right

    So help me, it sounds good. Must be the stronger acid
    Now it's "Love Or Confusion with the lead vocal panned hard left.

    They don't make records like that any more

    Audience or drummer's perspective seems like a rather 1st world problem compared to early stereo records. The 1st 10 years seemed pretty experimental.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  20. #40
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    Default Re: PAN - Drummers or Audience Perspective

    I don't think this would work without generous bleed (great playing and singing helps a lot):

    Drums panned hard right

    Bass guitar and bari sax, hard left

    The vocals were moved around quite a bit, but IMO to good effect. YMMV.

    I also like that it seems like it was originally meant to be faded out, but someone said, "Oh, no, we gotta keep this!"


    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle

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