Thread: Working at my drums.

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    Why are you assuming that the sound is "off center"?
    Well, because in Reno's case, it's the diagram that you quoted and responded to that clearly shows the snare and kick would not both be centered in the side mics.
  2. #22
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    Well, because in Reno's case, it's the diagram that you quoted and responded to that clearly shows the snare and kick would not both be centered in the side mics.

    And that's mixing with the eyes, not the ears.

    Reno's diagram would appear to be more "centered", with one mic on each side equidistant from the snare. However, that's not the setup shown in the pictures Weedy has posted and it's not the setup I've been using since taking Weedy's advice, which is to have one mic IN FRONT of the kit and the other on the floor tom side, the two roughly the same distance from the snare, but not necessarily exactly. That setup LOOKS like it would not be "centered" sounding but in reality sounds pretty much like a drum kit. If you haven't noticed, the rack toms on a standard kit aren't "centered" either.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    And that's mixing with the eyes, not the ears.
    No, because I'm not actually mixing anything.


    Reno's diagram would appear to be more "centered", with one mic on each side equidistant from the snare. However, that's not the setup shown in the pictures Weedy has posted and it's not the setup I've been using since taking Weedy's advice, which is to have one mic IN FRONT of the kit and the other on the floor tom side, the two roughly the same distance from the snare, but not necessarily exactly. That setup LOOKS like it would not be "centered" sounding but in reality sounds pretty much like a drum kit. If you haven't noticed, the rack toms on a standard kit aren't "centered" either.
    You've convinced me, I'm wrong...

    I was just asking otek a question, if I made some assumption that was completely off the mark while doing so, I expect he would address that if he chose to reply.
  4. #24
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    No, because I'm not actually mixing anything.



    You've convinced me, I'm wrong...
    Please, let's not get mixed up in "fog of internet" misunderstandings. And I thought this was a group discussion on a forum. If you wanted to direct it exclusively to Otek there's a PM function.

    As I read it, Otek and I are saying more or less the same things, albeit perhaps from slightly different perspectives. At least I don't see anything he's said that I disagree with of find in conflict with my point of view.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  5. #25
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    I kinda suspect that with radically spaced pairs like this, you get a different balance of attack and frequencies radiating off the drums in different directions so sometimes even if the mics are an equal distance from the snare it might not seem centred - maybe the front mic is at a higher angle and gets more low end, and maybe there's a rack tom occluding some of the snare wire snap from that mic.

    So it's always going be evaluated by what you're actually hearing through the mics, and a couple of times I've ended up with distances that you'd think would offset something but it sounded right.

    And of course, what's wrong with the snare pulling a bit to one side? Drums aren't a symmetrical instrument anyway.
  6. #26
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    My apologies guys. I had another task come up and I've been working on that.

    Just a couple of tid-bits to provide. The mics, as represented in that diagram were (by measure of the eyeball) equidistant from the snare.
    I started with them being at a 90 degree angle, one in front and one to the side of the tom. I ran into issues when trying to give the kit some width in the stereo image. The tom side was fine pushed out to the left, but the front mic had to much kick to push it out to the right.
    So that's what got me to moving things around and listening to what happened.
    Moving the "front" mic out to the snare side allowed me to get a better sound spread across the image. But the hats got really hot.
    I also had phase issues with the two mics being not at 90 degrees. So I started moving the tom side around so that it was at 180. That helped my phase issue and didn't change how things sounded on that mic to much.

    One of the things I wanted to try was making a tunnel and moving the "front" mic back out front.
    I had seen someone using a ribbon as the second kick mic, angling it so the top of the mic pointed up at the rack toms(none on mine at the moment) and the cymbals. Essentially using the natural rejection of that mics pattern to keep the bleed out. It was working pretty well.

    I was trying to get a legit drummer to come over and play the part. I thought that might tell me a lot about how the dynamics of my playing was effecting the situation. (I suspect I'm causing some of my own issues). But I've been busy with this Nickleback cover band thing and it took a back seat.

    This weekend I'll move back towards weedy's positioning and put up a tunnel. I expect I'll lose the ability to pan my kit mics L and R and maintain any balance. But maybe that's okay?
    I like pushing the ride out left and the hats out right. Should I be trying to do that with other mics? I could set up overheads and do it with that?

    Appreciate all the feedback/discussion on this. I apologize for being slow in responding.

    -r
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    My space isn't ideal. I knew that going in ... but my goals were to make the best of my space and see what I could do. That said, I ended up adding a lot of dampening. A lot on the wall that was behind me. That seemed to help control things a fair bit.
    Snare and kick mics were left alone. Kit mics went back to a 90 degree elbow, tom mic facing straight across the face of the kick beater head and front mic almost right on the hoops edge of the kick, off set to the snare side.
    I found I didn't back off my hats a lot, rather I got after my snare and kick a little more.

    Drums Only - 1 to 2 db compression on the drum bus.
    https://soundcloud.com/renopowers/song-1-drums-no-eq

    Drums Only - Heavy compression on the internal kick mic. (played with the Slate FG-Bomber. Kind of fun)
    Moderate compression on the external kick mic and kit mics.
    Light compression on the snare.
    Moderate EQ on all
    https://soundcloud.com/renopowers/song-1-drums-add-eq

    Mixed in with the rest of the little diddy for context - added a little reverb to the snare. A little more to the kit mics.
    https://soundcloud.com/renopowers/song-1-context-001

    -r
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    I started with them being at a 90 degree angle, one in front and one to the side of the tom. I ran into issues when trying to give the kit some width in the stereo image. The tom side was fine pushed out to the left, but the front mic had to much kick to push it out to the right.
    In my mind, the general idea of putting the mics at a 90 degree angle is not so much the angle itself, but the idea that the kit mics lend equal "weight" to the rack and floor toms. By putting them on either side, the rack tom will likely appear softer and more distant than the floor tom.

    One of the things I wanted to try was making a tunnel and moving the "front" mic back out front.
    This is what I suggested to you earlier. A tunnel attenuates the kick to the kit mics, and also allows you to apply eq and dynamics more freely to a "kick out" mic.

    This weekend I'll move back towards weedy's positioning and put up a tunnel. I expect I'll lose the ability to pan my kit mics L and R and maintain any balance. But maybe that's okay?
    With some experimentation, you shouldn't have to lose any balance. The example I linked earlier has the kit mics panned hard L/R. There's plenty of width, and the close mics on kick and snare helps to center those drums.


    otek
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    PS. Entirely unsolicited critique: Not sure if the "diddy" is a serious song idea, but when doing songs with lots of syncopation, try and have at least one element playing the straight subdivisions that make up said syncopations - IOW, if you have eighth-note syncopations, have something in the arrangement play straight eighth-notes. The hi-hat would be my suggestion for starters. This gives a better flow to the rhythm.

    Remember I had a similar critique on the band you posted a while back?


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  10. #30
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    Unsolicit me all you'd like, otek.
    I don't have any direction for it or anything. It was catchy enough to me that I decided to use it as a tool for playing drums, recording drums. I'm going to go back and redo the acoustic parts. They were just DI'd. I can mess with recording acoustic in my room. This song bit has really been an excuse to do something. So you're input on the composition or anything other aspect is fine by me.

    I didn't want to go try and redo the drum part (not yet at least) so I decided to try and a something that wasn't syncopated. Trying to do something that sounded okay, I ended up adding tambourine ... that was again syncopated ... but I liked it, so I left it. Then added two shaker parts, one playing quarter notes, one playing 16th notes. Its subtle and may not completely improve the overall composition but I think the end result was that there's a steady beat pushing things along.

    https://soundcloud.com/renopowers/song-1-context-001

    It's going to take me a little time to figure out, and learn to play, but I'll try to rework the drum part to have a steady hi-hat rhythm.
    My first thought is to do what I did with the shaker on the hat, replace the hat rhythm with the tambo ... and drop the shakers.

    Also, I'll keep doing this forever. So let me know when I've beat the horse to death and I need to move on.

    -r
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    I don't have any direction for it or anything. It was catchy enough to me that I decided to use it as a tool for playing drums, recording drums.
    Then it is perhaps appropriate that we might also use it as a platform for building effective rhythms

    I'm going to go back and redo the acoustic parts. They were just DI'd. I can mess with recording acoustic in my room. This song bit has really been an excuse to do something. So you're input on the composition or anything other aspect is fine by me.

    I didn't want to go try and redo the drum part (not yet at least)
    Then, might I suggest you record the guitars to a click (or even better, a programmed beat), and add the drums later. It's not the optimal way, as adding drums after the fact is generally a scary proposition to all but a select few drummers I know, but at least it allows you to experiment with adding things and taking them away.

    so I decided to try and a something that wasn't syncopated. Trying to do something that sounded okay, I ended up adding tambourine ... that was again syncopated ... but I liked it, so I left it. Then added two shaker parts, one playing quarter notes, one playing 16th notes.
    ...It's going to take me a little time to figure out, and learn to play, but I'll try to rework the drum part to have a steady hi-hat rhythm.
    ...My first thought is to do what I did with the shaker on the hat, replace the hat rhythm with the tambo ... and drop the shakers.
    The quarter note shaker is precisely what I meant for the hihat - that, or because the tempo is on the slow side, a pattern with straight eighth- or 16th-notes.

    Its subtle and may not completely improve the overall composition but I think the end result was that there's a steady beat pushing things along.
    The overall composition is still kind of amorphous and will emerge as you add melody.

    At this point, three percussion instruments is overkill. Try to keep it simple until you have a form and a drum beat that stands on its own. Learn the drum beat with that hihat rhythm, then perhaps add a muted, picked single-string guitar doing 16th notes, la Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall".

    Perhaps something like this:

    RenoBeat.wav

    The snippet has two different versions of beats, one with quarter-note hihat, and one with 16th notes. I did add a shaker for shits and giggles. Note also that the kick is playing the third beat of the bar, to solidify the syncopations.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  12. #32
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    Default Re: Working at my drums.

    Then, might I suggest you record the guitars to a click (or even better, a programmed beat), and add the drums later. It's not the optimal way, as adding drums after the fact is generally a scary proposition to all but a select few drummers I know, but at least it allows you to experiment with adding things and taking them away.
    I recorded this bass-ackwards from the get go. Tearing it down and building it back up isn't something I'm trying to avoid.
    However, focusing on the drums/rhythm until I'm ready to move to another part is probably the better path. I can go back and redo the guitars after I've put some effort towards this issue. I don't need to jump around from thing to thing.
    ...yes, I always want to do/know all of the things right now. So I have to slow down and focus myself sometimes.

    The overall composition is still kind of amorphous and will emerge as you add melody.
    This is maybe one of the most creative things I've ever done... I don't know that I have anything better in me?!?! My dreams are crushed!


    At this point, three percussion instruments is overkill. Try to keep it simple until you have a form and a drum beat that stands on its own. Learn the drum beat with that hihat rhythm, then perhaps add a muted, picked single-string guitar doing 16th notes, la Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall".

    The snippet has two different versions of beats, one with quarter-note hihat, and one with 16th notes. I did add a shaker for shits and giggles. Note also that the kick is playing the third beat of the bar, to solidify the syncopations.
    Noted. I'll work on it over the weekend and see where I get.

    Thanks!

    -r
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