Thread: Reverberation-ing

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    I'm not talking about mouse-clicking vs. faders and knobs. You can use faders and knobs to write automation. It's not a purely live performance, but it's nice to be able to overdub and punch-in fader-riding and knob-twiddling, or even do some mouse-clicking for fine detail.
    Yes, you're correct, but if your console automation system is SMPTE based the timing is not totally precise, as it's "frame" based.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    Yes, you're correct, but if your console automation system is SMPTE based the timing is not totally precise, as it's "frame" based.
    Ah, I wouldn't know anything about that, as I've never used a console.
  3. #23
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    Yes, you're correct, but if your console automation system is SMPTE based the timing is not totally precise, as it's "frame" based.
    I doubt it is possible to move a fader faster than 20+Hz.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    A specific effect I hear and haven't dove into figuring out is when an echo or reverb will start on one side of the sound stage and finish on the other. Or where the echo is only heard on the opposite side of the instrument/vocal.
    A lot of times, it's actually part and parcel of the reverb sound itself. If you set a longish predelay time, use a mono reverb and pan it to the opposite side, the sound will appear to travel from one side to the other. The same thing with a stereo delay set to eighth notes on one side, and quarter notes on the other.

    As for what you might see in my mixes in terms of reverb, it's usually one short and one long verb for starters. They may be algorithmic or convolution-based, depending on the sound I'm after. Then, there may also be a non-linear, bright/short one for drums, such as the AMS RMX IR's, and sometimes an intermediate-length reverb. There are often other reverbs used for special effects that may appear once or twice, but I typically put those as inserts, or bounce them out as audio files. I also EQ my reverbs a lot, often using very shallow high-pass filters to get rid of mud, and sometimes boosting a certain part of the midrange for some character.

    Another thing is that I often use a longer reverb in a "dry-sounding" mix - I just use a whole lot less of it. Brought up on certain things so that you can barely hear it, it seems to work as a kind of "glue".


    otek
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    The narrow focus of my post was this particular song, “Likes of Me by Hardy & the Hard knocks”.
    I notice there were 3 distinct types of reverb being used. On paper I think it would seem like they’d conflict or create confusion about the space the music is being performed in, but they don’t.
    There’s a slapback echo happening on the drums that made me think, okay this guy is playing at the bottom of a drained swimming pool. Then there’s no reverb on the heavy guitar, panned right. It sounds next to me, very present. And then the lead guitar on the left is definitely being recorded in the shitter. I can almost hear toilets flushing in the background. None of those create or represent a similar space, so why doesn’t it make the whole song sound disjointed?
    The lead vocal is the main drag, to me. Too wet and too buried. YMMV

    It seems like they were trying to sound like Nirvana's "Never Mind" and fell way short.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    I also EQ my reverbs a lot, often using very shallow high-pass filters to get rid of mud, and sometimes boosting a certain part of the midrange for some character.
    Interesting, because... doesn't actual organic reverb tend to act somewhat as a low pass filter
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    A lot of times, it's actually part and parcel of the reverb sound itself. If you set a longish predelay time, use a mono reverb and pan it to the opposite side, the sound will appear to travel from one side to the other. The same thing with a stereo delay set to eighth notes on one side, and quarter notes on the other.

    As for what you might see in my mixes in terms of reverb, it's usually one short and one long verb for starters. They may be algorithmic or convolution-based, depending on the sound I'm after. Then, there may also be a non-linear, bright/short one for drums, such as the AMS RMX IR's, and sometimes an intermediate-length reverb. There are often other reverbs used for special effects that may appear once or twice, but I typically put those as inserts, or bounce them out as audio files. I also EQ my reverbs a lot, often using very shallow high-pass filters to get rid of mud, and sometimes boosting a certain part of the midrange for some character.

    Another thing is that I often use a longer reverb in a "dry-sounding" mix - I just use a whole lot less of it. Brought up on certain things so that you can barely hear it, it seems to work as a kind of "glue".


    otek
    But then in electronic music (ambient or EDM or whatever), you'll often hear each part having its own distinct space, or lack thereof. Which brings us back to John's salient point about spring reverbs in amps and cultural conditioning to aural expectation.
  8. #28
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    Interesting, because... doesn't actual organic reverb tend to act somewhat as a low pass filter
    You mean, as in the high frequencies in natural rooms have a way of decaying faster? Sure, that's been my experience as well. However, with a lot of the convolution reverbs out there, there is a preponderance of rumbly low end. I just act upon my listening impression of the digital reverbs I'm using. If I had a real chamber, things might obviously be different. Or not.

    But then in electronic music (ambient or EDM or whatever), you'll often hear each part having its own distinct space, or lack thereof. Which brings us back to John's salient point about spring reverbs in amps and cultural conditioning to aural expectation.
    Perhaps - I'm not sure it's a genre thing though. And I don't see my reverb setup as having any intrinsic sonic bias (other than the fact that I typically don't use a whole lot of different ones). Also, in my experience, I don't consider reverbs to be the sole defining factor in creating distinct spaces - you can have a bone dry mix, and things still appear quite separated, particularly when you're talking about styles such as EDM where sound sources are predominantly synthetic or sampled. E.g. Kraftwerk's masterful Autobahn album doesn't appear to use a lot of different reverbs, yet the sounds are beautifully separated and distinct.


    otek
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    Perhaps - I'm not sure it's a genre thing though. And I don't see my reverb setup as having any intrinsic sonic bias (other than the fact that I typically don't use a whole lot of different ones). Also, in my experience, I don't consider reverbs to be the sole defining factor in creating distinct spaces - you can have a bone dry mix, and things still appear quite separated, particularly when you're talking about styles such as EDM where sound sources are predominantly synthetic or sampled. E.g. Kraftwerk's masterful Autobahn album doesn't appear to use a lot of different reverbs, yet the sounds are beautifully separated and distinct.


    otek
    Very true, good point.
  10. #30
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    You mean, as in the high frequencies in natural rooms have a way of decaying faster? Sure, that's been my experience as well. However, with a lot of the convolution reverbs out there, there is a preponderance of rumbly low end. I just act upon my listening impression of the digital reverbs I'm using. If I had a real chamber, things might obviously be different. Or not.
    I see. What would be the advantage in using convolution over algorithmic or vice versa?
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    I see. What would be the advantage in using convolution over algorithmic or vice versa?
    For me, it's typically the control possibilities that determines my choice, particularly when it comes to decay time in different frequency bands. Decay is different from EQ because it's about reflectivity, which is a more complex quality than tonality. If I simply want the reverb brighter, I can EQ it. If I want it to have more high-frequency decay, say, I have to alter decay times. Algorithmic reverbs offer me a lot more options in this regard.

    Sometimes, however, the general tonality of a certain reverb program can be very characteristic, such as for example a sound modeled on an actual building or hardware unit. In those cases, convolution reverb is obviously the way to go. One such example is the AMS RMX non-linear programs I often use on drums. I can probably come reasonably close with a good algorithmic program (which is what the AMS hardware unit is, to begin with), but that specific character can be almost impossible to get, because it involves things like input and output stage behavior, and sample rate.


    otek
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    This isn't directly related to any specific technique, but sometime sit down with a pair of phones and a good copy of "Purple Rain" and try to count all the different instances of delay based effects in that mix.

    Oh, and the only hard and fast rule about reverb is that there are no hard and fast rules.

    One of my favorite tricky reverb things is the one Tony Visconti (IIRC) used on David Bowie's "Heroes". It's all natural room reverb, but it's a very unique application. They were recording in one of the really big live rooms designed for orchestras and he got the idea that in addition to the main vocal mic he'd set up stereo pairs at intervals down the room, each pair on a gate. Bowie starts the song singing quite softly, and none of the room mics are active, as the gates are closed. As he builds the vocal the gates progressively open - first the closest pair, then the next comes in, then the next, for however many pairs were used. The result is that the song goes from a very intimate vocal to the huge, triumphant sound at the end.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    I had Åke Eldsäter as a teacher in recording in 1983*. He was one of 10 world class engineers who'd meet in a Nevada whorehouse and discuss the future of recording over a few pints of Scotch and, well, women - I'd guess. He was sort of obsessed by getting the perfect vocal sound.

    He showed me a drawing of an absorbing baffel(?) with a hole in it to accomodate the face (and keeping it equidistant from the mic) with another absorber at a feet distance to have a PZM mic in front of it. The guy was a raving luny - totally committed to the quest for the perfect sound - but not at letting the performer be in a comfort zone. I told him to try with a box instead strapped to the head making it possible for the singer to move around, and for a second - he actually considered it.

    So what is my point? Well, the g
  14. #34
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    So what is my point? Well, the g
    Good point!
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    I told him to try with a box instead strapped to the head making it possible for the singer to move around, and for a second - he actually considered it.
    For a second I got an image of a stage outfit for The Residents.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  16. #36
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    For a second I got an image of a stage outfit for The Residents.


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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    The G

    What an awesome band name. Can I have it?
  18. #38
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    The G

    What an awesome band name. Can I have it?
    Of cou
  19. #39
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    Broadband access is intermittent here. Must be the cold.

    ot
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Reverberation-ing

    No - There's something wrong with my brai

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