1. #21
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 961
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    It is with a certain small amusement that I'm now seeing threads pop up at the Purple Place with titles like "Suggestions for Small Tube Amp? (Goodbye Kemper!)"
    Yeah, I like things that do one thing well.

    It reminds me of this quote I saw recently:

    "The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates “more options” with “greater freedom.” Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: “How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?”

    In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

    Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can’t ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one’s mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment.

    With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users – when given a choice – prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can’t have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else.”

    http://www.horizontalpitch.com/2015/...ssibilities-2/
  2. #22
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,545
    Rep Power 536871422

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Having a tool that does one thing well makes using it more intuitive. It takes a shorter time for its use to become second nature, like an extension of your mind/ body. Like if you drive a manual transmission car, it doesn't take you long to get to the point where you look at the terrain, the speed you want to go, and you shift into the proper gear without thinking about it consciously.

    But digital software means being all things to all people, because you can, because the competition is doing it and because customers, for the most part, have come to expect it.

    I'd like to segue into DAWs, but first I'll go in a different direction.

    Even in the analog realm, excessive choice can lead to "paralysis by analysis" or endless tail-chasing.

    I have 10 working electric guitars here at nobby road, no two of which sound alike.

    Fortunately a few of my guitar amps are in need of repair, so that limits my choices. Even so, I could set aside a day for guitar-amp pairings and not get anything really accomplished.

    But at least that's fun.

    In the case of a DAW, we expect it to do things that are difficult or impossible in the analog domain.

    Some things will make your workflow quicker, once you've spent the hours needed to learn to use them quickly.

    Most things will probably be superfluous to any individual user.

    I use Sonar. They stopped printing the manual years ago, because it was only a couple of hundred pages and therefore didn't scratch the surface. Software companies avoid shipping anything physical if possible, anyway. Everything is a download.

    Imagine you're in a studio. Theres a LFC, say 64 channels. You've got levels, you're ready to start recording.

    Suddenly the console disappears

    Fortunately, this isn't Air Studios and there aren't any clients.

    After spending a half hour online doing research, going down many dead ends due to search engines leading you to problems that are similar but different enough to be completely irrelevant, it turns out that I must have accidentally hit a "hotkey" that dozens of prople knew about, because they worked on the software or hung out with someone who did.

    Ya can't RTFM when, for all intents and purposes, there is no FM.

    With an analog console, the same console gets used for decades. With a DAW, you have to be able to make it different sizes, make the individual channels different colors, be able to instantly hang it on the ceiling or shove it into another room while you look at waveforms Then, when I get an upgrade, the UI is completely different and it takes me half an hour to get it to work the way I was accustomed. Talk about a fucking vibe kill.

    Imagine an analog studio in which everything was suddenly rearranged by someone else, completely different layout.

    For me, being able to work intuitively means being able to get familiar with the layout of things so I don't have to think about them and can focus on the music, the sound.

    I can't imagine running a DAW with eyes shut (not with a mouse, anyway ) but in my case I had to fall down a few rabbit holes on the way to getting anywhere near "intuitive".
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  3. #23
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    I'm the kind of guy with one guitar and a total need of three sounds. Clean, dist lead and powerchording (with smaller variations according to the songs). My Eleven gives me 85% of the sound I need at a size that makes it truly portable. Do I miss my boutique amps? Yep! Do I miss them to the point I'm gonna get them again? No. I need to travel lite. Maybe a Zvex micro amp would be fun. And buy a cabinet on location.

    Am I gonna go for the next stage - a Kemper? No - I'm content with Eleven. I know the Kemper is better, still...
  4. #24
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 961
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    I'm the kind of guy with one guitar and a total need of three sounds. Clean, dist lead and powerchording (with smaller variations according to the songs). My Eleven gives me 85% of the sound I need at a size that makes it truly portable. Do I miss my boutique amps? Yep! Do I miss them to the point I'm gonna get them again? No. I need to travel lite. Maybe a Zvex micro amp would be fun. And buy a cabinet on location.

    Am I gonna go for the next stage - a Kemper? No - I'm content with Eleven. I know the Kemper is better, still...
    When I play gigs, I have one sound. Any changes are from playing technique, pickup selection, volume and tone knobs.
  5. #25
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    When I play gigs, I have one sound. Any changes are from playing technique, pickup selection, volume and tone knobs.
    I guess I could abandon laziness and get there too.
  6. #26
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,545
    Rep Power 536871422

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    When I play gigs, I have one sound. Any changes are from playing technique, pickup selection, volume and tone knobs.
    Of course. Studio techniques often don't work on stage.

    Imagine spending an hour on stage deciding which snare drum to use for a song
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  7. #27
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Ciderland, UK
    Posts 961
    Rep Power 536870991

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Of course. Studio techniques often don't work on stage.

    Imagine spending an hour on stage deciding which snare drum to use for a song
    Or changing bass drum and toms for every key change
  8. #28
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Or changing bass drum and toms for every key change
    It has to be a revolving set of kick drums, and a... *thud*
  9. #29
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Sweden
    Posts 14,273
    Rep Power 536871513

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    I recall earlier in the thread when someone mentioned how they're rarely lugging around a real grand piano anymore, and choose the digital piano even though it sounds "worse" (as an aside, I recall Chick Corea, on the late-80s Eye of The Behold tour, actually brought a Yamaha grand which, including the road case, weighed close to 1,000 lbs. His road crew must have loved him.). I'm not so sure about "worse" in every case.

    I think convenience, portability and repeatability do govern these choices to a large extent, but I think it also has a lot to do with the translation to the PA system, with all the associated drawbacks. A grand piano won't sound much like a grand piano through a PA anyway, and the "translation loss" of having to use a microphone system, dealing with things like feedback problems and still make the thing sound worth a damn coming out of large speakers may, in fact, take a heavier toll on the end result - especially given how good some of the best sampled pianos have come to sound. I will definitely go with the acoustic grand in a studio situation, but live, I can definitely see how a sampled piano might translate better.

    Another good example is digital modeling for acoustic guitar, where you can apply modeling to a piezo-electric system (which is an almost inevitable compromise on a rock stage) on a regular acoustic guitar, to make the end result sound more life-like. It's not going to fool an experienced engineer in a studio situation, but compared to the typical piezo sound through a PA? I rest my case.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  10. #30
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    I guess I could abandon laziness and get there too.
    But still, then - I have my Eleven.
  11. #31
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,128
    Rep Power 536871375

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    What amuses me is people thinking that gear instead of woodshedding can give them the sound of a great guitarist's touch.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  12. #32
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    What amuses me is people thinking that gear instead of woodshedding can give them the sound of a great guitarist's touch.
    Damn. I'm fucked.
  13. #33
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Sweden
    Posts 14,273
    Rep Power 536871513

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    What amuses me is people thinking that gear instead of woodshedding can give them the sound of a great guitarist's touch.
    Reminds me of a story from the 90s - I had this Laney combo with which I couldn't make a decent noise to save my life. The tone was dreadful.

    I was doing sound at a music festival when suddenly, one of the amps in the rental backline croaked, minutes before the show. After a short deliberation, we put the Laney combo up there, simply because we had no choice. Next on stage was, among others, Swedish guitarist Janne Bark, who then proceeded to play the gig hooked up to my crappy Laney - with incredible tone.



    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  14. #34
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Apr 2008
    Location Montreal, Canada
    Posts 714
    Rep Power 536871044

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Well, that we can't argue against. Hands first, gear second. Modeling units are not except from this phenomena. We just need to look at a given thread for a given modeling unit in some public forum, and read the amount of times people post something along the lines of "the presets suck". It always makes me laugh that people will spin presets on a product to get an idea of how good it is. To me, presets are meant to do one thing only... showcase what you can do with the unit. Second, whoever programmed them, was definitely using NOT your guitar, NOT in your room, and NOT through your amp.
    Anyway... leaving that subject alone (because I know very well where that road goes), I now wonder who here has recorded modeling units and how did it go for you, especially if you had the option of using an analog setup? Let's say the guitar player arrives with his UltraAmpOrgasmofier 3000 and a few patches he uses a lot, and you actually find them good in the context of the song. Take, or leave? Propose some analog amps? Audition? I'm assuming anyone who knows what he/she's doing would leave it alone (if the tones work, the songs benefit from them, and the guitar player is happy with them), but still... would like to hear some experiences.
    Also... if you've ever found yourself in a situation where an analog setup was involved, but the results were so that you opted to use a modeling unit to record instead.

    Keep 'em coming!
  15. #35
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871251

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    I know there is a session guitarist in LA who travels to studio gigs with only a Gatorcased Eleven and his guitar. Can't remember who he is. So in the hands of a great tone - it is obviously not a deal breaker.
  16. #36
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Easter Island
    Posts 2,353
    Rep Power 536871116

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    How you gonna find your own voice over the deafening roar of the interNot?

    Yer not.

    Back in the day the unavailability, ignorance, and isolation, could act as a strength, an ADVANTAGE, that happened as an inevitable outgrowth of the chase for instrument command.

    Now?


    We're fucked.

    For now.

    Fucked.


    SM.
    Kill me. No really. Just fucking kill me.
  17. #37
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Songwriter Gulch
    Posts 10,128
    Rep Power 536871375

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Too many posers...
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
    Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233
    Interview
    Artists are the gatekeepers of truth!- Paul Robeson
  18. #38
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,545
    Rep Power 536871422

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    What amuses me is people thinking that gear instead of woodshedding can give them the sound of a great guitarist's touch.
    Unless you're using extreme amounts of distortion to the point that you're obliterating every nuance of your playing, the best amplifiers flatter the sound a little bit while amplifying it a lot. Meaning it amplifies the mistakes and crappy technique as well as good playing. That's why when you look for vids of amps on youtube you find people making cringe-worthy sounds with great amps.

    Which makes great amps good for practicing. You want to hear your mistakes and problems in your technique and be rewarded with great sound when you do something right
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  19. #39
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,750
    Rep Power 536871394

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Unless you're using extreme amounts of distortion to the point that you're obliterating every nuance of your playing, the best amplifiers flatter the sound a little bit while amplifying it a lot. Meaning it amplifies the mistakes and crappy technique as well as good playing. That's why when you look for vids of amps on youtube you find people making cringe-worthy sounds with great amps.

    Which makes great amps good for practicing. You want to hear your mistakes and problems in your technique and be rewarded with great sound when you do something right
    Probably a big reason why so many wannabes are so in love with crappy amp sims these days. (Which is not necessarily a criticism of the actual hardware platform the sim is running on.)
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  20. #40
    Surfing the net at work every day! Waterbrother
    Join Date May 2009
    Posts 314
    Rep Power 536871017

    Default Re: When aspiration drives standardization... (or, when does a sound become the standard?)

    Modellers should embrace vertical, instead of horizontal depth.

    You don't see throngs of bassists getting rid of their old Sansamps when Tech-21 rolls a new model off the assembly line, do you?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts